What do you think of this, is it a reasonable decision, from a Greek perspective?
Posted by SOHONEYSAME@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 497 comments
Iapetus404@reddit
There is also a Greek song/march for Smyrna and Constantinople....
i think if a Greek singer said that song will live "midnight express" 2!
She at least dont allow to enter the country again....
go to Berlin to sing nationalist songs b**ch
seddard@reddit
Izmir March has zero mention of Greeks by name in any line. There is only one line that says "retreating enemies always run like wind" in first verse and that's all. Rest of the march is about sacrifice, nature, martyrs, orphan children of the war etc. typical wartime song.
Dumlupinar, Sakarya or Akdeniz marches are also about actual battles vs Greeks in War of Independence but neither of them even mentions neither Greeks nor how they are killed. Actually I can't recall any anthem or march that mentions.
Yeah, I know some of the songs that some of you neo-nazi Golden Dawners love, you see no problem in openly glorifying the brutal massacres of civilians in Tripoli and Navarino while getting triggered by songs that don't even say anything about you which is soft as fuck.
Kind of like today's Zionists who also wants to control the gates of the narrative in West no matter what and have zero tolerance for people even hearing about other side's perspective.
I would have schooled you about Midnight Express as well but enough lesson for today.
Temporary-Check-1507@reddit
Erika is also a song about girls and flowers ..... I wonder if I sing it people will think I am a nazi.......
seddard@reddit
You should ask that question to the long list of actual Nazi collaborators in your country.
PhantomO1@reddit
We tried to kill them but the British and Americans protected them
That whole civil war thing
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
eh?
PhantomO1@reddit
a lot of battalionists were quickly forgiven and incorporated into the national guard of the post war government, where they were put to work doing pretty much the same thing they were doing during the occupation: hunting the communist partizans were the biggest force in liberating greece, along with any sympathizers
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
the "communists" (backed by Bulgaria/Yugoslavia) planned to "give away" Macedonia.
IssaMuffin@reddit
The “democrats” gave away the entire country to the UK and USA.
seddard@reddit
I know mate, I didn't mean to generalize.
PhantomO1@reddit
all good then
GrecoPotato@reddit
Telling that to Greeks who fought hard against Nazis when Turks hid in their wells is insane cope.
Temporary-Check-1507@reddit
Nice deflection!
(Not really)
Words have meaning , songs have meaning
if I sing Cyprus is Greek fuck Turkey? What would you think of me? if a serb sings my father is a war criminal?
I loathe nationalist everywhere and their friends that whitewash
seddard@reddit
Look mate, majority of Turks including me has no specific hatred towards Greeks or whatsoever, I hope that's the case over there as well. I was a Helena Paparizou voter if you are old enough. I also said that it's inappropriate to sing it in their country in my initial message.
We are just triggered by your ignorance of portraying things on your tighter perspective instead of not trying to understand what those same things represent to us on a wider perspective. You guys are also mostly very clueless with our politics considering your politics see us as such an existential threat. I mean look at this thread most think Erdogan is a nationalist ffs.
For instance, this specific march is a banger I must admit but it became very popular in last decade or more especially among political opposition not because it's about a victory vs Greeks (unless it's sang in a game vs Greek team). It's because it's a march where you can chant Ataturk's name in current political spectrum against current regime (be politic without being politic if you know what I mean). Even government doesn't like to hear it, I remember times state channel attempted to lower the sound when it's chanted during a game.
Affectionate-Arm-405@reddit
Did you started saying it is a wartime song BUT it doesn't specifically mention the word Greece or Greeks. What kind of arguments are you trying to make here. Stop acting immature. There is no "BUT"
Temporary-Check-1507@reddit
Man I don't care if this song is sang by Allah or god or whatever. It is a nationalist song that was sang in Greece. What did you expect to happen? Also Chp is nationalist....
https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/chp-head-slams-greek-defense-minister-vows-to-take-back-18-islands-occupied-by-greece-in-2019-124635
Not even joking your country is different kinda of nationalists and islamists. At least my country is not threatening all it's neighbors 24/7. Makes heroes of genociders like enver pasha. The person that ordered the attack after WW1 is vilified not encouraged for the atrocities committed
https://dijitalistanbul.org/en/enver-pasa-tomb/
Our countries are not the same you are way too nationalist to even compare
Iapetus404@reddit
Illustrious_Glass_22@reddit
What is that supposed to prove?
herhangibirperson@reddit
Greeks opening nationalist flags infront of Hagia Sophia need to be kicked out of the country. Go to Athens and open your flags there
Iapetus404@reddit
physoc@reddit
The world does not need racist like you.
Mr_Scientist015@reddit
How is someone racist for wanting his homeland to be free and to belong to its people? Atp we don't care everyone is called a racist, you made that word loose it's value!
physoc@reddit
What you say is not related with tourism. How can you guys not let tourists from Turkiye to visit Greece and Cyprus when you can freely visit Turkiye? This is beyond tourism.
Affectionate-Arm-405@reddit
Many turks visit Greece with no problem every year. What are you talking about
Iapetus404@reddit
lmao
Fun-Handle5068@reddit
Yes
Roufianos255@reddit
I mean, I'm not gonna be hyperbolic and say she's a threat to national security or anything, but being to enter any country is a privilege not a right. If you're going to insult that country then it's completely fair if they withdraw that privilege.
miffebarbez@reddit
Depends on which passport she used. Cyprus and Greece are both EU countries (only Greece is part of Schengen). Greece c
weldo420@reddit
Where is the insult
Alipherus@reddit
Saying Kemal's quote that is also written in the, de jure Cypriot - de facto occupied by the Turkish army, Pentadaktilos mountain.
.
weldo420@reddit
Beşparmak mountains*
Different_Lecture_43@reddit
That’s written in thousands of other places in Turkiye so i wouldn’t take it personal.
Abrek9@reddit
Are you as greek not allowed to say I love Greece to enter Turkey? I mean we all are critical and condem turkish goverments when they act racist and un democratical so why shouldnt Greece get same condomnation when they use blatant racism towards turks?
MISTERJOHNSONSENIOR@reddit
I am amazed that no one is commenting on the fact that she comes from the illegal pseudo-state of northen cyprus that is not recongized by anyone else than the occupant (Turkey) and the above post claims that she is Cypriot. She is not.
CupcakeMurder86@reddit
Exactly this. I searched about her. She's Turkish 100%. She has no other connection to Cyprus other than her mother owned a restaurant in the occupied Cyprus. Both her parents are Turkish.
No idea why the media say "Cypriot" everywhere. She has no connection to Cyprus.
Proper_Club_4802@reddit
Freedom of should be protect as long as it is respectful. I am not saying anything about her being respectful or disrespectful but what did she expect really? A warm welcome after singing a song about how we kicked their asses?
ExerciseNegative3551@reddit
What if someone came in a Turkish city for a concert and sang the Kurdish National anthem or songs about the Armenian genocide or a greek song about the freeing of Tripolitsa?
Would that person be accepted in Turkey again?
My guess is no
herhangibirperson@reddit
We literally have thousands of people singing PKK songs, and whenever we try to do something we are called racists and fascists
touchgrasslater@reddit
point is though your reaction to the act is the same. it's just that they have been able to execute what you couldn't
Alternative_Chip_397@reddit
There was no Armenian genocide but no I personally wouldn't mind sing whatever you want ig
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
How you genocided the Greeks?
NovaImperiumRomanum@reddit
You meant how greeks used scorched earth tactic burned villages and killed hundreds of thousands civilian in anatolia while retreating ?
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Whataboutism?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide
Share your link.
dontneedit000@reddit
What were the Greeks doing in Turkish territory between 1919 and 1923?
Bulky-Plate2068@reddit
Dying
dontneedit000@reddit
That's both a correct and an incorrect answer. They were invading our lands, and as a result, they died, but our soldiers and civilians also died.
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
They were invading they lands they had been in 3000 years whilst you were in the depths of central Asia?
Nice
Ok-Monitor-241@reddit
With this logic you do not have to a right to claim Anatolia because you there were Local Anatolians before you
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
We are the local anatolians. We lived in anatolia the time of Hittites.
If you find the Hittites let me know.
mehwhateverrrrr@reddit
Lol no you weren't the only ones and neither were the hittites. The Greeks didn’t arrive in an empty land they settled along the coasts over existing populations. People have never even heard of Luwians, Phyrgians and Lydians because of the Greek conquests.
If were following your logic the Greeks, who were masters of the same cycle of conquest and colonization that they cry about today, would have a lot more to answer for than us.
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Stop treating anatolia as some monolith.
Luwians were in east. Lydians and phyrgians post date greeks in anatolia and phyrgians speak a relative of greek...
Complete fail.
Greeks have been west anatolia since the dawn of civilization.
Greeks are the anatolian tribe that has persisted. We are still here.
mehwhateverrrrr@reddit
Calling Anatolia "not a monolith" and then flattening its entire history into "Greeks were always there" is the real contradiction here.
The Luwians were not just "in the east" they were widespread across western and southern Anatolia during the Bronze Age, long before Greek settlement on the coast.
The Phrygians and Lydians don’t post date Greeks in any way that supports your point. They emerge in the early Iron Age alongside Greek presence, not after some supposed empty vacuum Greeks filled. And no Phrygian being indoeuropean doesn’t make it "basically Greek" any more than English is basically German.
Greek presence in western Anatolia comes from colonization during the early 1st millennium BCE, after the collapse of earlier Anatolian civilizations tied to groups like the Hittites and Luwian speaking populations. That’s not dawn of civilization that’s a later phase.
Saying Greeks are ‘the Anatolian tribe that persisted’ is just redefining a later arriving group as native, while dismissing everyone before them. By that logic, any long term population becomes indigenous if you go forward far enough.
Greeks in Anatolia were settlers who mixed with and most of the time dominated earlier populations just like later groups, including the Turks. The difference is timing, not some unique claim to being the "original" people.
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Myceneaens were there since the bronze age. Bronze age predates iron age.....
Yes complete and utter fail.
Greeks are MORE native to anatolia than Lydians. They predate them.
Phyrgians are literally a myceneaen offshoot.
"Greeks in anatolia were settlers".... from 1500bc? Stop the cringe. Greeks are near identical origins as other anatolian groups and there for longer any civilisation.
You on the other hand arrived after all of anatolia had been Hellensied for 2000 years from central central Asia speaking a language related to Japanese.... You're like Martians in anatolia.
mehwhateverrrrr@reddit
Mycenaeans were based in mainland Greece. There’s no solid evidence of large-scale Mycenaean settlement across western Anatolia. What we do have from Hittite records (like references to Ahhiyawa) points to contact and influence, not that the entire coast was already Greek.
Western Anatolia in the Bronze Age was dominated by Luwians and related populations. That’s before the later Greek speaking Ionian and Aeolian settlements show up in force after the Bronze Age collapse.
Saying "Greeks are more native than Lydians" doesn’t really work either. The Lydians emerge out of those earlier Anatolian populations. Greeks and Lydians both take shape in the Iron Age in that region, one isn’t some deep rooted original while the other is not.
The genetics point you linked actually undercuts your argument. Mycenaeans had ancestry related to earlier Anatolian farmers but so did many populations across the Aegean and Anatolia. That doesn’t make Greeks uniquely indigenous to Anatolia, it shows shared prehistoric ancestry across the whole region.
And calling Anatolia ‘fully Hellenized for 2000 years’ is just not accurate. Even under the Achaemenid Empire, and later periods, Anatolia remained ethnically and culturally mixed, not some uninterrupted Greek homeland.
Greeks may not have been martians but they also weren’t some singular, continuous native population of all Anatolia since the dawn of civilization. They were one of several groups that arrived, settled, and became part of the region over time just like others later on.
Actually we're the owners of Anatolia no matter how much you seethe and post misinformed history lessons about it on reddit😘
Sorry someone beat you at you're own game. Its nice watching you rage about it under every post that mentions Turks though.
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Keep going. I love your coping. I love how you distance Anatolia from Mycenaeans. Were hittites communicating with Mycenean by sailing the aegean? The Tawagalawa Letter, the great hitte king referee to Mycenaeans as his peer........... Miletus was a literal Mycenean strong hold in the kingdom of ahhiyawa ( Mycenean achaeans)
Do you deny this kingdom existed?
https://www.britannica.com/place/Ahhiyawa
Complete and utter fail
Can you imagine denying their presence since 1400bc. You cannot even comprehend how old that is.
Carians and phyrgians are the love child of Mycenaeans and Hittites. This is proven in zgenetic research.
Greeks were the dominant anatolian tribe. They're the ones who won the culture war in the end .
The modern ancestors of all anatolian people are today's modern Anatolian Greeks. The greek tribe became the dominant one by Alexander. Whilst 99% of world ethnic groups didnt exist.
If today's Greece was called caria, you'd be stating. It wasnt carians all the time it was hittites.
Or if Greeks claimed to be hittites, you'd claim it was sent hittite but anatolian farmer.
Hittites, don't exist
Carians don't exist.
Greeks do exist and have had a presence in the region since the bronze age😘😘
mehwhateverrrrr@reddit
Yea I'm bored with this now and wont be reading your "we were also brutal conquerors but it isnt the same because reasons". Whether you like it or not Greeks got beat at their own game of conquest, colonization and domination by a group of warriors stronger than them and now cry about it into a void that no one cares about besides them(and not even really them tbh. More so you cringe diaspora nationalists. Mainlanders arent cringe like you guys).
Our existence and persistence, despite you working with your big brothers in the west, is already an own in itself. Anatolia will never be yours again, seethe😘❤️
(BTW I'm sparing you right now by not mentioning that we also are the descendants of anatolian natives and are just Turkified which destroys your entire argument here of genetics and your inflated role in history. Which is conveniently something you diaspora always seem to forget)
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Describing the Greeks as equivalent to invading Turks during middle age who are not west Eurasian, don't have origins in anatolia, are not indo European, have not existed since the bronze age, have never interacted with ancient anatolians is beyond hilarious.
I'll let you in to a little secret. There no such thing as anatolian ethnic group. Not culturally nor genetically. It's a region that had multiple different tribes and ethnic groups in the ancient including Mycenean and hittite. Noone ever identified as anatolian.
As for specific civilisations:
A myceneaen is 90% copper age anatolian+ 10% steppe.
A Hittite is 80% copper age anatolian+ 20% mesopotamian.
A Turkic is 30% yellow river farmer, 30% Mongolian far etc.....
A Turkic is Martian to the region.
Any hittite DNA arrived via a greek source. You never interacted with Ancient anatolian groups.
We WeRZe hIttITeS n ShIT
Claiming you're descendant from Anatolians is effectively claiming you're Greeks...... Ouch didn't think that through did you?
Why not claim you're African instead and should be native Ghana?
Like I said if modern Greeks claimed to be hittites, you say they were there first as some farmer civilisation existed before them. That's your entire arguement. Copium
Not only are Hittite and Mycenean the same predominant proto population making it impossible to determine what ancestry came from each other but any modern Mediterranean population is closer to either of them than modern Turks who are effectively west and east Eurasian mix like a mexican..
https://www.reddit.com/r/illustrativeDNA/s/bz8pFD196O.
mehwhateverrrrr@reddit
And we are now full circle ladies and gentlemen
You want the last word so bad you are now making points that contradict your own original points. But youre right, answer the question. Why stop at Anatolia why not just claim Africa too?
No my entire argument is that Greek civilization were just as bad, just as brutal and just as colonizing as the Turks you're incredibly obsessed with.
Literally you can pull the argument any which way you want but its a fact. And then unironically using the word "copium" is just...
..well its certainly a choice.
RandomPersonYouSee@reddit
No you were not 🤷🏽
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Since 1400 BC. Learn you history.
RandomPersonYouSee@reddit
There were people before you, and cultures before you, and civilizations before you. There will be people after you, cultures after you, and civilizations after you.
I know my history. Old Anatolian civilizations are literally teached for an entire year in middle school.
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
What's the difference between a myceneaen, Hittite or phyrgian?
dontneedit000@reddit
With that logic, everyone could try to 'take back' everywhere. We also ruled a large part of Greece for about 400-500 years, but that doesn't mean we have the right to claim it today bro
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Doesn't make sense
Your arrival into the region predates greek presence and you stole it 400 years ago too.
If you steal something tell the judge but I stole this other thing 400 years ago...
dontneedit000@reddit
Stealing?? When you conquer land, you're heroes, but when we conquer, we're thieves, huh? What do you use? Recommend one for me too.
NikosStrifios@reddit
Yes "CONQUERING" is STEALING LAND! Next question please.
dontneedit000@reddit
It’s hilarious that you call conquering 'stealing' because that makes you and your ancestors the biggest thieves in history. How do you think Greeks ended up in Anatolia? They conquered and colonized the lands of the Hittites and Luwians. By your own logic, you are just the descendant of a thief. It’s funny how you’re insulting your own people without even realizing it.
NikosStrifios@reddit
Really? How by reading your fairy tales?
Which war was that? None, because the event you are describing never happened. Also, even IF it was true, what makes you think you can speak on behalf of the Hittites and Luwians and how that strengthens your moral claim on Anatolia? 🤣🤣🤣 You are not the Hittites or the Luwians mate, you are just an invader.
To make that statement you have to realize what "logic" is first. And when you think you can speak on behalf of extinct civilizations by citing wars which never happened, you have no logic at all!
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Native to those lands unfortunately. We built civilization. You founded cities.
Name one city founded by Turks in anatolia
dontneedit000@reddit
If you’re looking for cities founded or entirely rebuilt into major centers by Turks, start with Aksaray, Nevşehir, or Kırşehir. Even Ankara was a small town before Turks transformed it into a modern capital. But more importantly, civilization isn't just about who laid the first stone 3,000 years ago; it’s about who maintained, evolved, and lived in those lands for the last millennium. By your logic, no one in the Americas or half of Europe has a right to their 'civilization' because they didn't 'found' the prehistoric settlements there. History is a flow, not a static photo from antiquity.
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
All those 3 cities founded by indo European hittites.........
Anything else you want to lie about?
Give me one, just one, city founded by Turks.
dontneedit000@reddit
Civilization is not just about who laid the first stone, but about who protected that stone and kept it standing for a thousand years. Those who founded Rome built upon the foundations of previous tribes in that land. By that logic, London or Paris could also be considered 'unfounded'.
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Both London and Paris were founded by romans.
After being in anatolia for almost 1000 years surely you founded a city? A proper seljuk Turk city.
How is that not possible?
Is that not shocking?
It's because they were a civilisation consumer not a civilisation creator. They depended on conquest and exploits of other civilisations.
In the same league as ghenkis Kahn, Isis and Nazis. Ottoman empire fell because it run out of people to pillage and enslave. Too many people converted to islam not enough jizz tax. In a last ditch effort. You tried east African Sudanese slaves. You were still trading in captured women as sex slaves in the 20th century.
dontneedit000@reddit
I never claimed that Turks were the indigenous people of Anatolia; as a Turkmen from Samarkand roots, I am well aware of our history and migration. However, your obsession with 'who was there first' is historically irrelevant. Empires have fought, conquered, and lost lands throughout all of human history—this isn't unique to Turks and Greeks. The reality of the 21st century is that Anatolia is our home now, and borders aren't determined by ancient ghosts, but by modern history and international law. Enjoy your nostalgia, but we are living in the present.
NikosStrifios@reddit
"Migration",🤣🤣. More like colonization.
Doesn't mean anything and doesn't give the right to anything. It also doesn't excuse your occupation and land grab.
Reality is that you occupy our ancestral lands. For how long? We will see. But when shit hits the roof don't start playing the victim as you tend to do everytime your actions catch up to you and get what you deserve.
A Turk bringing up "international law" is a joke at best. You don't respect international law, you only respect whatever suits your pervasive interests.
Be sure to remember that in the future. Be sure to teach it to your children as well, they might need to know that so they won't pose as victims when they will be kicked out of the lands they occupy. If all you respect is "might is right" and the "right of conquest" then just admit it openly and stop crying about all the times alwe fought back against your occupation.
dontneedit000@reddit
It’s funny how you try to lecture me on 'international law' while simultaneously dreaming about 'kicking us out' of our homes. That is the definition of hypocrisy. You cry about the past to justify your ethnic cleansing fantasies in the present. The fact remains: International law recognizes these borders, and the world recognizes that this is OUR OWN LANDS. You can hate it all you want, but your 'ancestral' claims don't give you a right to anything in the 21st century. If you despise 'might is right' so much, then stop acting like a keyboard warrior threatening a nation of 85 million people. You are stuck in a history book; we are living in reality. Stay mad.
dontneedit000@reddit
Your argument ignores basic history for the sake of rhetoric. To say Turks didn't 'found' cities is absurd; cities like Konya, Sivas, and Kayseri were transformed from small outposts into major global centers of science, art, and trade under the Seljuks. Just because they built upon existing geography doesn't make them 'consumers'—by that logic, the Romans were 'consumers' of Greek and Etruscan culture. Comparing a multi-ethnic empire that lasted 600 years and gave refuge to Sephardic Jews fleeing the Inquisition to ISIS or the Nazis is historically illiterate. The Ottoman economy was based on trade routes (the Silk Road), not just conquest. As for the 20th century, the Republic of Turkey was founded on modern secular values, leaving those imperial-era practices behind, just as Western nations had to do with their own colonial and slave-trading pasts.
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Isis and Nazis were extreme versions. It was all the same principles. I am better than you. You are under me... That's the ottomans. That's the Nazis. That's Isis.
You kneel to me and pay tax or I'll invade you. Invasion meant rape, piladged and enslavement. Both those civilisations did that. Take the children and make them your soldiers. Isis worked on this.
Youll say "but Romans and Greeks did the same".... No they did not. Once Romans and Greeks conquered. Everyone became Roman or greek. They were inclusive. They built a shared citizenship across people. Ottoman worked on a subjugation system for its entire existing. We are tolerant, but you cannot ever be correct against a Muslim in court. You must pay punitive taxes that starve your family to death and you must supply us with your children for you armies.Greeks and Romans, soldiers were free men.
Multi ethnicities under ottomans because you needed them to fund the empire. No jizz tax, youd collapse. Instead of building economy on progression and order like Romans, you built one entirely dependant on subjugation.
You slavery was unique in being sexual in nature. You'd sell women like commodity. Something the west didnt even engage with. Because a non Muslims was seen as not being rape.
Whejn Byzantines effectively banned slavery in 7th century as it was deemed unchristian. You were trading in Circassian women into the 20th.
Look at any town in Italy. Compare that with any town in the ottoman empire. The most common houses were mud huts at the fall of the ottoman empire from stone and marble of byzantines.
dontneedit000@reddit
Your argument isn't history; it's a fan-fiction of Greek and Roman 'superiority.' You’re painting a picture where Greeks and Romans were benevolent liberators while Turks were monsters, which is historically laughable. The 'Inclusive' Myth: Ask the millions of people the Romans enslaved, the cities they razed to the ground, and the cultures they wiped out how 'inclusive' they felt. Roman 'citizenship' was a tool of control, not a gift of equality. Slavery Hypocrisy: Claiming the West didn't engage in sexual or brutal slavery is the peak of ignorance. The European colonial empires built their entire wealth on the literal backs of slaves. The Victim Complex: You speak as if Byzantium was a peaceful paradise. It was a brutal, decaying empire that fell because its own people often preferred Ottoman rule over the crushing taxes and religious persecution of the Latin/Byzantine elites. The 'ISIS' Comparison: Comparing a 600-year-old state that managed dozens of ethnicities for centuries to a 21st-century terrorist cult is just 'brainrot' logic. If we use your logic, should we compare Ancient Greek infanticide or Roman gladiator massacres to modern war crimes? You aren't arguing facts; you are just nursing a centuries-old grudge because your 'marble and stone' fantasy didn't last. History doesn't care about your feelings of superiority.
dontneedit000@reddit
Your attempt to romanticize Rome and Greece while comparing a 600-year-old multi-continental empire to ISIS or the Nazis is a masterclass in historical revisionism. 1. Inclusive Romans? Claiming everyone became 'Roman' after conquest is factually wrong. For centuries, full citizenship was a rare privilege. Rome was a slave-based economy. At its peak, nearly 30-40% of the population of Italy were slaves—people with zero rights, treated as 'talking tools' (instrumentum vocale). Comparing Roman legions (who often consisted of conscripted provincials) to 'free men' while ignoring their brutal slavery system is pure hypocrisy. 2. Taxation and Subjugation: The 'Jizya' was a tax paid in exchange for military exemption. In contrast, under Roman rule, if you were a 'Peregrinus' (non-citizen), you paid heavy taxes and had no legal protection. The 'subjugation' you mention was the standard feudal and imperial practice of the time globally, including the Byzantine 'Pronoia' system. 3. Slavery and Women: Claiming the West 'didn't engage' with sexual slavery or the sale of women is historically absurd. The Trans-Atlantic slave trade and the treatment of indigenous women by colonial powers are well-documented. Furthermore, Byzantium did not ban slavery in the 7th century; it remained a legal and economic reality until the very end of the empire in 1453. 4. Architecture and 'Mud Huts': Comparing the Renaissance-era marble palaces of Italy to the rural architecture of the late Ottoman Balkans is a 'cherry-picking' fallacy. If you want to see Ottoman stone architecture, look at the bridges of Sinan, the complexes in Edirne, or the urban planning of Bursa. By your logic, we could compare a slum in Roman-era Britain to the Topkapı Palace and claim Romans only lived in huts. Comparing an early modern empire to 20th-century genocidal regimes or modern terrorist cults only proves you are not interested in history, but in promoting a specific narrative of hate.
RenRambles@reddit
Hittites? I thought you said Turks stole Greek lands. What were Greeks doing in Hittite lands?
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Hittites were cousins to Greeks. Greeks were in the west and Hittites in central.
Review the Tawagalawa letter.
Both ultimately descend the same anatolian farmer people. Much like Turkmen were cousins to uyghar.
RenRambles@reddit
What were Greeks doing in Hittite lands?
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
They were there the same time as hittites. Greeks were in west and Hittites in east.
You're welcome
RenRambles@reddit
An hour ago it was the centre, now it's the east. Anyway, what were they doing in the Hittite lands?
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Brain numbing logic.
Myceneaens descend from anatolian farmers in the first place and were the west as long as Hittites were in the east.
Both Indo European.
Turks on the hand are completed foreign and arrived in the middle ages speaking a language related to Japanese...
RenRambles@reddit
All I'm hearing is "We steal from our own family". That's not the W you think it is, buddy.
dontneedit000@reddit
Nevşehir. It was a tiny village called Mushkara until the 18th century when it was built from scratch into a major city by the Ottomans. That’s why it’s literally named 'New City'."
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Fail agian. Neapolis was the prior Byzantine city at the same location that Turks expanded and literally translated the name to Turkish....
You can't make that up. Centred around a Byzantine castle.....
And expanded 18th Century? Next you'll give me one from 21st century.
dontneedit000@reddit
You are confusing Nevşehir with other ancient settlements in the Cappadocia region. Here are the historical facts: Muşkara Village: Until the 18th century, Nevşehir was just a tiny village with 18 households named Muşkara. There was no Byzantine 'city' of Neapolis at this specific location. The Transformation: The city was built from scratch as an imperial project by the Ottoman Grand Vizier, Nevşehirli Damat Ibrahim Pasha, in the early 1700s. He commissioned mosques, madrasas, and hammams, and forcibly settled nomadic tribes there to turn a small village into a major urban center. Etymology: The name 'Nevşehir' is a Persian-Turkish compound (Nev = New, Şehir = City) specifically coined during the Ottoman era to celebrate its founding. If it were a translation of Neapolis, it would more likely be 'Yenişehir' (like the town in Bursa). If you want more examples of cities established or fundamentally built by Turks, look at Kırşehir, or the development of Ankara from a small town into a modern capital. Don't mistake 'being near an old site' for 'not being a new city'.
Puzzleheaded_Sail729@reddit
Go and invade Rift Valley then, it is the birthplace of Homo Sapiens
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Greeks werent in rift valley for 3000 years. Sorry
Puzzleheaded_Sail729@reddit
So greeks were not homo sapiens, nice
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
that's irrelevant.
it was a invasion.
ofc, the campaigns in the Balkans, Crete, & Aegean were, also, invasions.
that doesn't mean they weren't, well, "justified"
but they're, obviously, invasions, regardless.
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Invading who from who?
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
Greece invaded Ottoman Empire.
Crete, Aegean, Balkans, Asia.
100% invasions.
(& no, whether "Byzantium" controlled these centuries back, is irrelevant when it comes to this).
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Wrong. What a moronic thing to suggest.
Greece fought for independence against ottoman empire.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
yeah,
so, 1897/1912/1913/1920 campaigns,
Greece "was fighting for independence" according to u?
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
All those regions had a greek majority population so yes. Try again.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
and?
they were still invasions of the Ottoman Empire, can u not understand this?
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
How is trying to claim your land that you have lived in for 3000 years and make up the majority an invasion? Do the native Americans invade the USA.
Were the Mani in 1821 also invading the ottomans?
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
lol.
είσαι εντελώς μαλάκας?
και 10,000 χρόνια να ήταν, ΔΕΝ ΕΧΕΙ ΣΗΜΑΣΙΑ.
η Ελλάδα ήταν (ανεξάρτητη) χώρα.
και δεν υπάρχει κανένας (σοβαρός) ιστορικός που να λέει ότι "actually, δεν ήταν invasions"
μιλάμε για (καθαρά) facts.
& μου λες μαλακίες τύπου, "ήταν Βυζάντιο πριν αιώνες"
(λέτε συγκεκριμένες αηδίες κάποιοι, & για αυτό δεν σας παίρνεις ΚΑΝΕΙΣ σοβαρά).
NikosStrifios@reddit
Your lands? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Hahahahaha they NEVER EVER be your lands. You will forever be an occupier, an evil colonist. Nothing more than that.
dontneedit000@reddit
If you want to play the 'occupier' game, you should look at your own history first. Greeks weren't the indigenous people of Anatolia; they migrated and colonized lands belonging to the Hittites, Hattis, and Luwians around 1200 BC. By your own logic, you were the 'occupiers' of those civilizations. History is a series of migrations and conquests. You cannot cherry-pick a specific century and claim it's the 'beginning' of time. The reality is, we have been here for 1000 years, and no matter how much you cry on Reddit, we are living on OUR OWN LANDS. Your hateful comments won't change the borders, the flag, or the reality of the 21st century. Get used to it.
NikosStrifios@reddit
I have looked at it. It looks like history, unlike your criminal record.
Yes, they were.
Extinct civilizations which no longer exist and you cannot speak on behalf of them or cite wars which never happened.
History is full of land grabs and land stealers, that doesn't make it right.
Never cherry picked anything, in comparison/relation to you, we are the indigenous people and you are the invaders. Simple as that.
You can occupy them for even 2000 years for all I care, as long as we exist, you are occupiers. End of story.
Not your own. That's the harsh reality. You took those lands by force from us.
There is nothing hateful about mentioning the facts. That's the harsh reality. Get used to it.
dontneedit000@reddit
Cry as much as you want, this beautiful and magnificent land is OURS
Ujemegaz@reddit
Of laughter?
DimGenn2@reddit
Same thing we were doing in 1821 and 1912. Liberating our land.
dontneedit000@reddit
Why are you liberating OUR LANDS, or why are you pointing weapons at our civilians and plundering our villages under the guise of "liberation"?
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
The Greek civilians that were genocided you mean? They were just living their lives there, like they had been doing for millennia.
dontneedit000@reddit
No, I'm talking about the Greeks who pointed their weapons and ammunition at my people.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
We are talking about the unarmed Greeks that were massacred. You may have misunderstood.
dontneedit000@reddit
No, the truth is you came to our lands, pointed your weapons at us, and you became the victims.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
Who came to your lands? The unarmed local civilians who had been living in those lands for millennia? Are you sure about that?
dontneedit000@reddit
We already discussed that, do you have a problem understanding? The fact that you were among the first to defecate on those lands doesn't change anything; after all, there were people who lived there before you.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
So you admit these people didn't "come to these lands". In fact, you were the ones who came to their lands, and you accuse them of being foreign. This is hilarious and tragic at the same time. So I ask again, why were the civilians murdered, since they weren't foreign invaders??
dontneedit000@reddit
Stop intentionally confusing unarmed civilians with the invading Hellenic Army. The Greek state didn't send flowers; they sent an army to annex lands that had been under Turkish administration for centuries. When you send an army to another nation's internationally recognized borders (at that time) to claim territory, that is the definition of an invasion. As for the tragedies, they were mutual and horrific, but they were triggered by the arrival of an interventionist army, not by neighbors living peacefully.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
What do you mean "they were triggered"? Did anyone force Turks to commit atrocities against civilians? The whole argument of this thread is that you don't get to come to Greece and sing Izmir Marsi, because it is a reminder of atrocities against unarmed Greeks. You are the one who misleadingly brought up the "invading" Greek army, when all we are saying is that a huge number of native Greek civilians were massacred under the tune of this song.
dontneedit000@reddit
You’re missing the point. Izmir Marsi is not a celebration of atrocities; it is a symbol of national liberation and the end of a multi-year war of independence. By your logic, no nation could sing its national anthem or liberation songs, as almost all of them were written during bloody conflicts where civilians on both sides suffered. When I say 'triggered,' I refer to the historical fact that the arrival of an interventionist army in 1919 collapsed the social order and started a total war. If there was no invasion, there would be no reason for such a song to exist in the first place. You cannot separate the suffering of Greek civilians from the military ambitions of the Megali Idea that brought them into a war zone. Tragedies are not one-sided, and using a song of liberation as a scapegoat for the entire complexity of the 1920s is a massive oversimplification.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
The song was sung specifically when the Turkish army entered Smyrna. No one prevents you from singing your national anthem, but this is very different and you know it. When someone complains about it, and you ask "what were the Greeks doing there", knowing full well that the concern is related to the massacre of Greek civilians, you sre feigning ignorance.
dontneedit000@reddit
The only one feigning ignorance here is you. İzmir Marşı celebrates the liberation of a city from a 3-year brutal military occupation. It’s not about civilians; it’s about the fact that an invading army, which burned down half of Western Anatolia while retreating, was finally defeated. You keep trying to moralize a war that your state started with imperialist ambitions. If you’re so concerned about 'massacres,' maybe look into what the Greek army did to Turkish civilians in Manisa, Aydın, and Uşak. Or are those civilians not worth your concern? Using a song of independence as a scapegoat for your military failure is pathetic. I’m calling it İzmir because that’s the name of the city we won back. If you can't handle the reality of a lost war and the end of an illegal occupation, that’s a 'you' problem. I'm done going in circles with someone who justifies an invasion but cries about the celebration of its end.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
The march is used to celebrate the end of occupation but at the same time it eas sung by the very soldiers who massacred the Greek civilians in Smyrna, as they were entering the city.
Again, you appeal to Greek atrocities, but what the Turks did in Smyrna was incomparably worse. It's's not even close. We are talking about a completely different level.
No, the war started with the ambition of liberation, as I explained, just like the Balkan Wars. These weren't "imperialist ambitions".
Lol, you keep talking about the military failure, but no one is talking about that. We are talking about civilian massacres and only that. Till you realize that, everyone should refrain from singing this kind of genocide associated song in Greece, because there is the risk of deportation. If we did the same in Turkey, there would be jail time for sure.
dontneedit000@reddit
You keep using emotional fallacies and extreme exaggerations to avoid the core reality: the tragedy was triggered by an illegal invasion of a land where the vast majority of the population was Turkish. Comparing a song of independence—which celebrates the end of a 3-year brutal occupation—to a 'celebration of genocide' is a gross oversimplification and a desperate attempt to moralize a failed imperialist adventure. If you really want to talk about atrocities, look no further than the Security Battalions (Tagmata Asfaleias) during WWII, where Greek units collaborated with Nazis and swore an oath of loyalty to Hitler to kill their own people. History is complex and tragic for everyone, but you cannot start an invasion and then play the victim when you lose it. I have provided neutral historical reports and census data, while you have provided only subjective rhetoric. I don't have the time to keep debunking your biases because, unlike you, I have a future to build and exams to study for. I’m done with this loop. Believe in your version of 'history' if it helps you sleep at night. Don't expect another reply. Goodbye.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
You keep using the word triggered as if the genocide was a natural consequence of the invasion. Again, the ethnic cleansing was a choice already made and executed in 1914, Izmir Marsi simply served as the introduction to the final act.
You are seriously taking Nazi traitors who killed their fellow Greeks and using them against Greece as if that changes anything?? This must be the craziest argument thus far. You literally had Labor Battalions (Amele Taburlari) designed to exterminate Greeks. Come on...
I provided specific data about years and treaties you violated, accepted the irrelevant data you gave and simply debunked the logic that you use, but I see that you don't appreciate that.
dontneedit000@reddit
Since you are talking about tragedies and blaming one side, you should educate yourself on the 'Scorched Earth Policy' carried out by the retreating Greek Army in 1922. It is documented by neutral Western observers, not just 'Turkish propaganda'. Arnold J. Toynbee, a British historian who witnessed the events, detailed the systematic atrocities in his book 'The Western Question in Greece and Turkey'. Also, check the official U.S. State Department documents (FRUS 1922) regarding the burning of cities like Manisa and Aydin by the Greek forces. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919%E2%80%931922)#Greek_scorched-earth_policy Don't act like the occupation was a peaceful parade; it was a brutal invasion that ended in a desperate destruction of the land by the retreating side.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
Yes, the difference is we do not deny these and we do not celebrate them with anthems. Also, the massacres you committed were on an incomparably larger scale. It's not even close. They were committed on such a scale that they were de facto ethnic cleansing. Hundreds of thousands were massacred.
dontneedit000@reddit
The difference is that you are framing a war of independence as a targeted attack on civilians. İzmir Marşı does not celebrate massacres; it celebrates the entry of the Turkish army into İzmir and the end of a 3-year-long occupation. No one is celebrating the suffering of people; we are celebrating the fact that we are no longer an occupied nation. As for the 'scale,' trying to rank human suffering is a race to the bottom. If the Greek army hadn't crossed the sea to invade Anatolia in the first place, none of these tragedies would have happened. You can't start a fire and then complain about how big the smoke is. Also, stick to the name İzmir; the fact that you still use the old name shows that your issue isn't with 'massacres,' but with the fact that you lost the war.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
I realize that you celebrate not being an occupied nation and you choose to ignore the massacres when singing the song, but we do not ignore those massacres, and if, as a Turk choose to sing a song with genocidal connotations in Greece, you may rightfully get deported. That's all.
Oh, yeah, sure, ranking human suffering is bad, cause if for every Turk Greeks killed Turks killed 10 Greeks that's irrelevant. When the Nazis killed 100 Greeks for every German soldier the Greeks killed, thus ethnically cleansing entire villages, maybe that's also irrelevant. We shouldn't rank human suffering...
As for the name thing, don't deflect. I gave you an answer anyway.
dontneedit000@reddit
You are pulling numbers out of thin air. There is no neutral historical source—not even Greek ones—that suggests a 1:100 ratio. Using such absurd hyperbole and making comparisons to the Nazis only proves that you have run out of logical arguments and are now relying on pure emotional manipulation. If you are so interested in ratios, go read the Inter-Allied Commission of Inquiry report (1919) where neutral officials condemned the initial Greek landing and subsequent actions. I am not going to waste my time debunking made-up statistics. Enjoy your imaginary history, but in the real world, İzmir is the name and 1922 is the year your expansionist dreams ended. I'm out.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
This ratio is the policy the Nazis used, I never said you used the same ratio, but my point is that scale matters.
I already answered about your beloved report. Maybe, if you hadn't violated the clauses of previous treaties concerning the protection of Christian minorities, the report would have been taken seriously. But again, it wasn't even a treaty, just a report that was ignored by the governments themselves.
You can use any name you like, mate. I will stick to Smyrna when it comes to the historical context, cause that's how the city used to be called back then.
dontneedit000@reddit
You started this conversation. The first commenter, a Turk, said that the two peoples should be peaceful, and I agree with him, which is true. But you immediately brought up the Greek genocide. You're the one who started this conversation. According to you, we killed Greeks who brought us flowers, but the situation is much different than you think. You invaded our land, looted our villages, and turned your weapons against civilians. If you're talking about looting civilians, we should ask you, the ones who started this, why you did it. As a Turk, I don't even support the singer mentioned in the main topic doing something like that on your land. I didn't even mention it anywhere in the discussion. Stop playing the victim. According to you, Turks even wiped out the dinosaurs. Don't be stupid
Iapetus404@reddit
It was not turkish...
Million Greeks lived in that cities even before the word Turk exist!
Constantinople,Smyrna,Philadelphia,Sinope,Trapezounta,Kerasounta was Greek cities as Athens is a Greek city and Turks occupaed.
Today you lived in territory non liberated...that the truth.
Anatolia never was your land!
dontneedit000@reddit
That’s a very selective reading of history. Yes, there were ancient Greek settlements in parts of coastal Anatolia, but that doesn’t translate into continuous political sovereignty for over two millennia. Between antiquity and the 20th century, the region was ruled by multiple states for ~1500+ years, including the Byzantine and Ottoman empires, with entirely different political and demographic realities. Also, 1919–1922 wasn’t a simple ‘liberation of Greek cities’—it was a post-WWI conflict in which the Greek army advanced into Anatolia as part of the Allied intervention in the Ottoman Empire’s partition process, which escalated into the Greco-Turkish War. Calling it ‘liberation’ is a political framing, not a neutral historical fact. Modern international borders are not determined by ancient ethnic presence but by treaties and post-war settlements (like the Treaty of Lausanne). Otherwise, every region in the world could be claimed based on ancient populations, which is not how modern statehood works
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
Let's be clear, the goal of the 1919-1922 campaign was to liberate only the areas with Greek population, mainly Smyrna. The Greeks wouldn't have annexed all of Anatolia even if they had won. It wasn't about restoring Byzantium and ruling over 14 million Turks, lmao.
dontneedit000@reddit
Even if not the entire Turkish government, the aim was still to harm the Turkish government/Turks bro.
you say it with your own mouth
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
The aim was to free the Greeks of Anatolia from Turkish rule. This is the textbook definition of liberation. It's not my own mouth.
dontneedit000@reddit
It's normal for you to tell your own history according to your own sense of innocence, haha. But that doesn't change the fact that you invaded our lands, plundered our villages, and harmed our people. Open your eyes!
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
You are the one who is unable to see past Turkish propaganda and realize that trying to liberate Smyrna was no different than trying to liberate Thessaloniki, Ioannina, Athens etc. It was part of the struggle for liberation. In all instances, the goal was to annex all areas with Greek populations.
dontneedit000@reddit
Comparing Athens to Smyrna is historically inaccurate. Smyrna was never a part of the Greek state; it was an Ottoman city with a massive Turkish population. Your 'liberation' was an invasion supported by imperial powers to fulfill the 'Megali Idea,' which is why the Inter-Allied Commission (Admiral Bristol Report) criticized the Greek occupation at the time. One man's 'liberation' cannot be built on another nation's ethnic cleansing.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
What do you mean Smyrna was never part of the Greek state?? Athens wasn't a part of the Greek state before its liberation either. What sort of argument is this? Take a moment to think before you type... Also, there were Turkish populations in Thessaloniki, Peloponnese, Crete and even Athens (which was a small town). According to your reasoning, these places shouldn't have been liberated either. Come on now... this was all part of the liberation struggle, whether you like it or not. If you had it your way, Greece wouldn't even exist today. Sorry that we exist LOL.
dontneedit000@reddit
You are missing a massive legal and historical distinction. Athens and Peloponnese were the founding territories of the modern Greek state in 1830. Smyrna, however, was internationally recognized Ottoman territory for 500 years and was never part of your state. There is a huge difference between a nation gaining independence in its core lands and a nation crossing the sea to annex the territory of a neighbor after a world war. As for the 'Turkish populations' in Thessaloniki or Crete; the difference is that Turkey accepted the loss of those lands via treaties. In contrast, the Turkish people never accepted the occupation of Anatolia, fought a war of independence against it, and won. The 'liberation' you speak of for Smyrna was a failed expansionist project (Megali Idea) that even your own allies eventually stopped supporting because it lacked a demographic and legal basis. We don't 'apologize' for your existence; we simply pointed out that your 1919 adventure was a violation of our sovereignty, which is why it failed.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
Why do you think that Peloponnese and Athens were core lands whereas Smyrna wasn't? Simply because the revolution didn't start in Smyrna?
The only difference between the attempt on Smyrna and the attempt on Thessaloniki, Crete, etc. is that the former failed, while the latter was successful. If we had failed to liberate Crete and Thessaloniki, you would also be calling the attempt on those places an "expansionist project". Can you see the absurdity?
dontneedit000@reddit
First of all, use the name İzmir. It has been the official and internationally recognized name for a century. Refusing to use its current name only proves that you are still stuck in an expansionist mindset. Your comparison is legally and historically flawed. The inclusion of Thessaloniki or Crete into Greece was settled through formal treaties (like the Treaty of Athens) and reflected the geopolitical reality of the Balkan Wars. In contrast, the invasion of İzmir was a violation of the armistice terms and lacked any international legitimacy, which is why even your own supporters (the Entente) withdrew their backing. The 'absurdity' is thinking that having a population in a port city gives a state the right to invade a whole continent's hinterland. İzmir was never 'core land' of a Greek state; it was Ottoman territory for half a millennium. You didn't 'fail to liberate' it; you attempted to colonize a land where the vast majority of the province's population was Turkish. That is not liberation—that is an imperialist disaster, and neutral reports like the Inter-Allied Commission of Inquiry (1919) confirm the illegality of your actions.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
First of all, the name Smyrna is the English version, not the Greek one. The Greek name is Smirni. I choose to use neither the Greek name (Smirni) nor the Turkish name (Izmir). Second, I only use the name Smyrna when talking about events of the past, when it was still used internationally. I wouldn't provoke by using it in today's context.
Also, since I see that you like to emphasize treaties, tou might want to look into the provisions about protecting Christian minorities included in the treaty of Athens of 1913 (and of course others before that), which you chose to completely disregard and violate by expelling Greeks between 1914 and 1918. The Greek state intervened to protect the Greek majority areas from exactly that.
Now that the legalistic argument has been dealt with, feel free to explain how Smyrna wasn't a core Greek city. You think that because it had been under Turkish administration for centuries it ceased to be a Greek homeland? It doesn't work like that. The people were always there, just like in Thessaloniki, Crete, the Peloponnese etc.
dontneedit000@reddit
Since you are so fond of legalities, you should know that the Inter-Allied Commission of Inquiry (1919), consisting of British, French, American, and Italian officials, explicitly stated that the Greek landing in İzmir had no military justification and was a violation of the armistice. Even your allies admitted that the 'Greek majority' claims were a fabrication used as a pretext for invasion. As for the population, the 1914 Ottoman Census and international reports confirm that even in the most Greek-populated areas of the Aydin Vilayet, Muslims were the overwhelming majority. One port city’s demographic does not give you the right to occupy a whole region's hinterland. Your attempt to frame a colonialist invasion as a 'protection of minorities' is a century-old propaganda that failed even in 1922. If you are so obsessed with 'victimhood,' remember this: You started the fire. You crossed the sea, invaded our lands, and burned down entire cities while retreating. If you hadn't started this adventure, none of these tragedies would have happened. You act as if you were the only ones who suffered, but you were the aggressors. I don't have as much free time as you do to keep arguing about settled history. I have to study for my exams and build a future, while you seem stuck in 1919. This is my last reply. Don't bother responding. Use the name İzmir next time you talk about our city.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
You are the one who started with legalities. The Turkish state was the first to start the violations of treaties by kicking out Anatolian Greeks. The refugees were coming to Greece en masse because of those violations and Greece couldn't sustain that.
Regardless, why would we care about the reports of colonial powers who did whatever they wanted when it suited them? It's insane that you are actually repeatedly appealing to that. These powers wanted a bigger piece of the pie. The governments themselves completely ignored the reports anyway. The British were occupying Constantinople and yet they called us out for occupying Smyrna? Come on. The reality was that securing the hinterland was the only way to make sure we keep the city. And once more, the Greek state did not claim the entire vilayet of Aydin. The Greeks wanted the coastal areas. To secure those, you needed to control the guerilla fighters of the hinterland.
Oh no, unfortunately you don't get to blame the war for the war crimes which you chose to commit at a scale 10x the Greek ones. Remember, your attempts to ethnically cleanse Smyrniot Greeks had started before 1919, specifically 1914-1918, by violating the kind of treaties you suddenly like to appeal to. You can search for excuses all you want.
Yeah, I don't have much time either. I am not the one who started talking about 1919. Read the thread and maybe you will realize how the conversation started. When you try to question what happened in 1919 and pretend like Izmir Marsi is only about liberation from occupation of "foreign invaders" when in fact it is connected to the genocide of the local Greek civilians, I'm sorry but you will get your answer. And again, you are free to sing these songs as much as you want, but not in Greece, cause inciting hate isn't allowed here. Smyrna is the term I will keep using in the historical context, and not in the modern context, but thanks for the suggestion.
dontneedit000@reddit
There is a fine line between 'liberating' a place and occupying the homeland of another nation. İzmir and Western Anatolia already had an overwhelming Turkish majority at that time. Wanting to unite areas where your own population resides does not legitimize ignoring the existence and sovereign rights of the millions of other people in those areas.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
Lol, no, Smyrna did not have an overwhelming Turkish majority. The Western Anatolian coast had a big Greek majority. The Turkish majorities existed further inland. Smyrna was a historical homeland of the Greeks, with a Greek majority, and the Greek state wanted to liberate it, along with surrounding Greek areas. Any state would have done the same.
dontneedit000@reddit
You are confusing the demographics of a single port city with the entire region. Even if we look at the Aydin Vilayet (which included Smyrna), the 1914 Ottoman Census and neutral Western reports (like the King-Crane Commission) show a clear Turkish majority in the province as a whole. Claiming a right to 'liberate' an entire hinterland based on the population of one urban center is a geopolitical contradiction. As noted by the Inter-Allied Commission of Inquiry in 1919, the Greek occupation did not represent the will of the majority of the region's inhabitants and lacked any legitimate basis under the principle of self-determination.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
First of all, the Greeks didn't claim the entire vilayet. Second, the vast majority of people lived in that "port-city". In order to liberate the port city, you had to liberate part of the hinterlands. Don't pretend like you would have given us the port city if we had left the hinterlands alone. Come on now... The Turks may have been more overall, but the data from 1914 was vastly exaggerated. Also, many Turks living there had recently arrived from the Balkans as refugees. These weren't even locals. Not to mention that hundreds of thousands of Greeks had been deported during World War 1. Either way, the main goal was to liberate Smyrna.
mrbadger30@reddit
Aren’t those a lot of words for “we invaded and you don’t get to invade us back psyche!”?
dontneedit000@reddit
Reducing the issue to the level of a 'playground fight' doesn't debunk my argument; it only shows that you’ve missed the point. In the modern world, borders are governed by international treaties and law (like the Treaty of Lausanne), not by who hit whom first. Otherwise, the world would be trapped in a cycle of endless chaos. You should try reading history through facts rather than emotions
mrbadger30@reddit
If you can’t understand what I’ve said, and force to call it “playground blabla”, that’s on you, lil bro.
Why? Because you are trying to find treaties where there aren’t any. The logic you want to apply for a 1920’s situation applies for post ww2 history. Such treaties weren’t available earlier.
So… are you ready to stop with the bs anacronism, and join the grown ups in reality?
dontneedit000@reddit
Claiming there were no treaties in the 1920s is historically illiterate. Ever heard of the Treaty of Sèvres, the Treaty of Lausanne, or the League of Nations? The entire post-WWI order was built on these legal frameworks. Attempting to justify an invasion today based on 2,500-year-old settlements while ignoring the actual legal settlements of the 20th century is the definition of anachronism. If you think diplomacy started after 1945, you’re the one who needs to join the 'grown-ups' in history class.
mrbadger30@reddit
Tell me when did the Greek Turk war ended and when was the Lausanne treaty signed.
dontneedit000@reddit
The war ended in 1922, and Lausanne was signed in 1923. That is exactly the point. The war concluded with a legal settlement that you are now trying to ignore by cherry-picking dates. My original point was that modern statehood is defined by these treaties, not by ancient presence. Are you suggesting that the post-war legal settlements are invalid because they happened after the fighting? That’s how every peace treaty in human history works. You win, you negotiate, you sign, and that becomes the new legal reality. Welcome to the 20th century.
mrbadger30@reddit
Thank you for proving to everyone I was right
dontneedit000@reddit
Saying 'I was right' without explaining how or why is just a white flag in disguise. You claimed there were no treaties in the 1920s, I listed them. You tried to use the dates of the war to invalidate a peace treaty, and I explained how international law works. If basic historical facts prove you right in your head, then you're living in a different reality. But hey, if pretending you won helps you sleep better, go for it
Ujemegaz@reddit
Thessaloniki was a Turkish majority in 19th century.
Iapetus404@reddit
genocides colonists they don't count
Ujemegaz@reddit
Says the Levantine.
Iapetus404@reddit
says the slav.....
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
No, it wasn't. It was Jewish majority.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
Bro, who tf downvoted this? You can just google it and see I'm right.
Ritzasone@reddit
Greek here what you are saying is true which was common back then nore that justified it , how about making a song about it glorified these actions and sing in in Turkey would that be okey with you?
awakeeee@reddit
Not the guy that you're asking this question to, but as a Turk i could not care less, taking pride in history that we are NOT in any way related to is just silly and i find those who do that pathetic, there is absolutely no difference between us but our language, we all consume the same hollywood shit, we all watch anime, we all work our asses off to buy the latest tech, we all care more about taking pictures more than living the experience.
Sadly, our elected buffoons will keep us divided to get re-elected, nothing makes bank more than creating fake enemies out of neighbours.
7thJohn@reddit
Well said my brother, well said. We should be brother nations, not enemies.
GrecoPotato@reddit
If only it were just politicians but the average Turks nationalism denial of genocides and overall shitty behaviours to others simply shows the opposite.
overbardiche@reddit
Man stop with this larp. You are mortal enemies, its not just your governments
awakeeee@reddit
Mf i don't have enough will to live let aside hating a dude that i never met before because he talks Greek.
overbardiche@reddit
You probably do, you are just suppressing your nationalistic drive with anime and video games.
awakeeee@reddit
Baits were believable back then.
fatdatas@reddit
yes and we celebrate our hatred for thousands of years.. its a tradition by now. Now go spread your love bombs with your jew politicians erasing the weak (palestine, lebanon etc) just so you can keep your orange pedo happy.
mrbadger30@reddit
The problem here is that, while you and me agree this is the correct way to view things, others disagree with us. For example, an Armenian journalist was assassinated in 2007 (not 50 years ago), so the extremist movements might still be alive and well
Puzzleheaded_Sail729@reddit
Izmir Marşı has nothing to do with Greeks, it doesn't mention Greeks in anyway and actually they changed the lyrics, march was about the Caucasus Campaign of WW1 and was also for Enver.
Your comment is a little bit off topic in that sense
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Apart from Smyrna being a greek city for 3000 years when they were burned to death. Turks celebrate this drowning and rape like it's something to be proud of.
You know, renaming the city doesn't change it's history.
Puzzleheaded_Sail729@reddit
Don't do scorched earth tactics next time
NikosStrifios@reddit
Stop occupying foreign lands next time.
Puzzleheaded_Sail729@reddit
lmao
Alternative_Chip_397@reddit
Is there a Turkish song glorifying it?
Fiery_Flamingo@reddit
İzmir March lyrics:
Flowers bloom on top of the mountains of Izmir,
Above it shoots its ray the Golden Sun,
The wavering foes flee like the wind,
Long live, Mustafa Kemal Pasha, glory to you!
The embrace of the prophet is home to martyrs,
The bugles have been called, let's go forward!
The tents have been broken, do not get left behind,
Long live, Mustafa Kemal Pasha, glory to you!
I'm the son of a Turk and I wish to die,
If the earth was made of thorns, on it I would lie
May those who retreat be ashamed of God,
Long live Mustafa Kemal Pasha, glory to you!
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Imagine naming your song after a city that has only had a Turkish majority for 100 years.....
NikosStrifios@reddit
Well if only these lands were not full of Muslim occupiers.....
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
It's been proven. It were Turks who went to a majority greek city and absolutely savaged it. Why would Greeks burn their own houses and wait by the river to be burnt and raped to death. Get real.
Iapetus404@reddit
This was the regular tactic of Ottomans against Greeks and happened thousands of times over 400 years.
Few examples....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chios_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Samothrace_(1821)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naousa_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Psara
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlov_revolt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople_massacre_of_1821
NovaImperiumRomanum@reddit
Good that you have a researcher spirit but showing wikipedia as a source shows you just using it for your ulterior motive wikipedia is not objective it never been when you guys are going to stop play victim and hide your turkophobia under these situations if ottomans would be like you guys said balkans would be assimilated already with 500 years of rule… ottomans never had a harsh policy against its people actually sultan saw them as their own another fact is that ottomans invested heavily in balkans not anatolia just 50 years of rule is enough for european colonisers to assimilate people who lives in the land which they conquered btw giving an example from greek rebellion times is not a good example what about you guys slaughtered turks in area whenever you guys rebel is it a justified act too ? Dont try to cover your own mud by throwing mud on others
Iapetus404@reddit
oh, even if i bring original texts or people from that era you will be still denied because you are in denial.
Ottoman basic economy was slave trade....
There are many texts about the prices of yours slaves.
You kept slavery legal until the early 20th century.
The French nobleman and diplomat, Philippe Canaille, describes how the slave market of Constantinople operated in 1573: Whoever wanted to buy a slave would approach her and lift the veil that covered her head. Then, he would spit in her face, so that if she had been made up by the slave trader, the paint would come off and her true features would be visible. Then, the customer would look into her mouth, counting and feeling her teeth, in order to determine whether they were false, damaged or loose. If he was satisfied with the inspection, the prospective buyer would begin to haggle over the girl’s price with the slave trader.
One of the first travelers to Greece and Asia Minor, the Frenchman Pierre Bellon, lists indicative prices of slaves in the Ottoman Empire in the 16th century, depending on their gender, age and physical condition. A young and beautiful woman was sold for 80-100 ducats, while an old woman for 30-40. The price of a plump teenager was usually 40-50 ducats and a burly man for 60. In comparison, it is reported that during the same period in Venice, the average sailor had an annual income of 22 ducats, an engineer 100, a provincial governor 840 and an ambassador 1800. Older women usually ended up serving as domestic slaves, engaged in housework, as well as light manual labor. On the contrary, young and beautiful girls were most often sold to the harems of various Ottoman officials, while several teenage boys had the same fate. However, most male slaves were intended for heavier work. Those of them who were sturdy and strong-willed were considered a particularly valuable commodity and were always sold at a very good price. They could be used as domestic servants, shepherds, farmers and generally shouldered all kinds of heavy manual labor. Moreover, there were not a few times when the robust slaves, replacing the animals themselves, pulled the plow during plowing.
https://www.fractalart.gr/doyleia-othomaniki-aytokratoria/
Wikipedia is legit source for history, because use sources sources and references
MarcelPappas@reddit
Dude, you are embarrassing all of us, the other greeks...
GrecoPotato@reddit
You are the only one embarrassed because you are a spineless hypocrite. They say it’s a song about kicking our asses when in reality they just committed genocide agaisnt the Greeks of Anatolia and are downvoting the truth. Go fuck yourself.
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Batter embarrassed than not acknowledging the elimination of your people in one the greatest cities.
forwheels@reddit
Genocide isn't kicking ass .
GrecoPotato@reddit
More like a sing of how you committed genocide against the Greek population of Anatolia.
sarevok2@reddit
seeing her or any turk really complain about open speech while they have ''anti-turkish sentiment'' laws in place, seems hellava ironic
Objective-Expert771@reddit
managed to be genocided in an offensive war they started. must be a skill issue
dontneedit000@reddit
Yes sir we pointed weapons at their people on their land, but rest assured we had no ill intentions. Yet they still subjected us to genocide. Trust me sir I am white.
New_Parking9991@reddit
yep,we should really start being more strict about these stuff.
She can play victim all she wants and go back to wherever she came from and take her propaganda with her.
herhangibirperson@reddit
We need to be stricter with Greek tourists coming to Istanbul and opening Greek flags infront of Hagia Sophia. It has been tolerated for too long
New_Parking9991@reddit
yes indeed,i saw the recent events and hopefully you will keep them in jail and if possible dont return them to greece.
Brainrot religious nutjobs not good you can keep them.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
we recently banned that Albanian nationalist journalist who implied that "Jannina" is Albanian.
& some North Macedonian singers, (in the North) who went full nationalist.
WorldlinessDouble779@reddit
No offense but Janinnina is part of Çameria and really does belong to Albania. You can’t deny history .
New_Parking9991@reddit
Ioannina is a greek city.
If a journalist visits greece and goes to certain area, and keep posting on SM how ''X'' greek city is really albanian, how ''Y'' greek village should be albanian, posts more irredentist stuff etc...
Then yes the state will ban him entry,it is not rocket science.
We have thousands of albanians visiting, no problem, we even had your prime minister make speech for his voters in greece etc..
But obvious irredentism content and talk no thank you.
WorldlinessDouble779@reddit
You wish it was a Greek city. Who’s giving you history lessons? Your Greek teacher?
Typical Greek comment. Let me guess, everything is yours ? Everything created was by Greeks right?
You didn’t slaughter/ethnically cleanse women and children in Cameria right?
Only thing you Greeks created was homosexuality.
New_Parking9991@reddit
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
"why does Greece spend so much on military"
Albania: "Jannina, Epiros, historically Albanian lands"
North Macedonia: "Solun, Macedonia r ours"
Turkey: yeah.
(& this is, apparently, so-called progressives).
Ujemegaz@reddit
Imagine being fearful of one journalist...
Flokithedog@reddit
what time in history? Northern Epirus is Greek still and was always Greek. We even fought and won it back in ww2. Should is belong to Greece? The Albanians who lived there came after the Greeks there, and co habited with the Greeks. At no point was it theirs?
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
Greece liberated Ioannina following "Battle of Bizani" (u guys should read into it, it's one of our impressive land victories) - the final battle of Balkan war 1.
ironically, Albanian irregulars were fighting on the side of Turkey, lol.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Pathetic.
DimWay1@reddit
Bro you are literally an unemployed troll. In your profil it shows that you post 10 nationalist comments per hour.
Unless you get paid for that, then I would respect it.
But if you do it for fun.....bro....
mrgleman@reddit
History doesn’t begin in 1300 , Greeks live in Epirus since the ancient times , Illyrians tried to invade it and got beaten by Epirus and Sparta , Albanians didn’t live in Epirus until Middle Ages and they were still minority.
Epirus in fact is the proto - Greek area , literally the first Greek speakers in history are from there
Ujemegaz@reddit
Exactly. A journalist.
Imperator_Gr@reddit
"journalist" fixed it for you.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Yeah man. Anyone whom Greeks don't like is a fake a journalist. The said journalist has sent corrupt officials to prison with investigative reports. For a country claiming EU values, is such hypocrisy to deny a journalist the freedom of movement, whether you agree with his views or not.
DimWay1@reddit
The whole career of this "journalist" is to monetize albanian irredentism against Greece. Sorry we don't facilitate his business by allowing him access to our villages. He is really not welcome if he wants to come here saying either we are Albanians, or that we "stole" albanian Land, when my granpa's name is in the books of our church for centuries.
My opiniom as a Greek from a village near Giannena.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Janina is historically Albanian, and you know it very well if you are from those parts. Journalist did not say lies and slanders, but only the truth. Just because truth hurts you does not mean you have the right to unjustly deprive him of freedom of movement, that is an European basic right.
DimWay1@reddit
Plus freedom of movement between countries is smth that applies for EU citizens. He has no right to enter our land.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Not much of your land judging by the way you overreact, is it...
DimWay1@reddit
You are the delusional one claiming my village is yours, buddy. Guess who has the issues.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Not mine. Cam's. You village is in Cameria.
DimWay1@reddit
Then how come are we the indogenous people greek?
Ujemegaz@reddit
Authochthonous from Anatolia?
DimWay1@reddit
Facts: Greek refugees from anatolia were 2.5% in Epirus. There was never a significant settlement movement. Check it for yourself.
Greek refugees from Minor Asia established where the exchangable turkish populations that left Greece lived, especially in Macedonia. And also Athens, while the rest scattered throughout Greece.
So all the Greeks here, are Epirotes. Like me.
Try diversifying your sources.
Ujemegaz@reddit
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
mrgleman@reddit
“ historically Albanian “
Albanians come to Epirus as minority in Middle Ages. Even if we consider all the Illyrian tribes as Albanian , Illyrians never set their foot in Epirus. ( only as an attempt to invade it but they got beaten by Epirus and Spartans )
Ujemegaz@reddit
Yeah yeah, middle ages doesn't matter. We were here before nowadays Greeks, who originate mostly from Levant and Anatolia after Seljuks kicked them.
mrgleman@reddit
Is education illegal at your place ? Albanians come to Epirus around 1300 A.D , Greeks were in Epirus since around 1000 B.C , that’s around 2300 before Albanians.
The first mention of Albanians coming to Epirus was by Roman Byzantine emperor Kantakouzinos who wrote a book about the history of the region in 1300 A.D , writing that Albanoi ( Albanians obviously ) appeared in Epirus and central Greece by waves of migrations , he describe them as warrior and farmer groups .
But of course you can keep dreaming what you wish for and make us laugh with your education level :)
Ujemegaz@reddit
Tell us about your origin mate. I could trace the origin of my family up to 17th century, i bet you would have to visit Black Sea or Levant to find your roots. Or Izmir.
mrgleman@reddit
Also , just to make a bit more fun of how clueless you are.
Even if we pretend that you are right that Seljuks kicked out Greeks ( which they didn’t , they just assimilated them )
Seljuk conquest happened at 1070 , still 230 years before Albanian migrations happen in Epirus :)
And your ancestry why does it matter ? I am not from Epirus to trace my ancestry there. Also Greeks from Anatolia lived there since 300 BC , what are you trying to say ? That there are Greeks from Anatolia ? Everyone knows that 😂
And finally , all paleo Balkan people carry substantial Anatolian farmer from Neolithic period , Greeks and Albanians since they are both native to Balkans both have high ANF dna
( 55% in Greeks and 60% in Albanians ) which used to be higher in past before Slavic invasions in Balkans
Ujemegaz@reddit
You twist facts and intentionally confuse Arvanite migrations with Albanians. Plus, Arvanites did not settle in Epirus, but in Morea and Attica. And Epirus had mostly Vlachs and Albanians in middle ages. Epirotes were not Greeks. Macedonians were not Greeks. If they were Greeks, then Greece would have been a country of 200 milion people nowadays. The only "authocthonous" Greeks with native Balkans dna that you vlaim, are the assimilated Arvanites and Vlachs. Nowadays Greeks mostly come from Anatolia and probably Levant. Spewing bs about paleo balkan and slavic invasions won't help your cause neither.
mrgleman@reddit
Haha no I don’t confuse Arvanites with Albanoi , Arvanites migrated to Attica and Peloponnese , Albanoi to Epirus , it’s literally recorded since Middle Ages , you can search the documents by yourself ( if you know how to read )
And epirotes and Macedonians were both Greek tribes , and where do you get the number 200 million ? 😂
The entire Roman Empire from Spain to Iran was 70 million people , Greece was always small in numbers , same as all Balkans.
Tell me , are you one of these people who claim Romans were ancient Albanians ? And one of those who think Napoleon the French emperor was Albanian from south Italy ? 😂😂😂
Anyway it was nice talking to you , enjoy your day Illyrian emperor 😂
DimWay1@reddit
The first time we saw an albanian in my village was in the 90's Greeks have been in Giannena and Dodoni and Himarra for the last three millenials. Ancient Epirus, Byzantine Empire, Despotate of Epirus, Greece. Dont try to feel important this way, its pathetic.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Because all Albanians were wiped off after ww2. Ask your elders. Their silence will tell you all....
DimWay1@reddit
You mean the nazi who massacred Paramythia and then run away defeated and afraid of trials?
Luckily enough, we didnt have them in Giannena, they lived in Paramythia.
Ujemegaz@reddit
You can't cover lies with more lies, can you. Janian was Albanian, and you are residing over Cam's lands, not yours. You are occupiers, regardless of politics, and this is the truth. And that is why authorities in Greece are so afraid of the truth ao that they ban every Cam Albanian and journalist that speak up from entering Greece. And i am glad they act this way, so that Albanians are reminded from time to time of those lands.
DimWay1@reddit
Cry
Ujemegaz@reddit
😂 you were the one talking about Despotate and Byzant, where did you learn that shit
DimWay1@reddit
Ok, now I see that youre trolling
Substratas@reddit
Which values? 😂
Knephas@reddit
As we mfing should.
Substratas@reddit
This is the most Balkan thing I’ve ever read.
Imperator_Gr@reddit
Yes.
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
This means you should basically close your borders to people holding Turkish passports - please do, I detest inconsistency.
Imperator_Gr@reddit
You can sing your nationalist songs on your side of the border as much as you like.
herhangibirperson@reddit
Hope you won't cry when we kick out Greeks who come to Hagia Sophia and open their nationalist flags. You can open your flags in Greece as much as you like
Imperator_Gr@reddit
Lol ,Why would I? Fafo I am glad we agree komsu
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
I am not a nationalist.
Imperator_Gr@reddit
Agreed. But she is.
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
She is clearly a Kemalist, but it is difficult to believe this was politically motivated or incentivized.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
eh?
there r no Turkish nationalists in Greece lol.
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
I guess I would ask if the audience sang along.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
nope.
there r no Turks, there r Muslim Greeks.
& there's no Turkish nationalism.
RelentlessKnightmare@reddit
I can clearly see the butt hurt you got from the Turks but saying there are no Turks in Greece is a stretch. Just a simple search will show you how many Turks in the country you call home. We used live in each other's lands during the Ottoman Era, one side of my family was even from Crete. So what the fuck you mean there are no Turks in today's Greece. In Thrace there are still few who live in their ancestors lands. Same goes for Greeks who live in Turkey. This was normal thing for centuries, it's like you have never even heard of it. You are blinded with your hate my friend, too much of it will consume you.
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
She sang this to a crowd that awkwardly listened to it in silence and promptly started leaving the venue then, got it.
Imperator_Gr@reddit
Does it matter if the songs she is singing are clearly intented to inflamed tensions?
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
nah,
lol.
only people that act "nationalist" in Greek territory (whether it's flags, songs, or "wolf" gestures).
the rest r free to continue funding Greek defense spending.
Objective-Expert771@reddit
do you offer any special packages? i would like to spend on defense budget and im not nationalist.
New_Parking9991@reddit
if you are a singer and plan to make concerts to promote your nationalistic ideology to create problems,then yes you will not be allowed entry.
If you are just a regular turk going around then its whatever. We got a bunch of nationalists from all over balkans, but organized stuff is different.
We even had politicians from turkey with grey wolf signs and other bs when they visit greek side of thrace.enough is enough at some point.
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
I'm squarely an anti-nationalist and I am not Kemalist at all, but I can't help but feel it is an overreaction. These are elements ingrained in the Turkish ethos, and also İzmir Marşı in particular has become somewhat of an anti-AKP symbol itself. I expect she was singing to a Turkish audience and it was received well.
I fully understand how it comes across from a Greek perspective, but it is difficult to imagine this was meant as propaganda against Greece or even as nationalist propaganda... people break into singing İzmir Marşı for no reason during Rakı-fuelled office parties on a Thursday night, in Turkey, so to speak.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
I'm sure you'll be this open minded if a Greek singer comes over and organizes a concert about something like the Greek revolution against the Ottoman Empire and what happened to the Turks of Tripolitsa for example. Clown.
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
Okay, that is not what happened, but yes. I would, clown.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
No, you don't get to dictate what the Greek singer will sing about - free speech, remember? So, will you clap while someone celebrates the massacre of your ancestors in your own country? There are already songs mocking the Turks and what happened to them in the Peloponnese, the singer wouldn't even have to write new lyrics. You ready to clap, friend?
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
I’m not some free speech warrior here. Greece should go ahead and “blacklist” İzmir Marşı if it has the legal framework to do this and if it is this sensitive about it.
All of this is beside the point. This woman was just oblivious to her context, not some provocateur. Her intent matters, and it matters whether the song that she sang is in fact demeaning to or dismissive of Greeks and Greece. İzmir Marşı has zero open references to Greeks (it has references to defeated enemies running away, getting suppressed).
You think you’re telling me something new by telling me Turks are the enemies in your war songs? That you have nationalist songs mocking Turks? In your example, the distinction is clear for me. One celebrates the Greek Revolution as a historical event and so it is okay, even if it has a reference or two about felling a Turkish enemy. If it explicitly celebrates a massacre, or demeans a people, it is in bad taste no matter what nationality it was against. One is okay, the other is not.
New_Parking9991@reddit
not sure if serious, but if you cant understand what her purpose was singing that song in komotini then not much we can say.
As i said ,we got tons of weird nationalists in greece from all over the world,especially balkans ,if this was a random tourist we'd prolly not have problem.
I cant remember the politicians name exactly, ozdag? or uzmit odag? what's his name, dude came to visit and brought out the pot puri of nationalism in thrace when he visited. We get alot of pressure and propaganda there funded by your side.
Recently we got the matter brought up again by Erdo about the muftis,so patience is running out here.
People wanna make funded propaganda do it elsewhere.
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
Her purpose in singing that song in Komotini is that she was catering to a very specific Turkish audience.
I don't know whether Işın Karaca ranks closer to a "patriot" or an actual nationalist, but she is not comparable to Ümit Özdağ. Ümit Özdağ is a straight out far-right racist. It's crazy you ever allowed him into Greece.
New_Parking9991@reddit
he is not the only politician from turkey that stirred up trouble. Many come here,and there is alot of funding as well.
She was catering to a specific turkish audience with a very specific purpose and using a song that is viewed in a very specific way here. She knew what she was doing. We dont tolerate it here,possibly if it was Mykonos or some island or some other touristy place she could have been given the benefit of the doubt.
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
I hear you, and I understand why Komotini is a more sensitive context from the Greek perspective, but I disagree with you when you say "she knew what she was doing" unless you know something I don't, because like I said, it looks like she just did what Kemalists do at an office party on a Thursday oblivious to where she was.
New_Parking9991@reddit
so she did not know where she was giving a concert and the context? I find this really hard to believe and i am guessing the greek goverment as well that is why the ban.
pinelogr@reddit
You know being allowed in a foreign country is not a right. It's a privilege that can be lost.
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
I'm not defending her right to enter Greece. I just think it is an overreaction given she is not an actual threat to Greece.
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Singing about genocide in Smyrna. Occupation of Cyprus. Yes suck it.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
exactly.
she's UK-based so she doesn't need a visa (unlike Turk citizens).
the fact she's non-EU makes it even "easier" to deny entry, deport, & issue a ban. (thanks, Brexit).
basically, do that shit in ur country, (amongst yourselves, Arabs, & Kurds).
mrgleman@reddit
Singing whatever you like in your country isn’t a problem , singing those songs in Greece was the problem , would Turkey allow Greek nationalist bands to sing war marches in Istanbul ?
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
Would we? Probably not, but in an ideal world we should.
mrgleman@reddit
In ideal world you would like a Greek far right / nationalist band sing war marches in your country ?
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
In an ideal world there are no far-right nationalists. That aside, yes. In an ideal world, a Greek band should be able to play wartime Greek marches in Istanbul to an open audience.
I just have to be clear that in Turkey's reality what transpired here is nowhere near "far-right."
notnotnotnotgolifa@reddit
Agreed, threat to national security and feelings of 14 year old hoi4 players
Imperator_Gr@reddit
You are at least naive to think that people that use concerts to push their nationalist agenda should be allowed to enter Greece.
notnotnotnotgolifa@reddit
What are the risk outcomes
Imperator_Gr@reddit
Μην κάνεις την πάπια κουμπάρε.
notnotnotnotgolifa@reddit
Ιλικρινά, εσύ τι νομίζεις εν να έννι οι κίνδυνοι άμαν της επιτραπεί να μπει μες στη χώρα;
What is she going to cause riots? Its nationalist posturing and not some counter terrorism measure
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
She's not welcome here, simple as that. If you're such a fan, call her your to town and have her sing provocative songs against Cyprus while you clap, otherwise, shut up.
Playful-Alfalfa5729@reddit
You seem to be trying to talk to the deaf an blind my friend.
Imperator_Gr@reddit
Εντάξει δουλευόμαστε τώρα μεταξύ μας. Since you need to spell this out to you I will oblige. Radicalising people is bad. Radicalised people are a threat. She shouldn't try to push her radicalising agenda in Greece.
Spacecruiser96@reddit
Bro is angry cause Cyprus is not selectable in HoI4
Possible-Scarcity-91@reddit
Yes, she can go f*** herself. Persona non grata. Go to Turkey, never come back to Greece. If the tables were turned and this had happened by a western singer in a muslim country, we all know what her penalty would be. F her many times over. FAFO.
herhangibirperson@reddit
Greeks coming to Hagia Sophia and opening nationalist flags need to be kicked out of the country and told to go fuck themselves
Immediate_Safety_131@reddit
Good, why would a Turkish singer go to greece and sing nationalistic songs? Sounds like she wants to provoke the greeks and then act like a victim! Turks always wants to be victims
herhangibirperson@reddit
Hope you won't cry when we kick out Greek tourists who come to Hagia Sophia to provoke Turks
Ujemegaz@reddit
She sang for her own community, not Greece. How do you draw a line between nationalist and patriotic.
BadBasik@reddit
I have no relation to this, one way or the other, but us former Yugoslavs get similar provocations from time to time.
I'll just quote some smart guy I don't know the name of, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes".
SufficientAccount211@reddit
Can we not be labelling us as “former Yugoslavs” and actually use our real names?
BadBasik@reddit
Easier than saying Serbs, Croatians, Bosnians, Montenegrians(pretty sure I wrote that wrong), Slovenians and Macedonians.
Alternative_Chip_397@reddit
What is singing playing stupid games now?
Affectionate-Arm-405@reddit
In Greece we reply to your question (stating the obvious)
"What is it that meows up on the roof?"
Alternative_Chip_397@reddit
Yk what fuck this tge izmir marş is fantastic you invaded lost and I am absolutely proud of that if anyone in Greece or anywhere else in the world has a problem with that know that its on for life so fuck peace
Alternative_Chip_397@reddit
Huh?
spRitE86--@reddit
yes, totally justified
Ujemegaz@reddit
This happens all the time with Cam Albanians, reporters and journalists. EU country.
Imperator_Gr@reddit
How many Albanian people live and work in Greece and how many nationalists provocateurs have been denied entry/deported?
Ujemegaz@reddit
Was ever any Greek ever deported for publicly calling for Hellenization of Albania and annexation of Vorio-Epir? Many MP-s visit Albania every now and then, and no one bothers to show them back at the border.
Imperator_Gr@reddit
Then ban them. But no Greek government in the last at least 30years has pursued such a policy. This is your fearmongering. Try respecting minorities instead of persecuting them.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Why ban them. Now that you mentioned the minorites, how come Arvanites are such a taboo in Greece.
DimGenn2@reddit
Arvanites themselves don't consider themselves a minority.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Everyone in Greece speaks on their behalf, but Arvanites themselves 🤣
DimGenn2@reddit
We literally have arvanites in this sub. Make a post and ask them about it.
Ujemegaz@reddit
https://www.shtepiaelibrit.com/store/sq/historia-shqiptare/346-arvanitet-dhe-prejardhja-e-grekeve-aristidh-p-kola.html?srsltid=AfmBOooT3dicAlKI9t_T6uGpGuNu-ILb2G_RyMgnp5wsuLZ-5ZJ19a1S
DimGenn2@reddit
Make a post, and ask them about it.
Imperator_Gr@reddit
Who said it is a taboo? Lol Is this what they teach you at school?
Ujemegaz@reddit
Greece does not recognise minorities. Expecrs other countries which have recognised all minorities and promote respecrive folk dances, language and customs and protects them by law. You can't really become more hypocrite than that. An arrogant hypocrite, even.
Imperator_Gr@reddit
That's not even remotely true. I guess the 12 plus Arvanite Prime Minister of Greece were really feeling repressed.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Is Albanian language taught to Aravnites? Thought so...
Imperator_Gr@reddit
Lol the Arvanites speak their own dialect. They shouldn't be forced to learn the language of a foreign state. Maybe the 12 Prime Ministers can explain to you why Greeks learn Greek at school and not Albanian.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Then why Greeks of Albania who speak a dialect of Greek are forced to learn Greek in schools. Btw, Arvanites speak Tosk dialect, which is basicly literary Albanian. Spare the slanders about prime ministers, we also had Italian politicians who do not know Albanian, but the villages and towns were not deprived of Albanian language, and half if them were from Morea originally.
Imperator_Gr@reddit
Ok that does not make sense. Why are Italian politicians pertinent to this conversation? Also Greek north and south of the border is the same. Please spare me from the repression talk since Arvanites fought, liberated and became an integral part Greece and not Albania. What do you think that is?(It is a rhetorical question do not bore me with an attempt at a reply)
Ujemegaz@reddit
The facts are simple. Greece does not recognise minorities, yet you had the audacity to speak up about respecting rights of Greek minority, which has its own municipalites a designated zone where all signs are in Greek, and Greek language is taught in schools. The state protects their folk songs, dances, attire and not only Greeks, but Macedonians have their municipality as well. Arvanites on the other hand, not only are assimilated through policies, but no attempt is made to preserve what remains of them, and whenever the topic is about them, Greeks get triggered as if their whole existance is at risk.
I mentioned the Arbereshe, Albanians of Italy, because their situation is exactly the same, yet they were not forced to forget their language and roots, because even a nationalist Italy of the 19th century had the decency to respect a people which had contributed in the fight against Ottomans with Skanderbeg, and the support Arbereshe gave to Garibaldi. They could have assimilated them easily, but did not do so even when most of them had already migrated toward the US and Australia.
GrayWolf9560@reddit
If it was for provocateurs denying entry we should have put Fredi Beleri aka Fredis Beleris you Eurodeputy wannbe Greek, before a firing squad for treason not just deny entry. You are just a butthurt people thats it
QuarianGuy@reddit
Doesn't seem very liberal or democratic.
HomeworkResident8510@reddit
A Turk’s opinion about democracy equates a vegan’s opinion about how a steak can be best cooked.
QuarianGuy@reddit
How rude neighbor!
0a_boy0@reddit
Of course it is reasonable for them. Aren’t they the ones who massacred Turkish cypriots?
HomeworkResident8510@reddit
Womp womp
dincere@reddit
This song is less racist than the national anthem of many countries including Greece
TheOneWithTheNephews@reddit
Please, show me where the Greek national anthem is racist.
I'll wait.
dincere@reddit
Instead of idly waiting just read the complete 158 stanzas. The racism is so blunt I'm afraid it'll get me banned if I copy here.
TheOneWithTheNephews@reddit
Oh no, the horror. Take a risk, show me just one racist verse so that you won't get banned.
dincere@reddit
"fire" "fire" is their shout
Nowhere in the song getting the artist banned is anybody called a cur
TheOneWithTheNephews@reddit
Do you even know what the poet is talking about? The poem is a war song is essence. This verse, in Greek, calls the enemy dogs, following verses that talk about the enemy being in panic, scared, and running in fear, like dogs when you scare them.
This is racism to you? Lmao
dincere@reddit
Doesn't change the objective fact that, in comparison, this one has more racist elements than the song that got the Greeks to ban the artist
TheOneWithTheNephews@reddit
I'm not defending anything, I'm saying this isn't racism. This is a war song written after Greek civilians, mostly women and kids, were slaughtered by the Ottoman army in various locations around Greece. Were talking about genocide here. And here you are, criticizing a song that calls the genocidal Ottoman army "dogs", totally ignoring historical facts and context because that doesn't fit your narrative.
And even if you do so, no, calling the retreating enemy "dogs" is not racism. Look up what the word means.
dincere@reddit
The genocide was performed by the Greeks but no matter, I understand that as saying this is not racist you implicitly accept that the song Greeks banned the artist for is also not racist.
TheOneWithTheNephews@reddit
Really? The massacres of civilians in Chios, Samothraki, Psara, Rhodes, Kasos and so many other places was performed by the Greeks? You're very objective and not biased at all, bravo!
I didn't say the song of this artist is racist, I think it's provocative and only serves nationalism, I don't want Turks or Greeks doing this shit in 2026, and I'd condemn a Greek artist doing this in Turkey too, and I'd be happy to hear he's banned from Turkey.
dincere@reddit
I respect your point, you say nobody should provoke the other side and I agree with that.
On the other hand the song in question is the number one rallying song for anti Erdoğan people, and they tend to make their vacations in Greece to spite Turkish hotels restaurants etc which are being run by pro Erdoğan people. The reason some Turkish artists hold concerts etc in Greece is a result of these people being there and the song is the specific song for the people who visit Greece. What I'm trying to say is, try looking behind a specific line in a song that's mostly pastoral. The reason it's specifically sung in Greece is because it's the favorite song of the kind of people who love to make vacations in Greece. I'm 100% sure the people who sing it there are the people who have no problems with Greece and enjoy being around you guys b
zoranss7512@reddit
Greece gets to choose who can enter Greece. You aren't owed entry. Persona non grata
Missglad1@reddit
Nice, now she can sing on erdogam dick 24/7
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
sure.
how do u know she's pro-Erdogan?
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
She isn't. She sent AKP a cease-and-desist letter once upon a time for using one of her songs in a political rally or something.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
exactly.
clueless people always go, Turkish nationalist = Erdogan.
& this is a significant issue,
that "white-washes" the terrible opposition. (worse, from my perspective).
CypriotGreek@reddit
Don’t forget it was the opposition that it invaded us in Cyprus, and bombed Attaturk’s house to intentionally cause the Instanbul pogrom. The CHP has been solely responsible for the utter and complete destruction of Greek presence in Asia Minor.
platypusdontlie@reddit
Source?
CypriotGreek@reddit
Google is free. Ironically enough I’m surprised that even in this case the Turks STILL deny that it happened. I thought y’all were open and transparent about the pogroms having started intentionally by the government.
Didn’t yall also execute the dude who did it? Why deny it now?
platypusdontlie@reddit
So its Demokrat Parti and not Cumhuriyet Halk Partisi like you claimed?
TheSocDem@reddit
It was DP that orchastrated the pogrom not the CHP.
Never thought I would ever see a Greek attempt to white wash CUP and the three pashas.
CypriotGreek@reddit
Oh wow, my bad, so it wasn’t the CHP, it was the CHP split-off party with basically the same ideology, involving people tied to the same political sphere just a few years apart. Huge difference, right?
And no one is “whitewashing” the CUP or the Three Pashas. I’m clearly talking about modern Turkish history here, not ottoman history. I thought you guys loved making that distinction, “that’s the past, this is modern Turkey.” What happened to that argument now?
TheSocDem@reddit
Yeah sure buddy. CHP and DP had the same ideology which is why they were ousted and had their senior leadership hanged by the kemalist military right?
You said the CHP was "solely responsible" for the Greek genocide. By placing all the blame on the CHP you're completely absolving a lot of CUP officials who never joined the CHP (such as the three pashas) of any wrongdoing.
CypriotGreek@reddit
Nitpicking over semantics . You know exactly what I’m talking about, but you’d rather dissect wording than address the point.
The reality is that the same broader kemalist political and ideological movement, whether you want to split it into CHP, DP, or whoever, was responsible for what happened to the Greeks in Anatolia. Trying to play this game of “no, this specific faction, not that one” doesn’t change that.
And it’s wild seeing these kinds of leftist talking points mixed with nationalism. You don’t really see that combo the same way here in Greece.
TheSocDem@reddit
I never disputed CHP's role in the demise of the Greeks in Anatolia. I just corrected the misinformation you were spewing out that absolved a lot of shitty factions like the islamists and CUP of any wrongdoing and you got upset over it.
Where is the nationalism? Is not letting Greeks spread literal misinformation Turkish nationalism now?
Ujemegaz@reddit
🤣 as if it were another party, it won't have invaded 🤣 you really have to demonize every single one of them, haven't you.
Iapetus404@reddit
pro-erdogan or pro-kemalists is just different side of same coin.
Turkish nationalism
notthebesthuh@reddit
Imagine thinking Erdoğan is a Turkish nationalist 😆
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Shes not even Turkish cypriot but a settler. How cringe..
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
She's London-born and her mother is a Turkish Cypriot. She is most definitely not a settler.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
"there are no Turkish cypriots in ba sing se"
GrecoPotato@reddit
Good riddance. If you are going to sing genocidal songs in a country and then cry that you aren’t allowed to go in you absolutely deserve it. What a massive hypocrite same with many Turkish comments in here who support this. Truly spineless hypocritical behaviour.
Bloubloum@reddit
Entering a country is not a right.
We did well.
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
She's not even Turkish cypriot but an imported settler.
Cringe as hell and should banned from visiting any EU country.
Imagine a German singing about ethnic cleansing trying to enter Israel...
MontgomeryEagle@reddit
The last line might be celebrated these days.
Cultourist@reddit
That's not correct. She was born in London to a Turkish Cypriot mother and a father from Mainland Turkey.
Affectionate-Arm-405@reddit
She also sang it in komotini. Which makes it more dangerous... Good ridance
Punkmo16@reddit
I remember Greek singers who sung Greek national songs and marches being able to freely enter Turkey. Seems like you guys are obsessed and have inferiority complex, it’s not that deep.
Yavannia@reddit
You were saying? https://en.parapolitika.gr/world/188543/turkey-excludes-cyprus-from-un-climate-conference-eu-condemns/
Punkmo16@reddit
Well Turkey doesn’t recognize Cyprus, what were you expecting? Would you invite Northern Cyprus if you were the host?
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Cringe.
You illegally occupy their country.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Your occupied it long before we even arrived there.
We prevented you from committing genocide and now ur mad that we're not letting you burn the ballpark again
BlackberryHoliday734@reddit
Who occupied Cyprus? You mean Greeks since Mycenaean times? 1400 BCE? Cause it has always been Greek since antiquity? Lmfao. You guys are fucking hilarious.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Lmao, try again
BlackberryHoliday734@reddit
Literally a military junta backed by the USA and the CIA. Not a legitimate government.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Cope harder
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
400 to 300 tcyp to gcyp death in 20 years.
It's understandable why you're so delusional.
You're objectively a propoganda filled pariah state. You're ranked 157th below Pakistan and in the same category as Afghanistan and russia in freedom of press. Youre classed by the economist as semi dictatorship.
It's illegal to insult erdogan..
more women are killed every year in turkey by their own husbands, brothers and fathers than all deaths of tcyp in Cyprus.
Women killed in turkey in 2025: 600 Turkish cypriot deaths in Cyprus 1960 to 1974: 400
Are you genociding you women too?
BlackberryHoliday734@reddit
What inferiority complex? Lmfao.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
right, lol.
we literally have Turks, on this sub, creating (almost daily) threads, "how similar Greece & Turkey are"
even some larping as Greek. lol.
but... apparently, WE r the ones w/ "inferiority-complex" ???
lol.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
We are over 85 million people. Theres bound to be some bad apples
mrgleman@reddit
Which Greek singers sing nationalist songs in Turkish cities ? She wasn’t banned for sing the songs in any random place , she sing them in Greek city , especially Izmir marsi which is related to the Turkish victory of 22 and it’s connected to the genocide that followed
Punkmo16@reddit
Dude I am not even a Kemalist but that song has nothing to do with genocide. Greece was the aggressor country in the war and Turkey celebrating its victory is nothing abnormal. If you ask me I would prefer İzmir’s local Greeks would never leave and still live in peaceful coexistence with other’s as well as Turkish locals in various Balkan cities, but unfortunately nationalism came in and different groups built nation states based on their ethnicity’s which resulted in lots of people expelled out of their homes, not only in Balkans but throughout across world. Without recognizing that this goes both ways for each side, it really sounds quite hypocritical for us to hear you guys using a victim card. Especially for the late period of Empire in which lots Turks being massacred and expelled from their homes.
8NkB8@reddit
Greece is still home to some of these people. In places like Xanthi, Komotini and Rhodes a sizeable presence continues Can Turkey say the same for Istanbul or the two islands? No, not with any seriousness.
Even after the Balkan War, Greece did not expel the Muslims despite that narrative being falsely parrotted. Of course people will leave when their homeland changes sovereignty, as many like Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's mom did, but to compare that or the exchange of 1923 with the violent expulsion of the Greeks on the opposite shore beginning in 1914 is dishonest.
mrgleman@reddit
The song itself isn’t about genocide , I didn’t clarify that clearly , but the massacre of Izmir is connected to that , let’s not pretend the endless jokes “ we threw Greeks to sea , we teach them swimming “ from every spectrum of Turkish society from an average forum user to athletes ( recently ) , politicians , journalists and virtually a huge chunk of your society.
That song is rooted with that , I get it for you it’s not like that so again , sing it in your country , anywhere in the world you wish to sing it , but not in Greece.
Punkmo16@reddit
I agree that joking about “throwing Greeks into sea” is quite distasteful, and I can see why you wouldn’t like such a song to be sung.
I just want to say the song itself doesn’t have even any mention of Greeks or Greece by name. It’s of course about recapturing İzmir, but it’s main focus is praising Mustafa Kemal and doesn’t have any humiliating comments about Greeks whatsoever. Today British, French and German are well beyond their way more recent and bloodier conflicts, and doesn’t have hostilities anywhere near us. I wish we could stop being stuck in the past and look for future possibilities between our nations.
Ok-Ground-7677@reddit
The more I hear about the two, the more I notice people defending Turkije sure sounds exactly like people defending Israel, weird.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Greece has issues with every single neighbour, maybe the problem is Greece.
TheOneWithTheNephews@reddit
Lmao that's rich coming from an Albanian. If you were just a bit smarter, you'd understand the irony in your sentence.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Lmao?
TheOneWithTheNephews@reddit
First time mommy let you use the internet?
Google it.
atrixospithikos@reddit
Sing about ethnic cleansing and genocide to the victims and then play the victim when she is not welcome?
Extension-Detail-258@reddit
British? Where?
physoc@reddit
Unfortunately, it s true that Greeks and Greek Cypriots illegally deny entry for “some” tourist at the borders. However, the same situation does not happen on Turkish sides.
Pcful_Citizen@reddit
I like Greece so I am with them on this one 🇬🇷
BankBackground2496@reddit
This is the same reasoning that led to this situation.
You can rethink it based on principles and still say she deserved it.
Pcful_Citizen@reddit
My principle is that I like Greece
BankBackground2496@reddit
My fault, forgot this is a Balkans sub.
Ok-Monitor-241@reddit
Well I don't get it why Izmir Marşı is a problem for my neighbours?
mrgleman@reddit
Izmir massacre that followed Turkish victory
Ok-Monitor-241@reddit
I have a bad news for you then almost all of Turkish people sing Izmir Marsı no matter we are Nationalist or not and we do not see it as a patriot song we see it as a bridge of the republic.
mrgleman@reddit
Good sing it in your country , not in greece , she was banned for singing those songs in Greece not for minding her business in some other country
Ok-Monitor-241@reddit
Still Turks don't think it is about greece maybe allied powers we sing it for the sake of republic so maybe she sang for that You guys are overthinking it tbh
Ok-Monitor-241@reddit
Also if I am correct she sang it on East Thrace which is known as with Turkish minorities
mrgleman@reddit
She sang it in western Thrace in a city that has Muslim minority , which some of these Muslims are Turks , still it’s irrelevant whether the Turks there are 0.1% or 100% , such songs can not be accepted in Greece , same way Greek war songs won’t be accepted in Turkey
mrgleman@reddit
I seriously doubt that but I’m not gonna argue about it.
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
You're a country of nationalist.
YagizHarunEr@reddit
the song says "flowers blossom on the hills of izmir" and then "routed enemies scurry away like the wind;" should be self-evident that the "enemies" here are the greek invaders during the turkish war of sovereignty. you don't expect greek people hearing that song being sung in greece to just go "ah, yes, the halycon days where we got rekt," do you?
Ujemegaz@reddit
So, if Turkey football team plays in Greece, they won't be allowed to sing the anthem 🤔
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
national anthem is different, obviously. lol.
that's fine.
(& when they play in Greece, we give them our own welcome).
Ujemegaz@reddit
Is that the famous Arvanite guy 🤔
Critical_Parking_671@reddit
Who fought for Greece....
YagizHarunEr@reddit
there's nothing against the greeks or any nation at all in the turkish national anthem. the gist of the anthem is that if the turkish homeland gets invaded again the turks have the valiance, competence and faith to defeat the invaders again. it doesn't say "we rekt nation x on territory y" at any point
Ujemegaz@reddit
Don't worry, Greeks will always find something they do not like.
Ektor_G123@reddit
And Albanians will always find a way to make themselves the victims.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Look who is speaking.
YagizHarunEr@reddit
hahahahahaha fair enough
Ok-Monitor-241@reddit
Well we accepted Mikis Theodorakis to our country and did not view as a threat
YagizHarunEr@reddit
why would türkiye refuse mikis theodorakis? he literally started a foundation with this turkish counterpart zülfü livaneli to promote turco-greek friendship and adhered to the betterment of turco-greek relations until his death. he was the exact opposite of a threat for türkiye and a model for any greek or turkish artist. if only ışın karaca could behave like mikis theodorakis
Ok-Monitor-241@reddit
Well you are right just If I remember correct he sang greek patriot music
YagizHarunEr@reddit
i actually don't know about the lyrics of his songs, so i'll take your word for it. i just know of his activism.
Kindly_Scientist@reddit
why? history hurts sometimes. there is a lot of nation that has songs about their brutal defeats, to ensure never doing those mistakes again.
Ok-Monitor-241@reddit
Guys you might explain reasons to me instead of downvoting
Sensitive-Basis-6885@reddit
Entering a country is not a human right that why there borders. Openly disrespecting and mocking that country in a social event shouldnt shock if you they deny you entrace the other time you are trying to return. Lets imagine a german or french going to turkey burning the flag, leaving the country and then trying to return and being shocked they are denied entrace.
kefallinos@reddit
FAFO I guess 🤷
chrstianelson@reddit
Nationalism is poison.
Turkish singer is rejected entry because she uttered a Turkish nationalist slogan, Greek singer refuses to perform because there were Turkish and Ataturk flags on the stage.
Greeks and Turks are exactly the same in everything that's shit, nationalism being at the top.
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
Despina Vandi denying to perform in front of Ataturk flags is not nationalism, it's common decency.
I ain't a nationalist, yet I would never perform anything or take photograph associating myself with any dictator's face.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
"dictator" lmao he ruled with a parliament that was open to anyone to enter
Ur just mad he beat you like 100 years ago
Ionesomecowboy@reddit
This kind of butthurt will never go way for them, don't bother.
Iapetus404@reddit
Nazi use same tactics and ideology like young turks and kemal did to Greeks and Armenians.
Some famous fact that you ignore in Turkey or act like never happened.
Adolf Hitler and the Nazis highly admired Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, often referring to him as a "shining star" and a master mentor in the 1920s and 30s. Hitler regarded Atatürk's successful defiance of the Treaty of Sèvres as a model for Germany, calling him a "teacher"
Kemal was just Hitler mini-me
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Can you give me a recipeh for some splendid lemon cake?
Objective-Expert771@reddit
you sound like AI, can you please share your prompt?
Iapetus404@reddit
oh you dont like history facts???
Objective-Expert771@reddit
and now its just you. this is simple and fine, keep it that way
Iapetus404@reddit
its ok if you like be brainwashed but its your problem not for rest of the world.
Everyother know what it was Kemal and young turks
Objective-Expert771@reddit
Kemal was nominated by Nobel peace prize by Greek prime minister. Both him and people selected this prime minister must be brainwashed. Go ask your ai about it, you will be surprised
Iapetus404@reddit
yeah and? Also Hitler nominated for Nobel peace prize in 1939.
January 24, 1939, twelve Swedish members of parliament nominated the British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain for the Nobel Peace Prize. The argument for this was that Chamberlain had saved world peace by the Munich Agreement with Hitler in September 1938, when the Czechoslovakianarea Sudetenland was handed over to Germany. Chamberlain was the man who ”through this dangerous time saved our part of the world from a terrible catastrophe” , as written in the nomination letter.
https://www.nobelpeacecenter.org/en/news/hitler-as-a-nobel-laureate
Objective-Expert771@reddit
ok its better when you do your own research. hitler’s case was before the war he started and Kemal’s nomination was after the war he fought and by the enemy he fought. now this is called critical-thinking, you have to use this technique if you are willing to talk about history meaningfully and not write everything you heard from somebody
Iapetus404@reddit
I read official history and also i have my Grandfather diaries from the war.
Objective-Expert771@reddit
lets go back to the first topic. what does Greek official history say about Venizelos nominating Ataturk for a Nobel peace prize?
i also wonder what your grandfather wrote about the reason of the Greek invasion after the war. can you elaborate on that as well?
Iapetus404@reddit
I told you that Venizelos nominating was because Ataturk help to have long time peace together after decades of wars(Balkan wars,WW1,Greek revolution etc).
Greeks we dont see it as invation.....Asia Minor campaign was to protect the Greeks from turkish genocides, liberated them free and Greek cities.
My Grandfather was not fight in the front because he was officer in an office and communicated with French and Italians because he spoke both languages.
He wrote many interesting things and what he hear and see because he take interviews from people who was at "Amele Tambourou" the famous death Battalions and from villages and cities where was fights.
After the war he was prisoned from King regime for some time because he was pro-Venizelos and he was take part in resistance in WW2, he die when my father was in high school so i never met him.
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
Ataturk had a one party parliament, while trying to set up an " opposition" that would be an opposition in name only.
There were no multi- party elections and the ones that included the party members itself were rigged beyond any measures.
His party also purged any political rival and incarcerated or executed hundreds of those who dared oppossed him in politics.
There is a word describing all these - a FUCKING dictator.
No , you bozo , I don't like Greek dictators like Metaxas , Pangalos or Papadopoulos either. Long story short - I don't like dictators, whatever their nationality.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
Metaxas was, obviously, a dictator.
however, in terms of foreign policy, decisions were consistently good.
(& importantly, he didn't put "ideology" over geo-political reality).
people called him a "royalist" but in 1940 he was praising Venizelos, & saying "we are with England"
he admired Germany & Italy but (unlike Constantine) didn't let that "cloud his judgement"
his handling of the Greco-Italian diplomacy (leading up to the war) was excellent.
"I know with certainty that Greece will 'suffer' from this war. But I also know with certainty that it will ultimately emerge not only glorious, but also greater"
*
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Says you. Atatürk had many non-aligning people be im leading positions in the parliament as well. And again, it was a parliament that was open to the public to join.
You pulled that straight outta ur arse lmao
And also, İ'm gonna tell you a little secret: ANY country in history started off as an authoritarian party state. İts how countrys get established in spite of outside powers.
Once again complete bs.
He urged people that didnt align with his views to create their own factions. İts how people like Fethi Okyar got into leading positions amongst the liberals
The only people that faced repercussions were ottomanists who sought to divide the populace, as well as anti-republicanists who wanted their own state.
Bro's maaaad af
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
Your ignorance of your own country's political history doesn't amuse me in the slightest.
Keep sucking Ataturk's ( and every Ataturk's ) bourgeois balls , you illiterate peasant.
Holy cope . 100 years later and most of Turkey's political history are dictatorships and coups.
Get class consciousness or you will be an illiterate beggar forever.
Iapetus404@reddit
its not the same.
Its like a Jewish singer sing in Rome full with Mussolini banners
Playful-Alfalfa5729@reddit
You fail to see, it's justified and rational when Greeks do it, barbaric when it's done by the Turks.
Common decency my ass.
NormieFam@reddit
Whole family should have been denied entry. They were tolerant if anything g.
bir9bir2@reddit
Doesn't whichever side do this, it is a 100% certified crybaby move.
Also perhaps a note, March of Izmir is a symbolic march used by anti-Erdo movement.
How does the lyrics "ultranationalist". Only last line a big maybe. Remaining meh.
March of Izmir Flower blossom in mountains of Izmir Golden sun sparking its rays Retreating enemies blown like a wind Long live Mustafa Kemal Pasha Long live Your name will be carved on every stone I sat and stayed Flower blossom in mountains of Izmir
I sat and stayed in Mountains of Izmir Listing martyrs in my diary Embraced the poor orphans It was a destiny my beloved mother I do not spare my blood for my homeland.
DatHistoryLad@reddit
I looked it up, and apparently she's been divorced 4 times 🤣 with that attitude it doesn't surprise me
Drafter1991@reddit
I mean I won't get into historical context here but if you go into someone's home singing proudly about the wars you had with him, oh well you already know what's coming next...
Alarmed-Artichoke238@reddit
You only share posts about Turks in another post you were idiotly saying do nooot compare us to tooorkks, this loooks soo funiii but you yourself cant think of anything other than them, im saying this independently from the context btw .
Xneze@reddit
I swear this op always shares provocative shit, she loves to start arguments especially in grece-turkey situations
Alarmed-Artichoke238@reddit
ops so cringe, always posts provocative shit but whenever someone posts something cultural , positive and actually related to fucking balkans thats how he reacts, literal braindead
Xneze@reddit
least racist balkaner lmao 25k karma in 2 months as well, bro is spending all day on reddit bashing turks. Get a life op, go outside
YagizHarunEr@reddit
Yes. Imagine what would happen if a Greek singer were to sing a patriotic Greek song in Türkiye.
Also, saying the phrase beginning with "how happy..." outside Türkiye doesn't really make sense as nobody would know the context; unless you're willing to give an hours-long history lecture to everyone in the crowd.
In the end, this is a FAFO situation. Tone deaf choices from her, at the very least. would work for the best if both sides refrain from seeking chances to squeeze in microaggressions.
stats_merchant33@reddit
The question really is how dismissive it would be against Turkey. She could say that she is proud to be Greek 1000 times in a song, no body would say shit.
YagizHarunEr@reddit
eh i see what you mean but i disagree here and the reason why i disagree is the assassination of hrant dink. the dude literally said (i'm paraphrasing here so "literally" as in "figuratively") "armenians should stop basing their entire identity on 'not being turkish' and try to solve the problems in armenia, which is a country in dire straits", yet got assassinated (by a 17-year-old so that he would be tried as a juvenile), because the ultranationalist turks thought he called Turks as "dirty-blooded" when in reality, what he said was that armenians should stop circling the thought that is turks are "dirty-blooded" and armenians are "pure people who were defiled by the turks."
so, it doesn't really matter what the content of the song is. say that a greek singer were to sing about baklava in some backward-ass province in türkiye like konya. all it takes is for some instigator to start rumors saying "she said x, y, z against türkiye" and masses would rile up. this exact thing happened on september 6th and 7th, 1955 and even though it's been 71 years, türkiye is no different.
once the masses get riled up, it doesn't matter what the truth is. if we were to adhere to the truth then donald trump wouldn't have gotten elected as the president of the usa, for example. truth is irrelevant.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Hrant dink published an article that defamed one of Turkeys most revered heroes without any proof or evidence, he basically slandered that hero with 0 proof or even taking responsibility. Even though İ think his murder was wrong, he definetly had it coming. İts like Charlie Kirks situation, you cant advocate for excessive gun rights and then be mad when someone is assaulted/murdered with a gun and everyone is pulling guns from every crevice.
dcell1974@reddit
He had it coming because he said something mean about a dead guy. Yikes.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
He spread misinformation and actively falsified interviews about a national hero no less
"Something mean" doesnt cut it
dcell1974@reddit
You can say literally anything you want about any Greek national hero and I could not care less, let alone wish death on you. What you are saying is a sign of both moral weakness and an incredibly fragile sense of national identity.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
İ'm sorry when did İ ever wish death on him?
İ said İ wasnt sorry for him that doesnt mean İ wished his death.
Besides, while you may not care, other people im greece will and İ may get murdered. And you probably wont care.
See how that reflects my stance?
But dont worry, trashtalk doesnt challenge cognitive dissonance.
mrbadger30@reddit
Bro, I’ve just read that the assassination didn’t happen 50 years ago, but in 2007. Everyone here not Turkish is right: if someone would go to Turkey and sing patriotic Greek songs, even for the sake of trolling, things would escalate 100%.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Singing a song is different than actively spreading fake news about a national hero.
Nowhere will people accept disrespect. İ dont agree with him getting murdered but you cant expect people to stand still after a stunt like that.
Remember that youtube-prankster who disrespected the rememberance statue in south korea? Dont see anyone defending his right of expression
mrbadger30@reddit
Whenever you say “I don’t agree with X, but…” you’re automatically shitting in your own words and actually agreeing to X.
Let that sink in for a second or so.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Whatever man if you cant argue back then at least stfu you havent adressed a single one of my examples/arguments
İts hilarious to me that people think they have more intel on these things than people who actually live in the country where it happened
mrbadger30@reddit
I only found vomit and piss, no arguments. Can’t rebut bodily fluids, try again? Thanks!
aybsavestheworld@reddit
Ouch. My dude, this isn’t the justification you think it is. Because there’s none.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
İ've seen what made you cheer, dont need your approval
TanVaktidir@reddit
Yo very off topic but are you the Turk from İzmir who lives in the Faroe Islands? He was on Jahrein's stream.
stats_merchant33@reddit
you are stretching hard atm and have a clear hate/agenda against Turkey as it seems. You are cherry picking individual incidents (some misrepresented) in the over 100 years long history of a country and want to display it as the norm. And also why are you using Hrant Dink now to make a point in a discussion. He doesn't have anything to do with this.
YagizHarunEr@reddit
dude, i'm not falling for this bait. you said "The question really is how dismissive it would be against Turkey. She could say that she is proud to be Greek 1000 times in a song, no body would say shit.." and i replied with "no, the question isn't the dismissiveness as it doesn't matter what she actually sings as there are people who would find something or create something to follow an agenda, if need be;" yet you're saying that "i'm stretching hard" and i'm contorting history to push an agenda.
either you live in a cave and have no idea about the world we currently live in or you lack basic critical thinking skills and i'm not gonna give you a 4-year college education in a reddit comment.
end of discussion
Chemical-Garden-4953@reddit
You are clueless and ignorant. If a Greek singer sang about how proud she is for being a Greek, the most negative things that could happen would happen on Twitter.
End of discussion.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit (OP)
lol.
Turks carried out pogroms against Greek/Armenians over nothing.
if a Greek was to go to Turkey, and for a song referencing 1821, or the Balkan wars - where Turks got annihilated, I'm certain the reaction would be a LOT worse.
taloschat@reddit
Reality check no one cares. What average Turks respect is religion, Ataturk, flag etc. Balkan wars, greek independence war etc are not anything average person cares.
Ujemegaz@reddit
You are speculating at this point.
stats_merchant33@reddit
And that's the part where you are wrong, shit wouldn't happen to singer in Turkey screaming their souls out on how much they love Greece in a song. Your arguments were bad as I already tried to explain to you. You could go to any country and find very tragic, sad and unfortunate mob actions against minorities (with all respect and no relativation). The conclusion of this is not that you simply can create general rules and apply it every imaginary scnarios of yours. There are even examples of Greek people entering Turkey with a history of nationalisitc Greek songs as some Redditors already said in this thread.
Come visit Turkey mate, people there are not real life bogeymen as you believe.
like ngl and with all honesty, you should be thankful that someone from my experience and knowledge tries to to explain you something... I went to university a little longer than only 4 years you moron haha
Bilmemkineyapsam@reddit
I can’t imagine the backlash that would occur if this happened vice versa, and it’s pretty ironic for other people in the comments to tie this into patriotism or nationalism as if thinking this is reasonable also isn’t inherently nationalist or patriotic.
The double standards.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Hey I'm organizing a tour in Istanbul about the Tripolitsa massacre, are you coming? I've written songs about it. I'm sure you don't have a problem with that, you sound very open-minded.
Hefty-Cheesecake-949@reddit
Remind me how many Christians you Turks left alive in modern day turkey again?
It’s now 0,1% of the population right now? And everyone left willingly I suppose?
FlakyContribution345@reddit
Don't know why you are being downvoted. The clever turkeys can't take the facts.
Hefty-Cheesecake-949@reddit
Their school systems indoctrinates them they don’t get educated.
Objective-Expert771@reddit
they got converted when the hagia sophia turned into a mosque
FlakyContribution345@reddit
Good. You are not welcome. Go and have a holiday in one of the stolen turk lands
BrittaKenulla@reddit
Yes. Turks don't belong on Cyprus. They are invaders
Stverghame@reddit
Oh this is a regular thing between Serbia and Croatia lol
CypriotGreek@reddit
Let’s be honest, we’ve tolerated this kind of behavior for a long time, Turkish artists coming here and openly pushing nationalist narratives. At the end of the day, Greece, as a sovereign country, has every right to decide who enters and who doesn’t.
And why would you go to Muslim areas of Greece and sing Turkish nationalist songs? What exactly did you expect the reaction to be? Would you like it if a Greek singer went to Istanbul and started singing openly anti-Turkish or Greek nationalist songs? That wouldn’t end well at all. If Greeks in Constantinople still existed, I wonder what happened to them.
So compared to that, a simple denial of entry is honestly mild. She wasn’t banned long-term, she wasn’t punished beyond that, just told she’s not welcome under those circumstances.
If she feels that strongly, she can go perform for her audience elsewhere.
No-Specialist-1435@reddit
From a Bosnian. If you are going to tout your turkness and sing provocative songs that "don't offend anybody" (like the classic balkan excuse with any nationalistic song), as a public figure, don't be surprised not to be enter Athens. Why would you even go to the place you hate?
CrazyNegotiation1934@reddit
One thing is certain, to not allow a person enter a country, must have done something famously wrong.
I cant imagine was not allowed just for not like her voice.
WorldBiker@reddit
First AFIK Turkish and Greek singers go back and forth regularly and aren’t known for being nationalistic. In this case she is a Cypriot Turk — already contentious—singing pro Turkish songs. Yes free speech and all of that, yes a fairly large majority have no problem with Turks, but also yes Cyprus remains a sensitive spot and it is seriously tone deaf.
theonefrombelow@reddit
Entering a country is not a right lmao otherwise we would not need visas or permissions
She should chill the fuck out and not act like a martyr
BarnaclePotential132@reddit
Fuck around and find out. It would have been the same the other way around. Thats she is even complaining now shows you how ignorant or entitled she is.
TheCharalampos@reddit
I smell bs
PeriodontosisSam@reddit
Its a weird situation. If she had the permission to sing the patriotic songs in Greece than its chicanery but if she didnt had the permission that its provocation from her side.
thecartman85@reddit
This garbage right here is why the balkans are what they are.
YaremYarem@reddit
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
No_Calligrapher1190@reddit
Every country is free to deny entry of hostile people.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
İmagine if the roles were reversed jesus christ
Hefty-Cheesecake-949@reddit
You killed everyone that believes in Jesus in your country so stfu.
BurgurluGenc031@reddit
Well İzmir Marşı is about turk army sending greek army back from taking İzmir and being grateful to Atatürk sooo idk it can look song chosen to offense them and praise ourself on their country which is disrespectful even that was not the purpose. İ dont say u should not say ur proud with ur past,i am damn lover of my past so much i say 'being turk is gift from god to me' but u should be careful the way u do or say it.
kalazaoo@reddit
Plenty of Greek people including journalists have been refused entry in Turkey for less but i dont see posts about them? Ive already seen like 4 posts about this case pretending like its a big deal. Like holy hell that woman's audacity to feel offended and make a big deal of out this is astonising. Its like me going in Turkey and singing a song about the genocides Greek people did to the turkish/muslim populations during the Greek War of Independence, and then being shocked that they dont want me inside their country.
So now, even more hate and needless fuel between Greeks and the Turks simply because shes a bratty singer got her ego hurt and decided to throw a tantrum. AND NOW both goverments use this as propaganda against each other, and you idiots blindly follow both our dumb goverment's narratives and argue with each other like idiots.
Also, whoever believes a greek person would be able to sing a similar song in Turkey with no backlash, ESPECIALLY under erdogan regime, is hard coping.
Strict-Passenger3301@reddit
It looks like small dick energy to be honest
satoran94@reddit
You can promote decapitating people or raping women on your songs/marches when the object is Turks but how dare a Turk say he/she is proud of being a Turk?!
ADRzs@reddit
Any country can declare anybody as "persona non grata" for any reason and deny entry to that person. We just do not have all the data here to know the reasons that Greece took this action, but we can guess at some of these. Personally, I do not have any problem with anybody going and singing along with members of the Muslim community of Komotini who regard themselves as ethnic Turks, provided that this does not cross into open sedition. Not knowing all the parameters here, I would certainly have allowed the said person to enter and go and sing her heart out. Not a problem
sazma_2208@reddit
wow, that's crazy
the lack of awareness some people have, mindblowing
Free-Celebration4562@reddit
A more detailed article on this: https://cyprus-mail.com/2026/04/12/cypriot-singer-denied-entry-to-greece