(Videocardz) Exclusive: Intel Core Ultra 400 "Nova Lake-S" preliminary SKU list leaked: 6 to 52 cores, DDR5-8000 and forward socket compatibility
Posted by Chairman_Daniel@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 198 comments
InflammableAccount@reddit
Cool! Hopefully it and Zen6 go neck-and-neck in all performance use-cases so we can have a proper price war again.
Muzik2Go@reddit
NVL will rule MT performance without a doubt. the only question is low-rez gaming.
ResponsibleJudge3172@reddit
AMD gets 50% more cores, Intel 100%. Why is it controversial?
timorous1234567890@reddit
Venice is a 33% increase in core count over Turin and offers a 70% increase in performance.
IPC and core clocks will matter a lot as will memory bandwidth feeding that many cores and threads so a lot of unknowns to know which will be faster or if they trade blows.
soggybiscuit93@reddit
Server SKUs also have more headroom for all core clock increases
ResponsibleJudge3172@reddit
And Intel is also rumored to have higher IPC per P core. Not hard to figure out when Pantherlake today has higher IPC than Zen 5. Now double the core count of P cores.
E cores are the same deal.
Again, what is so controversial here? AMD has not had a lead in client MT for years now. Has been a tie more or less
InflammableAccount@reddit
Oh look, more baseless speculation.
Geddagod@reddit
I mean I dislike how confidently he said that as well... but cmon just looking at the raw specs from the rumors I think it's pretty likely NVL will be able to beat Zen 6 in nT perf.
timorous1234567890@reddit
According to AMDs numbers a 33% core count increase is worth a 70% performance increase in server.
Extrapolating that to desktop is a bit wonky due to memory bandwidth and the specific tests in use but I don't think it is a foregone conclusion that NVL will be faster than Z6 in nT workloads.
InflammableAccount@reddit
Oh look, even more baseless speculation.
Neither of us know what the thermal or power limit on all-core workloads will be for either product.
Geddagod@reddit
You are commenting under a post that links to an article that is, in your own words, "baseless speculation". Idk what you expect lol.
Something that is pretty flexible and frankly, has not really been a limit for multi core flagship processors in DIY for a while, especially for Intel.
Just look at how high the cores boost in Intel's newest CPUs. They are not that far off the Fmax of a single core on all core boost.
Muzik2Go@reddit
Just common sense Guy.
Muzik2Go@reddit
24 core Zen6 will compete with the 44 core NVL chip though in MT. the 48(52) core NVL will be the cpu version of the RTX **90 series gpu. a League of it's own.
goldcakes@reddit
We’re already in a one sided price war tbh.
250K Plus and 270K Plus is incredible value for money, if you’re okay with dead platform, and ESPECIALLY if you do some productivity (video editing etc), it’s a no brainer to go intel right now. Ridiculous value.
InflammableAccount@reddit
Well, we'll see. If AMD doesn't cut their prices then clearly the Arrow Lake Refresh prices weren't low enough to cut a huge chunk out of AMD's sales.
jedidude75@reddit
Good to see Intel coming back swinging after the 200 seried was a bit of a let down. I've been on AMD forever at this point but I would love a reason to switch over and try out Intel for a change.
East-Today-7604@reddit
Coming back in terms of performance in professional applications ? Sure, that's great.
Coming back in terms of gaming performance ? Too early for that, let's not forget that Zen 5 wasn't impressive either, and it's likely that AMD will show something great too with new architecture.
Once Intel reaches parity/becomes better for gaming and their socket support will feature at least 3 real generations (no refresh bullshit), I will consider them as a real option to switch from 9800X3D, but until then, AMD is the way if you primarily care about gaming and want the best experience for your money.
elkond@reddit
if ring perf is good then bllc nullifies amd's advantage from x3d chips while getting more perf and likely perf/w
East-Today-7604@reddit
That's the point - no real reason to be optimistic based on rumors, especially after Intel increased prices on their CPUs twice in a short period of time, which made this Arrow Lake Refresh a paper launch at those MSRP prices.
And that's the reason why I mentioned new architecture for Zen 6 - X3D by itself is not enough, and Zen 5 was very similar to Zen 4 in terms of gaming performance, Zen 6 is likely to be very different.
elkond@reddit
i looked through what was googleable and on paper it doesnt look so much cut and dry, bllc equalizes x3d (probably not the 52c config for gaming tho that'd be a miracle), single core perf uplift vs arrow (and arrow lost in gaming to raptor because of c2c latencies and stupid ring/tile layout), it's going to be a new socket but with multi gen support (hell freezing over intel going back to multigen sockets lmao), like amd is raising prices in accord as well, i don't see how it wouldnt be good value
plus you get xe3 igpu, windows scheduler these days is fairly decent so u can offload hardware accel onto igpu
VenditatioDelendaEst@reddit
This is not significant for performance unless the code abominably bad. The latency that is bad in ARL, the one that games are sensitive to, is core-to-DRAM.
The reason to core-to-core latency appears in technical reviews is that it's a fun benchmark to write and can reveal interesting things about the topology of the part.
East-Today-7604@reddit
Yep, that's why I want to try Intel CPU for the first time since 6700K in 2017, but at this moment Intel CPUs are a pretty small interest to me, I primarily play on my PC and 9800X3D performance is enough for every task even outside of gaming, and for me to consider Intel I want at least 3 real generations per socket and comparable gaming performance - e-cores, scheduler, offloading hardware acceleration sounds good if gaming performance with new CPUs will be identical to AMD premium X3Ds or better, I'm never attached to brand and open to new options, sadly last few Intel generation were not impressive enough for me, but it might change in the future.
elkond@reddit
well u trade stuff, agesa needs to be 1y+ until usb devices stop disconnecting on random, memory controller is... it is., higher avg fps but 0.1% are awful even with x3d, it's smth for smth
gaming right now is u run raptor (i'm on 13900k and was considering arrow but nope, not with that hellish latencies) or u go amd, so it'd be nice if nova pans out because i really really really dont like how zen's I/O makes the pc feel
East-Today-7604@reddit
Intel Core Ultra 7 270K Plus Review & Benchmarks vs. 7800X3D, 9700X & More
9800X3D 0.1&1% lows are noticeably higher than 14900K or 270K Plus, 190 1% lows vs 158 on 14900K, which is the best Intel gaming CPU in terms of raw power without accounting for efficiency.
Intel Core Ultra 7 270K Plus Review - Intel's Fastest Gaming CPU - Minimum FPS/RTX 5090 | TechPowerUp
I understand that by "properly" overclocking Intel CPU and tweaking memory you can achieve better results, but I have no interest in spendings hours/days while trying to achieve 24/7 stable result, there is no reason to when I can get the best gaming experience with no trouble/tweaking, I do some tweaking but to slightly tune EXPO profile, not to create headache with instability problems, which easily can occur when it comes to RAM overclocking.
elkond@reddit
why not, arrow lake had fucked up ring but nova aint arrow based
Geddagod@reddit
Intel's ring has not been able to compete with AMD's in ages. Hell, with Zen 5 AMD moved to a mesh and are still able to clock it at core speed while Intel has not had a very high frequency ring since what, 14nm stuff?
It's fine?
ResponsibleJudge3172@reddit
Not competing latency in ages yet Intel gaming performance has been competitive
Geddagod@reddit
How?
You mean in nT, right?
elkond@reddit
wym how, did amd jump ahead in single thread when i wasnt looking?
Geddagod@reddit
Intel and AMD have esentially the same ST perf for the past 2 generations.
But for bLLC to "nullify" the X3D advantage, even with a good ring, you would need bLLC's additional cache to not increase the L3 latency penalty by too much compared to X3D's what, 4 cycles?
You would also need NVL's uncore/mem latency improvements to keep up with Zen 6's, and you would need Zen 6 and NVL to have similar ST perf again.
So it's a reasonable expectation, but not nearly as much of a reality as your comment makes it out to be.
And how does perf/watt factor into this?
elkond@reddit
until we know more it's all rumours but rumours are zen6 clocks higher, nova pcores have higher ipc, so why shouldnt they be at worst close
nova pcores share l2 cache which should help immensly with core-core latencies (aside from tile design), and if zen6 will have similar packaging to strix halo, then it looks like a good competition why would bllc increase penalty if intel has foveros 3d??
Geddagod@reddit
That's how it has been for the past couple of generations, sure (close ST perf). Which is why I agree it's reasonable.
However the Fmax gap can be sizable if NVL doesn't improve Fmax much... while the IPC gap is likely going to be small given Intel's tocks usually have \~15-20% IPC jumps, while AMD's tick's have a 10-15% IPC jump usually.
I can totally see AMD having a 5-10% ST lead.
Which is not usually a large issue in gaming regardless.
The larger combined L2 would help hitrates ig.
It's not rumored to use foveros 3D. It's rumored to be just a slab of extra L3 in the compute die, not on top of the compute die (or below).
elkond@reddit
foveros 3d is not just for putting stuff on top of each other...
Geddagod@reddit
The extra cache is not rumored to be on top, or below, or packaged in a separate chiplet across (which I'm guessing is what you are getting at?) the compute tile.
It's rumored to be literally integrated into the compute tile itself, as part of the compute tile. So there will be another die, with the same 8+16 cores, just wider, to incorporate the extra L3 cache.
Geddagod@reddit
Didn't see that edit:
Who?
What?
According to what?
What does the phoronix link supposed to show?
DonStimpo@reddit
The new 270k and 250k are great price to performance. But Intel really needs a halo product again to get mind share back
elkond@reddit
productivity its amazing, but u still gotta deal with arrow's latency so they aint optimal choice for gaming. for aaanything else tho, fantastic chips
KARMAAACS@reddit
Honestly, the refresh makes it very decent at gaming, it basically competes with non-X3D chips. Obviously if you game only then X3D is the right choice, but if you work and game, Arrow Lake 270K is a very solid choice. I would still personally opt for a 9950X3D for working and gaming, but I can't exactly say Arrow Lake Refresh isn't amazing value for money.
psi-storm@reddit
They are basically a 50% price cut from the MSRP of the original variants (265k and 285k). Yes, they are good value now, but Intel is paying for it with margins, while zen 5 is super cheap to produce.
Asleeper135@reddit
52 cores? Like, on a consumer platform? Zen 6 has been rumored to increase core counts for years, but that sounds like an insane thing to compete with, even if it is mostly E cores.
RealPjotr@reddit
It's 16 P + 32 E + 4 LP cores, all single thread.
Zen6 will be 24C/48T + 2C(/4T?) LP, for a total of possibly 52 threads.
Vb_33@reddit
Zen 6 desktop will have the 2 LP cores? I thought it was all big cores
greggm2000@reddit
Nope. Top-end as currently rumored will have both top-end Zen 6 and Nova Lake having the same number of threads. Ofc that doesn't tell you how they'll relate in performance, only that (IMO) it'll be an especially interesting matchup bc of that.
VenditatioDelendaEst@reddit
I wonder if that means they're finally fixing the 15W idle power deficit?
greggm2000@reddit
We shall see!
ThatRandomGamerYT@reddit
the low power cores are supposedly on the new IO die they have
RealPjotr@reddit
Correct. It's a new core, so we don't know if it's SMT and we don't know if it's the same ISA, like with Zen6c. It would be a shame if it's not 100% compatible.
Beefmytaco@reddit
Good lord, the amount of efficiency cores they toss on these things is ridiculous TBH.
I guess at least 16P cores and not 8c16t P cores this time around.
Geddagod@reddit
Rumored to be 16+32+4.
Problem is (for many gaming enthusiasts at least, from what I read online) that the 16 P-cores will be split into 2 tiles.
Beefmytaco@reddit
ooof, bad design choice imo.
Killmeplsok@reddit
Performance wise, definitely, but there are other considerations while designing a chip, cost being the biggest considerations most of the time.
Beefmytaco@reddit
For enterprise needs, those high efficiency core cpu's are a boon, and since dell and HP, the two biggest supplies of enterprise computers in the US still mainly use only intel chips, I can see why they'd go ham with them.
Really wish they'd start using ryzen a lot more, but I know for a fact these companies use proprietary made mobo's, so I know for a fact other than the high performance systems targeting threadripper, they're not going to make a custom x670/x870 mobo for their use. Sad but true.
Killmeplsok@reddit
They tried, I had some friend (not reliable statement online, I know) that worked for DELL and he basically said that AMD don't have enough CPU supply for more models for them, and they're frequently CPU constrained, supply volume wise even with current relatively few models.
How true it is, I don't know, how true it is still even if it was true back then, I am also not sure, this was about 2 years ago, Dell only had Ryzen on non-business laptops back then IIRC.
AHrubik@reddit
Its the first step as most software still doesn't use more than a few cores. The problem is the SKU spread. The base SKU still only has 4 cores so software vendors have to take that into account as most people won't opt for 52.
Geddagod@reddit
It would have 4LPE cores as well. IMO the LP island cores are strong enough that they shouldn't be discounted, especially for the lower core count models where they contribute a higher % of total nT perf.
AHrubik@reddit
Depends on the software and what it needs from the hardware, An LP core may be sufficient for some apps and not for others.
EnglishBrekkie_1604@reddit
If it’ll run on Skylake or Zen 2 it’ll run on the LPE cores just fine. There’s not a lot outside of games and pro software that won’t run on it actually.
ResponsibleJudge3172@reddit
LPE cores are closer to 12th Gen P cores
Noreng@reddit
Lunar Lake is an excellent example of just how capable an LPE cluster actually is.
astrobarn@reddit
Games, ms office and adobe are the only apps I use which are poorly threaded for actual workloads. Everything else loads up all 32 logical cores on my CPU when the actual work (rendering, data processing, image processing) starts 🤷♂️
InflammableAccount@reddit
Office and anything Adobe like Steam Locomotives that have been modified and modified and modified over a century to run on modern rail systems.
Fucking fund your dev, filthy c-suites. God knows they have the money.
Loose_Skill6641@reddit
and it's dual dies, so may not be the best for gaming, seems like intel wants to make consumer platform chip with high work performance
jigsaw1024@reddit
How are we not running into a memory wall with this many cores on desktop?
2 channels has got to be bottlenecking at this point.
KARMAAACS@reddit
I mean it seems to me like Intel learned a lot from Arrow Lake, I have full confidence that Nova Lake will be at least not a disaster like Arrow Lake was, especially with bLLC.
hyperactivedog@reddit
ARL with fixes and patches was decent. ARL+ is good.
The main thing against ARL is 1080p gaming with a $3000+ video card. Which isn't a real world test.
PT10@reddit
It is for me. I'm still on 1080p with a 5090 waiting for 500Hz QDOLED 1440p screens w/newer DisplayPort.
hyperactivedog@reddit
Why though? Are you played to play competitive shooters?
Pimpmuckl@reddit
I wish that was true.
There are a ton of games that are basically impossible to benchmark that profit immensely from good CPU performance and v-cache, bLLC or whatever you want to call extra cache.
It's your tarkovs, Path of exile, world of warcraft raids, esports titles in general like Dota 2, even more obscure Indies a lot of the time.
I had a 7900 XTX + 7800X3D rig and tested a friend's 5090 and couldn't tell the difference for the games I play (AAA different story, duh) but chugging in a 9800X3D? That was a solid upgrade.
The 7800 went straight into a new living room PC.
AAA isn't everything and which CPU is right for the user is a very difficult question to answer
mediandude@reddit
More like 2x24+4.
trackdaybruh@reddit
I wonder what the latency will be between Intel's two die, better, worst, or the same compared to AMD's infinity fabric.
Gronfir@reddit
I also wonder if the infinity fabrics inter-die-latency will improve with zen6 maybe going to a fan-out design.
psi-storm@reddit
Yes, it will be much better with fan out/ sea of wires. Also quite a bit more energy efficient for mobile.
Geddagod@reddit
That is the hope, but strix halo didn't see any sort of latency improvement using better packaging.
psi-storm@reddit
Bandwidth improved, and power of course.
https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1o9mn9k/comment/nk3jxj2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
hyperactivedog@reddit
Strix Halo was also the first attempt. Second attempts are often better.
We shall see.
U3011@reddit
Was Strix Halo not an overclocked from the factory processor?
Faranocks@reddit
Probably about the same or very slightly better. I expect it to be similar to their mobile lineup they've had for years, where they have a die-to-die interconnect. IIRC this is still over SerDes, rather than Fan-Out. Latency improvements compared to AMD would mostly be a difference in SerDes implementation and physical distance reduction.
the_dude_that_faps@reddit
I got a 7950x3d a few years ago and while it may not be perfect on every game there's one thing for certain. Shader compilation is wicked fast now.
siuol11@reddit
It will have a different socket and chipset.
Suspicious_pasta@reddit
It's meant as entry workstation. Internally kinda being thought of as hypervisor use.
Exist50@reddit
Virtualized environments don't play too well with hybrid.
Seanspeed@reddit
Very few consumers have high score-scaling workloads as a big priority.
Nova Lake needs to impress on an IPC/single thread basis to recapture the gaming audience.
Asleeper135@reddit
Shader compilation is multithreaded, so there is at least some way modern games benefit from more cores. I'm actually curious what they'll offer in laptops. I use VMs a lot at work, and I would appreciate the cores to spare for them.
InflammableAccount@reddit
All depends on what they price them at. If the 56core SKU costs $800-$1000 and whoops a <$700 24core Zen6 CPU, then ok.
Vb_33@reddit
Zen 6 will be 48 threads
AHrubik@reddit
All that horsepower and still only 24 PCI-E lanes. Not quite the bare minimum but pretty close.
InflammableAccount@reddit
Sigh. Yeah, in this I am disappointed in all the big companies. AMD/Intel/Apple/Qualcomm. Name one I missed.
No one cares to give consumers a reasonably priced platform with >24 PCIe lanes. Gotta pay Enterprise prices for possibly overkill hardware if you want more lanes on a single chip.
-protonsandneutrons-@reddit
Honestly, I'd even take 24 PCIe lanes if they could be bifurcated completely, e.g., 24 x1 PCIe 5.0 connections via MCIO or Oculink. VC claims 4x4 PCIe bifurcation is possible, but that's too few, esp. with PCIe 5.0.
VenditatioDelendaEst@reddit
A high-end motherboard could use switch chips to further break out 4x5.0 into say, 4x8x3.0 (oversubscribed). Probably even better for signal integrity 'cause you don't have to run 1x5.0 from the CPU, a signficant distance across the board, through a PCB connector, down a cable, and into another PCB connector.
It'd be bloody expensive, though.
InflammableAccount@reddit
Honestly that would be cool too, but not as cool as just more lanes.
-protonsandneutrons-@reddit
That is fair; more lanes are always better. I want to pretend it is the bandwidth of 48 PCIe 4.0 lanes or 96 PCIe 3.0 lanes, but it's not the same—you're right.
goldcakes@reddit
99% of people who buy computers (not the /r/hardware subreddit which is heavily skewed) don't need more than >24 PCIe lanes.
_hlvnhlv@reddit
Eeeeh... Yes but actually no?
I have a 500 gig and 2tb NVMes, it would be really useful to have more pcie lanes for storage, but as things stands right now, I'll have to throw one of them away.
Basically everyone that I know has run into this issue, NVMe is just god awful in consumer hardware for future proofing.
InflammableAccount@reddit
99% of people don't need a Threadripper either, but it's clearly worth making for AMD.
Vb_33@reddit
Threadripper isn't enterprise prices.
InflammableAccount@reddit
$1,400 entry price isn't exactly HEDT, either. In fact, AMD has a cheaper Epyc, the 9115. It's list price is $1,214.
It's only 16 cores at a low 4.1GHz, but you get 128 PCIe lanes. But of course that pretty much excludes desktop oriented motherboards with socket SP5.
The Epyc 9255 gets the same 24c 4x6 CCD config of the $1,400 TR 9960x, and costs $2,495. Not quite double, but if that is the gap between "enterprise" and "not enterprise," it ain't that big.
naicha15@reddit
Market segmentation baby.
Not a whole lot of people want that. And the even fewer who have business cases actually needing it are mostly willing to pay out the ass for it.
InflammableAccount@reddit
I'm aware, which makes me all the more annoyed. They could, but they don't because they can get away with it. Just checking the prices, the cheapest TR+Mobo is $2,000. Gets you 80 PCIe lanes.
So the consumer to either get 24x, or 80x. No in between.
KARMAAACS@reddit
Blame AMD, they could've changed this paradigm at any time (especially around Zen2) to put pressure on Intel to give more PCI-E lanes, instead they followed Intel's model and now that they're ahead, nothing will change.
InflammableAccount@reddit
By that logic why not blame Intel? They could have squashed AMD's attempt at HEDT at any time by just continuing the X-platform instead of axing it.
There's no one company to blame, as is often the case in duopolies or Oligopolies.
KARMAAACS@reddit
Well for one, Intel was the market leader, they didn't need to change their strategy because they were winning at the time. Why change something that isn't broken? This is why I say AMD won't change anything now because they're the market leader. I'm consistent with my views which is to say that unless your strategy is failing, there's no incentive to change it, clearly your customers are happier to choose you, over your competitor(s).
As for why they didn't squash AMD's HEDT, they simply couldn't. Intel believed for too long in monolithic chips and couldn't respond to AMD linking four chiplets together fast enough. It takes 5 years to make a CPU from start to finish. By the time Intel adopted tiles to increase core counts for an HEDT competitor, AMD was the market leader in HEDT with Threadripper.
No, I respectfully disagree and here's why AMD is squarely to blame, AMD were behind for a long time and clearly needed to change something to shift the paradigm at the time and get consumers on board. They did shift that paradigm by increasing core counts and by creating X3D in regular Desktop tier CPUs and look how successful it was. There was zero incentive for Intel to change anything because they were the market leader and had a good thing going for them. The only reason Intel increased core counts was because they knew AMD were going to with Zen1 and the only reason cache has increased and Intel is doing bLLC is because of AMD's X3D. Without AMD we'd be stuck with 4 core desktop CPUs like we had for basically a decade since Core 2 Quad CPUs.
You can only blame AMD for simply not putting enough pressure on Intel to change things up and give consumers more than they had previously. Now it falls on Intel to take some risks like AMD did years ago and it seems they're at least trying to get parity with AMD with bLLC and increasing core counts. What we truly need is something revolutionary like CAMM2 RAM support or a new technology to enter the desktop market to give Intel a new lead. Perhaps Intel will eventually increase PCI-E lanes to put pressure on AMD, but it's maybe not a priority for now, especially with most Desktop users being single GPU builders and NVME storage prices being skyhigh and I doubt Intel is that desperate yet anyways.
glitchvid@reddit
Yup, 40 lanes was perfect, and the reason I'm still on X99. Wish either Intel or AMD would do real HEDT again instead of just having workstation. I'd even be content with 16 of those lanes being just PCIe 4.0.
InflammableAccount@reddit
Exactly.
Threadripper Zen1 intro'd at $549, Zen+ at $649, Zen2 $1,399. This right here? $1,400? This is when it all just went out the window. From Zen2 on it was a $1400-$1500 price floor.
void_nemesis@reddit
That's what the market wants, unfortunately. Almost no one uses more than a single GPU and maybe two M.2s in their builds (and the majority of computers sold today are laptops and OEM office PCs), everything else goes through the chipset. PCIe PHYs take up a ton of die space that would be much better used by universally loved and used features like the NPU :)
InflammableAccount@reddit
Multiple GPU-ShmeePU, I'd just like to have the option for more complex storage systems. But yes, I'm aware that I also am in the minority.
That said, I'm not up-in-arms, demanding every office PC or laptop SOC come with 40+ PCIe lanes. Just the lack of options between said "Office PC" and 80 lanes with a $2000 minimum entry cost for a Threadripper Non-Pro + Motherboard.
xiaodown@reddit
That, I don’t get. I recently built a home lab for AI and went AMD specifically for PCIe lanes.
People spending big money on new CPUs will want at least 38 PCIe lanes. Two x16 slots and an x4 for the nvme should be a minimum.
noiserr@reddit
PCIE5 lanes are twice as fast as PCIE4 lanes. So it's "like" having 48 lanes.
xiaodown@reddit
.... kinda. Not really. Sort of.
Yes, having PCIe gen5 lanes are good - if you have devices that can make use of that. Few devices can. Some new NVMe SSDs can; some extremely high end graphics cards support gen5 lanes but don't really use more bandwidth than gen4.
But there can be issues. For example, my AI lab is using an Asrock Taichi AMD motherboard which has two physical x16 slots. The CPU I have - a Ryzen 7 9700x - gives it the most PCI-e lanes it can handle, but even so, I still have to bifurcate the x16 physical slots into an x8/x8 config in order to use both GPUs:
The cards are pci-e gen4, and they are capable of x16 @ gen4. But because the chip and motherboard can't do enough lanes, they're limited to x8 @ gen4.
So effectively, since I'm at x8 @ gen4, that's the same bandwidth available as x16 @ gen3.
This isn't a huge deal for gaming - the cards perform within a couple percent in gaming benchmarks when clocked down to pci-e gen3 vs. full speed at gen4. But for AI inference, it does mean I'm leaving performance on the table. I'd be able to get probably 10-15% more tokens/sec if I could run the cards at full speed. I just couldn't justify the cost of a full workstation motherboard and workstation or HEDT CPU to get two x16 @gen4 or gen5 lanes, plus still have lanes left over for the NVMe SSD.
And at this point, I'm using all of the PCI-e lanes that are available, except the ones for the "extras". My NVMe SSD is pci-e gen4 x4, and the two cards are running at x8 gen4. If I wanted to add another GPU, I would have to get an M.2 to x16 adapter (which exist; I have one), and move the SSD to an m.2 slot that's connected to the ... whatever it's called now, the "southbridge" or whatever, so that it wouldn't be connected to the CPU directly and would be competing with USB and SATA and the audio chipset and all that junk. Technically, that would mean I could use the SSD's current slot for the m.2 adapter - but even then, it would only be running at PCI-e gen4 x4. Plus, loading model files from the SSD into vram would be noticeably slower, so if I had to do any swapping of models in and out of vram, I'd be adding probably 500ms - 1s to my ttft, because of that southbridge bottleneck.
Anyway, tl;dr: faster PCI-e lanes is good but doesn't always solve the issues, and really only matters when you have hardware that can use the latest gen. Given all else equal, i'd rather have 2x the (current_gen - 1) lanes than 1x the (current_gen) lanes.
2014justin@reddit
Can I ask a dumb question? If these are PCiE 5 lanes, can I force it to run PCiE 4x16 on a graphics card plugged into slot one? Would this free up lanes since it’s not running at 5.0 speeds? (And probably no performance loss)
Noreng@reddit
Years ago, you could actually get motherboards with PCIe hubs that would take the PCIe 3.0 x16 lanes from the CPU, and even allow for a distribution like PCIe 3.0 x16 / x8 / x8.
You no longer see this for two reasons:
SLI and CrossfireX have been dead for nearly a decade.
The switches have become extremely expensive.
RealPjotr@reddit
3090 launched 2020 with SLI (NVlink) if I'm not mistaken? SLI was removed when the 4xxx series launched, to stop us from building AI machines easily with consumer hardware.
Noreng@reddit
Yes, the 3090 had an SLI/NVLINK connector, but there were practically no games supporting it. SLI started losing traction with the advent of temporal effects like TAA, and DX12/Vulkan killed it completely since support now had to be achieved through developer effort.
ProfessionalPrincipa@reddit
Thanks, Broadcom...
Hopelesslymacarbe@reddit
Not naively. You need a pcie switch to do that, and pcie switches are very expensive. I haven’t looked up pcie 5 switches, but a cheap pcie 3 switch card is still over 100usd. Pcie switch chips can also over subscribe, so you could use a single pcie 5 x16 link to create four pcie 4 x16 slots, and as long as they weren’t all trying to talk at the same time they’d each perform at essentially full speed.
It can be (and is to a point) built into the motherboard chipset which would reduce the price, but pcie lane are one of the biggest selling points of moving up to more expensive platforms.
AHrubik@reddit
So the problem is not the PCI-E socket in this case but the card. It has only PCI-E v.4 so restricting to 4 lanes would quarter the bandwidth to the card all the same.
DerpSenpai@reddit
It's PCIe 5 though, you probably could use it effectively as a PCI-E 4 48 lanes, e.g 8x PCI-E for GPUs and you can do 2 of them, 1 for a GPU, another for a NVME Dock that does 8 drives at PCIE 5x1. that leaves you with a fast PCIE 5x4 SSD and 4 more lanes for what you want
exsinner@reddit
Thats assuming intel allows bifurcation at 8x 8x 4x 1x 1x 1x 1x and its probably not going to happen.
DerpSenpai@reddit
The nvme dock is not up to Intel. It's a separate product. They would just need to have a mono with 2 GPU slots at x8.
So x8 x8 x4 x4
exsinner@reddit
Is there any product out there that does what you said? I've looked at plenty of similar commercial product in the past and all of them requires bifurcation.
xdeadzx@reddit
Isn't it?
Noble00_@reddit
These are a weird to segment. Also, there is the rumoured bLLC cache variant. Intel is continuing to give more cores per dollar compared to AMD. So this would be favored in a lot on benchmarks since the majority of reviewers don't really mention or care about more lanes since they'd stick with a single 6090 or something. I do wonder though how much this'll affect Xeon 600 (Granite Rapids-WS) or even Threadripper since those platforms are pretty much your only options for more lanes.
nonaveris@reddit
Would like to see more of the HBM-on-die too. Is it not too much to ask to have 16gb on a smaller die?
AHrubik@reddit
As a former SLI user (yes I'm old) I'm intrigued by the option of using a second weaker card for framegen allowing 100% of my main card to render but that requires having sufficient PCI-E lanes to work with.
Noble00_@reddit
There's a lot of resources on that over at r/losslessscaling. That said, bifurcation is pretty much recommended and for AM5 users you need to read the spec sheet on your mobo before you use a decent GPU otherwise you're limited by MBW. The VC article does state NVL mobos will support bifurcation, that said at what support level we don't know, hopefully much better than AM5 where you'd find it on most boards.
JonWood007@reddit
I posted this in r/intel the other day but the SKU list seems weird. I rearranged some things to make it make more sense.
Core Ultra 9 Extreme (495k)- 52C model
Core Ultra 9 Extreme (490k)- 44C model
Core Ultra 9 (485k)- 28C model
Core Ultra 7 (465k)- 24C model
Core Ultra 5 (445k)- 22C model
Core Ultra 5 (425)- 16C model
Core Ultra 3 (405)- 12C Model
Pentium- 8C model
Celeron- 6C model
Basically, each model has 4 of those LP cores, but if you take away those, you get something very similar to our current setup with arrow lake. So that's where I'm going with this. I'm assuming the two tile ones are HEDT. It looks like only the core ultra 9 models are getting the big cache. And uh...yeah. I'd expect something similar to what arrow lake offers now.
NowThatsMalarkey@reddit
Maybe next generation we can run 4x8-16GB without breaking the bank. 😞
Vb_33@reddit
2029 seems to be the year for pricing to go down to reasonable levels
DuranteA@reddit
I was looking forward to building a new workstation with the dual die version of this -- probably the more affordable one though, assuming the 52 core has an extra halo price surcharge. Back when it was first rumored I was concerned about pricing, given that these core counts were the exclusive domain of far more expensive CPU lines before... but now RAM will dominate the cost of the system anyway.
Still, it will be nice to get these core counts in consumer platforms, and I do think at the top range of that we are getting closer to a saturation point even for many (non-server) workloads that scale reasonably well (but not linearly).
Beefmytaco@reddit
Oh you know it'll either be their 1k dollar 'extreme' option or intel will say 'too many cores on this one, charge 3k for it' like it's a threadripper.
InflammableAccount@reddit
I can't imagine TR prices... But $1k I could see. If and only if it beats AMDs top offering.
Price is everything. If it outpaces a 24 Core Zen6 ($700-800~ probably), then they can charge $900-1k.
WHY_DO_I_SHOUT@reddit
No way 52 cores wouldn't beat 24, even if most of them are E-cores. 270K Plus already almost reaches 9950X in multicore performance (24 cores vs 16).
InflammableAccount@reddit
Really? Really really really? Someone isn't a student of history. Not even recent history.
Because I can find plenty of examples of productivity tests where 8 and 12c Zen4 & 5 CPUs match or beat the 24c 285k. That's 3x and 2x the amount of cores, respectively.
(The 285k also wins plenty of tests too. But that's the point, we don't know how each CPU will perform.)
trackdaybruh@reddit
With Intel giving up on Hyperthreading while AMD continues with their SMT, I wonder if it's going to be the battle of physical cores count vs virtual cores count
ConsistencyWelder@reddit
Zen 6 will have 12 core CCD's, so they'll have a 24 core version presumably called a 10950X. But they'll be full P cores, not a mix of various slow cores with 8 P cores. So it'll be more like Intel fighting with a mix of various cores, but only 8 cores for gaming, against AMD with 12/24 cores plus SMT.
WHY_DO_I_SHOUT@reddit
Shouldn't be an issue. Getting a game to scale to higher core counts is hard. Games struggle to make full use of even 8 cores. There's no speed-up at all from having more cores (see 9950X3D losing to 9800X3D in benchmarks for example: I haven't seen a single gaming benchmark where 9950X3D would be ahead)
Logical-Database4510@reddit
That's because of latency hits due to paying the toll to cross the ccx's
There are games that scale across tons of threads out there. I know Naughty Dog's engine loves tons and tons of threads due to how it creates a RAMdisk and uses the extra cores to swiftly handle asset decompression.
greggm2000@reddit
If they keep the same naming scheme, 11xxx, so 11800X3D for the top single-CCD gaming part. 5xxx = Zen 3, 7xxx = Zen 4, 9xxx = Zen 5. Then again, there's been no 10xxx yet for Zen 5 APUs as far as I'm aware, so who knows?
yee245@reddit
Zen5 APUs for AM5 are under the Ryzen AI 400G series branding. Here's a mention from TechPowerUp, one from Guru3D, and one from ServeTheHome
Here are the product pages on AMD's site:
Now, whether they release a second set of them at some later point under 9000G or 10000G naming or something with less of the chip disabled, I guess we'll find out eventually... but we know how much flak the tech media gave Intel for going to 10000 series after their 9000 series, maybe AMD will decide not to follow suit and move everything to the 3-digit naming to match their mobile and to follow Intel's current naming. Numberwise, I think they'll still be ahead of Intel's numbering scheme by the time Zen6 is out.
ConsistencyWelder@reddit
Yeah you're probably right about that.
Unless they go for a new xxx naming scheme to copy Intel on desktops again. Please don't do that Lisa. Please.
greggm2000@reddit
I’m dreading “AI” being potentially embedded into the name. If the AI bubble pops sometime in the next 6 months, then maybe there won’t be.
Noreng@reddit
I'm sure having 12 P-cores on a CCD will improve gaming performance, just like how the 10900K stayed relevant against the 7700X because of the 10 cores instead of merely 8 cores /s
elkond@reddit
ceo wants HT back at least in xeons, nova lake was too deep in arch to adjust to his whims
Numerlor@reddit
with the 52c sku you're also starting to get into windows not having great support for that many cores for consumer workloads
Kryohi@reddit
Memory bandwidth could be also a problem in many workloads, with 2-channel DDR5 even if it's fast you're not going to properly feed 48 cores for every task.
ButterscotchNo6077@reddit
Heard it would be quad channel
elkond@reddit
idk scheduler seems pretty good these days, been a while since i had to process lasso something else than ctfmon
Numerlor@reddit
Less about the scheduler and more about the legacy apis just not supporting that many cores, so a single app that wasn't made with it in mind will be stuck in a single numa-y group that I'm not even sure if MS even allows on Home
elkond@reddit
oh yeah, legacy api will have issues, but that's why it's legacy and not modern, it's not a default use case for consumer (unless u mean corporate laptop running some hellish ancient vendor lockin e.g. ERP?)
Noreng@reddit
With consumer CPUs approaching the magic 64 threads, game developers would surely start to move away from the legacy api though, right? /s
elkond@reddit
idk man battlefield 6 is coded like piece of cardboard pretending to be an industrial excavator but it'll happily scale from 8 to 32 threads (my i9 doesnt have more so cant test where the ceiling is), and in the meanwhile windows will smoothly manage discord call and an open websocket, with hwinfo running
Noreng@reddit
Not even Cities Skylines 2 will go beyond 64 threads.
Muzik2Go@reddit
I hope not. I have been disabling HT since the 4930k HEDT cpu.
elkond@reddit
tbf these days (e.g. on raptor) disabling HT is not a good idea performance wise, but it's just soo muuuch headache with security stuff that gets resolved by not having HT
DerpSenpai@reddit
And saves on area
Geddagod@reddit
It's not an and/or thing though. Adding E-cores doesn't mean you can't have HT.
hackenclaw@reddit
I think the point is to have a much simplify P core that push absolute ST performance; instead of add security checks + HT component into it.
DerpSenpai@reddit
it absolutely is as SMT adds complexity to schedulers, either way for normal workloads, SMT does not bring more performance anyway. It's good for rendering and not much else. We have enough cores that games do not benefit much from it.
digital_n01se_@reddit
HT adds around +30% multicore performance on average, the 6-core i7 8700K with HT had roughly the same performance as the 8-core (30% more cores) i7 9700K without HT, but 9700K reached its peak with software using 8 threads, 8700K needed the software to fill 12 threads.
I'm not sure about area penalty when you compare a core designed with and without HT from the start.
Geddagod@reddit
Raptor Lake and Alder Lake and Meteor Lake all literally had SMT on their P-cores.
GLC got like a 19% perf boost on average in specint2017 for like 3% extra power draw at Fmax.
If that's the idea, then half of this rumored lineup should just not exist. Worthless extra cores for gaming.
What difference does this make other than semantics?
Artoriuz@reddit
This might sound a little shocking, but you can use computers to do more than just play games.
Geddagod@reddit
Idk why you are saying this to the dude arguing in favor of SMT for the extra nT performance, but sure lol.
Paed0philic_Jyu@reddit
CEO wants HT back because you can market 2x vCPUs to hyperscalers.
There is no other reason.
PastaPandaSimon@reddit
Licensing by physical core is much more common and is the standard for major enterprise software also. Unless that's what you also implied.
Paed0philic_Jyu@reddit
The thing is, a 192-core Turin-dense CPU isn't used all at once, so the theoretical 30% speedup in MT from the cores having SMT is...theoretical.
What actually happens is that in the instances where the hyperscaler enables SMT, it serves one purpose only - to maximize the number of vCPUs that can be offered per CPU/rack.
PastaPandaSimon@reddit
Depends on what you buy it for.
SMT isn’t just about padding vCPU counts, but it also materially improves per-core utilization by filling idle execution slots. Those who make purchasing decisions like getting 2 for 1 there, as it improves performance per dollar. This translates into real throughput gains on the mixed, latency-bound workloads clouds actually run pretty often. Re-enabling SMT is about recovering both efficiency and capacity per $ when software is licensed per physical core.
Paed0philic_Jyu@reddit
Workloads that demand the absolute lowest latency like HFT are negatively impacted by SMT.
PastaPandaSimon@reddit
That also depends. What I meant are instances when a workload is waiting for an available thread. What you mean is a workload when a process requires instances has got a thread assigned. We're speaking of different workloads, thus the different perception.
Paed0philic_Jyu@reddit
All cores are utilized, but that doesn't mean that all the cores are doing the same work.
You could have X number of vCPUs doing database operations, where SMT helps like you said, but then you might have Y number of vCPUs running a web server where peak performance matters more.
All those applications might be running on the same underlying hardware.
Also, for the assumption that the performance gains from SMT in multithreaded loads are preferable, you need to have use cases for large instances.
Most of these discussions severely overestimate just how many companies pay on a regular basis for large instances from their respective cloud providers.
Revenue from large instances are a small fraction of the total revenue for these hyperscalers.
R-ten-K@reddit
Y'all really don't know how these companies work, do you?
elkond@reddit
xD
take a while guess where i worked for half a decade xD
R-ten-K@reddit
If you spent five years at Intel, and came away thinking the CEO there dictates microarchitecture details on a "whim"... not the flex you think it is.
Geddagod@reddit
whims?
alittle_disabled@reddit
Vb_33@reddit
We already had that battle. It's called Zen 5 vs Arrow Lake.
Polar_Banny@reddit
I would hope avx10.2 and APX ISA support.
yusnandaP@reddit
Holup, 2 xe3 for the entire desktop lineup? How "slow" is the igpu?
Key-Invite5027@reddit
I'm curious to see how much of a performance improvement 8+16 offers compared to 270k.
I have high hopes for this.
However, I have absolutely no idea what will happen with the 7200 in the 200S+ and the 8000 memory in Nova Lake, which haven't been released yet. The three major companies are cooperating to drive up memory prices.
It would be great if Nanya released new memory at a lower price, but given the company's current excellent performance, this is quite optimistic.
Probably none of the companies care much about the consumer market.
Jeep-Eep@reddit
If Intel's finally getting its head out of its ass on socket life, I hope AMD is going to steal their dual format thing for AM6.
cdbob@reddit
I've been following nova-lake rumors fairly closely for one particular use case: a home server. Having downsized from epyc to an i5 in my server, I'm really excited for better e cores that are "good enough" for my use case. The idea that a core3 or core5 has that "good enough" performance is quite exciting. Additionally following Lunar Lake, Dark Mount E cores are honestly a huge breath of fresh air to finally fit the desktop; they're a lot better than the base alder lake or N-100 style e-cores. While I understand that hyperthreading offers some performance improvements, I personally leave it disabled for my mostly vm-based workloads on my home server for both power savings, and the meltdown style branch prediction related exploits. In fact I would be more than happy with a unified style e-core in the future for a really low power core. The other primary use case: home routers. Being able to run opn sense on a a really basic and extremely low power e-core based platform seems great. I doubt that this will overtake X3D that I use on desktop for my specific use cases there, but for home servers based on the quick sync feature sets of the igpus, low idle power, and hopefully much lower load power, this is exciting for my router/server based use cases. I suppose for many, they're just going to look to the high end and see X amount of cores and compare it to AMD's Cvache, full AVX 512 based cores and make that comparison, but in my opinion for my more niche use cases Intel is better. I see this as skin to the celeron offerings during the sandy bridge era. Other others in that era, I overclocked my 2500k to 5.3 GHZ, and while it's impressive to look back on, that was quite power hungry to get to that clock speeds. In comparison can remember buying a G1610 for $40 (CPU alone) and using that as a file server for over a decade. While I doubt we will see pricing quite to that level again, even having a capable core3 or core5 that sips power is exciting.
Tuarceata@reddit
What's going on with that six-core Ultra 9? Seems not-so-ultra.
SkillYourself@reddit
You guys are still going on about hurr hurr fake cores when Arctic Wolf will have higher IPC than Zen5?
ResponsibleJudge3172@reddit
No one knows what ultra 9,7,5, etc will be. Its not even in their books yet
IGetHypedEasily@reddit
These are still what was through up under Gelsinger leadership I assume? They seem to be doing well. It would have been nice if he could have taken credit for these recent good releases.
_hlvnhlv@reddit
I just want more PCIe lanes, having only 2 NVMes sucks hard.
I would rather have some kind of "sata 4", honestly.
Noble00_@reddit
So some thoughts on the SKUs.
Seems like they really are thinking of a new name segment for the dual tiles since Ultra 9 tops out at 28 cores.
I have no idea about the pricing but on a performance standpoint, it seems like Zen 6 Olympic Ridge 12+12+2 (26/50)* may beat out the NVL-S Ultra 9 8+16+4 (28/28). I say this simply because:
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/intel-core-ultra-7-270k-plus/28.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1ji3e2p/amd_ryzen_9_9950x3d_meta_review_14_launch_reviews/
Zen 5 Granite Ridge 8+8 (16/32) already trades blows with ARL 8+16 (24/24) on workloads outside of gaming w/ \~33% less cores. So top Olympic Ridge will be somewhere between Ultra 9 and... Ultra Omega^(idk) 9 (though, closer to the former). Again we don't know pricing, only commenting on projected perf, so can't say how at a value competes with each other.
That said, apart from the 'top' SKUs, I feel a similar trend to what we see right now with ARL-S vs Granite Ridge may hold and that is with the lower SKUs.
Ultra 5 (Plus) is going from 6+12 (18/18) to 6+12+4 (22/22) and Ultra 7 (Plus) from 8+16 (24/24) to 8+12+4 (24/24). And while that may not seem like a large bump, I bet their non-K SKUs are going to be priced competitively for core/dollar.
Unless AMD is confident, what I assume would be their similar in segment Ryzen 5 vs Ultra 5 would be going from 46% slower (6core 9600X vs 18core 250K Plus) to at around 34% slower (8 core 10600X vs 22core Ultra 5 NVL) if we use 250K vs 9700X as reference in something like a future CB26 HUB review. And even if the 10600X turns out to be 10 cores, I still feel like it would generally be slower.
https://www.techspot.com/review/3106-intel-core-ultra-5-250k-plus/#Cinebench_2026_Multi
Dual tile Nova Lake will be very interesting. Trying to be an HEDT product yet not with the lanes it has and 2ch. That said, it's more or less going for topping the charts which is what they want considering the zeitgeist of current Intel CPUs. The Hardware Unboxes, Gamers Nexuses, and Linustechtips of the reviewer world titles writes itself, 'Intel back on top' etc and what Intel needs with X3Ds selling like hotcakes
*Olympic Ridge LP-core rumored at best so in any case 24/48
RumbleversePlayer@reddit
Does that mean the dual dies variant will not have competition from amd?
kingwhocares@reddit
Didn't leaks say Core 3 was supposed to be 8 cores!
ConsistencyWelder@reddit
Yeah it looks like it'll be a dual core, with 4 low power cores attached.
no_f-s_given@reddit
probably 4 cores on the CPU die and 4 LP cores
ConsistencyWelder@reddit
Too bad that for Intel "multigen CPU support" means two.
Geddagod@reddit
The article claims:
So there's hope for more than just 2. Ofc I'm guessing when Intel officially launches it, they will be more clear.
No, you would not want to do that.
ConsistencyWelder@reddit
Sure, but Intel have made this claim before, that they want to support more than two CPU's. They've just never done it. I'd love to be proven wrong this time though.
I was assuming that 8+8 P-cores means they're using some sort of link between two CCD's, like AMD does with Infinity Fabric. And that there's a latency penalty for crossing the CCD's so you effectively only want to use 8 cores for gaming, to not induce a performance penalty.
If I'm wrong about this, then ignore me. But if that is the case, we'll see Intel still being limited to 8 cores (per CCD) for gaming while AMD is moving to 12 cores (per CCD) with Zen 6, right?
Muzik2Go@reddit
As an HEDT owner up to the 10980xe, I am excited for the 42 and 48 core NVL chips. speeds that 'cause I needs that.
nonaveris@reddit
4th generation Xeon Scalable ES/QS (if you’re spendy and have luck on eBay, the Xeon Max is an excellent option) is where it’s at for HEDT.
Framed-Photo@reddit
Really hoping for some good competition here, because AMD is definitely showing some shades of 2010's intel lately lol.
railagent69@reddit
Yep, they are pouring more and more resources into the AI side of business but Jensen still gets to each Lisa’s lunch.
Noble00_@reddit
So some thoughts on the SKUs.
Seems like they really are thinking of a new name segment for the dual tiles since Ultra 9 tops out at 28 cores.
I have no idea about the pricing but on a performance standpoint, it seems like Zen 6 12+12+2 may beat out the Ultra 9 8+16+4. I say this because:
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/intel-core-ultra-7-270k-plus/28.html
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