Trim level stuff that is not an improvement, why is it like this?

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CoachOpen1977@reddit

This is why I only buy base models. Having grown up in common family cars from the 80’s, modern base models are luxury cars by comparison. I don’t need or want anything more.

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Wise-Parsnip5803@reddit

Living in the cold, heated steering wheels are a must have.

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Mirai_Akiyama@reddit

I live in the cold, I've never had a heated steering wheel

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KeanuIsACat@reddit

Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science?

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That’s understandable. I’m in the south and we have some cold ass days in the winter but most of the time a heated steering wheel is overkill at best. Good A/C is a must, vented seats are a plus, but I started out with 80’s cars so my modern base models are fackin fancy to me! I do love heated seats though and I use them year round because they feel good to my aching back! I installed them in my Honda Fit.

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CapoKakadan@reddit (OP)

And then you end up having to accept the gigantic metal wheels with less rubber, right? I do t understand why it’s assumed that THAT is what everyone wants, as an “upgrade”.

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stu54@reddit

I got a quote from my insurance company when I bought my car, and the only difference between a base 2019 Civic and the Sport that should affect insurance was the steel wheels.

I saved $40 per month and $1700 at purchase by not getting the 6 inch infotainment screen or the alloy wheels

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Wise-Parsnip5803@reddit

Yup, got the 20 inch low profile rims with that option. Being a big suv there's still plenty of tire so it doesn't pop over big pot holes. It has a glass roof which worries me about limbs or hail breaking the glass. Rather just have metal. I like the sunroof but the blinds on it are closed more than they are open. Maybe when all the assembly is done by Ai they can go back to custom car ordering.

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Tasty_Cod_7354@reddit

What the hell are you talking about? I don't think plastic body cladding is on every car as an option lol

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CapoKakadan@reddit (OP)

Maybe cladding is wrong word. Extra plastic body crap. Bottom edge of the doors or below the doors,. Front bumper extra stuff somehow LESS aerodynamic than the cheaper version.

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20Factorial@reddit

Can you provide one example of a higher trim vehicle that gets worse mpg (with the same engine/drive layout) than the base model?

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CapoKakadan@reddit (OP)

2024 Honda Accord Hybrid (EX-L vs. Touring) EX-L MPG: 51 City / 44 Highway, Touring MPG: 46 City / 41 Highway. Camry: LE (Base Trim) MPG: 53 City / 50 Highway, SE / XLE / XSE (Higher Trims) MPG: 48 City / 47 Highway.

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Tasty_Cod_7354@reddit

The difference in your examples is from the wheel size not the small variance in body work

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CapoKakadan@reddit (OP)

Ok I’ll buy that. But then why would I want to pay more for getting less MPG?

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jonnyt88@reddit

depending on your use case, the plastic cladding and bigger wheels can have benefits. Not everyone wants needs or wants the same thing. Luckily you can buy the very base model and add the individual features you wanted without the features you didn't want from Package X.

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20Factorial@reddit

Sell the bigger wheels and replace with lower trim wheels. You’ll sell the nicer wheels for more than the lower trim replacements cost you, so you’ll offset the added cost of the nicer features.

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Tasty_Cod_7354@reddit

I wouldn't expect you to. But many people are happy to pay more for a better looking car at the expense of a couple mpg.

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CapoKakadan@reddit (OP)

Wait, do most people think bigger wheels (with less rubber) and additional plastic parts on the car look better and worth extra money? Is that the general aesthetic consensus? I must’ve missed that evolution in taste or it never caught on with me.

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SlomoLowLow@reddit

They wouldn’t do it if people didn’t like it. A Bentley bentayga comes factory on 23’s. I’m pretty sure people with Bentleys have money. The auto maker is going to cater to the people buying. The people buying want big wheels and aero. You are the minority. They are not building cars targeting you because what you want has very little profit margin compared to cars with options.

Why would they cater to you to make $1500 per car when they can cater to the wealthy and everyone else for $15k per car? Business are in business to make money not to please everyone.

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la-fours@reddit

Thankfully you’re not obligated to enjoy what others do. Options exist, others are willing to pay for those options. The human race survives another day.

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peakdecline@reddit

This is almost certainly coming down to a tire difference. Maybe a bit of weight contributes. But likely the higher trim level comes with a higher performance, as in more grip, tire. And not some kind of body style difference impacting aero.

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JJ_Was_Taken@reddit

Those upgrades also include items that add weight. Are you sure it's the aerodynamics reducing mileage and not just weight?

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fenderstratsteve@reddit

So you picked a specific scenario to make your theory true. This does not make it the norm.

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CapoKakadan@reddit (OP)

I was asked for exactly one example. I have two. And I personally experienced a third longer ago: 2013 Honda fit base got better gas mileage than the sport with low profile wheels. Same engine and transmission.

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fenderstratsteve@reddit

But you understand that this ‘cladding on higher trims’ is not the norm then, contrary to your original thesis.

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Nstraclassic@reddit

Accord Touring has bigger stock tires. Thats really the only difference that impacts fuel efficiency. If you really want that extra 4mpg downsize the tires. Not familiar with the others but i assume theyre similar

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NewUnusedName@reddit

Everything from Toyota gets a 5mpg drop when you go base to SE. Civic vs Civic sport are both 1.5t cvts and lose 2mpg highway when you go up.

On the Camry they lock leather seats behind the SE. On the civic if you want blindspot monitoring you have to go to the sport.

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Nstraclassic@reddit

Thats because theyre turbocharged and/or pushing higher housepower.

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NewUnusedName@reddit

They are all the exact same drivetrain and hp rating. It's because that have a bunch of sporty aero and larger wheels + sporty tires.

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CapoKakadan@reddit (OP)

Exactly! Hence my complaint. That stuff isn’t helping anything (well, admittedly, it’s not helping anything I want)

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Nstraclassic@reddit

Then dont buy it? No one is scamming you lol. If you dont care about performance, comfortability, extra gadgers or whatever else higher trims come with just stick with the base model

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EnlargedChonk@reddit

But what if you want the extra interior options without the extra stuff on the exterior? That is the complaint. Came across the same problem when looking at a WRX. The only way to get the premium sound system was to also get a sunroof. Even as just an addon package. (I suspect the reason for this being the different roof piece for sunroof includes the rear deck with a hole for the subwoofer, whereas the non sunroof lacks the subwoofer hole for some reason) There are also a few other things like user controlled center diff and OEM brembo brakes that can only be had with a trim that includes the sunroof. There's no if ands or buts if you don't like a sunroof and want a new WRX your only options are the two bottom trims, which last year was only one bottom trim. At the very least the better bottom trim included winter features like heated seats, wipers, and mirrors.

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Nstraclassic@reddit

Youre getting into custom spec territory which people spend hundreds of thousands for

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NewUnusedName@reddit

Yeah I noticed that when I was looking for a new commuter. Admittedly I like the SE Toyota looks enough to give up the mpg, so it's my fault, but I did think it was silly they hid features behind the sport trims.

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20Factorial@reddit

If by 5mpg, you mean 1mpg, I’ll agree with you. Corolla SE gets 1 less mpg than the LE, and all of that is due to larger wheels and wider tires. If you want that mpg back, sell the bigger wheels and replace them with LE steelies/hubcaps and you’ll actually make money back.

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NewUnusedName@reddit

I mean I can pick and choose too, prius goes from 57/56 to 52/52 for the nightshade which replaced the SE, Camry goes from 52/49 to 47/45. The Corolla cross had a similar drop until they got rid of the base SE and made it a hybrid only package. Either way though, the point of the post was "Why can't I get the interior options without all the sport styling that I don't care about" and I think that still stands.

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twelfthfantasy@reddit

A lot of them do because the higher trim levels come with shit that adds weight. When I bought a 2017 Kia Niro, the two lowest trim models were advertised as getting about 7mpg better than the touring trim, which had premium speakers, heated seats, and driver assist sensors and such standard

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20Factorial@reddit

“Adds weight” is within the noise. A Corolla SE weighs a whopping 150lbs more than an LE. Not enough to really move the mpg needle. The items you mentioned add a few pounds at most.

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jolsiphur@reddit

The only examples I can think of for models that get worse fuel economy at higher trim levels are models that offer a stronger engine if you go up in trim.

While it was in production, the Subaru Legacy had higher trim levels that had the WRX engine instead of the regular base one.

Mustang Ecoboost vs GT comes to mind.

Though it's worth mentioning the new Accord. Higher trims come with the hybrid drivetrain which both increase power and the fuel economy.

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20Factorial@reddit

There are some higher trims I saw that shed 1mpg because they come with wider (often higher performance) tires on larger wheels, but that hardly seems like a deal breaker. If you want the mpg back, you can sell the fancy wheels and bury steelies with hubcaps and cheap tires and break even.

Absolutely none of them get worse mpg because of aerodynamics like OP is whining about.

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twelfthfantasy@reddit

A lot of them do because the higher trim levels come with shit that adds weight. When I bought a 2017 Kia Niro, the two lowest trim models were advertised as getting about 7mpg better than the touring trim, which had premium speakers, heated seats, and driver assist sensors and such standard

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JCDU@reddit

A lot of that stuff is because they learned that stone chips and water/salt/dirt flung up from the roads works to sand-blast the paint off and then rust away the body really fast.

If you make trims, guards, cowlings, panel edges, etc out of plastic you deflect 90% of that shit on something that doesn't rust and can be unclipped & replaced if it gets really dinged up. Look at how (and where) older cars used to rot out before they worked out about water traps, drainage, vents, and protection.

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Nstraclassic@reddit

Lol brother youre not running at 150mph, aerodynamics isnt going to play a major role in anything you do day to day

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CapoKakadan@reddit (OP)

At regular highway speed, wind resistance is the highest user of energy.

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DoobieGibson@reddit

how much slower is a toyota camry going without plastic at the bottom of the door compared to one with the bottom of the door?

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Nstraclassic@reddit

And yet its still a marginal difference at highway speeds. And what other factors are you even comparing to? The 7000lb load youre towing? Sorry but a couple plastic sideskirts is not going to make a significant difference

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ScaryfatkidGT@reddit

You are referring to side skirts, Bumper extensions, lips, etc commonly called “ground effects”.

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wpmason@reddit

I think you’re drastically underestimating how aerodynamic a well designed valance actually is.

Definitely more aerodynamic than the underside of the vehicle with more air passing under it.

That’s why race and sports cars have as little ground clearance as I’d feasibly possible. It helps aero, the exact opposite of what you’re claiming.

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7eregrine@reddit

This is not how Volvo works.

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Tasty_Cod_7354@reddit

Yeah maybe on low end cars lol

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DoobieGibson@reddit

i worked at a car rental agency and the only care this might apply to is a Subaru

Camry and Corollas don’t do this, nor do Sentra’s and Altimas and only Elantra N’s and N-Line Sonatas get extra

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Blu_yello_husky@reddit

"Trim level" isnt referring to the actual physical exterior trim on a car, my guy. Its in reference to how many optional luxury features a car has compared to lower trims. I cant think of the last car in over 30 years that actually had a physical difference in appearance from a higher trim level one.

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hemibearcuda@reddit

Marketing.

Here's an example. My wife is about to replace her 15 year old Honda pilot.

She insists she can't live without heated leather seats. She also wants to upgrade to a heated leather steering wheel. She does not want or need the flagship model package, and agrees it's not worth the additional 10-15k for flashy badging / trim and 20" wheels.

Guess what ? If she insists on heated leather seats and steering wheel (like a lot of people) what model do you think we have to buy to get that ? Pick a random vehicle and go online to "build" it yourself.

To get the real nice options, you typically have to pay for premium packages. There is no such thing as a base model with premium options added to it anymore.

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cyn_ou@reddit

People are willing to lose 2 mpg to get something that looks a bit cooler with wheels that fill the wheel wells better?

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Akward_Object@reddit

Technically the wheel wells are not being filled any better. Since total circumference stays the same. It's only the metal bit that gets bigger. Leading to harsher ride, more noise, less mpg (or range for an EV), more expensive tires, and more prone to damage (especially on bad quality roads). I still fail to see how that is an upgrade ever.

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CapoKakadan@reddit (OP)

And yet folks seem to think I’m just failing to grasp how such large wheels (and less rubber) is an amazing and definitely better upgrade and why would someone NOT want that, etc etc. I do t want to upgrade a trim level and end up with bigger wheels for no reason.

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too-left-feet@reddit

It’s a manufacturing and supply chain issue. When your car was made in Detroit and the suppliers were all in the mid-west then it was possible to build cars with a complex option sheet. Today parts are sourced from all over the world so the final assembly site would need to carry a lot of excess inventory in order for us to custom order the exact options we want. As a result the model has transitioned to 2-4 trim levels and a few simple bolt on options that can be handier the port or dealership.

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MrPogoUK@reddit

Yeah. We got the top trim level on our new car because it was only a tiny bit more per month and available now rather than in two months, but it’s got like two things that are a definite bonus and a load of stuff I don’t really care about!

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AlmiranteCrujido@reddit

This is very model-specific, and it sounds like you are looking at the wrong models.

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westleysnipes604@reddit

Rubber band tires as you call it are actually an improvement in many ways. The steel wheels rust and become prone to leaks over time.

The low profile tires make the car handle much better by eliminating body role. And many are run flats. I think manufacturers are doing run flats now because they dont have to include a spare. Which offers more potential storage space and weight savings. Along with a slight cost savings that can go elsewhere.

Different options are offered because not every car buyer is the same. Every owner has their specific needs in a vehicle.

My girl wants a car with a power lift gate and even an auto lift gate with proximity sensor and a kick sensor.

This only comes on higher trims if it is even an available option.

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Akward_Object@reddit

Actually they don't. First of all there are enough smaller rims that are not steel. And regardless of that steel wheels usually last the lifetime of the car anyway.

Body roll has little to nothing to do with tire profile. At high speeds (mostly not legal ones on public roads) you do get less tire deformation which tightens up steering with low profile tires. Mostly useless though in general traffic.

Low profile tires are a lot worse in damping road imperfections leading to a more uncomfortable and noisier ride. Also the big rim and small sidewall is a lot more prone to damage. Not to mention higher cost.

And I think it's ugly (but that is not objective).

I completely agree with OP, those things should be an option for who wants them. Not be a default add-on when the trim improves, because it makes for a worse car. I myself am waiting for my factory tires to wear out so I can drop the rim size to improve the ride quality.

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CapoKakadan@reddit (OP)

I wasn’t referring to wheel material. You can still get alloy wheels with actual decent sidewalls for better ride. But any trim level above base on most cars will also have huge wheels and very little tire.

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westleysnipes604@reddit

But you get a much better ride from non radial tires with a smaller sidewall. Depending on your definition of better ride. If you consider more floaty with more body role in corners good then yes the radials are better.

But if you consider handling, control and less body role better then low profile tires are much better.

Low profile tires come in many different profiles. It isn't until you go 25 or 30 series that the ride gets harsher. Most cars come with 30 or 40mm side walls, even high end sports cars. You may notice cheaper low pros may be louder them more expensive ones. But a low profile tire that is wider substantially improves performance on a car unless you go to a bigger diameter that is heavier. And in this case the car still handles better. The performance fall of is acceleration related.

There is no difference in ride comfort from low profile tires compared to radials comparing OEM fitment. They are .ire expensive for a reason. It's new technology vs. old out dated technology. The price of 17- 18" low profile tires has drastically reduced over the last 10 years..it won't be ling when radials will start to become mire expensive as they become more niche due to cars aging out. As more new tire factories are made and the old factories start needing repairs. Radial tires will become something that only exists for classic car owners who need tires that fit their classics.

The only reason manufacturers still sell cars with radials is price point and fuel-efficiency. Smaller/ lighter wheels take less torque thus requiring less horsepower. All being cheaper to produce. Equating to more profit.

You can find new cars with smaller wheels that are alloy but many are steel with plastic hub caps. Especially in Economy car brands.

Manufacturers see the car trends and bigger wheels look better. The biggest most common aesthetic upgrade people do to cars is new wheels. Dealers have even started upgrading trucks and SUv's with bigger wheels to capitalize.

The higher trim cars have better suspension moat of the time too witch is again a big upgrade in ride quality and performance.

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Wizzowsky@reddit

Your whole argument is moot because low profile tires are still made with RADIAL construction…

Also I saw a significant increase in ride comfort going from 18” down to 17” and increasing my sidewall to maintain the same circumference, which is also backed up by tons of people and professionals. I also lost a very small amount of actual handling feel and performance doing this. This is on a Focus ST as well so not just a regular passenger vehicle for most people so you can bet that the handling feel change is way less noticeable to most folks than the improvement in ride quality.

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westleysnipes604@reddit

17s will get more torque then 18s on a ST. There is a reason why if you make a GTR into a dedicated drag car they put smaller wheels and larger tires. Because thr softer tire hooks up better. The difference is going from a 4 or 5 inch side wall to any low profile. A 17 inch on a ST is a 35 series tire. Its still a low profile. If you pit 15" wheels with radials it will handle worse.

A base Toyota Rav 4 has 65 series tire. The performance differences come from going to a 40 or 35 series tire. And like I mentioned. The performance gains are handling and grip. Going to a 30 series is not a performance mod its for looks. The ride does get harsher. The acceleration is effected unless you buy really expensive wheels that reduce the weight. Handling at slow speeds like turning off a highway is worse but the grip at speed is better.

Different tire for different needs. Want best of both worlds 35/ 40 series. Want to put the biggest wheels can fit 30 series.. Want to get the cheapest wheels 65 series radials.

Radials tires don't have a reinforced side wall..low profile tires do.

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Wizzowsky@reddit

My tires are not “35 series” because as I mentioned I maintained the same circumference. They are 235/45-R17 tires.

Also, going down to 17s absolutely does NOT increase torque because, again, I kept the same circumference. Torque is a measurement of rotational force and while the different sized wheels can act like a force multiplier that is only if you change the circumference of the tire. By changing the circumference you change the length of the lever and thus the amount of torque your engine is able to apply to the ground since torque = force * radius. Since the circumference of my tire was not changed there is no change in available torque.

Drag cars go down to small wheels so they can fit absurd amounts of sidewall because the flex of the sidewall helps them get grip in takeoff, though it’s a reduction in cornering ability. Doesn’t much matter in the drag strip though.

In the end I do completely agree with “different tire for different needs” but you are still stuck describing “low profile” vs “radial” and you are just wrong there. ALL modern tires are made with radial construction except a few that still use bias ply construction for cost savings or maximum weight payload. No passenger cars made in the last 20+ years have NOT come with radial tires and all low profile tires are radial.

Additionally my opinion is that you are massively downplaying the comfort elements you get from a slightly larger sidewall as well as pothole resistance in favor of absolute performance, Both of which are points brought up by OP and are more relevant to 90% of people than the bleeding edge of handling performance you can get from big wheels with low profile tires.

Here, let me help you learn about tire construction: - https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Are+low+profile+tires+made+with+radial+construction%3F - https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Are+any+modern+car+tires+made+with+a+construction+method+other+than+radial%3F

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CapoKakadan@reddit (OP)

Thank you. I thought I was crazy.

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myrichiehaynes@reddit

I’m a little lost. The tires for my car are 35R19, so both low profile and radial and definitely not a cost-saving feature.

Most new tires are radial, aren’t they?

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westleysnipes604@reddit

19s aren't a cost cutting size wheel to begin with. 18 and 20 a much more common size and will both be cheaper to get new tires. 19" wheels are a niche size in comparison.

19 is a common BMW wheel size. Used to get a bigger wheel to fill out the modern style of a bigger wheel well. But still offer a weight savings because zhe rand is about performance. I'm sure 19s are becoming more popular every year and as more cars adopt a 19" wheel the prices will keep getting cheaper.

When I say radial I mean like tires from 80's. Low pros may very well be radials too. But radials used to be round woth a flat bottom and modern tires are more square. Low profile tires will wesr out faster but offer much more performance as long as there isn't added weight or diameter.

When they go into taller sidewall the sidewalls aren't reinforced like on a low pro or a run flat.

The side wall stiffness is where the tires feel less bouncy or floaty. I don't really even see tires like that anymore except on old cars. Even then most people replace wheels on older cars because wheels are stepped off wrecked cars and easily re sold.

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myrichiehaynes@reddit

I'm failing to find a new car sold today that has non-radial tires. It seems they are the modern standard.

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myrichiehaynes@reddit

Better ride just means that the tires are more compliant, while a less compliant tire, low-profile, will result in better handling in the corners.

This is why cars have them, because they will handle better.

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Thuraash@reddit

You're absolutely wrong about low profile tires. They do not decrease body roll at all, and also do not really make the vehicle handle better. They might make the vehicle respond slightly faster to steering inputs, but they have absolutely no effect on longitudinal or lateral grip.

Hell, my race car deliberately runs smaller wheels and taller tires because it's faster and handles better that way (much less unsprung rotating mass, more compliance for eating curbs and uneven surfaces).

Huge wheels and rubberband tires are 100% style over substance.

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myrichiehaynes@reddit

Suspension is much more responsible for body roll than the sidewall of the tires.

Soft suspension with low profile tires will have more body roll than stiff suspension and high profile tires.

Low profiles are less compliant, and perhaps this is what you mean.

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westleysnipes604@reddit

Low profile tires have a reinforced sidewall. Big radials don't.

I agree suspension is a huge part of body roll.

But as someone who had owned many fast cars and a few classics. It's all noticeable. Take my CTS4. On stock 18" tires the car can't take corners as fast as with 19" or 20" wheels. Especially if you mount summer tires compared to just a regular tires. The 20's make the car slightly slower of the line but the difference in handling performance is night and day. This is probably more to do with the extra width.

Take a classic from the 60's with 14" wheels and large radials. Then mount bigger wheels, there is definitely less of a floating feeling. It's not necessarily body roll technically but it feels the same. The tires move sideways around corners and it's very noticeable.

Mounting 18's or 20's on a 66 Lincoln instead of the factory 13 or 14" wheels the car definitely feels less tippy. Same suspension just different profile tires. Obviously these are boats and have a tone of body roll to begin with.

My point is, there's a reason why a Bugatti Veyron didn't come with big radials. It a performance upgrade.

Does the average car buyer need them. No. And would they even know what body roll is? Probably not

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Successful_Ad_9707@reddit

Because your average SUV/crossover buyer doesn't care about aerodynamics. They want the appearance of being outdoorsy and rugged even if the car never leaves the pavement. That and they like big shiny wheels that fill the wheel wells.

If the brand in question doesn't allow you to option the car as you want it, either go to a different manufacturer, deal with the ugly car/no heated seats, or retro fit in headed seats on a lower trimmed car. It sucks that you can't option cars as you want them, but most manufacturers have everything tied into packages these days. Ill also add you can probably remove said plastic cladding and have it paint matched. Sucks, but there are ways around it.

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CoachOpen1977@reddit

I installed heated seats in my base Honda Fit, which already is quite well-equipped for a base model. I also deleted the hubcaps and gave the steelies a dope refinish and added some old school chrome center caps from a ‘95 Civic. I also like the look of black plastic cladding. I added even more black plastic to my RAV4. lol

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Unlucky_Employee6082@reddit

I was more annoyed that if you want surround parking cameras, you’re stuck getting generally the highest trim. Ten years ago, you could get than one base model Murano, now it’s an exotic luxury feature than requires you to get a sun roof you never wanted and a bunch of features you’ll never use

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ScaryfatkidGT@reddit

What are you talking about? If anything the cladding should make the car more aerodynamic…

Wider tires will reduce milage and larger wheels can overall net weight more as a package and reduce city milage.

Larger diameter tires overall make for smaller bumps, but I haven’t understood putting 18, 19” and even 20” wheels on sedans.

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Sig-vicous@reddit

I assume by cladding you must mean what some might call "ground effects"...like front lips, side skirts, and rear diffusers, and the like.

Those sometimes are for potential increases in performance. Granted thats for some of them, a lot of them are purely for looks alone.

Oddly enough, these usually don't worsen MPG via aerodynamics, it's either insignificant or sometimes improve MPG by cleaning up turbulence, reducing drag, and rerouting air off of different surfaces of the car. Clean air improves drag at higher speeds.

In those that create aerodynamic down force, usually more on sports cars, they can decrease MPG a touch but the benefit is higher grip and stability at higher speeds.

Larger wheels have some performance improvements also, mostly around better steering response due to smaller sidewall flex. And again, the general public sees larger wheels as a better visual look as well.

What is more likely decreasing MPG on those trims is the overall weight increase. The higher trims have more options, more luxury, plus the aerodynamic additions, and everyone of those features increase weight. With an identical drivetrain, this will absolutely lower MPG.

If you want the higher trim with more options, you're going to pay a weight penalty, regardless of additional ground effects or not.

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-VizualEyez@reddit

Dude, same. I’m currently shopping for a commercial vehicle for personal use because I want the simplest thing possible.

2 door truck with a 6ft bed, vinyl floors, etc etc. Easy to maintain.

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Lufty_AD@reddit

Chose the middle trim for my corolla hatchback. Got 16 inch alloys that can survive a pothole, an analog cluster with a tiny screen (which I prefer), and it came with heated seats. The only things that the higher trim has that I wish I had are a heated steering wheel, better sound system, and usb c charging ports in the backseat.

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CapoKakadan@reddit (OP)

Yeah that’s actually not a bad setup there

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DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit

Sounds like you want a Jeep. The higher trim levels actually get you a higher suspension, fenders with more clearance, and real rock rails instead of bare metal or decorative steps.

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chris77982@reddit

Buy the base model and the ln retrofit the options you want.

It'll cost more and resale will be lower, but you'll get what you want.

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