How did people pre MeToo react to Hollywood predators?
Posted by Legal_Employer3891@reddit | GenX | View on Reddit | 121 comments
I’m 17, so I’ve only really known romantic\\sexual life post MeToo. But reading up about Shirley Temple’s life and falling down the rabbit hole to Roman Polanski’s public conviction for raping a teen years before the arguable peak of his film career, how did people react to this stuff before?
catgirl320@reddit
It was ignored. Or it was a joke.
They knew it was a problem from the early days of the business. Jackie Coogan was, at the very least financially abused, and in 1939 they enacted legislation to protect children's assets.
Paul Peterson (a child star in the 50s) was one of the first to speak out about abuse against child stars. He started the organization A Minor Consideration to help child actors who were abused. Other early stars like Judy Garland and Mickey Rooney talked about physical abuse like being forced to practice dances until they bled and being given uppers. Patty Duke also revealed she experienced severe abuse from the people that basically took on her guardianship and were her managers.
It took a long time and a lot of victims speaking about their experiences for it finally getting to the point where there was traction to actually condemn perpetrators of abuse and hold them accountable.
LaFemmeD_Argent@reddit
It was just another day at work. Any job. Any field. Including Hollywood & the music industry.
Still waiting for the #metoo version for boys/young male victims to really make an impact tho. 😕
MaximumJones@reddit
It's a real shame it needs it own version of you think about it.
LaFemmeD_Argent@reddit
It does need its own version. Strangely, people have no idea what’s been going on right under their noses since the beginning of time.
CT_Reddit73@reddit
The idea of a “casting couch” was in the common vernacular and everyone knew what it meant. The stories of directors sexually, physically, and emotionally abusing minors was also well-known. But most people laughed it off “That crazy guy” or whatever. From my generation, the first couple of actors that seemed to get public response was Corey Haim and Corey Feldman, when they opened up about being abused and preyed upon by directors, producers, etc. Yet, no one really did anything about that either.
Aggressive_Power_471@reddit
Besides the Coreys, I remember Courtney Love screaming about Weinstein but everyone thought she was a druggie and nothing happened. Rose McGown was also discredited because she was with Marilyn Manson.
Speaking of the Coreys, Feldman called out Charlie Sheen. Charlie said he did not sleep with men. Now it comes out he does in fact swing both ways, but there seems to be no justice for the Coreys. It's so sad.
CT_Reddit73@reddit
Haim explicitly blamed his drug addiction on the trauma of being repeatedly raped for years by Hollywood executives. And like McGowan, no one took them seriously because they were “washed up” or “on drugs”. Well, how do you think they got that way? Very sad.
Cinisajoy2@reddit
People knew about most. Google Fatty Arbuckle. He did lose his career.
Loretta Lynn caused a stir when she wouldn't sit on Dean Martin's lap.
As to the female stars, it was a choice of is it worth it to my career to do what this guy wants. Same with the playmates.
Now everyone knew Harvey was a groper. Bill Cosby was a shock because of his treatment of Lisa Bonet.
Monocle13@reddit
Arbuckle never touched Virginia Rappe. She died of a septic abortion she had days before the infamous party. The prosecutor wanted a celebrity head to mount on his wall, so he kept dragging Arbuckle through the courts in a campaign we'd now recognize - and would sue for - as "Malicious Prosecution". Arbuckle was finally acquitted & the jury even wrote a public apology for his rough treatment at the hands of the system, but the damage was done.
When Louise Brooks met him years after,she described him as "Dead Inside, like his hart & soul were gone & he was just waiting for his body to catch up". He'd been traumatized.
NVJAC@reddit
Giving you an upvote for the Louise Brooks reference. Goddamn, she was awesome.
Trolkarlen@reddit
Just look at how lecherous the "herose" are in Revenge of the Nerds. Their behavior would land them years in prison now.
tooslow_moveover@reddit
Lewis may have slipped away, but Poindexter’s time is coming
InfernalTest@reddit
But it was a great movie
bony-tony@reddit
The "casting couch" has long been an open secret in Hollywood, and up until the last 10 to 15 years it was largely winked at.
To the extent it was seen as abusive, it was largely seen as an abuse by the directors of their position of power -- not so much of the women themselves, but of the responsibility they had to cast objectively. Kinda similar to how people get mad that Hollywood puts nepobabies in roles today rather than the very best person for the role, that's more how it was seen for directors to cast roles based on who'd give them sex rather than merit.
Similarly, the women involved were generally looked down on, much like nepobabies of today. They were generally seen as using their sexuality to get something they hadn't earned. And this wasn't limited to Hollywood -- see "sleeping your way to the top".
It really is a much more recent development that folks have come to realize what role the power dynamics really play here. In the past it was man-wants-sex, woman-controls-sex, and so they were viewed as more equal participants. You could see this play out even at the greatest extremes of power imbalance: in the 90s, a 22 year old intern was given just as much of a hard time for their sexcapades as the President of the United States was. We just didn't perceive what he was doing as abusive -- she was an adult, she was capable of choosing to consent or not, and she chose to do so (and probably because she wanted to be closer to power). I'm not defending that view, I don't hold it anymore, but I did hold it when I myself was a 20 year old college student and the news had just broken, and I think I was pretty much dead center in how people viewed it. My sister (22) had a similar but slightly more liberal view, which was more "Why does anyone give a fuck about what two consenting adults do with themselves? Not our business".
Now I'm overstating things a bit, by the 1990s the term "sexual harassment" had come into being, and we had trainings about it in both work and school. I remember a special episode of a Different World, where Whitley was harassed crystallized the problem in way that hadn't really been portrayed before. But largely it was seen as a problem of refusing to take no for an answer -- coercing someone into sex through the power dynamics was seen as okay/consenting.
Anyway, if you want more context about just how long this whole kind of thing was an open secret, here's an article about a 1956 piece on the "casting couch": https://slate.com/culture/2017/10/1956-casting-couch-expose-shows-little-has-changed.html
And from a 2000 paper by a couple economists on the give and take of the casting couch:
NVJAC@reddit
Especially with Anita Hill's testimony against Clarence Thomas.
Shadowlab72@reddit
I feel so sorry for your generation.
Sumeriandawn@reddit
Okay, Weinstein
moonbeam127@reddit
Law Order SVU started in 1999, thats a recent place to start
Ok-Editor1747@reddit
We ignored. That’s the way it was. not excusing it, we really had no where to turn.
MichaSound@reddit
Yeah, I think a lot of the outpouring of anger and grief we saw from women during MeToo was from a LOT of women realising the dichotomy they’d been holding in their heads this whole time, brushing each incidence off as ‘it’s okay, it’s fine’, while knowing all the time deep down that IT WAS NOT FINE!
And it was hardly only a ‘Hollywood problem’. My primary school headmaster liked to grope and spy on 9-10 year old girls; I was hit on heavily by several teachers in high school, I’ve been groped and harassed at work.
And we learned at a very early age that if we reported any of this to an adult/someone in authority, we’d be brushed of and dismissed, cos it ‘wasn’t that bad’ or if it was it was ‘probably a misunderstanding’.
But the culture comes from the top down, so I doubt it’s changed that much, just got less visible. We let bullies and psychopaths take charge of our governments and run all our corporations. Sexual harassment is just one more form of bullying and exploitation.
Until we as a society stop giving kudos and opportunities to bullies, we’re all fucked, one way or another.
RedditWidow@reddit
I was born and raised in Los Angeles, and I remember my mom explaining the casting couch to me and telling me how Hollywood worked, including the use of drugs to prey on women. It wasn't a mystery or a secret. When I got older, I had opportunities to work in the entertainment industry and I decided not to because I didn't want to be around all that.
People seemed a lot more casual about girls dating men, back then, too. My mother was 17 when she married my father, who was 24. The average age for women getting married was 20 in 1970. It's 28 now. Even in the 80s, when I was in my teens, I was dating guys aged 20-30. No one ever said a word about it, not even my parents. That's how much times have changed.
brushfuse@reddit
The age difference isn’t important in itself, just the men in positions of power who exploit it to prey on the vulnerable. I think a lot of young women deliberately look for more mature men, because younger guys can be so immature and inexperienced. Maybe things are changing in that regard and I haven’t noticed.
mayuan11@reddit
The whole #MeToo has a completely different meaning to genX. We didn't call that a hashtag, lol.
Apprehensive_Gap1055@reddit
The truest statement I have read today!
corpus-luteum@reddit
I don't understand it. can you please enlighten me, as my intrigue is piqued?
73rd-virgin@reddit
Back in the old days, # this was the symbol for pound, as in a unit of weight. Pound was also a slang word for fuck.
If you were/are a smartass, you might read it as Pound Metoo.
FixJealous2143@reddit
Nothing romantic about it. Sex is power and we all knew it.
chickadee729@reddit
It was ignored. I dated a guy in college who got an entry level job at the Weinstein Company. After a month of working there, he heard everything about Harvey Weinstein and told me about it. It was an open secret and he was so powerful that it didn’t matter.
madogvelkor@reddit
During the Sexual Revolution and into the 80s they didn't even see it as predatory. A lot of people figured teenagers were sexy beings and could consent or not.
Polanski was a bit different because the victim was only 13 which was too young even for those times. Also drugs were involved and the actual act he engaged in was technically illegal in many places even with consent. But a lot of people still supported him in more liberal circles.
Severe_Intention_480@reddit
She was actually just short of her 13th birthday, and Polanski later admitted in an interview he was perfectly aware of hee actual age. I don't think 12 was the age of consent in any country Polanski ever lived in (Poland, the USA, Britain, or France), so his excuses fall flat
MaximumJones@reddit
Only a couple of years ago all of Hollywood stood and clapped for Roman Polanski at the Oscars.
MusicalMerlin1973@reddit
The big thing as we were growing up and just into adult hood was the explosion of the Catholic Church scandal. That and apparently rock Hudson and Liberace were gay. Liberace was a no 💩, but I remember my parents being surprised by rock.
Hollywood elite being a den of thieves just wasn’t talked about.
RedBaronSportsCards@reddit
Wow, were you intending to throw gay people in under the bus like that?
MusicalMerlin1973@reddit
Those were the scandals then. What do you want? Now? It’s Tuesday. No offense meant to anyone.
Oh I forgot about this one: The democratic front runner for presidential election who got caught with not his wife. Gary Hart.
Severe_Intention_480@reddit
The U.S.S "Monkey Business". LOL
RedBaronSportsCards@reddit
I remember the news. I don't remember thinking they were criminals.
Cinisajoy2@reddit
That was a big scandal and people were beyond shocked.
RedBaronSportsCards@reddit
They had boyfriends. Im pretty sure that's not 'den of thieves' or raping altar boys level scandal.
MusicalMerlin1973@reddit
My intention wasn’t to lump them in. I meant we had no clue about that casting couch being the scenes issue going on.
RedBaronSportsCards@reddit
Thank you for the clarification.
Cinisajoy2@reddit
On Liberace, he did like them younger.
Alternative_Sock_608@reddit
There was a time when existing as a celebrity who was gay was a scandal
North-Country-5204@reddit
I was surprised so many people didn’t know Rock Hudson was gay. I first heard about from my parent maybe 1977 or 1978 while the family watching McMillan and Wife. Overheard my mom ask my dad if he, Rock Hudson, was gay. Dad gave the affirmative. My parents have always been a bit more on the progressive side and of the belief that your sex life/ sexuality was your business. Also they were educated, well traveled and knew people of many different walks of life.
Thatstealthygal@reddit
I remember reading that it was an open secret in Hollywood so anyone with connections to the industry might have heard about it. I have also read that Rock was super indiscreet on set and loved to go after men.
But outside that world it really did shock people.
TowelFine6933@reddit
Wamminit..... Liberace?!?
MusicalMerlin1973@reddit
My mil discovered denial isn’t just a river in Egypt on that one. 🤷♂️
Street-Brush8415@reddit
It was covered up. Which makes it pretty remarkable that Polanski actually faced charges back in the 70s when there were probably Hollywood stars doing the same or worse every week.
LitlThisLitlThat@reddit
And it happened at Jack Nicholson’s house and we all still watch his movies and make that old asshole even richer
MaximumJones@reddit
Jack Nicholson was out of the country when it happened.
His girlfriend, Angelica Houston however, was inside the house the entire time. No one seems to want to talk about that.
Trolkarlen@reddit
The casting couch has always been a thing. Look at those Bugs Bunny cartoons with the wolves ogling beautiful women. We've always known this was a thing, but it just became less acceptable over time.
Here's a number from How to Succeed in Business without Really Trying (1967). The professional men had to be told not to play with their secretaries. Incidentally, Robert Morse won a Tony for starring in this play on Broadway, and then won an Emmy in 2009 for playing a 1960s ad man in the Mad Men.
https://youtu.be/z-J_KuNqWhw
Russian_Doll_888@reddit
It was acceptable for men, but what was ignored is that women wanted it. People victim blamed a lot (still do) saying she knew what she was doing. Maybe some did, but some didn't and those women were assaulted or raped, or shut out of jobs (or both). This disconnect is that many thought women enjoyed the attention and secretly loved it. Again, maybe a few do, but not the majority.
corpus-luteum@reddit
That's the point, some did and some didn't. But the fact that some were willingly "giving head to get ahead" does not, and should never, detract from the fact that Hollywood is a cesspit.
HighJeanette@reddit
Women wanted it?
Russian_Doll_888@reddit
On no!!! Mis-typed that!! Women did NOT want it.
corpus-luteum@reddit
Have you seen the film 'Babylon'?
I wouldn't recommend it as a film, but if you want an idea of how they behaved in the beginning, it's educational.
HighJeanette@reddit
They did not care. Women do not matter.
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Prudent_Will_7298@reddit
Bette Davis' daughter got married when she was 16. (That was in the 1960s, I think. ) There was often mentions of "child brides." Seems like it wasn't encouraged, but also not that big of a deal.
Peter Lawford's last wife was 17 when they got together (he was in his 50s or 60s). All those Rat Pack guys were screwing around constantly and no one checked IDs.
Errol Flynn said he liked his whiskey old and his girls young. Doesn't seem like people cared too much. Allegations against him weren't taken seriously or believed at the time.
Seems like most people believed it was a woman's responsibility to evade men's sexual advances. That view was expressed very openly for a long time.
RogerClyneIsAGod2@reddit
I'd venture to guess that every single rock star from the distant & near past had underaged groupies & I'm sure more than a few of those rock stars of them had sex with them too.
cyvaquero@reddit
To be blunt, it was tolerated as part of the business. The casting couch was a punchline for decades before Weinstein and Polanski.
Fritzo2162@reddit
Yeah, it was just part of the business. Same with the rock music scene back in the 70s.
aduirne@reddit
Google "baby groupies" if you want to be really grossed out.
archiebarchy@reddit
There were none! 😉
SoCal7s@reddit
Looks like my thoughts have mostly been addressed but I’ll add… …I took an intro to directing class in Santa Monica and a student asked the professor about the casting couch (this was in the late 90s) Everyone laughed, some of the guys a little too hard and the professor said, with little emotion, “you’re not going to get jobs like that. But if you’re not getting jobs, you’ll get opportunities to get jobs, like that. And guys, these days you’re more expected to put out than the girls so I wouldn’t be laughing so hard. I’ll just say that anyone you’re willing to have sex with for fun; why wouldn’t you have sex with them to get ahead, get noticed, get to rub shoulders with the A List?”
This was in a class in 1999. Of course he wasn’t talking about coercion; to him the casting couch was simply Plan B
HortenseDaigle@reddit
I knew a man who auditioned for the Tv show Batman and Robin, for the part of Robin. He was propositioned by either the producer or director (somebody in charge) and he turned him down. he didn't get the part.
Turbulent_Tale6497@reddit
That actually sounds like a balanced answer, which was probably pretty rare in the 90s
InfernalTest@reddit
Its not just casting either
And there are plenty of people to perpetrate it and also take advantage of it ....
LaFemmeD_Argent@reddit
Sadly, he’s not wrong.
Cinisajoy2@reddit
Being an older Gen-X, no matter what they say later in life, most of those girls/women knew exactly what they were doing. Not just in Hollywood.
Now my older self can understand what the girls got out of older guys, but I still don't understand why an older guy would want a girl he couldn't even legally buy a drink for.
Also even as a younger girl, I don't understand why any adult would want an obviously undeveloped girl.
HighJeanette@reddit
Because they wanted to f children
Cinisajoy2@reddit
I still don't understand that mind set .anymore than I did back then. I found that type disgusting back then and now.
I am also grateful for the ones that protected me from a predator.
BettieNuggs@reddit
i took a 23 yr old guy to my prom. there was a form to fill out allowing him to come. it was a different world. girls were expected to date older men date younger.
tequilavip@reddit
I was 19 yrs and two months, while my date (eventually my wife) was 17 years and eight months.
No forms at her school. We had a blast, btw!
Weird-one0926@reddit
Shrugged and said, "That's Hollywood"
Trolkarlen@reddit
The old casting couch
That_Jicama2024@reddit
They would go to Weinstein's hotel room, get gr*ped and then "become a star" and were meant to STFU about it their whole career.
TheTeamDad@reddit
Or rejected his advances and never worked again leaving people to wonder "why isn't X in movies anymore?"
Boo-Boo97@reddit
There was a comment at the peak of MeToo basically asking how many young adult women appeared in 1, 2, 3 movies then just disappeared. Made me wonder how many ended up in a room with Weinstein, or any of his compatriots
ConcertinaTerpsichor@reddit
Everyone figured it happened and that women in the industry knew what they were letting themselves in for.
Emz423@reddit
Probably one of the subconscious reasons why I knew that industry was off-limits.
Humble_Diner32@reddit
It was easier for the predators, mostly men, to deny the accusations and bad mouth the women as crazy or difficult or something along those lines. Couple that with people protecting themselves first and foremost and you had a culture that smirked at or dismissed such cries. Much like the political climate involving our current administration; as long as they are benefiting from it they let it happen.
GreatOne1969@reddit
Or the studio bosses and the media covered up for them. Much like the administration and media covered up for our prior president.
Humble_Diner32@reddit
Prior and present.
ideapit@reddit
They didn't react. It was covered up, victims were discredited or blamed. Or it was just straight up ok to sexually assault or sexually harass women.
I'm not saying things are great now but the shift in behavior is remarkable.
When I was a kid, no woman could legally have a mortgage or credit card on their own. A man had to be co-signed.
Potential_Lie_1177@reddit
It was often believed that women who get assaulted were asking for it based on how they dressed, how they behaved, if they were alone with men. Why didn't just stay home?
There wasn't always respect for actresses either, they are basically selling their bodies.
LionessInDC@reddit
This and then further traumatizing them by ripping apart their dating history as well.
Potential_Lie_1177@reddit
They were damaged "goods", no men would want to marry a woman who has been around (perhaps they liked being touched even against their will !?!) and unmarried women were doomed. At least that is how my parents' generation thought.
Salty-Pack-4165@reddit
Many stars spoke about it long before Metoo starting way back in 1930a. Some court cases happened but judges were part of the clique and sentenced culprits to fines that were often forgiven or laughable. Shirley Temple spoke about this,so did Judy Garland. Both were dismissed as either hysterical,seeking fame/attentions. Many of those who tried to speak up lost their jobs.
floridansk@reddit
You can see a difference between before and after me too in the Game of Thrones series. Early seasons had tons of graphic and extended nudity in scenes and then suddenly didn’t.
Putrid-Tale-5114@reddit
Hollywood Babylon, great book of old Hollywood.
cnation01@reddit
It was crazy back then. Me and my siblings were not raised with a lot of supervision and it led to some detrimental situations.
One pertaining to your question was that when my sister was 15, she was manipulated into a relationship by a 25 year old man.
He got physical with her at one point and the police got involved. They didnt do anything to him. We were home alone, I was 12 and it was 3am. the cops didnt ask where an adult was. Didnt question the relationship about a teen and a grown ass man. They just seperated them and left.
This was some loser guy from my neighborhood. In Hollywood, with all of those rich and influential men. Im sure they did whatever they wanted with women.
Glad its over, its gross. Also glad these predators are going to prison for it.
Andyman1973@reddit
Over??? As long as Hollyweird exists, it continues. Also the music industry too.
The-0mega-Man@reddit
If you were in the business and wanted to stay in the business you kept your mouth shut. Some young folks don't much care about random sex to get jobs, but others do. The first type have an advantage. Drugs and drinking even the playing field.... until they don't. Then rehab. Hollywood was and still is a dirty business.
GreatOne1969@reddit
The thing about Weinstein is, what about the women who did the deed and took the career opportunities, and never spoke about it?
The-0mega-Man@reddit
Those are the ones at the Oscars you saw clapping for him and cheering. He made them famous. They didn't much care they had to let him do them to get there. I suspect most of them would have been doing that anyhow for other things. Rent, etc...
Automatic-Unit-8307@reddit
They voted him to become President
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Guidance-Still@reddit
Hmm interesting
OldHaggittyHag@reddit
Read about Lauren Chapin. That poor girl. And you know, it's not just the girls that were preyed upon. Lots of boys as well.
raerae1991@reddit
It was called the casting couch and accepted as the typical dues that were paid to be famous
MuricanPoxyCliff@reddit
So, I was just watching "Whose Line Is It Anyway" from mid-90's with my kid. Still an amazing gut-busting lol show but... one of the skits had two men singing to an audience member, an actress... and quickly turned into a quasi-ironic? punch up of her on the casting couch. Absolutely cringe. Audience and all were laughing in Weinstein.
LissaBryan@reddit
People have treated predation like it's aspirational. "He's rich and famous! Of course he's going to prey on underage girls and abuse women! That's I would do if I could!"
Novel_Pin_6784@reddit
We didn't have social media to cause a us to be a SJW.
We only knew what was going on in our community.
fleetiebelle@reddit
Predators existed in our communities as well. "He's a good man - you don't want to ruin someone's life, do you?"
Usual_Confection6091@reddit
Totally this
Novel_Pin_6784@reddit
Just like that piece of shit Sunday school teacher I had for 1 class and refused to go back. My grandparents refused to believe me. I hope he is burning in hell.
BonScott3@reddit
They were all aware it was happening. Nobody cared and as long as they got the role they were happy I guess. Hollywood joked about it often and even gave the rapists awards like Polanski got an Oscar and Hollywood even gave him a standing ovation.
One thing you should know, if you haven’t figured it out by now, is ALL of Hollywood are really really really terrible awful people. The lowest of the low.
KalelRChase@reddit
Sadly it not just Hollywood.
HorseyDung@reddit
Much of it got swept under the rug, women did not dare to speak out, afraid of backlash, or their own reputation.
Just read the story of Judy Garland, that's kind of telling about Hollywood.
Usual_Confection6091@reddit
What predators? We didn’t hear shit.
MassCasualty@reddit
Stories get to the public faster now.
There were Hollywood rumors....
joelav@reddit
Bob Barker
Bleep_Bloop_Derp@reddit
Stuff would come out years later in tell-all books (if at all). Not like today, where if Andy Cohen is rude to a waiter, it’s live streaming a second later.
Phobos1982@reddit
Most of it happened before the internet existed. It was hushed-up and anytime someone tried to make a stink about it, they were blacklisted (like Brendan Fraser).
jt2ou@reddit
There’s a certain amount of acceptance to groupie culture in the live concert scene back then, that is not acceptable or even understandable by now’s generation. Many teenage girls (16-17) were going to concerts to hook up w the musicians. Those girls knew exactly what they were doing and were commonly seen as consenting. Now, those artists who have admitted to participating are being portrayed as grooming predators. It just wasn’t that way for many other those encounters. Some were and that’s sad but true.
Roman Polanski is a shitbag who should have went to jail, but the Oscars went on to give him a statue and people still watch it. I don’t and haven’t because I don’t want to support an institution that rewards child rapists. But that’s just me.
kcsews@reddit
It WAS ALL HUSHED UP....exactly like shit still going on today. Im glad you saw that. Its IMPORTANT that young women know what's out there . Be safe
Low_Shop8561@reddit
They gave them Golden Globe awards
GrizzliezRule@reddit
With the old saying.. it’s a man’s world.