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ThingCandid9553@reddit

Gypsies have been plagiarizing music for decades or even centuries.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

Tell this to my ancestors, who were slaves in Wallachia, lăutari, and who had a privilege: to play music because they were talented, and because you liked them playing your music in their own way

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

Lautaris went to Kosovo? in wich century?

Never heard that.

https://www.academia.edu/24936295/Roma_Muslims_in_the_Balkans

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

Why do you think I'm lying?

Some Roma from Kosovo descend from groups that came from Wallachia, as has been shown by ethnologists and linguists. The Roma of the Balkans are divided into two main linguistic groups: Balkan Romani and Vlax Romani

I am part of the Gurbeti clan on my father’s side, which speaks a Vlax Romani dialect. The dates of migration remain unclear, but many link them to slavery in Wallachia and Moldavia. This migration is generally considered ancient among the Gurbet Roma, but it remains debated due to the lack of early historical evidence.

Ottoman mention this clan as early as the 17th century and also refer to this group speaking Gurbetcha, a romani vlax dialect influenced by Cypriot Turkish and by Domari. These clan-based groups spoke Cypriot Turkish fluently and are said to have returned to Ottoman Rumelia in the 17th century after passing through Cyprus. It is therefore possible that there were several waves of migration.

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

I didn't say you were lying. I was just surprised because I always thought the Lautari were a Rudari-Boyash group.

There was also a Roma family (Rudari) on Ada Kaleh who also came from Wallachia, but they were only called Turciti because the Muslims arrived on the island in the 19th century.

Very interesting, thank you for the information.

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Vlax Roma are all related to each other. Clans appeared later; they have not always existed, and in general, a child must primarily represent the father’s clan/subgroup. Why did you think that the Lăutari were Rudari

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

I read this about y-dna in vlax roma

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/paternal-genetic-history-vlax-roma

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

I am H-Z5875

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

So you belong to the founder lineage, great.

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/Balkans/comments/1siyrza/atlantis_of_danubeada_kaleh/#lightbox Look, what would you say? I've colorized some old photos of Ada Kaleh (the island was flooded in 1970).

Look at the men on the football team, what do you think? They're Turkish Roma, right?

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

I read that somewhere, although the Rudari themselves say they are not Roma.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

Yes, they are like the Ashkali… On this point, I have family members who are married to Ashkali people who have accepted the truth, but that’s not the case for everyone. They were influenced by their elders in order to protect themselves during the war.

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

ha yes i heard about the Ashkali and Balkan Egyptians from Kosovo

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Dear-Ad1582@reddit

We don't care! Slavery ended 200 years ago.. Romanian don't care about it because status of romanians was not that different. Look up what iobagi, șeebs, rumân mean... Yes gipsy were slaves, but they were owned by Orthodox Church, by ruler, and boyars families. Guess who owned the land to which romanian peasants were tied and sold with...

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OnTheLambDude@reddit

LMFAO 🤣 what else did your ancestors lie to you about 😂

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

Lying about a historical fact. You know who the lăutari were in the vast majority, and you are pretending not to understand ?

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QuietWaterBreaksRock@reddit

That middle flag and calling upon historical facts usually ends up in an oxymoron

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

Some Roma from Kosovo descend from groups that came from Wallachia, as has been shown by ethnologists and linguists. The Roma of the Balkans are divided into two main linguistic groups: Balkan Romani and Vlax Romani

I am part of the Gurbeti clan on my father’s side, which speaks a Vlax Romani dialect. The dates of migration remain unclear, but many link them to slavery in Wallachia and Moldavia. This migration is generally considered ancient among the Gurbet Roma, but it remains debated due to the lack of early historical evidence.

Ottoman mention this clan as early as the 17th century and also refer to this group speaking Gurbetcha, a romani vlax dialect influenced by Cypriot Turkish and by Domari. These clan-based groups spoke Cypriot Turkish fluently and are said to have returned to Ottoman Rumelia in the 17th century after passing through Cyprus. It is therefore possible that there were several waves of migration.

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Stealthfighter21@reddit

They would never!

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TwoFistsOneVi@reddit

Let me get my fucking delorean out of the garage and drive 88 miles per hour under 1.2 jiggawatts and I will personally share the message with your ancestors

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ThingCandid9553@reddit

I’ll pass it on next time I take my time machine for a spin.

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Special-Transition77@reddit

Don't know about Roma in Romania, but the Roma in Macedonia tend to be quite musically talented

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43282348@reddit

They are definitely musically talented in Romania as well, but still what he said is not incorrect either, especially when it comes to manele/chalga/whatever you wanna call it.

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

There are so many different Roma groups in Romania.

Look:

https://discoveromania.ro/?page_id=3400

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Sp1r1T_1986@reddit

Sounds nothing like it.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

It's literally the same refrain! Here, in better quality

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Sp1r1T_1986@reddit

gif

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

Oh i see cringe gadjo

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Attack_na_battak@reddit

O, let's talk about stealing....

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

Ok, what do you think about stealing to survive?

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S-onceto@reddit

This song is very nice but sounds completely different to Ederlezi.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

It's literally the same refrain! Here, in better quality

The most blatant plagiarism is not only in the chorus and its melody, but also in the omission of crediting the main contributors to this work namely the Romani people themselves, as well as their folk culture and artists.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

This is why I am only talking about the melody. Fejat Sejdić and his group, as well as Vaska Jankovska, made the difference by adding existing Romani cultural elements from their own tradition. Because of this, Goran partly took credit for the merit.

I cannot say he plagiarised the whole song, because in my view his work was not decisive, especially since he reworks and rearranges Romani melodies in his own way, which were then used by the artists.

However, I can say there was a form of Romani melodic plagiarism (which is not protected by copyright since the author of the melody is deceased): this melody served as the basis for the arrangements of the song performed with Fejat Sejdić and his group, as well as Vaska Jankovska.

It is also worth noting that he used this same melody in a Serbo-Croatian version where he credited the group Bijelo Dugme without any issue, even though he did not work with them in the Romani version linked to this same melody.

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MammothTrifle3616@reddit

Bregović has been accused of plagiarism? I am shocked, shocked I say

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Jermajestyandtony@reddit

The version of ederlezi sung by vaska jankovska is so beautiful and haunting to me.

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sjedinjenoStanje@reddit

I lived in Poland when "Kayah i Bregović" was the best-selling album (1999) - the melodies remained the same but the lyrics were totally different. I have a preference for Vaska's version too, but Kayah's is not bad at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcXtIvALGFg

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Whole_Obligation_776@reddit

It is one of these movies I can never rewatch.

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slight_digression@reddit

Yep, Emir makes great movies. Difficult, but also worthwhile to watch.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

She is the official singer of this song; the Romani language is very beautiful when sung with nostalgia and emotion

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Substratas@reddit

I don’t quite understand why people in this sub keep downvoting your comments for no f**king reason.

gif

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Jermajestyandtony@reddit

I love her and Esma and Usnija ♥️

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QuietWaterBreaksRock@reddit

Traditional music isn't copyrightable,, especially not in Balkans

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Gloomy-Statement-193@reddit

ex-yu - what the hell is copyright?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=zbogom+kalifornijo

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QuietWaterBreaksRock@reddit

I see you that (and thanks, first time i've heard it looool)

And I raise you: https://youtu.be/5uG-XSy0fbM (Zorana's song came out in January of 1986, the other one, end of that same February...

Also speaking of this whole theme of song stealing: https://youtu.be/FrAYWiW-BCg

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Gloomy-Statement-193@reddit

I know both songs

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haroldstree@reddit

Exactly. However it's important to note, as a musician who record and arrange it you still have some copyrights for yourself. If you make it unique and arrange a traditional tune as your own, your own version has copyright. You also have mechanical & performing rights to the recordings you do, say for example if a professional band plays your version of that traditional song, or a documentary/film uses your version of the song.

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QuietWaterBreaksRock@reddit

Thanks for clarification!

Also, check this out, I think you'll enjoy it, a song parodying this whole theme of song stealing :D

https://youtu.be/FrAYWiW-BCg

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Big-Waltz5204@reddit

This doesn't sound like anything.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

Okay, listen to this now :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9HnViGcLDU

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haroldstree@reddit

As a musician, music theory student and an advocate of music rights I don't see any plagiarism at all. Is it gypsy music? Yes, absolutely. If Goran Bregovic claimed it was something else then there could have been a case to be sued. Claiming his Ederlezi is plagiarism of this song is a dangerous road to tread on. You cannot copyright diatonic thirds above the melody as your own, the melody and chord progressions do not resemble a similarity. I don't know for certain but Ederlezi is also sang as Djurdjevan and it is possibly an anonymous song that Goran picked up and arranged. If you arrange an anonymous song, or someone else's composition who died more than 70 years ago it is transformed as your own composition, but he still cannot claim the original as his own.

I suggest you guys watch The Lion's Share documentary on Netflix. It is not a parallel to this in any shape of form but it's good for awareness for copyright issues.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

Taking full credit for a song is plagiarism. Why do you think the Roma artists who wrote, sang, and performed the Ederlezi songs would make such claims?

Presenting someone else’s work or ideas as one’s own, with or without the original author’s permission, and incorporating them into one’s work without citing the source, is plagiarism.

You should do more research. The melody is not his. If you listen to Ederlezi’s lyrics, you will notice that in the song, “Sa o Roma” is repeated 23 times. The music is literally built around a long euphony of “Sa o Roma” (meaning “all Roma”), which is also found in the 1966 version of the melody.

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haroldstree@reddit

What's with the attitude? Did you read what I wrote? The melody doesn't have to be his. He composed his own version of an anonymous tune. His version make it "his". Are gypsy musicians compelled to pay him money to play their own folk tunes for Ederlezi? If No, then there's no problem and no plagiarism or ill intent. If yes, then there's a case. But, if other musicians are playing his own version of Ederlezi, then the law is for him to get royalties.

No need to get emotional on me or any of us.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

The Roma are not identified as the source of this musical heritage that served as the main basis for the work, nor as the source of the melody used. And I never said that he completely plagiarized the 1966 and after 1985 song, but that he took the main melody, which served as the foundation for building his arrangement, using already existing Roma elements, notably from Vaska Jankovska and the orchestra of Fejat Sejdić. Maybe this was not clearly understood in my words.

If I bring this up, it is mainly because he never credited the sources, whether the singer or the orchestra, even though this was originally intended by those people.

The Roma did not fully gain access or a full understanding of copyright and attribution issues until quite late, due to important social and economic difficulties.

Even in a strong cultural representation like Ederlezi (not necessarily the music itself), the Roma spring festival, some forms may go back to a period before their arrival in the Balkans, particularly in Anatolia, if we refer to the Roma communities in Turkey who remained in Asia Minor before the Ottoman expansion and who also celebrate Ederlezi/Kakava.

In this context, Goran Bregović has never worked for Roma culture, but rather for profit and personal international recognition, by appropriating elements of Roma culture without clearly crediting them. You are a strong defender of music rights, but you should understand that not all peoples have the same access to knowledge and understanding of attribution rights.

I don't know for certain but Ederlezi is also sang as Djurdjevan and it is possibly an anonymous song that Goran picked up and arranged

Djurdjevan was released after ‘Ederlezi’. When ‘Ederlezi’ became popular, Goran Bregović quickly made a Serbo-Croatian version, which he had performed with the band he founded, Bijelo Dugme, which was credited for it.

Djurdjevan is a religious holiday, unlike ‘Ederlezi’, which is not really linked to a religion but is rather a spring festival associated with nature, flowers, fire, lakes, and renewal. Even though some Christian Roma associate it with the same type of celebration as Djurdjevan, this is not the case among Muslim Roma.

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haroldstree@reddit

You don't need to lecture me on balkan folk tunes. I wrote the most bare-bones of how copyrights work. Goran Bregovic is not Roma, and doesn't have to care much for Roma people or their music. As a professional musician, damn right he's gonna work for his own personal international recognition and financial gain. In my opinion, Ederlezi became more famous than it could have due to his arrangement, which all the more works for Roma music recognition. You just seem hurt that his version of Ederlezi is doing better than other Roma musician's versions.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

No, I'm not at all hurt that earlier versions of "Ederlezi" didn't work, because those earlier versions were never intended for the legendary river scene. He had to hire Roma musicians for their incredible talent and unique folklore; without them, he's incapable of having a proper career and shining. I don't know what kind of human garbage you are to invent a life for yourself as a music theory student and music rights advocate.

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haroldstree@reddit

I don't know what kind of a hole you live in but have you even seen the spotify list of the song? The credit still goes to Vaska Jankovska, who is a singer with Roma background. The joke's on me to take you seriously. If you think hurling insults gets your ethnicity or Roma music positive recognition you have all your life to try.

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Big-Waltz5204@reddit

Could be inspiration for Ederlezi, wouldn't call it plagiarism. It's bit similar in first part of chorus but nowhere close to being same song. But yeah pretty sure Bregović isn't hiding that he takes lot of inspiration from Roma people.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

It’s logical that it’s not the same thing: it is simply a Romani version from the Balkans, sung and performed by Roma from the Balkans, whose lyrics already partly existed in the work of Šaban Bajramović.

Goran took credit for creating the orchestral arrangement of this version, as if he were the sole creator of this music. He never admitted that the melody already existed within Romani traditions. He also told some journalists that he was inspired by an old Albanian song, without ever citing the source.

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

Muharrem Serbesovski also hand sung this but djurdjevan but melody was similar.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

Yes, I know, it’s the Serbo-Croatian version that came out after the Romani one.

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

But listen the song is also in Romani isnt it? I guess its Arli dialect?

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OnTheLambDude@reddit

Bro hopped on the Balkan sub talking about “erhmmm actually it’s the Europeans who steal from the gypsies 🤓” LMFAOOOOOO 🤣🤣👌

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ichbinverruckt@reddit

Exactly.

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Gloomy-Statement-193@reddit

He never stopped doing it, right now he hired bunch of Romani musicians as his servants and he takes music from them.

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kerelberel@reddit

The melody is probably even older

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

There are two theories on this subject: either an origin linked to the Ottoman Turks, or an origin passing through Anatolia and Mesopotamia.

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577564842@reddit

bolje da liči na nešto nego da ne liči ni na šta

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

Very funny the music isn’t of good quality. They were recorded in a theatre in Russia, during the USSR era, one of the biggest for Roma culture. That’s not what a Slovenian would do. Do you prefer supporting the so-called Šutar lmao rigth ?

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577564842@reddit

Very funny the music isn’t of good quality. They were recorded in a theatre in Russia, during the USSR era, one of the biggest for Roma culture. That’s not what a Slovenian would do.

???

He didn’t even do the main work done by Vaska Jankovska and Fejat Sejdić’s orchestra, nor by Fejat himself

Why should he?

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raxatlis@reddit

Stealing from gypsies is kinda funny.

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Sea_Practice_1557@reddit

Goran Bregovic is famous for plagirasing. He even plagiraised his own song

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SatanistKesenKedi100@reddit

Plagiarism is extremely common in Turkey. Our supposed great singers stole some songs from Levent and Balkan regions. I don't know about other nations but I wouldn't surprised in any case.

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Equal_Beat3778@reddit

I saw a documentary at a film festival, a few years ago. It was about the film making industry in Turkey in the 70s-80s, when there were no copyright laws and they were making turkish remakes after all the western famous movies of that time. Can't remember the name of the documentary, but it was really interesting.

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nemanjaC92@reddit

Bregović is kniown to plagiarise a lot.

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Any_Cucumber8534@reddit

I think this conversation is honestly a lot less relevant in Balkan music. Most melodies and rhythms used by the greats of our generations have been lifted from Romani, middle eastern or folk songs of the Slavic people.

This commercialized idea of "plagiarism" is a new concept that hinges on rights and financial benefit from music. That wasn't a thing untill the 2000s in eastern Europe.

Otherwise all folks songs are "plagiarised" from other artists. I feel like we are judging songs written before your time with a modern version of what it means to create and own music

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iswhhrxi@reddit

Hot Take:

Romani people paved the WAY for many Balkan cultures. I don't care if y'all flame me, but they've made a huge impact.

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PasicT@reddit

A lot of ex-Yugo music is either plagiralized or heavily inspired by songs that were created around the same time or decades prior.

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

Now, before you People write against Roma and put them ALL in one pot: Not all Roma sing Ederlezi.

Specifically, this Roma community in Dobruja, Romania, does not sing Ederlezi.

https://scholarlypublications.universiteitleiden.nl/access/item%3A2721940/view

But yes, ederlezi is a nice song, i like it too.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

The song was created from an existing foundation among the Roma. Not everyone sings it, because not everyone celebrates Ederlezi in the Southern Balkans.

It can be celebrated by both Muslims and Christians, but this is not the case in Romania for Muslim Roma, as they associate it with Christianity, whereas Muslim Roma in the Southern Balkans associate it more with a spring festival linked to Anatolia and Mesopotamia in Turkey. The Roma in Turkey also have their own Ederlezi celebration.

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Ujemegaz@reddit

That guy became controversial when he was invited by Rama for a concert in Tirana.

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harvestt77@reddit

There was no controversy when Goran was in Tirana.

Some members of the oposition party tried to portray as patriots when he was in Korca for the beer festival, but evene there, people went and listened to his music.

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Ujemegaz@reddit

So the members of opostion party are not from Tirana 🤔. As i said. Public in Albania is not aware of what happened in Bosnia. They just know that Serbia wiped a village there and that's it. They are not aware that Bregovic was from Bosnia, and that he had been indiferent of what happened there.

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Substratas@reddit

That guy became controversial when he was invited by Rama for a concert in Tirana.

It was not controversial at all in Tirana. Literally every person interviewed in the street said they were okay with him & that art shouldn’t be mixed with politics. Here you have the video:

There was literally only one thug, Redon Leka (who already had a criminal record in property crimes & drug sales) who tried to throw tear gas and was arrested right away.. Nobody in Tirana cares.

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Ujemegaz@reddit

Do you know what "debati" means. Plus, Albanian public is largely unaware of crimes in Bosnia, and Bregovic's indiference to the ethnic cleansing there.

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Substratas@reddit

Plus, Albanian public is largely unaware of crimes in Bosnia, and Bregovic's indiference to the ethnic cleansing there.

I agree that many people in Albania are unaware of the war crimes, but there was no controversy in Tirana about Goran Bregovic.

The only singers having issue with it were the ones from Kosovo (Dafina, Capital-T, etc) who cancelled their performances & Birra Peja (also from Kosovo) that withdrew its sponsorship.

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harvestt77@reddit

Accurate ☝️

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Ujemegaz@reddit

You are debating for the sake of debate. In Tirana there would be no controversy even if some Serbian singer came singing Serbia Strong song. People here care about money, and getting entertained, but Tirana is not whole Albania.

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OnTheLambDude@reddit

This is how I know this is a liberal American sub 🤣🤣 gotta be fucking kidding me

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Horror_Chipmunk3580@reddit

Americans didn’t invent liberalism and this is not an American sub. The conservative Americans you’re looking to suck off are in the conservative sub.

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CakyMint@reddit

what

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Distinct_Travel6386@reddit

All (almost all) his songs are plagiarised, or failed to say original author.

I remember I was watching some movie, scene in Arab desert and then I heard familiar song, Serbian version is sang by Zdravko Čolić, I don't remember which one, but original is created by some Algerian guy.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)

I am not strongly against plagiarism, especially in the Balkans; what bothers me is when it is connected to a people’s folklore. Many people enjoy this music without knowing that the lyrics are in Romani, that the singer is Romani, and that the orchestra is Romani, and that this work is largely rooted in Romani folk tradition.

What people remember about “Ederlezi” is Goran Bregović, not forgetting that he made a Serbo-Croatian version when this music became popular. There were even a minority of Serbian nationalists who claimed that the melody was linked to Serbs in the Jasenovac camps.

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Distinct_Travel6386@reddit

off topic

to Turkish people hear, I like music by your band Model.

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