Reminder: Most emoto posters here are literally children, don't waste your energy arguing with them
Posted by caprisunkraftfoods@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 178 comments
It's easy to forget especially if you're 30+, but you share the same internet that teenagers do and that person arguing that a 60 mph Surron is legal class 3 ebike is probably 15 year olds. They're not engaged in a serious conversation to advance alternative modes of transport, they're testing the arguments they'll have with their mom about why it's okay for them to get one for their birthday.
Obviously we need to push back and hold our case, and of course there are adults with self-serving beliefs, but the more you look out for the more you'll notice it.
tomcatx2@reddit
Checks out.
I love it when they bring it to the shop with dad or mom and I ask how old they are. “Almost 13”!
It’s state law that you must be 16 to ride an ebike. Where’s your helmet? You got your child a helmet too, right?
The parents are pretty shocked that their kid didn’t tell them about minimum age and helmet requirements.
aero_sock@reddit
i have a bigger grudge with parents who only care about a helmet on their kid for legal reasons rather than safety reasons
thishasntbeeneasy@reddit
Worse yet is that I generally see kids with a helmet on their head, but it is nearly always unclipped. That thing is just going to go flying off when they crash, but I guess they can at least tell their parents that they wore a helmet.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
In my area, helmets aren't required, and teens get on dirtbikes to ride on the roads with helmets anyways, meanwhile it's the Harley dudes with no helmets.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
I mean, legally, where I am a Surron would be considered an ORV. They could legally ride a Surron at any age under supervision, 14 and up undupervised, and they need a license only if they are going to operate it across a roadway… much less restrictive legally speaking than the blanket minimum age of 14 to operate any E-bike at all..
Full-Part2427@reddit
Yes an orv like a 450 dirt bike or my utility quad.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
You have something against 125 dirt bikes? Or electric dirt bikes? How about a 250 racing quad?
Full-Part2427@reddit
I do when they are on mixed use trails with 12 year old operators.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
Fair enough. I’d say you shouldn’t be taking your 450 dirt bike or utility quad there either… now, when you see all these kids in your day to day life doing This, are they riding actual electric dirt bikes? Or are they riding perfectly legal e-bikes that cosmetically look similar to a dirt bike?
Full-Part2427@reddit
Wtf are you talking about? I don't want 40+ mph machines on mixed use trails that's all.
BoringBob84@reddit
When large numbers of people start riding them recklessly on sidewalks and non-motorized paths, then they will be a problem too.
caprisunkraftfoods@reddit (OP)
Yeah an "off road vehicle" means it's not street legal, it has to stay off the roads. No one's buying a Surron to do donuts in their garden.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
Sure they are. Or to ride the hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of miles of off-road trails cross-crossing North America. And yes, a certain percentage of people ride them on the roads occasionally (true for all manner of off-road vehicles), mostly to more conveniently get to a nearby trail head or to link up to other trails… and a small portion who just use them like a road vehicle…
caprisunkraftfoods@reddit (OP)
Yup that's absolutely true. 14 year olds across North America are buying surrons so they can ride on cross country trails that are safely tackled at 50+ mph, and taking care to transport the bikes to and from these trails using truckbeds and trailers so as to avoid any breach of local traffic laws. This is a very real thing that's definitely happening, and wouldn't otherwise be possible with street legal Ebikes.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
I mean… that’s why I had dirt bikes, trikes, quads and snowmobiles since I was a kid. There’s also racing events and even freestyle events youth can participate in… Just because a handful of hooligans exist in your neighbourhood, I’d doesn’t mean that’s what most of them are doing…
DeadHeadDaddio@reddit
Dude you're wasting your breath. These people have no idea what its like to live in a place that you can't literally smell your neighbors at any hour of the day. They cannot comprehend anything other than "Surron bad". Surrons are $5,000. Most of these kids in cities are flat out not driving them. They are driving gt73's, tuttios, super 73's, razors, and other amazom ebikes that fall in the sub $1500 price range. Hell most of them have hub motors.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
Yeah… I’m willing to bet half these people are the type I could show my .22 to in its wooden stock, they’d cal it a hunting rifle or a gopher gun… then if I took it back, undo a couple screws an stick some black 3d printed plastic with a pistol grip before taking it out to show them again, they’ll yell ‘nobody needs an assault rifle!’ Even though it is literally the exact same firearm…
Eclipsan@reddit
And I am pretty shocked the parents didn't do their own research.
xzer@reddit
That's my thought, I mean retail is there to help guide you. It's good they are going to a retail location and learning but to be shocked about the info seems odd
hurgahdurbah@reddit
I think the age law is pretty dumb. 16 yrs old to ride a (legal) electric bike is a pretty high restriction. Kids should be able to ride these things to their friends house or to school or to the store or just having fun outside because being outside and active on a bike is way better than being inside. Helmet laws are important though and I'm glad its the law you need a helmet.
tomcatx2@reddit
The vehicles you are talking about are out of class and not bikes. They are Not legal or product category /safety compliant for street use at any age. Yr all good on private property tho. Make sure you have resources to put out a lithium fire on site. there is an entire industry and ecosystem for ORVs, with communities and culture that embrace it. Those communities are quite resistant to e-motos in their Off road spaces. Why is that?
Why are bike shops and the ill equipped (insurance, tools, resources, training, cultural fit) bike industry being tasked with demands to sell and maintain these unregulated and dangerous vehicles?
hurgahdurbah@reddit
Im talking about how age restrictions on class 1, 2, and 3 ebikes are pretty dumb.
About e motos in dirtbike spaces: A lot of dirtbike riders are older people who thing e motos are gay childrens toys. They arent gay but they do tend to be childrens toys like the surron light bee and talaria. Bigger bikes like the ultra bee and stark varg are still hated but thats just because old heads on gas bikes hate electric things. I myself have had multiple dirtbikes and I don't see a problem with electric bikes besides having bad range.
Bike shops arent required to service e motos, and the ones that do usually specialize in them. Its like a dirtbike. Dirtbikes arent street legal but they are essentially totally unregulated and have no requirments to ride one.
Bobby_Strong556@reddit
It's funny when people shout at kids to touch grass but call the cops on them as soon as they're outside.
tomcatx2@reddit
Yeah this is a real thing. How many times were the cops chasing us on BMX and skateboards from the 1970s to 1990s? Now, there are city skate parks and public pump tracks. Despite that, the bikes and boards we used were bikes, not electric motor powered.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
We absolutely used gas powered bicycles and even mini-bikes and dirt bikes…
tomcatx2@reddit
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
First of, the only ‘oversight’ we had was a taste of the belt if we ever got brought home by a cop or had to be picked up from a hospital… avoid that and we could literally do whatever we wanted until the streetlights came on.
Second, what is an ‘e-moto’ to you? Is the cosmetic appearance enough to send you off ranting and raving, matter how legal it is in however many places?
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
Yes but that guy didn't, and he thinks he's better than you for it. Apparently he doesn't care about legality, just the concept of purity of not needing a motor to do the work.
tomcatx2@reddit
The fuck you talking about?
Bobby_Strong556@reddit
No, they've just had gas motors since the 50s
Taiyoryu@reddit
Children can ride an analog bike like generations before them. Age restrictions don’t matter on private land, only on public throughways. If parents want to start teaching their children how to ride motorized vehicles on their own property or someone else’s property with permission, and absorb all the liability that goes with it, by all means. If they’re in public then follow the laws. Don’t agree with them, then work to change the laws.
The_Asian-Dude@reddit
Only 16 and above for class 3*
tomcatx2@reddit
Every state in the US has different laws an regulations re ebike usage. It’s a mess.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
Maybe one day when someone comes up with a set of regulations that actually make sense and aren’t overly restrictive, we can work on reciprocity?
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
Yet a 10 year old can fly down the off-road trails on a 250 cc quad…
tomcatx2@reddit
Yep. Don’t need no license for that at any age. Private land too.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
Absolutely not. You can ride them in all sorts of public lands and trails where I am without a license. Many other places as well.
Full-Part2427@reddit
What kind of pos parent doesn't require helmets for their child in 2026? It's not 1996 anymore.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
The imaginary parents people like to rage about.
I know some truly exist, but around where I am, the kids on gasoline-fueled dirtbikes on the roads with no plates all wear helmets.
arky_who@reddit
Is there a different sub for proper pedelecs, like this sub seems to be mostly people who want emotos and legally not an emoto. No shade on that, but it's just not what i'm interested in.
No_Leading_5257@reddit
I wish. There's been a few that never really took off because no one could agree on what a 'real' ebike is
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
I bet, since my first ebike was one that would probably start a damn war on a place like that. Looks at first glance like a normal bicycle with a battery stuck behind the seatpost, 15mph limited, with a throttle, and the throttle signal stays on after holding for 5 seconds until you brake.
No_Leading_5257@reddit
Huh. That's a new one for me but I kind of dig it
Dook23@reddit
Possibly: https://www.reddit.com/r/ebike/new/
Astr0Scot@reddit
This is the sub for pedelecs and always has been the sub for pedelecs. Only fairly recently have emoto dirtbike users attempted to take it over to some degree. It's even worse if you're European as we don't have this emoto dirtbike culture.
If anything the emoto posts on here should be removed and reposted on r/emoto.
You'll notice that there are zero pedelec ebike posts on r/emoto.
I don't have a problem with emotos if they're used in the same way combustion engine motorbikes are but posting on here about emotos is the same as going on r/bicycling and posting about combustion engine motorbikes. Which of course, no one would do.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
It continues to amaze me how many people don't read the sidebar and then act like everyone else has a problem...
Astr0Scot@reddit
No worries, I left this sub hours ago.
There's places online to discuss ebikes that are specifically focused on pedelecs.
Good luck with getting emotos banned in the US. It seems like with the attitudes of some of the folks on here you have what it takes to achieve that.
I just hope you don't take American pedelecs down with you.
digitalboom@reddit
Take over 🙄… god this is one of the most overly dramatic communities I’ve been in over my ten plus years on reddit.
Astr0Scot@reddit
This sub has been plastered with emoto posts for ages now.
It's not even slightly dramatic to state that fact.
Perhaps if you've only just got into ebikes you'd not have noticed the change.
digitalboom@reddit
I’ve got bikes older than the average user on Reddit, I’ve seen this same song and dance of exclusionary behavior from the hydraulic brakes, clip on shoes and pedal, then the first motorized bikes, to then the first electric ones. It’s almost like every new leap in tech creates people who want to just keep excluding things so they can hold on to whatever perceived status they have. Hence my saying this is stupid, spending time arguing it is stupid, at the end of the day the guy on an emoto gets run over just like you on your pedal bikes and neither of you have the protection of a car. Pick your battles, this is not it.. not even close.
Less_Ambition3971@reddit
r/quityourbullshit
digitalboom@reddit
Pathetic af..
Less_Ambition3971@reddit
Sounds like you feel called out, huh?
digitalboom@reddit
Sorry try better bait… I disclose I have bikes older than most users here, why would I feel called out? 😂 the hilarious people that use this sub…wow. This is what you deduced from all those words. Btw, a purple crayon doesn’t take like grape…
lee1026@reddit
Actual emotos gets pretty complicated and costly in a hurry. Most (all?) state DMVs won't let you register a Surron as a motocycle either. You need a bunch of things like a proper VIN, ABS brakes, and probably more rules that I am forgetting about.
Things like Zero motorcycles gets into car prices in a hurry, and things like lower end (gasoline) motorcycles look a lot better, to the point where I don't think I have ever seen a legit electric motorcycle that the DMV would actually get you register as a motorcycle in the real world before. Yes, they exist on webpages, but I have never, ever, seen anyone actually buy one.
tomcatx2@reddit
Yeah there are a couple subs for e-motos. They don’t like each other there too. They just like to argue on the internet.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
I’ve literally never heard anyone try and make the argument that a Surron is a legal class 3 e-bike… I have, however, heard a lot of elitist gate-keeping e-bike purist try to argue that a perfectly legal class 3 e-bike is an ‘e-moto’ because it happens to cosmetically look like a dirt bike Or a moped scooter…
FigNinja@reddit
Class 3 bikes aren't supposed to have throttles, only Class 2. I've never seen one of those moped or dirt-bike style bikes that didn't have a throttle. Class 2 limits assisted speed to 20 MPH. Many also exceed 750W even if they claim to be Class 2, when nothing in the 3-Class system is supposed to. In my state, if you can unlock it to some sort of "off-road mode" that allows it to be over 750W and/or Class 2 speed, it's also not street legal. I live in California, along with 1/8 the US population, so that applies to a lot of people, and I wouldn't be surprised if more states follow suit in closing that loophole.
I'm not against higher power, throttle-driven ebikes, though. I want to see our moped laws updated to give those bikes a path to legality for licensed riders. I also think that 750W limit is dumb and we should focus more on speed. I am a bit of a killjoy, though, in that I want to see more mandated safety features like certified batteries and chargers. We've already mandated that in California, and I wouldn't be surprised if other states follow along with that, too.
John-AtWork@reddit
This is such a stupid thing though. Peddling at 28 mph doesn't make it any safer than using a throttle -- if anything it makes the rider less engaged with what's happening on the road. Class 2 and class 3 should have the same speed limit. Yes, I know one is legal one isn't, but laws don't always make sense.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
It's also a disability access thing, as not everyone can pedal, and nobody can always pedal (pedal too much suddenly at once and you'll get shin splints, as I found out the hard way once; it's a bad idea to keep pedaling when you get shin splints).
BoringBob84@reddit
I can.
Do you know of an ebike that can run for days in a row? My battery is depleted after about 30 miles.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
You cannot pedal if you suddenly get one of a variety of leg issues that at some point in your life you will have, there you cannot always pedal.
The pedaling was days in a row, as in each day I exclusively pedaled, not days straight.
BoringBob84@reddit
If I cannot pedal, then I will ride my motorcycle. I can do that because it is registered, it is street legal, and I have a motorcycle license. And I don't ride it on sidewalks and non-motorized paths because I care about the safety of other people.
John-AtWork@reddit
You're 100% correct.
BoringBob84@reddit
It would only seem stupid to me if my goal was to ride a motorcycle in the bike lanes. If my goal was to ride a bicycle with some assistance on hills, then 15.5 or 20 MPH would be more than enough speed, and a throttle would be nice to get me started, but unnecessary after I have reached walking speed.
lee1026@reddit
Class 3s are allowed to have throttles under NY law.
They are not allowed under California law, but state law, as it turns out, varies.
FigNinja@reddit
I should clarify that if the state is following the federal class system, there is no throttle on Class 3. They can change it if they want, of course. If you're in Kentucky, it just to have pedals and presto it's a bicycle.
Dook23@reddit
It’s very common that an ebike will be class 2 and 3 capable though. It can be class 3 and have a throttle but the throttle has to cut off at 20 mph. It’s not that a class 3 can’t have one period.
BoringBob84@reddit
Maybe it is common, but it is not a legal ebike in most states.
The law is clear that a bike can only be one class and Class 3 cannot have a throttle.
BoringBob84@reddit
To clarify, this does not come from the federal government. It is the model legislation from People for Bikes that most states adopt into law.
https://www.peopleforbikes.org/electric-bikes/policies-and-laws
stormdelta@reddit
There is no federal class system, the three class rules are state-level, and even though more than half of US states have adopted them, there are some variations in the specifics.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
States do not "change" a "federal class system", it is simply that the commonly-lobbied-for class system many states adopted is also adopted by federal land management agencies. You will not find the 3-class system in the actual US federal legal code.
FigNinja@reddit
Yes. I should've tightened up the language a bit. I think most people likely understood what I meant.
lee1026@reddit
There ain't no such thing as the federal class system. The Feds just care about the continuous motor rating (750w) with no opinions on top speed or throttles.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
Well, only about 30% of the states even follow a 3 class definition, of which many of them will probably have variations on what is or isn’t allowed within each class… So what is a legal class 3 in one state may beg illegal in another state, an 70% of the country doesn’t care about your three classes at all, so unless you live in California, your Amazon dirt bike looking thing with pedals, a throttle and a top speed of 2O mph is perfectly legal…
FigNinja@reddit
I read 36 states here: https://www.velotricbike.com/blogs/story-landing/electric-bike-laws-by-state
The states that don't total up to about 63M, less than 20% of the population. Many of them have laws that are MORE restrictive. I italicized below the four states that are less restrictive. That's 14.6M, around 4.3% of the US population. I'm no expert, so maybe the list below is in error. I'm happy to revise based on corrected information.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
I don't know about other states on this list, but Montana is actually less restrictive, because Montana doesn't require licensing, registration, or insurance on mopeds, which encompasses electric mopeds.
That is to say that in Montana, you can add a throttle to your Class 3, and swap out the motor for 1000W (as long as it's 1491W or less peak), and continue to ride around all the same.
stormdelta@reddit
More than half of US states have adopted the three class system at this point, not 30%. You're right that are some minor variations though.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
Well, I based that number on a page from a little under 2 years ago… but my point stands. Then you have at least 10 more variables sets of laws north in Canada… but my point stands. Just because it looks like a dirt bike with pedals and has a throttle, doesn’t mean it’s illegal. In fact, it’s probably perfectly legal a people are judging it on cosmetic appearance alone.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
In my state, we just left mopeds usable without license/registration/insurance, and let its definition cover ebikes too. This means no pointless distinguishment on throttles, and a much simpler system for police to enforce (they don't need to evaluate whether something is gas or electric, throttle or no throttle, and slightly different speed limitation (mopeds in most states are up to 30mph, not 28mph), only complication is there's still a motor limit of 2bhp (1491W) peak, which police are never gonna check).
We still have problems, and get kids on dirtbikes (mostly gas-fueled, not electric) in the street with little the police can do, but I would sure hope this system makes ground instead of the 3-class system that seems basically designed to kneecap enforcement by confusion.
tomcatx2@reddit
Class 3 cannot have a throttle or have a motor with more than 750 watts. Every one of those 72 volt emotos have a throttle with more wattage than 750.
Can’t have it both ways.
There is some advocacy to update classifications but it’s looking like class 3 will go away entirely, while class 1 and 2 will be modified or combined.
Dook23@reddit
Incorrect. A class 3 model can have a throttle, it just has to cut off at 20 mph.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
It can absolutely have a throttle in the vast majority of the US. 70% of the country doesn’t even care about your three classes, an of the 30% that so, thy allow throttles on class3 e-bikes.
stormdelta@reddit
This.
I have a way bigger problem with assholes intentionally trying to conflate legal class 2 and 3 e-bikes with actual dirtbikes and e-motos just because they have a childish fixation on treating e-bikes as purely recreation/fitness devices instead of real transportation.
Bobby_Strong556@reddit
Using surrons to decry ebikes in a pretty big L take.
Ebike classes are a pretty big L take too. They're all pretty arbitrary and were made by people that know nothing about electric motors or bikes. It wouldn't have been hard to just classify them under mopeds and move on with our lives, but some dumb politician feels the need to regulate our lives on a hardware level, fuck that.
BoringBob84@reddit
The model legislation came from People for Bikes. They have been advocating for bicycles in the USA for a quarter of a century. They know what they are talking about.
https://www.peopleforbikes.org/mission
digitalboom@reddit
Why even argue, seriously? This soapbox yellingnonsense this sub has is a waste of time. People here spend more time arguing what is and what isn’t that little ever gets discussed about how to improve the experience for us all. We’ve got the government looking at us as new revenue streams and yall want to continue to argue what is and what isn’t an ebike? Guess what.. both you and the person you are arguing with will have the cost, limits, and regulation but continue arguing that’s really gonna help us all out.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
OP wants everyone in this sub who rides something that could be called a 'moped' out, and made the strawman about Surrons as a dogwhistle to get others to bash Class 2 and Class 3 and anything even slightly beyond Class 3.
BoringBob84@reddit
How do you know what someone else truly feels and thinks? Do you believe that you are God?
digitalboom@reddit
💯% and it’s 100% unnecessary. If they put the same energy into showing up at town hall and fighting for micro-mobility rights we all wouldn’t be dealing with potential over regulation and they don’t tend to understand who is behind pushing for these regulations..car and gas companies who see this as a threat, the same way they did with ev cars and fires for a good five years.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
Many race tracks are banning EVs under the excuse of it being too hard to insure against the fire risk, right as EVs are coming out that don't have fire risks...
digitalboom@reddit
Those deeply invested in keeping gas powered as the option for you aren’t going to concede market share easily. It’s absolutely ridiculous to see all the infighting in the electric community when the reality is we aren’t the issue.
BoringBob84@reddit
It isn't so easy when the careless rider on that "bike" causes the government to restrict micro-mobility for everyone.
xzer@reddit
Until the rules of the subreddit change to specify excluding emotos it's a waste of time just on that point. If someone wants to show off their surron it's allowed, if it's diacussion related to safety or IRL rules around them then it's kinda disengeious anyways.
qwertyqwerty4567@reddit
Haven't seen many people argue about surrons since those don't pretend to be bicycles by putting on a pair of pedals
It's usually things like Engwie/Magician/Wired or a scrambled letter brand that appeared this month on Amazon for the first time that people make arguments for being ebikes (they are not)
STIHL_Resolve5198@reddit
My saseikei ebike e7 is not the same as any class 1 ebike, good luck going in the wild with a class 1, mine is a class 3, hits 35 mph on 6 seconds and I know it will last for several seasons, rode 2 miles 4 days in a row and still hasn't dropped from max charge
Famous_Earth_8460@reddit
Class 3 e-bikes are limited to 28mph. If it goes 35 its not class 3.
LuckyNumber-Bot@reddit
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
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STIHL_Resolve5198@reddit
Also rode nearly 150 miles on odo
caprisunkraftfoods@reddit (OP)
I have absolutely seen this argument made but really I was picking the most extreme universal example to demonstrate my point. It's just a stand in for "obviously illegal where you live".
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
So you were constructing a strawman on purpose.
STIHL_Resolve5198@reddit
Construed and constructed are only two letters apart
STIHL_Resolve5198@reddit
I got my "ct" scan from the Amazon man, I got an mri from some random guy dressed like a clown with his upside down frown and a trench coat, everyone's got choices, I just make odd noises in disgruntled fashion
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
See, the thing is, most of what people complain about isn’t ‘obviously illegal’ it’s more ‘cosmetically different Than what I consider a bicycle’…
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
That's I suspect the real crux of the matter, from utter nonsense he said elsewhere in the thread. The real concern is the public will no longer distinguish the asthetics of a bicycle as their own special thing, it's nothing to do with practical micromobility, and the Surron kids are just hated because if he went right out of the gate with something like "Class 2 ebikes are EMOTOS, anything with a throttle or motorcycle-style seat is an EMOTO", he'd get downvoted, but almost everyone will happily hate on Surron kids and the more extreme will take it as the dogwhistle it is to hate on anything that's not a traditional-looking Class 1.
Razrgrrl@reddit
In my area, there are restrictions limiting those under 16 to class 1 only. I honestly think it’s a lot safer for everyone.
hurgahdurbah@reddit
Who is arguing a surron is a legal e bike?? The riders know its illegal.
caprisunkraftfoods@reddit (OP)
"it's got pedals"
nokia_its_toyota@reddit
Speaking as someone who absolutely would have begged for a Surron at 13, and currently rides a motorcycle, I think it’s pretty obvious everyone just wants to basically have a motorcycle without all the regulations and rules around riding a motorcycle.
BoringBob84@reddit
Yep. No driver's license. No registration. No insurance. No training. No accountability. Ride on sidewalks, non-motorized paths, and on roads. All you have to do is pretend that your electric motorcycle is an "ebike." What could go wrong?
FigNinja@reddit
I think some of the kids believe that's true. They're immature enough to believe that they have some legal gotcha because their friend said so. Their source: trustmebro.edu.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
I think for every kid that genuinely believes pedals make an emoto legal, there are at least nine others that know it's just a bluff.
hurgahdurbah@reddit
What kind of surron has pedals? They arent trying to fool anyone. They dont care its illegal, thats why they run from the cops when they get lit up.
caprisunkraftfoods@reddit (OP)
I know, I agree with you, that these arguments are so flimsy is the point I'm making. They just think they're cool and are grasping for excuses.
hurgahdurbah@reddit
Some of the bikes are pretty cool ngl but I think its pretty dumb that they ride illegally. Off road riding is way more fun than street riding
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
It's a strawman. Basically any post made here that's text-only about "emotos" is someone trying to bait. OP is generalizing in a way that I haven't seen and makes no sense.
tomcatx2@reddit
OP is providing specifics and yall are ignoring the reality, legality, and regulations to make yourself feel better.
Those Bad faith counter arguments from a space of immature naivety. In other words, grow up. Learn the law and understand the legal consequences so the rest of us who use e-bikes aren’t smeared.
Dook23@reddit
One of his specifics was that people were arguing that a Surron is a class 3 ebike. No one says that.
neverfakemaplesyrup@reddit
The majority of ebike talk lumps Surron with e-bikes. Whether it's here, in news, on YouTube, or ESPECIALLY on social media.
Just search "e-bikes" on tiktok or insta lol. It's almost all e-mopeds.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
Surrons are not e-mopeds, they are e-dirtbikes.
caprisunkraftfoods@reddit (OP)
I get the sense you're trying to make a carve out for Super 73 style bikes, I'm not sure why. The reason we distinguish between mopeds and motorbikes is they have significantly different capabilities in terms of engine power and speed.
No such distinction exists with modern electric motors. A 750w and a 3000w hub motor are going to provide largely the same speed and power no matter what style of frame you put them on so from a public no policy standpoint there's no meaningful distinction.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
Carveout? As far as I can tell from a quick search, Super 73's ebikes are just class 2s with dumb motorcycle-style seats. What does that have to do with how we distinguish different classes of bike capabilities?
STIHL_Resolve5198@reddit
Caveats?
caprisunkraftfoods@reddit (OP)
I sincerely don't believe you read all the words in my comment before replying.
tomcatx2@reddit
Sur-ron is not a bike or an ebike. It is out of class, and does not pass/adhere to any cpsc or dot regulation. It’s an e-moto. The semantics and specifics of wording matter here.
And when you buy direct from TikTok/china, you become an importer of record. Most homeowners insurance will not cover losses from an unregistered home based business that elected to deny that coverage.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
That does not conflict with it being an e-dirtbike.
tomcatx2@reddit
Again you are ignoring law and fact and reality.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
Do you think dirtbikes are pedal bikes?
neverfakemaplesyrup@reddit
Ah, they advertise them as "moped style", the last I heard they had legally distinguished them as mopeds in places that cracked down on them, and that's the whole reason they slap a single gear and pedal on these bikes.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
To be clear, "moped style" to my understanding means a long fixed seat and pedals. Surrons as-sold lack pedals so aren't "moped style", but someone could add aftermarket pedals, which can trick police.
Legal distinguishment is a mess due to ebikes and mopeds using separate carveouts, and not universal. In my state, the moped definition is powertrain-agnostic (up to 20mph, "electrically-assisted bicycle"; 21-30mph and up to 1491W peak, "moped").
The_Asian-Dude@reddit
Don’t blame the stupid 15 year olds on us, we have nothing to do with them. I’m 15 and are fully aware of laws
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
OP is using stereotypes to bait out people to come with him and say that ebikes shouldn't have throttles or look at all like mopeds. He's just an asshole willing to throw any group of people under the bus to get karma.
BoringBob84@reddit
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
yeffyonson@reddit
Yall argue about this EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. Sometimes multiples times a day. Does yelling into the void never get tired for yall?
BoringBob84@reddit
Does complaining about other people complaining make you feel better?
gladfelter@reddit
How do you tell the folks who lost their driver's license from the teens on this sub? They both want a motorcycle in disguise.
Modern_Leper93@reddit
I play a fun game when I see cyclists in town called "DUI or hobbyist?"
Fetz-@reddit
What about serious commuter? Does this category not exist?
I use my bike as my, main mode of transportation. I don't see it as a hobby and I do not do it as a sport. I also have never had a DUI.
BoringBob84@reddit
Many people if North America believe that bicycles are toys for recreation and are not practical vehicles for transportation.
stormdelta@reddit
Considering that even the most reckless idiot on any kind of ebike or even e-moped is less of a threat to others than a mildly distracted driver, I'd rather they use those than drive without a license.
Funny-Collection5699@reddit
That is a really good point honestly.
tomcatx2@reddit
Back in the day it was easy: an old schwinn varsity with upturned hannelbars and a beer cozy tied to the stem. Now they are scraping up 600 bux to get an Amazon e-thing.
potatosouperman@reddit
My town is flooded with teens recklessly riding “e-bikes” that are really electric dirt bikes. Riding carelessly in big groups of like 7-8 all over the place doing wheelies near cars and stuff. It’s dumb.
Now like half the population is super anti-ebike and it’s really disappointing as an adult who just likes to ride a regular ebike very safely. But most people don’t even know there are different kinds of e-bikes and lump them all together.
BoringBob84@reddit
Yep, this is the problem. Kids don't understand that their actions harm other people. Adults who do this just don't care.
razz_one_@reddit
I think the adults who refuse to understand the differences among the e-bike classes and e-motos are also at fault too. Awareness would definitely help the "stigma" against E-Bikes. I live in Orange County, and I see a ton of gas mini bikes, e-motos, and e-mopeds going like 30+ mph on the SART. I've seen a couple of people on entire scooters in the bike lane and the SART. The scooters I've seen resemble the Vespas, NOT the regular L-shaped scooters.
I think awareness + education of what's allowed can help a lot. But enforcement as well, I've almost got run over by kids on Surrons and gas mini bikes.
I was sort of part of the problem by having a Qiolor Tiger RE 35AH MT-20, but I gave it away. I got the AVENTON SOLTERA 2.5 and modded it heavily to my own customized liking. It's still a Class 2 just with a customized aesthetic.
nokia_its_toyota@reddit
Are there adults who can’t distinguish between those two? Everyone on Reddit acts like there are but in real life this whole thing seems like a non issue and adults don’t have problems with normal e-bikes
stormdelta@reddit
There are tons of people on this very subreddit that intentionally try to conflate the two, from opposing directions even.
One group wants to justify their use of e-mopeds, the other are cycling elitists that want class 2/3 banned and are happy to muddy the waters to get that.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
Minor thing, but I must point out that in my state, "moped" encompasses Class 3, and does not require a license.
If there's nothing wrong with going 28mph without a license on an electric bike, there should also be nothing with the same on a gas bike, whether or not you pressed a button instead of pedaled.
I suspect the 3-class system is actually designed to cause the conflation you speak of. It's very much the sort of sabotage I would put into the law if I wanted police unsure of when to act (they can't see wattage or throttles, only current speed and style), and the average person to then argue about these things instead of organize for better infrastructure.
stormdelta@reddit
An equivalent gas bike is significantly heavier, usually larger, and much louder.
Higher weight and size impact momentum and handling much more, and while not technically safety-related, noise pollution outside of roads will understandably bring opposition.
I'm glad you at least recognize policy should be about safety. Way too many people on this sub and elsewhere who claim to be pro-micromobility are bizarrely hostile to the idea that someone might use a bicycle for something other than fitness/recreation.
I think it's more likely just the awkward product of compromise. The organization (PeopleForBikes) that came up with the three class system is based out of Boulder CO, and by all accounts I've seen is authentically pro-ebike and cycling in general.
razz_one_@reddit
At least where I'm at, I have met several adults who believe Surrons are "actually e-bikes", and there is a store in Anaheim called "E-BIKES PLUG" and they mostly promote e-motos. You can search it up if you don't believe me. Yeah some adults understand the classes and differences but some of them legit believe Surrons are "the" e-bikes. I'm 23 btw.
lee1026@reddit
A quick scan through their e-bikes sections suggest that their e-bikes are legally e-bikes, even if they are styled to look different.
The law as it is written doesn't care about how something is styled.
razz_one_@reddit
Here is one "ebike" from the website for E-BIKES PLUG located in Anaheim. Class 3 e-bikes have no throttle and can only go 28 mph.
potatosouperman@reddit
In my experience, the vast majority of adults do not distinguish between any e-bikes at all because they believe they are just “e-bikes.” They are unaware there are different classes etc.
demon_twink_gockie@reddit
They're stupid. It's an easy distinction. Like the difference between a golf cart and a EV car.
razz_one_@reddit
I agree, it is an easy distinction. One example I can think of is one time, a co-worker saw my Aventon Soltera 2.5 and told me that I'm probably struggling to get to work. I told him it's an E-Bike, and he looked confused, he said something like "why don't you get a surron, like a real E-Bike?"
I had to explain to him that it's electric, I showed him the throttle on the Soltera 2.5 and showed him the lights and how it runs. He basically said I wasted $1.2k on an ebike "that doesn't go fast enough". I explained the e-bike classes to him and he just told me "well just get a motorcycle then or a car, why don't you get a car instead?". I just ignored him after that.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
I mean, to be fair, teens everywhere ride regular bikes carelessly in big groups of like 7-8, doing wheelies, jumping off makeshift ramps and everything else… U myself did it, and back in the last millennium when I was a youth, we didn’t even have helmet laws… In fact, you were much more likely to be injured if you wore a helmet (and not because you wiped out)…
potatosouperman@reddit
I understand that and I did some of the same things as a teenager on regular bikes, but not at 30+ mph.
I think the real difference is that when teens are dumb on regular bicycles, nobody goes and tries to make bicycles illegal. But that is exactly how many people respond to e-bikes. They try to pass legislation to greatly restrict them…and that can negatively impact all the adults and other responsible e-bike users.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
New Jersey just passed a law to require licensing for all ebikes, and they did so purely because of teens on class 1/2 ebikes getting run over by cars, nothing to do with anyone going 30+mph, just that rather than spend billions to make safer streets, they can spend thousands to argue, the next time it happens, that the 17yo girls run over by their 17yo stalker in his SUV going 70 were "risking their lives to begin with by riding without a license".
I believe they will eventually require licensing to ride regular bicycles too, soon, as police will be unable to enforce the license requirements on ebikes that look like regular bicycles. I suspect the only reason they haven't tried so far is that we're in a boiled-frog situation, where if they expanded what requires a license too much all at once, there would be a huge backlash, but making it step by step (the went after Class 3 ebikes in 2019) allows them to get only a little backlash at a time.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
You’ve never tied bumper shining? You can get way over 30 mph with the assistance of a passing pickup truck 😂
potatosouperman@reddit
Never tried that but when I was probably 13 years old I did go face first on my stomach laying on top of a skateboard down a long steep hill as if I was doing the luge at the Winter Olympics. Teenagers just often aren’t very smart when it comes to these kinds of things.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
With a good enough hill, I bet you could have gotten thy up over 30 mph as well…
Smokinglordtoot@reddit
Kids have been riding dirt bikes for years but now ebikes are going to kill them all and anyone standing within 6 feet? It's a moral panic. Well it is in my country anyway. It's a challenge for the lawmakers but unfortunately they couldn't have fucked it up harder if they tried.
TopRepulsive4766@reddit
I really haven't seen that argument on this particular subreddit. But then I haven't really been looking for that type of post. And of course teenagers will argue about anything to see if they can't persuade someone to get what they want. I had six boys and they could be very 'creative' at times.
As to teens riding Sur Rons (and other similar ebikes): Our state (Wyoming) is very lax concerning ebikes, four-wheelers, mopeds, gokarts, and similar vehicles. I see teens riding ebikes with no pedals around town quite frequently and no one pays any attention. And, oddly (and thankfully), I haven't heard of any negative incidents with this behaviour.
And naturally, anyone who answers a post by an arguing teen, needs to keep informing them as to the facts. Teenagers have what I call 'selective hearing' and it often takes ten times or so for information to actually sink in.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
OP explicitly told me in this thread he made a strawman, and separately indicated his real thing he's against is any ebike that looks like a moped.
PreferenceAny3920@reddit
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
It would be nice if Reddit had filters for the age of the poster. I'm sure kids would appreciate that too so they didn't have to hear opinions of adults trying to instill reason.
Gizmorum@reddit
Such words of wisdom. The amount of posts about emotos and ebikes for less than 1000 has made me feel im in the wrong community.
Is there another ebike subreddit that had a no emoto or no ebikes below a certain monetary range?
Ok_Plenty4953@reddit
This is how I usually answer them: "Again, not an ebike"
david-saint-hubbins@reddit
I mean, yeah, don't waste your energy arguing with anybody online, particularly not on Reddit, and particularly not on any younger-skewing subreddits like this one.
Get_Fuckin_Dabbed_On@reddit
i dont care what you ride or where you ride, as long as you keep a respectable speed for each scenario.
SexiestPanda@reddit
And any bikes > cars
Ohm_Slaw_@reddit
I think it's called "motivated reasoning." One conclusion results in their getting the emoto of their dreams and being the envy of their middle school. The other conclusion means they're walking.
FigNinja@reddit
Yes. I think that's also how we get a lot of people arguing that their $600 drop-shipped bike is just as good as the more expensive bikes on the market.
this_shit@reddit
This post is awful. Quit creating imagined enemies to fight. Just talk to people.
freddbare@reddit
Same with politics is absolutely hilarious!! But nah Broseph I'm a real military style veteran!!! I know my politicking real good, and you are an old dummy!!
SinoSoul@reddit
Try 50+ , and reading these middle schoolers /tweens wanting to wheelie their tuttio/ridstar/super73/insert-whatever-amzn-junk ….
Just don’t.
Laserdollarz@reddit
The last time I argued with someone on reddit, I went to their profile where they talked about working at McDonald's and sleeping with their mom.
Ohm_Slaw_@reddit
Yeh, I slept with that guy's Mom too.