After clashing with Israel, Sánchez casts Spain as moral model for EU
Posted by ChillAhriman@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 64 comments
Posted by ChillAhriman@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 64 comments
Kitchen_Letter8775@reddit
Spain’s stance has been truly outstanding on all almost every international issue in the last few years. I’m curious to know what has caused this, especially in comparison to its neighbors on all sides.
_Spare_15_@reddit
Yep, except for giving away Western Sahara to Moroccan expansionism
ChillAhriman@reddit (OP)
Correct. Ironically, it was this same government that did that, under US pressure, while Biden was president there, and Sánchez righftully got plenty of flak here for it. Morocco lobbied the US to put pressure on us after we offered healthcare to a sick leader of the Polisario Front.
https://cadenaser.com/nacional/2023/02/01/como-paso-el-gobierno-de-acoger-al-lider-del-frente-polisario-a-dar-la-espalda-a-los-saharauis-en-favor-de-marruecos-cadena-ser/
https://mundoobrero.es/2022/03/23/sanchez-calco-palabra-por-palabra-la-posicion-de-estados-unidos-en-su-carta-a-mohamed-vi/
https://www.yabiladi.com/articles/details/125982/sahara-pour-russie-l-espagne-subi.html
combrade@reddit
As someone who visited Morroco and the West Sahara . It’s a totally bullshit issue and I’ve met many Saharawi living in Morroco . They’re indistinguishable from the average Maghrebi in Morroco . Morocco has poured 147 billion in the past four years into the West Bank. The Moroccan Sahara regions, Laâyoune-Sakia El Hamra and Dakhla-Oued Ed-Dahab have higher HDI than the average Morrocan regions.
Don’t fall for their traps my friend . This is the same bullshit propaganda they use against Spain because of the Catalonia issue and because of Catalonia Spain can’t criticize Israel . Yes there are separatists issues but Spain is not currently an apartheid state towards Catalan people.
2stepsfromglory@reddit
You met Moroccan settlers and Sepoys*
combrade@reddit
I genuinely think you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a Morrocan and Sahrawi . It’s not an issue that’s even debated among anti Monarchists factions like العدل والإحسان (Justice and Charity) Party . Maybe Europeans should focus on returning Ceuta and Melilla instead.
I think you’re projecting . Moroccans are no more settlers than the ancient Romans were settlers in Gaul of modern day France .
Regardless no one in the Arab world except for Algerians think Morrocans are settlers in the Sahara. The entire Arab League supports Morocco claim to the Sahara . Morroco controls 80% of the Sahara and there is 20% by the Polisario around less than 200,000 people . The various EU countries have as well recognized Morroco’s claim .
2stepsfromglory@reddit
That's such a silly answer full of strawmans that the only thing it leads to is to expose that you're just a Moroccan nationalist pretending to be from somewhere else.
_Spare_15_@reddit
Of course they are indistinguishable from the mainland Moroccan population, Morocco flooded the land with their citizens to make any attempt at a referendum for sovereignty impossible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_March?wprov=sfla1
ChillAhriman@reddit (OP)
There are lots of reasons. Let me start with the conjunctural ones.
The ruling party (PSOE) has been in a weak position in the last few years, with a wobbly parliamentary coalition and issues with corruption. The Spanish population generally likes international positions that could be summed up as "let's chill out with everyone and oppose war" (I'll comment on the nuances later), and the PSOE has found itself in a position where representing those ideas gives them an immense advantage in the polls for relatively few cons. In comparison, the two largest opposition parties (PP and Vox) have generally been siding with Trump and Israel, and the PP's leader ONLY made a milquetoast comment against Trump after he threatened to "end the Iranian civilization". This should make it clear that, if the last elections had gone in a different direction, Spanish foreign policy would have been quite unremarkable for current EU's standards.
But why is taking these positions so profitable for the PSOE? For starters, Spanish society is still marked by the 40 years of Francoist dictatorship, so any picture that has to do with the army has different connotations in our culture than, say, France. The army has to do its best to show its "we're here to save people in case there's a climate catastrophe and look pretty the rest of the year" face while the "we're the state's instrument to exert international power projection" face has to be shown with modesty, because otherwise it gets millions of people to remember ugly family stories from 50 years ago. This has the positive side that we're quick to react negatively when someone starts a war, but the negative that we're also reticent to involve ourselves even in favor of the good side (note how, even though supporting Ukraine is a very popular position, sending them a lot of weapons becomes uncomfortable, as you can see by the fact that Spanish support of Ukraine is modest in comparison of that of other European countries).
Then you have the fact that the US as a country has never been uncontroversially popular in any political tradition here. When we were first pressured to join NATO 40 years ago, PSOE's slogan was "OTAN, de entrada no" (roughly "NATO, no way we're joining"), because the left-leaning side of Spanish society slightly leaned towards the Soviet interpretation of the Cold War. And yet, the PSOE itself decided to change its tune later on, in order to avoid issues with the US and promote integration within the EU. So, what position did Alianza Popular (AP, today's PP, the right-wing heirs of the dictatorship) take on that issue...? Its leader told his followers to vote whatever they felt like. Spanish economic elites wanted to join the EU, and wanted to get along with the USA, but among the right-leaning portion of Spanish society, which leant towards the Francoist interpretation of geopolitics (and not the Western one), joining NATO was seeing as giving up sovereignity to the yankees. Regardless, the country was told that joining NATO was important, that we had to be a modern, democratic, European country, and it was accepted, but through a lot of controversy. And this still plays a role today. Even though right-wing media and parties are all clearly in favor of the US no matter what they do, right-wing voters like seeing Sánchez stand up to Trump for their own historical-nationalist reasons, while for left-wing voters it's a very obvious win from the get-go.
Then we jump to 2001-2003. The PP had taken the government from the PSOE after the latter had gone through huge cases of corruption (you should notice that this is common in modern Spanish history, both for PSOE and PP, and other smaller parties too), and they had become incredibly popular thanks to the development bubble they had promoted (it wouldn't crash until 2007). But then, the PP decided, for no benefit to Spain of any kind, that we had to join Bush in his invasion of Irak. Spain didn't really actually do much in the invasion of Irak, and we mostly took a support role for the US, but it was still incredibly controversial, triggering some of the largest demonstrations in modern Spanish history. When we got closer to the next elections, the PP had taken an important hit, but they were still projected to win with a safe margin. Then we suffered the 11M terrorist attack, three days before the elections. And rather than getting the US reaction of "we gotta get back at those damn Muslims", a lot of people seemed to have thought "yeah, no wonder, we did get into a war, after all", and the PP lost when no one expected it. From that point onwards, it's been a given that Spanish society favors non-interventionist by a wide margin.
Then you have other factors that aren't so sociologically or historically important, but still play a role. Israel doesn't lobby Spain so hard as it does UK and Germany. Spain has considerably less exports/imports with the US than other EU countries. We're a fairly important trading partner with Algeria, and international relations are fairly important when Algeria negotiates trade. These aspects may be somewhat minor when you look at the numbers, but they still push the tips of the balance in the same direction.
PierreFeuilleSage@reddit
Cheers on the effort, very insightful. Do you have similar insight on why your gov enacts an actual leftist platform economically? In France when we elect socialists they don't do pro-working class policies like yours, they're completely co-opted by capital to push neoliberal and repressive policies and go back on everything they said they'd do and instead do bog standard Macron/Sarkozy policies, and nothing changes, eg Hollande's presidency. That's why we have to go leftward and now the main leftist platform is LFI with Mélenchon. So how is your gov's platform not similarly corrupted by the ultra rich basically? We need to learn from you.
2stepsfromglory@reddit
OP already told you but the same happens in Spain. PSOE is anything but a Socialist party (I'd say they are liberal in economic matters, and tepid social-democrats in social maters), they abandoned Socialism in 1974 during the Suresnes Congress and all the Socialist members moved to the now defunct PASOC, PSOE simply kept the name for brand maintenance purposes and to retain centre-left voters. Also, the only reason the current government is doing left-wing policies is due to the fact that PSOE (who lost 21 seats in the 2023 elections) rules in coalition with another seven parties, four of which (SUMAR, ERC, EH Bildu, and BNG) are the ones pushing for pro-working class policies. If PSOE had enough seats to rule without needing them things would be very different.
ChillAhriman@reddit (OP)
Sánchez does get a lot of criticism from the left because he DOESN'T actually do that, or at least not to the degree that should be possible.
His housing policy is mostly aesthetical. The central government picks up 10 state-owned companies that have housing units, puts them all together in a new body, and we've got a new headline: "The government creates a new public company with 50.000 homes", making it look like we've got 50.000 new units of public housing, even though it's just make up for the numbers. One of the PSOE's ministers that had to be kicked out due to his links with corruption cases literally said: "it's true that housing is a constitutional right... But it's also a market good" as a response about why their government hadn't tried to fight for affordability.
The first minimum wage increase that we got in the last decade was brought by the PP, but not even because they wanted it, but as an attempt to stop the rise of Podemos (a party to the left of the PSOE). During the last two electoral cycles, the PSOE has required the support of plenty of parties to remain in power, and their minimum wage increases came from their pacts from Podemos at first and Sumar later (Podemos and Sumar were originally the same organization, kinda, but that's a different story).
Then you've got the PSOE's support for La Liga's internet antics. From time to time, Spain cuts access to Cloudflare for 12 hours straight (yes, THAT Cloudflare), because Javier Tebas (businessman representing the interests of companies with the rights to the broadcasting of football matches) argued in the courts that their services were being used to conduct internet piracy, thus screwing thousands of legitimate businesses and hundreds of thousands of legitimate consumers. Some left-wing minority parties (Sumar, ERC, BNG) tried to put an end to this situation, but PSOE, PP and Vox have sided with Tebas, because they still prioritize the interests of large domestic capital over those of the rest of society.
Don't get it wrong. PSOE is a liberal party, not a leftist one. It's just that their interests are less tightly linked with US capital specifically, as it could be the case with UK's Labour, to put an example, and they have had to compete with parties to their left that threatened to replace it in the last decade, and their voter base still has clear left-leaning values. It's a very different incentives structure.
TheUnicornRevolution@reddit
Thank you so much.
These have been super helpful.
CutieDeathSquad@reddit
Great breakdown thanks for the helpful knowledge
croquetas_y_jamon@reddit
Interesting comment. And it’s also interesting to compare Spain situation with France’s, as we sure value our sovereignty and don’t want to agree with the US as a default posture (we join OTAN quite late, under Sarkozy, and it was not really popular, we resisted and criticized war in Irak, as the current one in Iran and Lebanon), but on the other hand we feel our army is important and should be stronger (even more after the latest events).
Our countries development as regard to the defense politics is really different, while I feel we stand for the same values.
reflexive-polytope@reddit
Out of curiosity, to what extent did the loss of the Spanish-American War of 1898 shape Spain's attitude toward American imperialism?
FudgeAtron@reddit
I don't get this. Did Francoist Spain got to war with anyone other than Morocco? What event are they remembering? Like Portugal with the colonial wars I'd get, but Spain only had the Rif War AFAIK.
Bashin-kun@reddit
I think he meant Franco regime used the military against its own populace? As an oppression tool? So any attempt by the military to act like a military has to be toned down because acting like a military means being tools of oppression?
ChillAhriman@reddit (OP)
☝️☝️☝️ Correct. After the civil war, hundreds of thousands of Republicans were taken to concentration camps, and 10 years later, tens of thousands were still being used as forced labor for various public works. A large part of the police was part of the army, and you could be physically punished if you gathered in a "large" group (more than three people) in the streets or if you publicly spoke the wrong language (Catalan, Euskera, Galician, depending on the time period). Organizing in a non-corporatist union could easily earn you torture at the very least. Even by 1981, a section of the guardia civil (a police force) and the army failed in their attempt to coup the new democratic regime. Plenty of families have at least one story related to any of these events, thus shaping the general perception of the army.
FudgeAtron@reddit
But isn't that the opposite of what you just said? How can using the Army on your own citizens be the same as "exerting international power projection"? If anything it seems like Franco did the opposite, he used the Army for exerting internal power projection, rather than external.
It seems more like you just don't trust your own security forces, than something specifically learned from Franco. It's not like he got you into quagmire Foreign wars that got tens of thousands of Spaniards killed for no reason, like Portugal. So I don't really see the connection, maybe you can make it a bit clearer.
ChillAhriman@reddit (OP)
Maybe I didn't express it clearly enough. The bad opinion that the Francoist period left in Spain about the army means that people are very wary when the army performs its traditional functions (fighting wars, occupying territory, imposing control over an area by the state), so it tries to look like a body that's there to support the civilian population under extreme circumstances instead, even though in practice it's very similar to, say, Italy's or Germany's army (its main function is indeed defense, acts under NATO command, its support functions are secondary, etc.). Does this make more sense?
FudgeAtron@reddit
Yeah the other guys explained it well as well.
I realize you also never got liberated from Fascism by an army like Italy, France, etc... so you don't have any positive experiences with the Spanish military.
Tbh it feels a bit sad that Franco has tainted it. Spain should be one of the main military anchors for the EU (along with France, Italy, Poland, and Greece).
Do you think Spanish people would be willing to deploy the army to defend the Baltics or Cyprus, for the EU?
ChillAhriman@reddit (OP)
We recently had a cruiser intercept Iranian missiles that had targeted Cyprus and Turkey, if I remember correctly. Still, I think you meant the case of a large conflict where our involvement was clearer, such as a Russian invasion of Eastern Europe or a war between Turkey and Cyprus/Greece.
I think most people would agree, at face value, with the idea: "Well, our allies have been attacked, so we should defend them", but it's such a far away scenario that any prediction beyond that from my part would be unfounded. What position would take the mass media? How would people react to the first news of Spanish military personnel dying? And after two months? What would be the reactions of opposition parties? How would people behave in social media? We have no recent point of reference in Spain to compare it to, so I don't think you should trust anyone who comes up with a clear answer to that.
Socraman@reddit
No, he just got Spain into a war with itself (read: the powerful against the powerless) using the army as a tool of oppression. So armies are seen as tools of oppression wherever they're used.
FudgeAtron@reddit
Ok that makes more sense, the only experience Spaniards have with the military is it oppressing them. They don't have the military liberation from Fascism that most of Western Europe had, and I guess Franco wasn't a foreign imposition like the Communists were in Eastern Europe.
Socraman@reddit
Well Franco wouldn't have had so much success without the support of Mussolini and Hitler, and without the tacit approval of American and British businessmen, but the former were eventually destroyed and the latter only had a secondary role in his success. But in essence it was a very domestic form of oppression. Nobility, landowners, big business and the Catholic Church all got behind Franco and the rebel cause, to keep oppressing their "lesser" compatriots whom they saw as scum.
Levitz@reddit
We don't want to impose on others what we suffered here.
Socraman@reddit
Exactly this.
BAKREPITO@reddit
Incredible effort post.
Fern-ando@reddit
Sánchez needs constant distractions. It became public knowledge that the Pedro Sánchez family owned brothels where kids were pimped. Well, that and the multiple corruption cases of his government and family, like his right-hand man Ábalos stealing Covid funds to pay prostitutes.
Platypus__Gems@reddit
Because they are the socialist party. Reality has a left-wing bias.
Turnip-for-the-books@reddit
What’s exciting is Israel will hit back at Spain (they likely already have previously) but now they are threatening and not even trying hide it. Once this happens European and other nations that have been captured by the settler state (I’m looking at you Australia) will have to decide which side to take.
photoinduced@reddit
I also think it helps that Spaniards are very politically aware. That and the catalonia issue has driven the government to do better or have to fight a resurgence
ThisIsMyFloor@reddit
Not as scared it seems. Less corrupt. Less looking the other way for that sweet war mongering genocide supporting money. The only politicians in the EU that have any conscience. Most likely the few not in the redacted files; not as vulnerable to blackmail.
Well it probably won't last long, the spanish government might be blessed by a "regime change operation" or be blown up by some random "Iranian group" that just spawned in to existence outside Israels embassy with 10 Qurans in their pockets and written clearly that they are definitely Iranian. The new leader would then swear fealty to Israel and every other European country will look the other way.
Sea-Vacation9401@reddit
The guy just takes the anti western stance on any issue, if that makes you a moral model then the world has gone insane. No wonder the world's in chaos with clowns like him at the helm.
ChillAhriman@reddit (OP)
Is this anti-West?
Spain unveils $1.2 billion in military aid for Ukraine - The Kyiv Independent
Sea-Vacation9401@reddit
If you ignore everything else, he seems like the most pro-western guy you'll ever see.
Watch his appeasement to china, distancing from NATO and the USA, and granting mass amnesty to half a million illegal migrants.
He's a socialist that comes from a wealthy background and worked in the UN bureaucratic machine, and it shows in his worldview, people like him tend to be disconnected from reality, they live in a world of ideals.
ChillAhriman@reddit (OP)
Oh weaw, how horrible... (Based based based based based based based based)
Sea-Vacation9401@reddit
You're ideologically captured to work against your own interests, which is why you now have a leader who is anti-west. I know.
CoffeeWorldly9915@reddit
Try "ideologically (and/or morally) repulsed by what's turned out to be 'Western' interests". Just because one stands to gain something ("own interests") from something, doesn't mean one is supposed to just do that, given the actions themselves might be extremely immoral (as is the case currently). The leader is apparently plainly opportunistic, and pandering to a population majority that is horrified by what the West is doing.
iNuminex@reddit
God I wish my government would distance themselves from the US.
Guaire1@reddit
Appeasement in this case meaning try to look up for economic partners not lead by a schizophrenic manchild that change ideas every week. All of europe is doing that too. Spain isnt unique herr.
And i dont see how it is antiwest for spain to grant citizenship to people who speak spanish sincr birth (most inmigrants in Spain are latinos
Platypus__Gems@reddit
So what you mean to say is, instead of being American bitch, they seek to have a balanced position by not pushing China, the other superpower, away.
It's deeply ironic how much right-wingers suck off America. By becoming dependant on one other country, you are weakening your nation.
Chemical-Drawer852@reddit
Any sensible mind would distance itself from the US
Sea-Vacation9401@reddit
If you ignore everything else, he's the most pro-western guy you'll ever see.
Watch his courting of china, or trying to grant legal status to about half a million undocumented, culturally enriching, doctors and engineers.
Whenever you hear about him it's another ideological take which he announces with religious confidence.
Levitz@reddit
What about the strong pro-EU positions? Is that anti-western?
BufferUnderpants@reddit
Tough shit, it's on Israel for not realizing that Spain mattered and not bringing over Spanish politicians to Epstein Island
Sea-Vacation9401@reddit
Every country is doing the same thing, and worse. It's naive to pretend china, spain, the gulf states, brazil, etc, don't have their own fixer and their own shady networks to handle unofficial and illegal deals under the table. Ebstein was one fixer for one network.
HockeyHocki@reddit
Yeah dead easy to say no to foreign wars Mr. Sanchez
Embezzlement, malfeasance, bribery, the list goes on... when his wife, brother, and senior party members are all facing trial trial for corruption you have admire the neck on him to wax on about their morals😂
"Do as we say not as we do"
juanlg1@reddit
Yes because petty corruption cases are morally comparable to genocide and wars of aggression
Fern-ando@reddit
Is profiting from child prostitution good enough? Members of the socialist party have accussed him of that too.
juanlg1@reddit
Jajajajaja di que sí crack
HockeyHocki@reddit
Did anyone say that, or even imply it?
juanlg1@reddit
You implied he has no standing to talk about morals because of petty corruption cases surrounding his administration (none where he is directly involved by the way), when the matter at hand for which he is considered a “moral model” (not his own words by the way) is his opposition to genocide and wars of aggression
HockeyHocki@reddit
His family and his party are charged with doing something deeply immoral, I pointed out the hypocrisy of platforming themselves as a 'moral model' it definately doesnt imply what they did is the moral equivalent of genocide🤦♂️
juanlg1@reddit
And yet they didn’t platform themselves as anything, “moral model” are the words used by the publication linked in this post and not by him or his administration. I fail to see the relevance of his party’s petty corruption scandals (something common to every single major party in Spain) to his stance against Israel and USA, which is what this article is about
Fern-ando@reddit
Don't forget his party member accussing him of profiting from his family brothels, where inmigrant kids from Colombia and Morocco were pimped.
NOOBFUNK@reddit
A few decades from now, when the hysteria wears off, just like how everyone went from celebrating the "victory" in Iraq to being horrified at the 1 million dead Iraqis, Spain will be celebrated across the world for standing on the right side of history and refusing to be a part of the Holocaust of today.
balamb_fish@reddit
Most people in the west aren't horrified by 1 million dead Iraqis.
TheUnicornRevolution@reddit
We clearly run in different crowds.
Catalani@reddit
Some are still lusting for a few thousand more. Their chauvinism doesn’t register brutality and straight up murder as carnage, but as statescraft.
I’m growing very wary that the only way to humble “western exceptionalism” once and for all will be through the battlefield.
discographyA@reddit
EU would be wise to follow his lead and set the tone for the rest of the world to follow in isolating a nuclear armed pariah state. The cost is nothing as Israel is not a society that offers anything of real economic or cultural worth to the world.
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ChillAhriman@reddit (OP)
Should be flaired "Europe" instead, as the EU to a larger degree and Spain to a lesser one are the main topics of the article, but okay. This subreddit's automod is really annoying.