Is the wage gap decreasing between unskilled and skilled roles?
Posted by wanderingunicorn1@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 520 comments
I'm looking for progression from my current role and feel shocked that a lot of jobs requiring extensive skills and experience are offering salaries from 28k-35k as if that's a good salary. When people can earn that and more with overtime in a factory or supermarlet where is the incentive to upskill and take o high pressure roles?!
Basic minimum wage and a 40 hour week is over 25k. Not saying that's wrong, but its frustrating employers srent then also paying higher wages for skilled roles where people have years of quals and experience.
Is anyone else finding this frustrating? I realise tech and medical etc is paid far more.
AE_Phoenix@reddit
Yes. Many are leaving school early to go into trades because frankly if you start at 16, the extra years working for the same pay mean you're usually better off by 30 than if you went into higher education.
txe4@reddit
Yes.
We have achieved a smaller wage gap than the USSR [ https://x.com/maxtempers/status/2042496270581776563?s=61 ]
It’s driven by the minimum wage increase at the bottom and at the top by the de facto £100k maximum wage. That is, the 62% rate of tax and NIC, plus student loans and loss of free childcare, which give many professionals very attenuated incentives to earn more than £100k.
bills6693@reddit
Wow, that is actually just a very interesting stat in itself…
Elster-@reddit
This is celebrated by many and why the statistics show less people in poverty, as it’s relative
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
Some serious changes should have happened to the tax bands considering the level of inflation seen over the past 5 years. Imagine how many (relatively) high earners work a day less or decline job offers due to the rates beyond 100k
txe4@reddit
Yup and the cliff-edge for VAT at £85k similarly.
Certainly given that the top 20% of earners are responsible for essentially all of the income tax revenue, they are a resource that the state could manage more effectively.
Unfortunately, the jaws of “envy based politics” and “spending running far faster than revenues” have now closed around the government’s freedom to manoeuvre. It only gets more dumb from here. Strap in and enjoy the Third World Governance theme park ride!
SHalls17@reddit
This is very frustrating, starting salary at the factory I’m in is now £35k with the 3 pattern shift allowance and minimum wage. These guys have no real responsibilities and aren’t held accountable for any fuck ups.
A management role with considerably more stress and work always waiting on your desk even if your on holiday is paying maybe £50-55k…
Yes that seems a decent salary but for the level of cost of living, tax, student loan etc the factory guys on shift are only really taking home around £500-700 less per month for no responsibilities…down tools and fuck off attitiude.
mumwifealcoholic@reddit
Your attitude towards the people who are the foundation of our economy is terrible, I bet you wouldn’t make it ten minutes.
Elster-@reddit
This the attitude that has meant minimum wage has increased to be closer to the median wage and will continue to do so.
Ultimately in the long run it makes everyone poorer
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
What attitude? Should roles with more responsibility not demand higher salaries?
mraksmeet@reddit
Same in hospitality. Junior staff such as bar tenders, servers, KP's and chefs get paid the minimum hourly wage. Yet managers, head chefs etc are on 35k. Minimum wage salaries with 0 overtime. It's not worth wanting to progress these days because you can make more washing dishes for 50hours a week than running a kitchen. Madness.
EquivalentSnap@reddit
My friend was a chef and manager for 10 years and worked more overtime and less breaks for the money he got. Not with 30k when you work 10k a year in overtime
mraksmeet@reddit
There's been weeks recently that I've worked out I get around £7ph from my pay. And I'm running the joint. It's a grim gig.
EquivalentSnap@reddit
Omg I’m sorry that’s why no one wants to be a chef anymore they’re desperate but the pay is crap
Slyspy006@reddit
One issue with hospitality is that most people on the minimum wage are not doing 50 hours a week and have massive wage insecurity.
2ndnin@reddit
It would be nice to see salary removed as a concept below certain seniority levels and compensation and all jobs actually paid per actual hour worked. That or the salary expressed as a multiple of the minimum wage
MJS29@reddit
Used to work at a place with a factory, and don’t get me wrong that work isn’t for me… it’s hard, conditions aren’t great and bloody boring.
But, firefighters start at £28k in comparison. Utterly mad.
your-mum-joke@reddit
You could regress and take the easier job if you wanna lose 500 or 700 extra a month lol
Hame_Impala@reddit
A major problem in general with stagnating wages is that the only way to make enough money to have a nominally "good" wage ends up being to go into management, and even then it's not necessarily worth if it's a stressful role.
Becomes more and more difficult just to plug away without having any managerial ambitions, which is obviously needed given not everyone can or should be a boss.
frosting_the_bowl@reddit
Tbf, a student loan is your own fault. You dont need to have been a student to become a manager.
Factory work and the like also has a greater danger to health than managerial roles.
And tbf, 5-700 is actually significant and could be life changing for some people
Ultimately if you want better pay then either ask for it or go elsewhere. These are the only ways to get companies to pay more.
Kremm0@reddit
Please don't try and say 'a student loan is your own fault'. A lot of professional roles nowadays require a degree of some kind, and people are often pushed towards university at 17
Battleborn300@reddit
It is fair to say a student is your own fault, I never wanted to do a degree or any higher education,
I started work as an apprentice, at 16, then while gradually working my way up in the organisation, continued education, I did a HND, followed by a Degree, followed by a Masters, fully funded by work,
Sure while working a stressful busy job I too, but I made the effort and committed, at 34 I have zero student debt, and 18 years experience in engineering. Earning a decent salary.
I guess nobody handed me this on a plate, I had to work very hard for it, I was the first apprentice to go on to do a degree and more at my 1st workplace.
Kids are more nudged than pushed I would say to university, honestly from my experience, the careers person at school didn’t have a clue, and certainly wasn’t pushy, they make half arsed, half baked suggestions. I mean most aren’t exactly the best people for giving careers advice when you consider their own job.
I appreciate at 16 / 18 a lot of people are unsure what to do which is why university is an easier option. But equally they are educated well enough to know they have options.
I signed up to a college course, then spent the entire summer applying for apprenticeships, and going round local businesses, it was actually the college, I was set to start, who gave me some details, of companies who had previously had apprenticeships. And that’s where I got my break, by being persistent, working hard.
A lot of 16 year olds are lazy, and have no ambition/ desire to get into the working world, then end up with shit tonnes of debt.
frosting_the_bowl@reddit
Being a manager in a factory doesn't require a degree.
Slyspy006@reddit
No, but perhaps that isn't what they were aiming for.
Asher-D@reddit
Yeah they shouldn't be. It sucks that people so feel pressured to go. My career requires a degree, but that coupled with it globally paying so low is why the profession struggles to get people and the solution they keep coming up with is, ah, well just automate...some more. and I want murder those machines! They mess up so much.
mumwifealcoholic@reddit
Some of these posters are entitled twats.
statelyhovel@reddit
Only £500-700 less, lol.
Also after comparing £35k and £55k in a tax calculator, the difference in monthly take home is more than £1000.
Leading-Ad-1697@reddit
Sorry are you applying that working a 3 shift pattern is not stressful
TheRebelPercy@reddit
Yes.
We also need to get out of the notion that people earning £50k are well off and are part of the problem. This may have been the case in 2017 but inflation has bitten into that so much.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
Yes my Dad still thinks 30k is a great salary!
amlamba@reddit
30k will be minimum wage in a few years, the way things are going
Angel_Omachi@reddit
Going by the minimum wage increase predictions I have to run at work for contract modelling we're about 2 years off that.
Eclectic_Mudokon@reddit
I was on 24k as a senior QA in the games sector. My last job had unsavoury management, but being paid so little after nearly 6 years in that sector led to a stress breakdown, and I've quit and moved back with the folks. Felt like I'd just be squashed all the way to minimum wage when I'm meant to be senior level into a career at that point.
MrTinKan@reddit
I'm assuming that was a part time job, or were you working for Les than minimum wage.
Eclectic_Mudokon@reddit
It was salaried, I can't recall the specific hours, but it worked out to something like 35h range give or take an hour or two. Due to unpaid lunch hour, so a 40h weekly like a regular office style job but paid less due to that.
With that in memory, I want to say it wasn't minimum wage, but like a few scraps over it. Considering I was handling clients by myself, mentoring junior members of staff and having to take part in hiring processes, it felt like far too little in compensation relative to work load and responsibilities. Add a long commute each way five days a week onto that, yeah I burned out, I've no shame in saying that despite how rude others can be about it.
MrTinKan@reddit
Jobs oldi are like 30k a year
mumwifealcoholic@reddit
QA is not somewhere you build a career. You start there, get a foot in, then move on.
Hubby started there, on minimum wage, as a school leaver with no qualifications. Worked his way up over a few years.
I’d suggest building some resilience, the world of work is not a kindergarten.
Eclectic_Mudokon@reddit
Needless presumptions about my character aside, if it wasn't a career why do people work up to senior, lead, management etc? Why do some people say in QA? Because it is a career, that's why.
ydktbh@reddit
tbh I'm still in that mindset myself, felt like I made it at 35k
No_Intern5991@reddit
I'm 36 and £35k is still a great salary in the my head because it was when I was growing up. It's very hard to rewire your brain. Inflation is a bitch.
Battleborn300@reddit
I find this an odd mentality… I don’t wish to be rude, but I’m 34, I have never thought 35k was a good salary. When I was 16, earning 8,200, that was considered slightly above average for an apprentice.
There is a difference though between good and what you feel your limit may be, based on my job and roles within, and the company where I worked, I just felt it would take forever to be on 35k, so I guess it was fair to say it was desirable at a point, but I never considered it good, You couldn’t buy a 3 bed house with a salary of 35k anywhere near where I live, so it has never been good.
And I have always based things off that.
I have worked exceptionally hard, and had some luck along the way, and now earn an objectively very good salary, compared to many, that said, it’s still extremely difficult to buy a house even on a relatively high salary.
nathderbyshire@reddit
No one ever really talked about wages when I was younger, and I grew up with one side of the family pretty well off on my dad's side, and my mum's side was piss poor and that's the side I was on so any amount of money was a lot of money. I had no examples of what a good wage was because I never knew what anyone earned
The first time I earned over 1K in a month felt like I'd won life, even though I was struggling it still felt like a lot of money. Poverty often warps your mindset as well.
To this day I've never earned 35K a year so I would still consider it good just because I've never earned that amount before
No_Intern5991@reddit
My dad was the Managing Director of a company on £26,000 and we were brought up in a four bed detached house on a brand new estate that they paid £72,000 for in 1992. My mum looked after me and my siblings and didn’t need to work. One foreign holiday a year, two cars etc.
That’s why £30,000+ is still a reference for a decent standard of living in my mind, even though I know it’s wrong. It would obviously be impossible to live like that now on that sort of salary.
If you’re basing it from when you were 16, then we’re well into the early 2000’s and a lot of the inflation had already happened by that point, especially in house prices. I’m basing it from the early 90s, so maybe that’s where the difference comes from?
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
If you're aware that your reference point is extremely outdated then why not just use a new figure as a reference point? You're obviously aware that's not a great salary anymore so what's the need for a post about it
No_Intern5991@reddit
Because I was replying to:
I've not just randomly posted about it.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
But a lot of the country esp boomer gen think 30-40k is a great salary so have no empathy for people asking for wage rises or taking action hence part of the reason peopel arent fighting for higher salaries.
Battleborn300@reddit
It’s more I’m basing it off, the cost of things in the present, as in when I was 16, 35k seemed like a lot but I knew the reality wasn’t enough.
At 34, I’m glad I earn a lot more than that, because I would genuinely be struggling if I was on that salary.
So I guess it’s more a wildly different perspective, you were comparing to a very different time, I’m comparing to today. At 16, I was comparing to 2008,
And tbh before then I honestly couldn’t tell you how much my parents earned / bought their house for, my stayed home until I was about 15, then went to work, but has since retired early. My parents have never had senior jobs, or significant money of any kind.
I don’t think it would be possible to bring up a kid/kids without both parents working today.
Unlikely-Jicama4176@reddit
I remember my Grandad being surprised about my starting salary £12k in 2001. His was 1 pound and 6 shillings!
Cultural_Tank_6947@reddit
Yeah, unfortunately it's now probably closer to £75k where on average you can start feeling better. And yes I'm also aware of the nuance that depending on circumstances that £100k can also not lead to the luxurious lifestyle that one would imagine.
Buddy-Matt@reddit
I doubt 100k is luxury for anyone.
Financial security, decent house, for sure. But still a way off actual luxury
Extreme-Sink-3105@reddit
This very much depends on what class you come from. I'm from a relatively poor background, and 100k would absolutely be a luxury salary for me.
Fortunately, I'm good at managing money, so I've been able to purchase a house on my £26k salary after saving up £23k as a deposit, but I don't think the middle class realise how much money that is for working class people, and how much we could do with a salary that high. Then again, we're used to going without and living frugally, and I'm aware that a higher salary usually means their lifestyle gets inflated, too.
Luxury for the middle-class, I'm guessing, is owning a yacht, plane, mansion, I don't know. Luxury for the working class is owning a home they're proud of, 2 vacations abroad each year, financial security and retiring comfortably.
Blazured@reddit
You're right. You regularly see middle class folks complaining that their huge salaries aren't enough too.
Alarmed-Cheetah-1221@reddit
Oh bore off with this stereotyping bollocks.
You're just good at saving money. It has nothing to do with your class. We're all very impressed.
Extreme-Sink-3105@reddit
I felt it was an important example of someone earning a low salary from a poorer background. Obviously, nothing I've done is impressive to most people here since the majority believe that £38k isn't a very comfortable and great salary, which I disagree with.
I'm aware that what I have isn't a lot compared to the high earners in this thread, but I felt it was relevant for the discussion, and I think it's important that lower-class individuals share their input too. I also like the perspective of higher earners, since the mega-rich turn on each other regardless.
I'll take the saving money compliment though. I'm proud of that, thank you. Just doing what I can to achieve something for myself.
Cultural_Tank_6947@reddit
Cool anecdote mate. It's about as useful as that of those on £150k struggling to get by. Yes it happens, but not representative.
Extreme-Sink-3105@reddit
True, and discussing it is the best way to see others' perspectives, struggles, and to grow. If people were more understanding of both sides of situations like these, I genuinely think it would be better for the entire country.
Alarmed-Cheetah-1221@reddit
You've made that abundantly clear already
Aetane@reddit
> Luxury for the working class is owning a home they're proud of, 2 vacations abroad each year, financial security and retiring comfortably.
Which 100k won't get you in large swathes of the country?
Extreme-Sink-3105@reddit
I mean, £100k as a flat amount wouldn't - £100k as an annual salary maintained over multiple years outside of London definitely would, even following the 50/30/20 rule, investing the 20% into an index fund or ETF.
How do you think people survive in the South of England on a minimum wage of £24k a year? Outside of obviously "not every well", which I'd agree with. We're talking over 3x the minimum wage of the country after taxes and NI.
In most of the country, a £100k salary would absolutely achieve everything I mentioned in my comment if managed correctly. My examples would require somebody to be financially literate, which isn't the case for a lot of working-class people (not always through fault of their own), but if they can achieve buying a house on £24k a year, it's crazy to think they wouldn't be able to achieve what I stated with £100k a year.
I think discussions like this are important because they bring different perspectives. Mine from a working-class background, and I assume yours may be quite different. These issues aren’t black and white, but for generations of my family, even earning 2x the minimum wage would have provided what we consider a luxury lifestyle compared to what many lower working-class people experience.
Aetane@reddit
Yes, £100k maintained outside of where 99.5% of the 100k salaries in the country are...
MJS29@reddit
Depends how you define luxury… financial security and a decent house is definitely luxury to many. Of course it’s going to depend on many factors, I don’t have kids (though we’re expecting) so joint income of £125k+ leaves us with a lot of savings every month at the moment
Hame_Impala@reddit
Depends where you are. If you've paid off your mortgage in my Scottish hometown 100k is absolutely luxury if you can spend it correctly.
But most people in said hometown aren't pulling in 100k obviously.
Cultural_Tank_6947@reddit
Way too nuanced to argue with you.
statelyhovel@reddit
A £50,000 salary would result in my having approx. £14,000 more take home a year. I'm pretty confident I'd be feeling better.
zeusoid@reddit
Feeling better isn’t the point though
Using feelings as our justification is how we end up with such a compressed wage column
statelyhovel@reddit
I was replying to someone who was talking about feelings. Take it up with them.
Cultural_Tank_6947@reddit
And you would still be much worse off than someone earning £50k as recently as 2020.
mumwifealcoholic@reddit
I earn about that, combined household income about 80k….and we live a good life.
London is not representing the UK well. But it keeps sucking workers who think have 24hr kebabs is worth living in someone’s en-suite.
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
Skilled UK professionals have still been fucked by covid inflation, general inflation, and the stagnant UK economy. Skilled UK professionals continue to be fucked over and will continue to be without economic growth.
mumwifealcoholic@reddit
Good luck, enjoy the en-suite.
I’ll enjoy my 40k in my 5bed house,
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
?
Extra-Sound-1714@reddit
The trouble is it is in many areas. The median wage where I live is £30k.
BriefSpray3765@reddit
I’m a carpenter who is self employed.
I decided this time last year to not be self employed and took a job with a kitchen company.
I was now a salary man.
34k they give me before tax, in London. My take home every month was 2.3k.
I left after 8 months and they asked why. I told them you’re paying me pennies.
I went back self employed and earn 1k a week after tax.
Alarmed-Cheetah-1221@reddit
Cool story dude
BriefSpray3765@reddit
Yeah alright dude.
What have you added to this but a try hard cocky comment?
Alarmed-Cheetah-1221@reddit
I've added just as much useful content as you bud 🤣
BriefSpray3765@reddit
Yeh yeh yeh yeeeeeh
Have you read what the post asked?
Dan_85@reddit
Yep, too many people still don't grasp the concept of inflation. The crabs in a bucket mentality still prevails.
£50k is equivalent to £38k pre-pandemic. It really isn't the amazing salary many people think it is - especially if you're a single income household and/or live in the south.
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
Its amazing how few people grasp this. If you are a qualified/skilled professional and haven't seen significant wage growth over the past 5 years then you've been fucked. Just look at how much the min wage has increased.
Combine that with the fact that the UK economy has continued to stagnate and it's all fucked.
Dualyeti@reddit
The issue is it wouldn’t even be better salaries it would just be in line with what it was pre-pandemic lol
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
It would be an improvement in real terms though
happybaby00@reddit
Really?
I thought it would've 38k pre 2007 but wow the pound has really gone down.
Dan_85@reddit
£50k today has the same buying power as £29k did in 2007.
Fat_Man_Mondo@reddit
Absolutely, I earn a little over that and I am far from having a lavish lifestyle. I live in the North too where housing is generally cheaper. Don’t get me wrong I’m not choosing between heating and eating, but I’m not rolling in cash at all.
UberMcWolf@reddit
Generally wages in the UK have been stagnant for decades, while lower paid jobs have been forced to increase pay by national minimum wage rules.
So yes this has effectively meant that there can be little difference between jobs that historically were paid much better than for example retail jobs.
Anti-union laws and weakened unions in the UK, again generally speaking have meant that unions have had little power to advocate for fair pay rises for workers which has contributed to this. It's the result of companies looking to pay as little as possible, and often giving pay cuts in real terms.
Tasty-Explanation503@reddit
Look how strong the railway unions are, and then look at the pay and conditions they have fought for and protected.
Anti union rhetoric is strong in this country, the rich have brainwashed the turkeys into voting for Christmas.
Full-Measurement4927@reddit
Because they have a captive market and are blackmailing an industry that is vital to the countries operation, see how that works out for you working at Boots mate 👍🏻
Technical_Version936@reddit
Exactly this poster is just silly, rail is a captive market
Tasty-Explanation503@reddit
They could have caused hardship and disruption, but if it's anything like the supermarkets, the unions sold the workers out and got into bed with the companies.
Believe me the DfT and previously private companies would have cut staff wherever they could, just look at the recent attempts at ticket office closure.
Full-Measurement4927@reddit
Obviously they would, because offering a cheaper service to everyone is ultimately what actual capitalism does. Not this quasi private bs. Anything the government get involved with they totally fuck it up.
eatingdonuts@reddit
But they didn’t privatise them. They’re all natural monopolies with competition component
MrTinKan@reddit
People didn't want services privatized, some politicians did. Things are worse now.
Full-Measurement4927@reddit
No they aren't at all, most of the companies taken out of state ownership faired much better and offered a faster more reliable service, even the cost of water went down under privatisation and they've done a shockingly bad job, which just highlights just how shit the government are at running operations like an efficient business.
MrTinKan@reddit
Yeah, water in particular is going great isn't it? What's wrong with upu.?
Full-Measurement4927@reddit
I didn't say it's doing great. Read it.
TheresPoetryInPixels@reddit
Supermarkets could replace a lot of their workforce tomorrow.
Don't underestimate how many people are sitting by their phone, right now, waiting for a shift from anywhere because the best they can get is a 0 hour agency contract.
Ill_Tonight_2069@reddit
Blackmailing an industry for better working conditions for its employees?
Full-Measurement4927@reddit
You mean more money for doing less with the exact same conditions.
Ill_Tonight_2069@reddit
No I’m pretty sure I know what I meant to say.
Just because some unionised sectors aren’t being completely shafted by corporate overlords don’t be sore about it. Crabs in a bucket springs to mind.
Full-Measurement4927@reddit
Name one other lol everyone knows the score with the RTM, fully nationalised rail could be the downfall of their bargaining power.
Ill_Tonight_2069@reddit
I don’t think GBR will be their downfall considering the RMT have criticised privatisation and welcomed nationalised rail. Plus the unions have been going for over 100 years. Only time will tell I guess!
Full-Measurement4927@reddit
Fire and rehire incoming bud
Ill_Tonight_2069@reddit
Oh definitely for the management and office staff who generally come under TSSA. Those on the tools should be fine.
Anony_mouse202@reddit
The railway unions are strong purely because of the nature of the industry that they work in, not because the of any particular difference in attitude.
They operate in an industry that is extremely time sensitive, that a large segment of the population is completely dependent on and have little to no alternative to (as they have a government guaranteed monopoly), where “lost” work cannot be made up for (running two trains tomorrow doesn’t make up for the train that was cancelled today), and there is no risk of going out of business (again, as they have a government guaranteed monopoly) - so can just strike ad infinitum and have no need to consider the needs of the service when making demands (as private sector unions do).
Source: ex-railway.
mumwifealcoholic@reddit
Over and over again too….turkeys are stupid.
blancbones@reddit
Also the media cracks down on any group wanting a fair deal, look at how they treat Dr's and nurses.
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
Unions do not solve the underlying issue though, that UK businesses have seen stagnant productivity and are becoming increasingly uncompetitive.
Hame_Impala@reddit
Indeed, there are lots of stingy employers out there who could pay more but choose not to, but the US isn't exactly known for being a union-friendly, left-wing country and a lots of employees out there make far, far more than they would here.
Our economy is in a fairly bad way and a lot of firms just aren't doing that well. If they were doing better then pay would probably be higher.
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
Indeed, I agree. For all those levelling vague accusations at 'capitalism', the US pays skilled workers far better wages.
Hame_Impala@reddit
Aye, an imperfect country in many ways and certainly not one I'd want to live in just now...but eye-opening when you look at how much people can earn there compared to here for similar work.
WhalingSmithers00@reddit
Young workers aren't joining unions as frequently as they once did. Maybe because of the lack of perceived power unions hold but that then decreases the unions power discouraging membership further.
Potentially a bit of a death spiral for unions and the media is largely to blame. They undermine every strike and try to turn the public against their own interests
Souldestroyer_Reborn@reddit
I think one of the reasons for that is how intertwined unions and political parties are. Ie unite, the biggest union, and labour.
As a guy in his 30s in the engineering field, I know this is an issue for some of the folk I work alongside.
ICantBelieveItsNotEC@reddit
Yeah, I find the Soviet larping really off-putting. Calling each other "comrade", talking about "the people" or "the workers", etc. It's so fucking cringe.
I literally just want pay negotiation and protection from unfair dismissal. I don't give a shit about their glorious people's revolution.
Extra-Sound-1714@reddit
What job you do? I was very involved in the union and never heard this. It sounds like you have been hanging round one of the fringe lefty parties, not a union.
Fungled@reddit
Unions are simply only effective in certain kinds of sectors where there is a large ratio of workers to employers. If there’s a much smaller ratio then employees can get a better deal by leaving (or threatening to leave) than by any prolonged union process, which has to be measured all the way from unionisation through (threat of) strike action, to negotiation, to settlement etc
Relentiless@reddit
It will also depend on who the unions focus on tbh. I’m pro union but I watched my union fight hard for nurses (quite rightly) but then got nothing of what the unions said they would focus on for care workers. They were great for helping individuals but they literally never made things better for me as a care worker.
Extra-Sound-1714@reddit
Yeah I had a similar experience. Union fought hard for workers public cared about, back office staff they were not interested. Our salary is too low for the skills required
GiveYouNothing92@reddit
lol they'll come back real quick when people realize how MUCH worse things would be without them as ineffective and frustrating as they are.
Hame_Impala@reddit
Does feel like there's been a slight upturn for unions post-pandemic. But probably does depend on the sector.
LambonaHam@reddit
Part of the issue for Unions is that work is too broad.
If you work in a chain (e.g. McDonalds), or government industry (e.g. Teaching), then it's feasible.
But if you're say one of three Project Managers at a software development company, what Union is there? Do you join a Union with PMs from other companies? Just the three of you?
ICantBelieveItsNotEC@reddit
Yeah, unions only work when you have a large number of people with an identical, well-defined job description and a standardised way to compare people.
"pick up the widget from the conveyor belt and put it in the widget box" can be unionised. "make software" cannot, because everyone in that role has a completely different experience and delivers a completely different value to their employer.
niteninja1@reddit
im considering leaving my union because they only seem to care about payrises for the lowest paid unskilled members of staff
Anony_mouse202@reddit
Part of the problem is that unions have gone a lot further than caring just about pay and working conditions, and are now getting involved in all sorts of politics that is fundamentally outside of their remit, which deters a lot of people.
Unions these days are almost de-facto political parties in themselves, and that reduces their target market.
Extra-Sound-1714@reddit
Honestly that is not true. Unions are way less political than they used to be.
Savagefool2@reddit
Most companies I’ve been too threaten site shut down if a union is formed
Wise-Youth2901@reddit
Unions have never played a strong role in the private sector white collar jobs.
miggleb@reddit
My union agreed to a 2% pay rise when minimum wage went up.
Company gave us 3 as 2 would have put us below minimum wage.
I stopped paying
trikster_s@reddit
I didn’t join my union because I found it hard to justify £30 a month membership. When I first heard it, I thought it was for a year which I thought was ok lol
ElusiveCrab@reddit
I justified the cost, paid for a couple years. When i needed thsm they were completely toothless and washed their hands of me.
Absolute con.
BrillsonHawk@reddit
Unions don't work in the private sector in anything other than extreme cases like monoliths such as rolls royce.
Wise-Youth2901@reddit
Private sector white collar jobs have never been strongly unionised.
LambonaHam@reddit
The US doesn't have higher productivity.
Their higher salaries are also illusionary. When you account for things like healthcare, cost of living, annual leave, taxation vs private payment, etc, then the salary differences are far more equal.
Extra-Sound-1714@reddit
Seriously not true. Employers pay the lowest they can get away with. Britain has very low productivity because British businesses fail to invest. Productivity does not mean work harder. You can have high productivity with lazy workers. It's about the amount of profit versus expenditure. British businesses rarely invest in decent technology or training. The business I work for has ancient bespoke computer systems that means it takes longer for staff to do their jobs than if the business had invested properly.
tomahawk66mtb@reddit
Whilst Ireland has the highest productivity in the world
Wise-Youth2901@reddit
Ireland's a bit of a weird one because they've sort of turned themselves into a corporate tax haven. Does bring some benefits for sure but leaves a lot of Irish out. The productivity is high because of the US companies using it as a base.
Due-Presentation4344@reddit
In the past 10 years the national minimum wage has risen 76%, vs the national average wage increasing 38% for full time workers. So overall, yes, the gap is rapidly decreasing.
Of course there are other considerations, the area you live, your age and experience, demand.
Sussurator@reddit
It doesn’t sound like the most productivity enhancing stat. Particularly when you consider frozen tax thresholds against the average wage.
WheresWalldough@reddit
it's not.
And then don't forget benefits.
E.g., Universal Credit pays your rent pays you for unlimited children now, free entry to attractions that costs £30+, free school meals, utility bill disounts.
You can get UC while working a nice easy low-paid job. If you look for a better job you will face 20% income tax, 8% NI, and 55% of the balance taken away from your UC. If you have to commute to that job you'll pay that out of post-tax income leaving you often worse off.
Extra-Sound-1714@reddit
Except plenty of people in low paid work do not get universal credit. You either have to be disabled or have children. Single or couples who are working will either not get any benefits or only some towards their rent. But most will get nothing.
WheresWalldough@reddit
that's not accurate.
Universal Credit is for everyone.
The principle is you get an allowance per person, plus an allowance for rent.
The rent is regional, so in inner London the rate for rent is £1300+ for a 1-bed flat.
As I explained, UC is withdrawn at 55%, so if you live somewhere with low rent then it might be you don't get anything. But in London, especially with kids, you can be eligible even over £100k salary.
Extra-Sound-1714@reddit
I can't imagine any scenario where £100k would get you universal credit. Remember there is a benefit cap.
WheresWalldough@reddit
There's no benefit cap, in practice. .
https://www.gov.uk/benefit-cap/when-youre-not-affected
You’re not affected by the cap if you or your partner:
With a 3 kids, renting in inner London, you'd be entitled to UC up to over £130k/year. No need for any disabilities, just 3 kids& rent.
Extra-Sound-1714@reddit
Show me your calculations for that please. I think you are wrong.
WheresWalldough@reddit
£130k salary
£6.5k pension
£41.532k IT
£4.61k NI
Net £77.358.
UC Work allowance £427 * 12 = £5124
Hence £72,234 pay assessed for UC reduction
£72.234 * 55% UC deduction = £39,729.7
UC
* £2160 (3-bed rent inner London) * 12 = £25920
* £424.90 (single 25+) * 12 = £5098.80
* £351.88 + £303.94 + £303.94 = £959.76 (3 kids) £959.76 * 12 = £11,517.12
Total gross award =£42,535.92
Net UC award therefore £42,535.92 - £39,729.70 = £2807.22 per year
MrTinKan@reddit
Most of the country is not London
WheresWalldough@reddit
No shit.
MrTinKan@reddit
I think you ,seemingly deliberately, missed the point. Many people so t get any help with relatively low paid jobs.
WheresWalldough@reddit
How can I have missed the point when I was the one who raised it?
What I said is
> Universal Credit pays your rent pays you for unlimited children now, free entry to attractions that costs £30+, free school meals, utility bill discounts.
This is fact.
The person replying to me stated something that isn't actually true.
UC requires you (if you don't want to be hassled) to earn 18 hours equivalent of NMW. That's £991/month. £12k/year.
Income tax kicks in at £12.5k, as does NI.
What I said is also true:
> You can get UC while working a nice easy low-paid job. If you look for a better job you will face 20% income tax, 8% NI (or 40 +2% above the higher rate threshold), and 55% of the balance taken away from your UC.
There is nowhere in the country where you are not hit by this.
My point had nothing to do with 'not getting any help' as you put it, but about the subject of the actual thread which is incentives to work.
(I should clarify that if you live somewhere very cheap then your UC entitlement might end at say, £16k/year salary, which means that you are only in effect punished between £12.5k and £16k so on a £25k salary the hit is not so bad that it might make sense to work.)
The reply to me was absolute rubbish, stating "You either have to be disabled or have children. " which is nonsense. E.g. in Brighton you'd be entitled to UC as a single person up to about £37k of annual income.
SeahorseQueen1985@reddit
£1300+ for a 1 bed flat sounds insane to me as a northerner.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
And no student loan repayments vs paying 100s a month
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
It isn't. People on min wage were/are struggling, but without growth your higher earners struggle and become apathetic. Without growth there's nothing raising your private sector wage to combat inflation.
Extra-Sound-1714@reddit
It isn't higher earners most affected by this. It's those doing jobs with skills who now earn not much more than minimum wage.
Any_Boysenberry655@reddit
It isn't, politicians are focused on giving money to most potential votes - they don't care that these decisions erode incentive for highly productive labour force to 1) work more, 2) work in the UK at all. As a result, the only way to make it seem that the economy is growing is by having more people coming here at the bottom of the pay scale, so the absolute figure keeps going up for the economy (while also the money available per person has downward pressure).
yuekwanleung@reddit
so i always say the minimum wage policy is nonsensical
it should not exist in the first place
Warm-Marsupial8912@reddit
Go to uni to qualify to be a nurse, leave with a huge student debt, for a job that pays £1 more an hour than a health care assistant, with 10 times more stress and responsibility. What's the point?
Ready-Fox-3264@reddit
When I graduated university in 2011, the minimum wage for people my age and older was £6.10 an hour. This meant a full-time employee had a gross yearly salary of £12,000. Graduate schemes, on the other hand, were offering salaries of between £20,000 and £24,000.
As of this month, someone earning the minimum wage in a full-time role will be making £25,000 a year, while graduate hires are starting at around £30,000.
Do you see what’s happened?
Striking_Cell5433@reddit
Funny enough I saw an email from 2014 and it was a report on grad salaries and it mentioned getting 35k...over 10 years ago!
Ready-Fox-3264@reddit
Whenever I have to use figures, I typically go with the average. So, today, you could of course find a graduate job, straight out of university, for £60,000 per annum in investment banking, for instance. But not every graduate would want to work in investment banking, much less be accepted onto such a scheme.
Three years ago Accenture offered my newly graduated brother £30k and I believe they're offering £34k currently. This is what the majority of employers would be willing to pay for someone inexperienced in a corporate role. It'll rise within a year or two and it'll be significantly higher in a few years' time. But again, who gets to have these roles and who gets to be paid more is the real question.
EquivalentSnap@reddit
Issue is also middle class people see lower class people on benefits as the issue than the millionaires and billionaires who always paid less tax due to their income being in shares and stock. They can put their money in Ireland or Cayman Islands. Never about rich getting less tax no it’s always how dare they scrap two child Limit or increase benefits for single moms and those with disabilities.
Also skilled jobs require a degree and interest on student loans is crazy for post grads and being increased by 10 years to pay it off. I knew people who worked minimum wage jobs just so they didn’t have to pay off their student loan
Fit_General7058@reddit
To skilled workers. Stop whinge, start standing up and striking. Start voting out politicians that have manufacturer Ed wage stagnation by increasing the inflow of cheap labour.
TroublesZoo@reddit
Yeah I often wonder if these people moaning about this stuff are also not in a union. Organise!
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
Does fuck all when the problems with the UK economy are due to lack of economic growth and lack of productivity growth.
Being in a union might get you a better wage, but cannot overcome the current structural issues with the UK economy that would improve wages across the board. We need growth
Striking_Cell5433@reddit
Pffft, like us peasants would see any increase in wages from growth. Just look at employees in supermarkets, supermarkets boast record profits. Trickle down economics does not work!
Hame_Impala@reddit
Aye, if you look at the public sector a lot of workers are genuinely poorly paid, but there's really not that much money swimming around unless we start making significant jobs cuts within the private sector.
And the risk for government is that if you quickly cave to strikes you find yourself dealing with a headache down the line if public sector staff strike again. You've given them higher pay but not gotten anything out of it.
ubiquitousuk@reddit
In the university sector we've have wave after wave of strikes with the result that salaries are down 30% in 15 years. Meanwhile, the minimum wage goes up and up, with the result that you can now have a PhD and end up earning only something like 29% above minimum wage takehome—perhaps less after accounting for benefits.
Then the government wonders why productivity and growth are stalled..
Aetane@reddit
Yes, a side effect of significant minimum wage increases over the past few years without significantly increasing other wages
SuperSpod@reddit
Honestly minimum wage increases kind of wind me up with how much they happen. My view is if a company is only paying someone minimum wage, they obviously don’t care enough about their staff to offer higher.
In the very same breath a company who is like that would have no issue upping their prices to accommodate minimum wage changes, or even lay off staff to protect their profits making it significantly worse for other staff.
I wish everyone had the drive to push for better careers but it’s not for everyone I suppose
Superb_Literature547@reddit
the country would collapse without minimum wage workers. they should be able to put a roof over their head and provide for their family just like everyone else.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
I agree but when jobs require degrees and experience i expect to be adequately financially compensated for the years i spent not earning while studying and the money i repay in student loans.
SuperSpod@reddit
If you’re coming out of uni and get a job in a skilled profession based on your uni degree then that job will most definitely not be minimum wage.
As harsh as it sounds minimum wage jobs tend to be unskilled (I don’t mean that offensively, they’re essential workers non the less)
Superb_Literature547@reddit
Great then go find someone who will pay you what you feel you deserve.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
Thats the goal buddy
Superb_Literature547@reddit
good luck! sounds like you'll need it.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
Guess something i said hit a nerve..
Superb_Literature547@reddit
not really no
mumwifealcoholic@reddit
100%
Some of these posters wouldn’t know a days work if it slapped on the face. The snobbiest from some is shocking.
SuperSpod@reddit
If you’re referring to me… I’ve been there done that, hated my life and pushed my career away from minimum wage. So no, definitely not snobby, speaking from experience at the bottom.
As it stands yes the country does need minimum wage workers it’s not demeaning to be in those positions and I never suggested otherwise, only increasing minimum wage isn’t the answer.
Aetane@reddit
Yes, while I'm happy people on minimum wage are getting more it's definitely distorting the overall market a lot.
Not sure it's a good idea to push them further yet.
Hame_Impala@reddit
Minimum wage feels like something that functions much better in a country with a strong, growing economy.
When first introduced it helped bring a lot of workers out of poverty and stopped employees from genuinely taking the piss.
Problem down the line is without growing productivity we'll end up in a place where more and more workers are caught up in the net of basically being on the minimum wage.
946789987649@reddit
People have to start somewhere, and if you don't increase minimum wage then these people cannot physically live. People cannot improve their situation if they are just thinking about how to pay for the next meal. This is such a crabs in a bucket mentality.
SuperSpod@reddit
You missed the point. Increasing minimum wage constantly also contributes to rising living costs.
Let’s take a supermarket for example, say Tesco (don’t know how accurate an example this is as I don’t know tescos wages)
Let’s say Tesco pay their staff minimum wage to stack the shelves etc. Then minimum wage goes up… the volume of Tesco’s customers don’t increase, so Tesco now operate at less of a profit than before because they have to pay their staff more.
The solution in Tescos eyes, lay off staff or increase their prices. Obviously the former is bad for the staff, and the latter is also bad for the minimum wage folk because now while their wage has gone up, so has their food shop
946789987649@reddit
It's really not that cut and dry.
You assert this as fact but that's not necessarily true. All the other people now have slightly more money and so can spend more. Maybe they decide to buy the non-own brand, maybe they buy a few more snacks etc.
Aetane@reddit
Fundamentally - a larger of Tesco's salary costs increase with minimum wage than their customer's spending power
Rush31@reddit
The volume only increases (and how much it increases by depends on the sector) if there is an increase in consumers’ purchasing power parity. If I increase the minimum wage by 10 times, but equally increase the cost of everything by 10 times, there’s no change even though the numbers have gone up.
It’s not quite so simple, you are correct, but the problem with increasing minimum wages is that that increase has to come from somewhere. And it’s not necessarily guaranteed that that increase in purchasing power parity will be fed straight back into a supermarket. It could be spent in other sectors, invested in companies, or even saved to a rainy day, amongst a myriad of ideas. But the increase in cost WILL be there, and companies have to cover the cost from somewhere.
I’m not saying that they’re right to increase the cost or lay off staff, but more saying that simply increasing wages doesn’t come in a nutshell, and what may be good for an economy isn’t necessarily good for a single company.
SuperSpod@reddit
Exactly this. People seem to think the cost a company ends up covering due to increased wages just magically comes from somewhere.
Unlikely-Jicama4176@reddit
Salary isn't the only cost to businesses, the government dropped the national insurance threshold to £5k and increased it to 15% and businesses pay more than the employee on that. Then coupled with rising energy costs (no cap on business tariffs) just doing the same work as a two years ago costs way more, as businesses only have a certain amount of cash if they have spend more on everyone and then extra on the minimum wage then that means the company has to make more money for the same work to cover the new costs and even more of they want to bring everyone up by the same rate as the minimum wage change.
Productivity is the key.
Ciato78@reddit
Couple that with the fact you basically have to have a position lined up in another company for your current provider to cave in and offer you a better package (if you’re valued). Meanwhile shitting on a potential employer you may need in the future and who has spent time and resources screening, selecting and interviewing you.
OilAdministrative197@reddit
Could argue its due to shareholder returns being at its greatest ever level.
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
No it isn't. Bullshit reddit answer without any in depth analysis or knowledgeable. Just some broad brush bs statement.
OilAdministrative197@reddit
Show the stats then boss.
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
Lol, we have a stagnant economy and stagnant productivity growth. No shit wages aren't increasing when we're becoming increasingly uncompetitive
OilAdministrative197@reddit
Our economy had never in its history been more productive than this year and has never in its history given out more dividends to shareholders.
ControversyCaution2@reddit
This is always the answer, wealth people becoming wealthier
Due-Presentation4344@reddit
No it isn’t. 17% of the countries workforce is for “the state” for example.
Shareholder profits in the billions can be taxed, but their workforce is comparatively small. Also, these companies, usually within the FTSE 100, usually pay pretty well as well as offer share schemes and good pensions.
SMEs are struggling, growth is flatlining in this group of businesses due to higher costs. How can the average worker be paid more when business is struggling?
JustUseDuckTape@reddit
I completely agree that many businesses can't afford to pay their skilled workers more, which means we need to find ways to support those businesses. The largest costs, aside from wages, tend to be taxes, rent, and energy.
We're not taxing the wealthy (both individuals and companies) enough, which means the tax burden falls on SMEs.
Tax ends up being regressive, as business rates will hit smaller companies harder. There are also plenty of tax incentives with too much admin overhead to benefit small companies. And that's putting aside the grey area of "creative accounting" and offshore offices.
Rent all goes to, you guessed it, the wealthy land owners (or banks). And energy profits have soared while small companies have to prioritise keeping the lights on over fair compensation.
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
You don't need more taxation, you need growth
Atompunk78@reddit
Lmfao good luck trying to get that message across
I’ve tried to explain this here before and it never goes well
Due-Presentation4344@reddit
Surely it’s common sense, wages go up, utilities go up, taxes go up.
The average SME with 10-250 staff turns over £6.5m. Business owners take all the risk, provide the community with jobs, services and pay taxes, These people aren’t often taking home millions in dividends.
Atompunk78@reddit
Ahahah, yes I totally agree, but explaining that to >50% of Redditors
ControversyCaution2@reddit
Businesses aren’t struggling, they’re just doing whatever it takes to minimise profits because of the benefits
They use loopholes, hide money, pay imaginary mark ups and “service fees”
Look at the profits of investment firms, they’re making more money than ever
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
In what sense do you mean shareholder returns? Dividends, capital growth?
You also realise that the majority of shareholders of large listed companies are just normal people's pensions? Not some seperate group of people to rage against
OilAdministrative197@reddit
The top 1% control 50% of shares. So yes some peoples pensions benefit them a little but relatively speaking its only going one way. Furthermore the poorer you are the more likely you are to work for a wage where you taxed in cases over 60%. If you didnt work were purely paid via capital gains depsite being richer and not working youre taxed at 18%...
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
Can you provide a source for top 1% controlling 50% of shares?
OilAdministrative197@reddit
Literally everywhere, can you find a source that denies it.
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/investmentspensionsandtrusts/bulletins/ownershipofukquotedshares/2022
Fig1. Around 10% of UK quotes shares are owned by UK based individuals
"Literally everywhere" lol I'm sure
OilAdministrative197@reddit
Thats not the point though....
The point was the concentration of shares held by the top 1%.
This is talking about british ownership of british shares. Theres no mention of wealth?
All it says is that british pension funds from 40% to 4% ownership so basically our pension funds barely contribute anymore which is insane and then most share per capita of the british stock market is held in the cayman island to avoid tax.
Unless im going mad, i think this support the idea that our market is now dominanted by the rich?
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
Well the top rate of CG tax is 24% so that's total nonsense already
OilAdministrative197@reddit
Basic rate is 18%. Either way, gonna be a lot less than paye rate.
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
Is the basics rate likely to be relevant to the top 1%?
Capital can be moved across borders instantly - you increase CG tax to income tax levels and would likely just end up with less revenue and less capital in the country
OilAdministrative197@reddit
Didnt back when they were paying 40% pre financial crisis. Infact the everyday person was way better off.
You can earn 50k for basic rate at 18%. Think most people could easily live off that pretty comfortably and then just not withdraw more than that espeically if major purchase are already made like house car which would could easily do. Thats also not factoring most of those kinds of people with have super complex structures to make sure they essentially earn as little as possible.
ManOnlyLurks@reddit
And you would be arguing wrong. The majority of the UK's workforce are employed by SMEs and, whilst the picture is always mixed across sectors, they are not making record profits.
JustUseDuckTape@reddit
The SMEs aren't making record profits, but a lot of that is because larger companies are. One of the biggest costs facing most businesses at the moment is energy, and they're certainly doing well.
We've seen an ever increasing regulatory burden over the last decades, which disproportionately favours the larger companies that can absorb the overheads.
While the economy certainly isn't a zero sum game, if one group is earning a whole lot more, that money's probably coming from somewhere else. So I do think it's fair to say that a big part of the issue is increasing shareholder profits. It's just a couple more steps removed for most people.
ManOnlyLurks@reddit
But then you can take it a step further - "shareholders" are not all Bezos and Musk. They are pension/investment funds which will go on to invest in other business or pay out to pensioners to put money back into the economy. Of course, there will be individual shareholders withdrawing value but they took the risk in buying/founding the business and will similarly redeploy capital or go and spend it - which is good for consumer goods, luxury goods, tourism etc etc.
The reality for most people in junior roles wondering why minimum wage is catching them up is sinply because their employer couldn't afford the same % of pay rise across the board. Compounded it was simply too much.
JustUseDuckTape@reddit
I agree. But I do think a major reason they can't afford it is because wealth is migrating up towards the already wealthy. Or, perhaps better put, the market and regulatory conditions that allow wealth to gather are also putting more strain on SMEs.
Yes, not every shareholder is Bezos or Musk, but the majority of shares are held (whether directly or through pensions/investment funds) by those that are already wealthy.
And yes, reinvestment is absolutely necessary for the economy. But it's not like they're doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, reinvestment is just another way for the wealthy to become more so. If profits are being reinvested it's only so that they can make more profit in future.
Unlikely-Jicama4176@reddit
The countries productivity has barely raised in years. High productivity (e.g. amount of work needed to create a points worth of value) is needed to generate high salaries. I work in the design side of construction and more stringent regulations on everything (not just fire regs, that I agreed needed tightening up.) This has increased the amount of work needed for building the same house by several times over. It also means paying for additional consultants which does help GDP.
mumwifealcoholic@reddit
And yet the houses they build are still shite….
ManOnlyLurks@reddit
And all the extra hoops, costs, submissions and resubmissions for planning too...
Productivity is a huge issue and one we haven't cracked in nearly two decades.
OilAdministrative197@reddit
Statistically you are of course completely incorrect but not let woke numbers get in the way of your lived experiance.
If major corps see explosions in shareholder returns and sme remain neutral to slightly inflation adjusted growth which sme on average have seen, statistically im 100% right.
Infernode5@reddit
If a company has a decent year they aren't going to spunk all that retained profit on massive salary increases, when an average to poor year next time out would mean large scale redundancies. They're much more likely to reinvest into the business.
ManOnlyLurks@reddit
Firstly, if you want to be taken seriously in the grown up world of the private sector I'd recommend dropping words like woke. Save it for campus.
Secondly, if you want to hunt around for some long term graph which shows increasing profits/shareholder returns you'll probably find it, as you can with most stats. Just make sure it's inflation adjusted and dig deeper to realise the large discrepancies and imbalances within. Remember a lot of shareholders are your pension fund.
The question here is around the recent wage compression between minimum and near minimum wage roles and junior management and developing skilled roles. The reality is the sheer scale of minimum wage rises compounded over the last 4 years have eroded the differential in many sectors. The obvious response seems to be "yeah and tight shareholders wont increase everyone elses as they need another yacht"... which is ridiculous and facile - the answer is most businesses simply cant afford it.
At the same time businesses have faced into higher wages they have seen higher interest rates, higher business rates, increasing NICs, increasing packaging taxes, increasing energy costs, FX fluctuations and political and economic volatility. For SMEs passing on costs have been a real challenge and business leaders have a responsibility to budget accordingly.
Royal_Community_9626@reddit
*experience
Ciato78@reddit
Not to mention the outright refusal to adjust the tax bands.
Aetane@reddit
Hold on, let me just shake the workers piggy bank again - see if there's any more coppers we can give to pensioners
Hame_Impala@reddit
Might as well get workers to start transferring their pay-packet to middle-class pensioners in the south of England again. Those cruises don't pay for themselves.
Kremm0@reddit
People getting captured by the tax bands is a great way for the government to get more revenue, whilst workers end up paying more tax until they're shifted, and it's significant. They could index it to inflation if they wanted
MrTinKan@reddit
Perhaps those skilled roles just aren't as skilled as you think.
OK_Cake05@reddit
Because the UK has chronically low wages
Superb_Literature547@reddit
we have the 13th highest wages in the world. The highest is only 34% more than us. We earn very well in comparison to the rest of the world.
OK_Cake05@reddit
What’s your source for that?
Superb_Literature547@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage
very basic
OK_Cake05@reddit
There’s a 6K difference between UK and Canada. That’s pretty big gap. Even if you take out the top 3 which can be considered outliers because their cost of living is so high; it’s a 19k difference between UK and united states.
Superb_Literature547@reddit
Ok and?
there's a 43K difference between us an Mexico. and Mexico isn't even a poor country.
OK_Cake05@reddit
Mexico is 71st for GDP v uk 20th. That’s not a good comparison
Superb_Literature547@reddit
out of 195 countries we are no. 13. you need to go outside and enjoy life.
OK_Cake05@reddit
Very much enjoy my life thanks. Comparing UK salaries to the poorest counties is not a flex. For a developed country with a decent GDP the salaries a relatively low. Thats the point.
Superb_Literature547@reddit
I didn't compare to the poorest I compared to the entire world of which were are in the top 10%. they aren't even remotely "relatively low" you are living in a fantasy land.
OK_Cake05@reddit
And there’s a big gap between the UK and the top 10%. It’s not fantasy when you look at the data that shows wages have been stagnant.
Superb_Literature547@reddit
there isnt though, you think you life would be substantually diffrent if you had a 20% pay raise?
OK_Cake05@reddit
Er yeah!
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
Why would you compare the united states? Do you want our economy to look anything like what they have? Do you have a plan for turning GBP into the global reserve currency?
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
Exactly - people just love to be miserable, things are generally fine.
Assume the 34% is the US which is a total outlier and has required a brutal form of hyper capitalism to achieve.
OK_Cake05@reddit
Yes, miserable for wanting people to be paid more.
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
No, miserable for using language such as "chronically low wages" for a country that has wages in the top tier globally
OK_Cake05@reddit
Because there’s been poor wage growth in real terms for over a decade. https://www.statista.com/statistics/933075/wage-growth-in-the-uk/
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
That's a very different point than your original "chronically low wages"
Even though wage growth has been lower by historic UK standards it is again still competitive with most peers (e.g EU average)
OK_Cake05@reddit
That’s is chronically low, because wages haven’t grown, not even with rate of inflation!
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
You're talking complete nonsense - wages have grown above inflation over any time period you choose. Not by loads but they clearly have.
OK_Cake05@reddit
Not by loads=chronically low. Wages should be reasonable amount above inflation for people to be better off. Simple fact is, that has not been the case in the UK, housing, food, and utilities have skyrocketed putting a greater squeeze on poor increases of wages.
nathderbyshire@reddit
Well I'd say they're low compared to what we have to pay out. Rent, mortgages, energy and council tax have all had some serious increases across the country over the last few years. Doesn't matter if our wage is comparable to other countries if our living costs are outpacing wage increases, which is the reality for a lot of people.
It would be interesting to see how our costs compare to similar countries where our wages are similar. One country might be comparable in wages and housing but they could have significantly cheaper public transport, like our trains are a ripoff and massively eat into wages
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
That's called ppp, you can look it up and will again find we are pretty average for a developed country. Some things are more expensive but others are cheaper (we have some of the lowest food prices on the developed world).
And living costs are not outpacing wage increases. That's called real wage growth which again you can look up and find has been positive if slow over the last 5, 10, 15 years.
Superb_Literature547@reddit
person in very rich country angry his country isn't even more rich.
OK_Cake05@reddit
It’s not even about wanting to be rich. It’s about not struggling to even be average. Food inflation has gone up. Saw a post on here the other day asking what small luxuries are people giving up because of not being able to afford them anymore!
Superb_Literature547@reddit
Luxembourg - yep a outlier
Asher-D@reddit
Really? I'm used to earning a lil over twice as much as what my field pays here, unless you mean in relation to COL?
Superb_Literature547@reddit
in terms on median pay across the country in comparison to other countries.
Dan_85@reddit
It really should be a national scandal.
zeusoid@reddit
Why?
When everyone complains about Jr Doctors striking to get pay restoration.
When everyone thinks that 100k is living it large.
The U.K. is bad minded when it comes to acknowledging other peoples success with financial reward.
Look at how people talk about taxation if you earn anything north of 50k.
Until the people actually get to a point where the rhetoric is not derisory about those on earnings above them, the wages are all going to average down
Dan_85@reddit
I don't disagree. The mentality around wages in this country is terrible, and plays a large role in why we're in this mess.
OK_Cake05@reddit
It won’t be, because if you ask for more people will say you shouldn’t complain and be happy to have a job. Race to bottom attitude
frosting_the_bowl@reddit
Lol no we dont. Why do you think we have so many people wanting to come and work over here?
Asher-D@reddit
Almost everyone I know has moved here because here due to insanely low COL (4 times lower) despite far lower pay (about half as much, depends on field, sometimes its actually the same, sometimes it can be as high as 3-4 times lower, minimum wage is about the same though), that you still come out better off moving here.
And other reasons of course, but the financial reason isn't because of higher pay (as pay is signifcantly lower), it's because of lower costs.
Aetane@reddit
Wages can be chronically low for a developed country and still be a massive improvement for many other countries
frosting_the_bowl@reddit
Except we arent low for a developed country either
TheRimReaper99@reddit
My dad was a printer in late 90's earning roughly £14 a hour just printing news papers, magazines you name it in a factory.
I'm making aeroplanes parts for various aircraft, wings, doors, engine casings etc for a320, a400m etc and I'm getting £17 hour... I'm dealing with complex aircraft parts that have ridiculously high standards and tolerances. Having a look at the inflation calculator £14 a hour back in the 1999 is around £30 a hour today. I am no where near that target considering the role I do compared to my dad. Our wages are absolutely shocking.
frosting_the_bowl@reddit
Your dad wouldnt be getting paid that kind of money now.
Jobs like factory work and warehousing arent paying as much as they used to due to cheaper foreign labour.
Full-Measurement4927@reddit
Bingo
No_Intern5991@reddit
But if you quit today are there a queue of people who would snap your employer's hand off for £17 per hour? That's the only calculation they're doing. There's no morals involved and they pay whatever the minimum they can get away with is.
It's why professional footballers are paid so well (because they're so rare) and cleaners are basically disposable and are paid the minimum the law allows.
TheRimReaper99@reddit
Believe it or not, we are actually struggling to find skilled and competent workers lol. In our line of work the only company that trumps all the others is Rolls Royce who actually pay a decent wage compared to the rest of the sector.
OK_Cake05@reddit
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uks-average-salary-compares-other-163300027.html
We are
dr2501@reddit
Yes, absolutely, and it discourages ambition in the UK.
Entire_Bed_1303@reddit
Yes, the wage gap is shrinking. There was a mandatory increase to minimum wage ("living wage") and an upwards pressure on wages due to inflation. Wage growth outdid inflation recently. Business material input costs have generally risen, as has staffing costs. So businesses are not raising wages in the middle where the skilled individuals are, because there isn't money to do so, and there isn't a very competitive labour market to force these raises. They're forced to pay more to the lowest earners and can't as easily create staggered pay grades due to this. That means they can't afford to incentivise people like you to raise their productivity because government policy is costing them more for unskilled labour, and reducing the number of unskilled workers they can afford to take on as their pipeline to future skilled workers.
Tax is not your question, but obviously makes the situation worse unless you're a very low earner. The highest earners are hit very hard, the high middle earner has drifted into higher tax bands. So their incomes have risen if they're in the most skilled and necessary jobs where businesses can't afford to not pay up e.g. specialist IT, niche surgeon, specialist engineering or finance roles. Those individuals demand their pay because otherwise they leave.
The cost of goods for consumers is up globally. Our currency isn't as strong as it used to be. We have high energy costs from investment in renewables and underinvestment in nuclear and legacy fossil fuels. Everyone will feel poorer.
ZeroMocha@reddit
The higher you go too, there is wage compression due to fiscal drag. People not wanting to go over £100k because the tax bands being frozen make it shit and not worth the extra load
AnninaCried@reddit
A lot of minimum wage jobs, (particularly in retail and hospitality), don't give full time hours so while they may seem comparably paid at a glance the reality is quite different.
IndependenceDue9650@reddit
On the other hand, skilled trades are booming. Starting rates where I work range from £250 to £500 a day. The main reason for that is a shortage of young people who want to take those jobs. With the new digital tax rules for sole traders, rates will go up even more, which I am more than happy about.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
What sort of trades? Electrician etc?
IndependenceDue9650@reddit
Normal labourer with so-so skill charges £250 a day. He just needs to come to work sober, on time, don't use his phone at work and 90% of site managers will be overjoyed and will have him on every project they do.
Carpenters £300+, site managers £400+. Other trades I can't tell because I don't deal with them but rates are probably similar.
They are downsides like working away from home, longer days etc. but in 6-7 months I will get around £50-60k and have 4-5months of holiday :)
Famous_Clerk_7529@reddit
How many hours to get that pay mate?
IndependenceDue9650@reddit
10h day, sometimes less if the job is done quicker, never more.
NoYouAreTheFBI@reddit
My shareholder value is fit to burst urrrrnnggh lets shrinkflate the product and stagnate the wages to report uurrmnggg ever growing profitability of 0 uuurrrnnngg tax avoidance daddy we make nothing we sell millions and facricate everything hhhuugggnnngngnngn thyne stonks doth throb verily in my expanding sharfolio. Stick the folio in my swollen trustfund hhmmmmmpph...
This is what greed sounds like to me and I can't fucking unhear it everytime they say the company is struggling and reporting record profits. The cunts.
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
What companies are saying they are struggling and reporting record profits?
NoYouAreTheFBI@reddit
(Why who do you work for xD) [https://share.google/vICpmxv1XDB9LNZ9C]
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
How does this answer the question at all? I didn't even scroll past Apple and Amazon which are clearly not claiming to be struggling
NoYouAreTheFBI@reddit
If they pay no rax by defenition they are claiming to be not earning therefore logically if a business is not earning it is struggling. See how they did that, I did it too.
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
Okay so following tax law rules = struggling
Got it
DryJackfruit6610@reddit
Yes definitely, I am an Incorporated engineer, with a degree, 7 years experience and multiple safety courses. Im on 42k, I asked for a 2k salary increase and was denied it
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
Move jobs, that's shit
DryJackfruit6610@reddit
Wish it were that simple, but im usually up against people with 20 years experience who are being made redundant.
My colleagues, on the previous contract type get 62k for the same role as me. Companies are cutting costs
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
What industry do you work in and what area of the country?
DryJackfruit6610@reddit
Lmao how did you know it was oil and gas
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
Should be... but its not that easy.
SpaceTimeCapsule89@reddit
My husband is in the same boat. He's been on £39k for 4 years now with no increase. He's been there for 16 years and going elsewhere isn't an option because they're all paying around the same. Young guys are walking in off the street on to £32k to do stores and logistics. They deserve a decent wage too but I think something needs done about the stagnant wage of just above minimum wage - middle/high earners
Ok_Somewhere505@reddit
Medical is not paid far more. A PA with a 2 year masters degree and no continuing professional education like professional exams is paid more than a qualified doctor with a 5 year degree and many ongoing requirements (exams, portfolio membership etc. all paid out of pocket). Nurses are up in arms that doctors are striking for restoration of their pay after years of pay cuts because somehow they don’t feel it’s fair to them that the clinician with the ultimate responsibility is paid commensurate to that.
Wes Streeting released a letter recently chastising doctors because other roles without the same qualifications, workload, responsibility & work-life disruption also work for the NHS and will never earn what a doctor earns. No shit.
When I was a HCA with GCSE’s and A Levels only, I didn’t expect to be paid anything like the ward doctors. 2 degrees, 9 years of student loans, a decade of postgraduate experience, a formal training program and professional exams later… yeah, I expect to be paid a lot more. And I’m not 🤡
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
Yeah no wonder Doctors are leaving to australia etc when we dont value them
Ok_Somewhere505@reddit
I think the UK unfortunately fosters a ‘race to the bottom’ mentality, that’s hugely promoted by those at the top.
NoExperience9717@reddit
Wages have stagnated since the the early 2010s in the West outside of the US and there's been an actual policy goal of increasing minimum wage to 2/3 (67%) of median wage from 50% a decade or so ago. Coupled with high cost of living it adds to the general feeling of wage stagnation.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
I didnt realise that was an official policy
NoExperience9717@reddit
"The government is committed to raising living standards of working people, which remains a central priority of the Plan for Change. The current benchmark of two-thirds of median hourly earnings is a recognised measure of low hourly pay, and the government believes it should continue to be the key reference point for future rates."
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-minimum-wage-and-national-living-wage-low-pay-commission-remit-2026/low-pay-commission-remit-2026-national-living-wage-and-national-minimum-wage
Ok_Security2934@reddit
My mate works for the police. At the top of their pay scale they earn 60k, if the pay kept with inflation from 2008 it would 78k apparently.
Excellent_Spare_2239@reddit
Simply put: yes, BUT the wage gap between the very/ultra-wealthy (i.e. top 10-20%) and everyone else is growing massively.
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
Top 20% are ultra wealthy? That's an absurd take.
And there's also pressure at high incomes (still much less than top 10%) as well due to the insane marginal tax rates that come in over 100k (over 100% if including childcare provision withdrawing) which often forms effectively a salary cap.
Excellent_Spare_2239@reddit
Oh so shoot me, I got the percentages wrong. The point still stands.
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
Top 20 percent, ultra wealthy? What the fuck are you on about
BigReference1xx@reddit
Lol, wealthy vs ultra wealthy is only within the top 1%.
20% earners can't even pay to put their kids in nursery.
lungbong@reddit
Top 20% aren't ultra wealthy, it's just over £50k.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
Yes agree with this.
DisastrousRecord1802@reddit
Six(?) years ago Joiners in my work got £14. They now get £16.50.
eric-artman@reddit
Gap is about 30p per/h unless you’re highly skiled
smackledawbed@reddit
Can we get past this idea that no qualifications = unskilled?
Factory and supermarket work requires skills that say, software engineering, doesn't. And vice versa.
thegerbilmaster@reddit
This.
And a lot less people are willing to do factory work vs the hundreds of thousands of software engineers who will be replaced by AI.
Wishmaster891@reddit
If software engineers are replaced by AI then whats stopping all other office being replaced by AI
thegerbilmaster@reddit
A lot of the low tier office stuff will come eventually
SYSTEM-J@reddit
I don't know why people bother insisting on this line that "There's no such thing as unskilled work". You know exactly what is meant and you're deliberately trying to make the word "skill" completely redundant so nobody's feelings gets hurt about their life outcome. Stacking shelves in a supermarket is unskilled work, and a hundred million Reddit complaints to the contrary won't change that.
Mr__Random@reddit
The people who have hurt feelings are the ones that are finding out that sitting on the sofa answering emails isn't a particularly rare or valuable skill.
SYSTEM-J@reddit
Sure, but I wasn't replying to one of those people so I'm not sure of the relevance.
Infernode5@reddit
Someone trained in accountancy/law etc. are obviously skilled, even if you just see it as "answering emails on the sofa".
Mr__Random@reddit
Accountants and lawyers are on a lot more than £30,000 per year
unconventional-train@reddit
Tbh, I think it's more about the people who studied a trade for 4 years earning fuck all at the time now being lumped in with shelf stackers and warehouse workers. Emails and meetings aren't especially skilled, but no one is training for years to do that either
EulersNumber272@reddit
Exactly this. Stacking shelves is not a skill. That’s simply your job. 99% of people could start this job at 8am tomorrow morning as be as “qualified” as everybody else by 9am. There are countless other examples.
I think minimum wage should be about where it is considering the cost of living and housing. Skilled work needs to be better paid to make it worth doing.
spoonguyuk@reddit
I’ve always assumed the terminology referred more to if you needed skills to get the job. There are skilled supermarket and factory jobs.
Ok_Young1709@reddit
Tech doesn't pay that well anymore. Seen companies wanting pentesters for 45k. That's insane. They will get them but they won't get good people.
But yes the gap is decreasing. Why bother upskilling when you can get roughly the same amount of money for an easier job?
Wishmaster891@reddit
What is a pentester?
KvotheTheUndying@reddit
Penetration tester, its a cybersecurity role where you job is basically to try and 'hack' into your employers infrastructure so that they can see where their weaknesses are and fix them.
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=what+is+a+pen+tester
MyAlt4WomanyStuff@reddit
Pen tester?
Wishmaster891@reddit
45k to test pens sounds like a great job
happybaby00@reddit
Crabs in a bucket
Darkgreenbirdofprey@reddit
No. It's because women are having kids later.
It's always been about having children. There is no wage gap before women have children.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
Erm what
Darkgreenbirdofprey@reddit
There is no wage gap between men and women before having children.
The wage gap is caused by maternity leave and the effects is has on the woman's career.
Fast_Apple_2237@reddit
The gap between those who work for a living is being flattened, while the wealth of those who don't work for a living is skyrocketing
Superb_Literature547@reddit
If the pay is not high enough for the role don't take it?
The companies job is to fill roles with the lowest cost to themselves, if they have 50 people bite there hand off for £5k above minimum wage they obviously aren't going to offer more.
Minimum wage has nothing to do with it other than to force everyone's pay up.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
Its not forcing everyones wages up though. That is the point.
ElijahKay@reddit
Which means your job aint as important. And your skills aint in a demand.
Really demand=higher wage.
Shortage of skill=higher wage.
Aint complicated. You re easy to replace cause theres 500000 other uni graduates waiting.
PileOGunz@reddit
Unfortunately this is true my company churns through software engineers and seems to have no problems finding replacements. I think the days of knowledge work being a good job are ending.
Superb_Literature547@reddit
there are just more people with the knowlege.
ElijahKay@reddit
For reference - I sympathise.
My last job had "Strategist" in the title and I was making 35k.
Superb_Literature547@reddit
unfortunately the role you think *should* be paid more simply isn't worth it to your employer.
CalendarOld7075@reddit
Yes and all by design.
BellendBuilder@reddit
I think it is in office based roles.
I work in construction and engineering (business owner) and I’ve taken labourers on who I pay more to carry shit from A to B and sweep up more than those salaries you’re on about.
Lads and lasses who prove themselves i will then upskill them and pay them in accordance to their newly acquired skills.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
Yeah I agree. I have a labourer friend w no wuals or experience taking home more than I do and he says his work isnt hard at all and h'es now enrolled on courses to progress
BellendBuilder@reddit
Labouring isn’t hard mate at all. It’s just boring.
So if you can stick it out for a few months, turn up on time and do what’s needed to be done. Then go and present yourself to the tradesmen and watch what they’re doing and ask questions, any good business owner will upskill
It’s the labourers who go through agencies on house bashing sites that never progress anymore.
For context. I started as a labourer, after coming out jail for fighting and losing a successful security business and now I own another business.
Jails will fund CSCS cards for prisoners, same as the JCP as they know it’s easy to get into and there’s enough money to be made that either parties “services” are unlikely to ever be used again.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
Well done for turning your life around that's impressive
BellendBuilder@reddit
Thankyou but it wasn’t so much turning my life around as it was having 20 minutes of absolute hate and violence in my soul when I walked in on my mums partner hitting her.
ClickerKnocker@reddit
cries in non-London based software engineer
PileOGunz@reddit
On the bright side hopefully when we’re too old for the job we can take the 5k pay cut and get something min wage.
happybaby00@reddit
Eh but you can get a house in a reasonable amount of time.
ClickerKnocker@reddit
A bold assumption.
RainbowPenguin1000@reddit
“Earn that with overtime in a factory”
Yes because you’re working more hours and have less of a life outside work.
Any_Boysenberry655@reddit
Lol, as if someone on a high salary doesn't work more than 40 hours without explicitly being paid more for those hours. I'm on a high salary, but since I started as a new graduate, I've rarely worked less than 60 hour weeks, sometimes being closer to 70-80h per week. At the same time, my contracts have always been for 35 hours per week, with no over time pay. So a more accurate comparison would be to look at pay per actual hour worked, not per contractual hours.
In any case, UK will continue to go downwards as long as politicians will care more about benefits than figuring out how to ensure that those that bring in the most taxes are incentives to find ways to do even more (and thus being in even more taxes to fund services that benefit the entire society).
RainbowPenguin1000@reddit
So you work for a crap company that requires extra hours to complete the workload for no reward - not all salary roles are like that.
Any_Boysenberry655@reddit
Right, tell me you've never worked in a role with a high salary and a high bonus, without telling me
RainbowPenguin1000@reddit
On the contrary I have and for many years. I’ve hired graduates and I’ve managed graduates.
The truth is some people, like yourself, think it’s impossible to get good money and bonuses without working yourself in to the ground and it’s just not true.
Find a good company and they won’t take advantage of you like that. When you’re older and more experienced you’ll understand.
Any_Boysenberry655@reddit
I guess depends what you consider a high salary - feel free to send roles my way that 1) don't require overtime, 2) if they do, pay an hourly overtime rate for every hour worked, 3) has a comparable TC (for reference, currently entirely salary and performance bonus excluding anything like stock options etc is between £350-£450k. Cheers!
2ndnin@reddit
Which is expected of salaries work without the overtime pay
bars_and_plates@reddit
The issue is that the Government has increasingly taken the stance that everyone needs to be provided with the amount of money which buys the basics, regardless of whether there are enough basics available. It's an economically illiterate position which cannot work to achieve the goal.
People consider it "greed" on behalf of service providers, to me this is kind of a rant that misses the point - there are limited resources and when you put more money into the system without increasing the resources available, you just increase the bids, it's the pigeonhole principle, if there are 1 million inelastic demand / "essential things" and 1.1 million people bidding for them then 1 million people are going to maximally outbid the other 1.1 for them.
Someone working 16 hours a week can get universal credit, housing benefit, their 16 hours are paid more than they otherwise would be due to minimum wage, etc. Pretty much all of this money flows through one or two steps into housing, bidding the market rate up. It gets votes but it doesn't actually fix anything, you just have to come back next year and increase all of the minimums / benefits / pensions / whatever but then of course all the prices adjust because there is no increase in productivity going on.
There needs to be an effort by politicians, competent ones, to move away from spreadsheet style accounting and towards real physical accounting e.g. we can't eat pounds sterling or live under its' roof, we need to actually build physical infrastructure - and that we means "me, you, us" not "they".
HotLyps@reddit
It's what happens when capitalism rules. Employees are an expense to be minimised, profit is to be maximised, so prices rise whenever it is possible.
At the low end we have to have laws to prevent egregious abuse of employees and to ensure some basic ability of people to survive. That protection has to creep up gradually because of the profit maximisation.
The minute you're out of the region protected by law you feel the full weight of capitalism, squeezing you as much as is possible.
And yes, there are some fields where the pay is higher, but don't for a second imagine that the same underlying pressures aren't just as prevalent.
ProofLegitimate9990@reddit
You’ve got it backwards, increasing minimum wage makes running a business more expensive so prices have to go up to compensate.
makefascistfearagain@reddit
Actually businesses are striving to price things at the most profitable rate at all times, and you can't just increase the price of things and get more money.
ProofLegitimate9990@reddit
Sounds like you don’t understand inflation, high prices doesn’t mean higher profits.
makefascistfearagain@reddit
Ok so you don't understand basic economics but it appears you may be bluffing when it comes to speaking English too.
What you said has nothing to do with my post or yours.
Souldestroyer_Reborn@reddit
Yep, and all those other people not on minimum wage find that any funds that would’ve gone to their wage increases, go to the minimum wage people instead.
No_Intern5991@reddit
Your employer isn't required to raise your wage annually. They do it to retain staff. If they could pay you even less now, they would.
Unless you've got very specialist skills or experience, there are 100 other people who will jump into your role tomorrow. That's the real reason there's not incentive for them to raise pay.
Thinking that people on the minimum wage are stealing your pay rises is full on crabs in a bucket mentality.
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
It's what happens when you have an economy that's largely stagnant for 15 years. Fuck off with this bollocks.
Even unionised workplaces, pushing for wage increasing, cannot fix the broad issues that come from lack of economic growth.
Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit
Any worker is free to go back to a life of gathering berries or farming and average plot for their family if they think capitalism is making their situation worse.
Electronic_Shift5195@reddit
This is not capitalism, it is socialism. Everyone is equal, isn't it what you lefties always wanted? Compare our situation with capitalist US, where professionals now earn double of European salaries. Even more depressing in tech, where multiplier is closer to 5x.
Sam__@reddit
Are you saying the massive gap in billionaires income and someone on min wage is due to... Socialism? 👏👏👏🤣😂🤣
That really made my Sunday morning. Thanks for the laugh 🤣🤣🤣.
Electronic_Shift5195@reddit
We were discussing the gap between min and professional wages, didn't we? Why did you jump to billionaires, is it some kind of leftie reflex?
Sam__@reddit
My understanding is capitalism is the current global structure, not socialism. Please let me know if this is wrong. If socialism were in fact in place then there would be no billionaires and more money for the rest of us. How can you think things aren't capitalist right now?
This is exactly what the elite want. The little people fighting amongst themselves for the scraps the leave behind. Why fight our neighbour who's also struggling for the final 0.001%?
Eat the rich.
Peace and love my friend 😘
parasoralophus@reddit
America, lol.
No_Weakness8999@reddit
It amazes me how you people who bleep on about the minimum wage being a holy grail that saves us never look over at the US where work simply pays more despite a much lower federal minimum wage.
The moeny for pay growths is being used to subsidise the minimum wage in a flattened economy.
frosting_the_bowl@reddit
Yea ill take this over communism thanks
CelebrationDue9661@reddit
It is, because the minimum wage keeps increasing but that inflation is being absorbed further up the chain.
I think the government's expectation was that they'd protect the lowest paid (true) and help everyone else get a decent increase in pay by proxy.
Unfortunately the latter hasn't happened because there are so many people in this country looking for work, and a great many people in work aren't on secure terms.
Asher-D@reddit
I mean they could make it the law that everyone's pay must increase with minimum wage.
CelebrationDue9661@reddit
They could but it'd appear very handed. Employers might argue it'd be better for the government to focus on reducing inflation, which is something they'd be better at controlling
No_Charge_8845@reddit
Essentially, the opportunity cost to access higher paid roles is increasing.
40+ years ago, you could access these roles just by working your way up in a company. Aside from a few pockets (like the army), this doesn't exist anymore. People first accepted the opportunity cost of 3 years in university (rather than full time work). That was financially-burdensome enough.
Then the cost kept growing: first came tuition fees, then they kept growing (tripled), unpaid or low-paid internships, low-paid entry level jobs, and now the standard is low-paid mid-level jobs (especially when compared to jobs you could get without all this career hassle). You might be 40+ years old before it finally pays off, if it ever does.
People will keep accepting it though because it's the only way 'out' of the rat race. Your only hope of ever retiring now is saving a decent amount yourself, which requires a large income. It's also the only hope of home ownership and having a family.
No_Intern5991@reddit
Yes, the gap is absolutely compressing. A couple of points though:
The sorts of jobs that pay minimum wage very rarely offer standard full-time hours nowadays, so it's not just a case of multiplying the minimum wage by full-time hours to come up with the annual income of someone in these jobs. Someone in a minimum wage job will often be earning a lot less than £25k.
Most of the lower paid jobs are absolutely brutal on your body. They might not require a 'high-pressure' level of knowledge work, but they're pressured in their own way. Very few people are just chilling out in a minimum wage job, and there aren't a queue of people leaving offices to work in an Amazon warehouse, supermarket or as a care worker.
Low wages are a real problem in the UK though. Unfortunately, it's just supply and demand playing out in the real world. If you don't take the job advertising £28k-35k, there's 100 other people who will bite the employer's hand off, so there's no incentive for them to offer any more. I'm not sure how we fix this.
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
Most of that was true before the rises though, when the difference was greater.
Dualyeti@reddit
My gf just got a job as a barista in a art gallery cafe for 29k a year. It’s more than the entry level position is at my skilled job. Yes there is much less progression in the cafe, but as many of my youngsters know, it’s not exactly fast to progress these days, most companies will keep you in your role for as long as possible, which can be years.
chrisjwoodall@reddit
Yes it is, but there’s reasons skilled people aren’t flocking to do those factory or supermarket jobs to make the same cash… have a go for a few years if that’s how you feel (I say this as a graduate who works as a bus driver btw).
Mr__Random@reddit
Sitting on zoom meetings and outlook all day doesn't take as much "skill" as people think.
Specialist_Invite538@reddit
You're not a skilled worker if that's all you do. Obviously that's bollocks.
CultistOfTheFluid@reddit
You're correct, but the conversations had during those meetings you generally need to be informed. Graduates don't know the industry but would hopefully know the subject.
I do think the trend is moving more towards liability than actual critical thought now though, people are hesitant to progress their subject because of external factors.
I work in consultancy (but not that kind) and we also run a contracting team. The amount of times a completely fine process gets reworked or refined on the basis of public perception is unreal.
The kit we use has big moving parts - half of which to accommodate emergency stops/safety - but if Jerry from down the road finds it "a bit scary" then all of a sudden everyone needs to rewrite every workflow just to accommodate.
HopefulBroccoli8712@reddit
The smugness here is off very funny to see
Crafty_Stop_5147@reddit
You only have to do the figures in your head to see how much worse supermarket work has become - you rarely see more than half a dozen staff on or around the till area now, where previously you would see 2 or 3 times that. And self-service tills are the worst to work on, on your feet constantly and, during busy hours, back and forth between one flashing red light and another. Unskilled maybe, but brutally hard work at times, and stressful on body and mind.
trypnosis@reddit
Skilled roles wages increase with expertise so what may start at 35k, depending on the role could hit 6 figures. Where as the the other roles may boost with over time but are limited how high they can go.
Wise-Youth2901@reddit
It's a question of productivity. Many UK companies have not produced much wealth over the last 20 years. Same applies across Europe. Meanwhile, the US of A kicks our arses constantly on this front. The US is very unequal and the rewards at the top are now insane but, despite what the left now like to say, some of that wealth actually does trickle down. And white collar corporate jobs pay significantly better in the US. The UK's problem is one of economic stagnation and no amount of trade unions or state mandated wage hikes will fix that problem. You're debating how to slice up the cake as opposed to baking a bigger cake.
makefascistfearagain@reddit
By what measure is the USA significantly more productive?
MattyJMP@reddit
I think it is more that the the difference between entry level minimum wage jobs and 'middling' normal jobs has shrunk massively, due to rubbish wage increases of the latter.
My partner works at a university in the admissions team, but the same applies to lots of things like retail and hospitality. It used to be that the lowest pay grade (usually young people's first jobs) was about £18k, team leaders were on about £24k, and then assistant managers were on about £30k. It's now more like £24k, £28k, £31k.
That 'normal' working class - where people have been working for maybe 5+ years and are comfortable/enjoy being where they are doing their 'normal' jobs - have been hit HARD over the past decade.
My parents were only ever at that level. When I went to uni in 2016, my mum worked as a court clerk for about £25k, my dad worked as site support for a water company on about £32k. My childhood was never lavish, but it was pretty comfortably - nice Christmas and birthdays, two holidays in the med a year, a few nice treats here and there, and they recently retired in their mid-50s. That world no longer exists.
Longjumping_Ant4453@reddit
But that in reality is middle class to a lot of people, working class are in warehouses and need benefits to live
happybaby00@reddit
Who do you think are the main demographic of benidorm?
MattyJMP@reddit
I'm really not trying to get into 'who had it worse'. As I said, I had a comfortable normal childhood; I'm not pleading poverty here.
But my mum's job was a completely normal admin role and my dad literally stood in tanks of shite for a living... Both of them only got a handful of O-levels. My dad started working there the week after his 17th birthday and never had a real promotion in 40 years.
It doesn't get much more working class in my mind. Even now, I would say hallmarks of middle class are some form of higher education, 'professions' rather than a job (engineers, lawyers, teachers, doctors, etc.), and some sort of management responsibility. My parents didn't do any of that.
Regardless, my point was that even just one generation ago, a family could have a decent, comfortable life with two parents working very ordinary jobs. I can't think of anyone my age who does similar jobs that own a house, have children, semi-regularly go on holidays, etc.
Those 'normal' jobs now pay only marginally more than minimum wage - maybe £100-£200 p/m take home.
iaderia@reddit
uhh, working class? are you sure about that buddy
free_use06@reddit
The government and Billionares try and lower people's pay as much as possible. They have many tools to do this, automation, immigration ect. Ontop of this many government policies hurt smaller and larger businesses, reducing growth. A part of this is high taxation, reducing surplus profit that can then be reinvested. This is why our economy is stagnant compared to the american economy which grows 9% year on year
vercingetafix@reddit
You are absolutely right. This is the deliberate result of multi-decade campaign by both political parties to reduce “inequality”.
Now the minimum wage is 66% of the average wage which means we have a greater wage compression than the Soviet Union did.
Naturally, this destroys incentives for people to invest in their education or to work hard for a promotion because they can just coast at a minimum wage job for almost the same amount of money. No wonder we have a productivity crisis…
makefascistfearagain@reddit
Lol
The Tories spent 20 years smashing worker rights and surprising wages to profit off us all, and the best you have is 'grr I can't believe the communists have done this in the name of equality '
scott3387@reddit
This is the problem with minimum wage. It's bread and circuses for the modern age and doesn't help anyone.
The extra cash just increases inflation and therefore makes everything more expensive anyway. The minimum wage worker still pays the effective same for the good but now everyone else pays more. Instead of there being a competitive floor, all the businesses near minimum wage just set wages at that. This is basic economics.
All minimum wage does is two things, compresses wages because those who were earning the new minimum wage before the increase, never get a similar pay increase and if they did it would make inflation even worse.
More insidiously there are unfortunate people who through no fault of their own, cannot generate enough work value to justify minimum wage. Both physically and mentally disabled can find themselves wanting to work but end up in a permanent bennies class where they get state handouts for the rest of their lives. Only charities would employ these people at £12 an hour.
People go on about the bankers, the bonuses etc but the capitalists have you at every modern political side regardless of what you think. Obviously the right give them lower taxes, lower regulations. However, left progressives think they are helping but they are just capitalist Useful I****s by another name.
Supporting mass immigration gives them wage suppression for the poorest workers. Intersectionality is just union busting, instead of the poor uniting, you have poor, white man arguing what a woman is with a poor, black, transwomen.
It's a rich man's world, you are just living in it.
makefascistfearagain@reddit
Except it does help people and its above inflation, so if it does increase it it doesn't increase itmby as much as it adds.
9Divines@reddit
wages as a whole have been stagnant across the globe like 70s in comparison to C suite compensation packages that include stock.
Jimlaheydrunktank@reddit
Yes. 100% and it’s ridiculous
Future_You_2800@reddit
The working class people who made their own way to the middle have now been equalised with those below.
Remember sitting in class being told do well and you will reap the reward. All amongst you were the little plebs messing around having fun. Now because of fairness they get the same wages as those who worked hard.
Working hard doesnt pay in this country it just simply doesnt. Too many safety nets there to destroy any semblance of meritocracy.
Desperate_Cook_7338@reddit
Yes, which Is why you should leave this shit hole as soon as you can if you are skilled and get away from the filth.
funbundle@reddit
I thought about changing careers but noticed that a lot of roles that used to pay very well, now want 3 years of experience but don’t pay much more than minimum wage. I don’t really want to retrain for 3 years just to earn a bit more than minimum wage.
gagagagaNope@reddit
This is what happens when the morons in government tries to control a market with taxes, rules, regulaiton thinking they know best.
Endless taxes on employers and employment and employees, hyper generous benefits system that incentivises idleness and avoiding work, open door immigration to unskilled workers cheaper than modernisation and automation. The 16 hour rule where working becomes a hobby.
And on and on.
It's going to be taught as a case study just a few years from now as how to destroy a competitive, modern economy in 10 easy steps.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
I mean... if there wasn't a minimum wage or taxes i doubt that businesses would fall over themselves to pay more. They'd just pocket more of the profits
gagagagaNope@reddit
So you tax them for the sake of taxing them? How does that help them pay more?
In a competitive economy, businesses succeed and expand and fight for workers, paying more.
In the UK the government takes 15% of your pay before it even hits the top of your pay packet. Then takes another 8% then and another upto 45% then 9% for student loans, another 6% if you're a post grad.
Then takes £3 grand a year in council tax. And 20% when you dare to spend your money. Buy a house? More tax. Take from your pension savings? Tax. Saving for a house deposit or anything else? Tax on the interest.
Want to move house for a better job? Stamp duty, VAT on the moving costs, haven't sold the old house yet? Another 3% tax on the whole amount of the new home. If you rent, they've piled costs on landlords that make renting far more expensive - that income tax on your rent (due to removal of charging mortgages as a cost)? The tenant pays that. The tenant now pays the landlords income tax on their rent and has been convinced that's a good thing for them.
Part time worker? They forced the employer to now pay NI for somebody working a day a week, used to be 3 days a week. 15% increase in employing somebody (plus min wage increases). Wonder why there's no saturday jobs for kids anymore? They need to add £250 to a days taking just for wages. With costs on top (over 50% of takings for a cafe etc) they need to add double or triple that. How may 17 year olds add £750 of value to a business in 8 or 10 hours?
Exactly the same for businesses - endless regulation, tax, tariffs.
People are poor because of the governent. They punch you in the face telling you it's good for you, and a ridiculous number of the population believe them.
high_plains_grifter_@reddit
Personally think minimum wage increases are just a tax grab and easy win for the government. It doesn’t cost them a lot to implement it, they benefit from more tax revenue because of it and it is a good angle to win votes. If they really wanted you to have more money in your pocket they would increase the tax free personal allowance in line with it but it’s frozen until 2028 and possibly further. This in itself is a stealth tax and another reason why skilled workers are feeling the pinch with rising prices, stagnant wages.
Small businesses are the ones suffering from this (I know I’ll get the “if you can’t afford to pay minimum wage…” comments but hear me out) the big businesses like tesco etc can absorb this because they have monopolized the market, they can claw savings back from their supply chain and automate (meaning less workers). This means smaller businesses won’t hire anyone else or just leave the market entirely fuelling a rise in the power of corporations who will further monopolize the market both in terms of supply chain, consumer costs and employment.
It comes back to our class system and how anti entrepreneurial our country is, we don’t care if we throw small businesses under the bus because “how dare they want more for themselves” but we give the wealthy corporations a free pass.
FewAnybody2739@reddit
Depends what you mean by progression. If it's to manage other people's KPIs then that's becoming increasingly easy to do. We're moving to a system where we've got the do-ers, a big chasm, and then a few people at the top tracking everyone with computers.
I would also point out that the physical jobs you've mentioned are difficult in their own way, and can also have more pressure from customers actually in their face than you might have in an office job. A 60 hour week of physical labour is not easy, and a lot of people would prefer dealing with 60 hours of angry phone calls from customers.
Scottish_Santa@reddit
Public sector worker here (local authority). We had a long period where the gap between wage bands narrowed as pay deals were agreed that offered absolute amounts (for example, £2,000). That meant that people at lower grades got better increases relative to their starting wage.
The trend has uncoupled over the last couple/few years, however, with percentage increases back in fashion.
I have heard quite a bit of grumbling from people making comments along the lines of "it's barely worth getting promoted" etc but IMO it's bollocks, at least in the public sector. Once I reach the top increment of my grade I'll earn 25% more than the grade below me, the grade above me earns 25% more than me. It's an easy way to consider whether the extra effort of promotion is worth it.
gerty88@reddit
I’m earning the same as a physics msci graduate in 2011 when I graduated and then taught secondary for a bit as I am now as an almost qualified counsellor and as a job coach for an internship program right now. Literal stagnation.
ianvts@reddit
I think it’s worth bearing in mind that since the minimum wage came in, the stated intent has always been to raise the minimum wage to 2/3 of the median wage. A good intent for equality and a position which we have now reached give or take.
However back then it was thought that the country would be much more productive than it has been, so the median wage would be much higher and effectively everyone in society would have levelled up considerably. Of course what has happened is productivity and wages have stagnated so the 2/3 equality has been achieved at the low levels we see now, where only the very highly paid have maintained their standards of living
No_Effective_4481@reddit
Yeah, the difference is shrinking, and it's kinda depressing to watch.
Metori@reddit
One day there will be only two wages, £35k for the plebs. And unbounded millions for the upper class business owners. The government has been doing everything it can to make this a reality. Along with cost of living to basically meet or slightly exceed what one earns in a year that’s is £35k
HotCommunication1696@reddit
Yes, the minimum wage has risen drastically but full time salaries have not, this is especially apparent in industries like retail. Retail management is an extremely high pressure job but it used to be worth people pursuing because it paid well enough to justify some of the extra work load compared to staying on minimum wage. In 2018 the full minimum wage for someone 25+ was £7.50 an hour and a store manager (outside of the big supermarkets) could expect to be on the equivalent of £13-£15 an hour which was a significant jump. Now however the minimum wage is going to £12.71 an hour but management salaries have remained largely stagnant, with the average being between 30-35k outside of London which only works out at about £16 an hour, not including all the unpaid overtime which can easily bring you down to effectively minimum wage.
Randy_The_Guppy@reddit
Where I work an unqualified role is 33k-36k where as a qualified role is 40k-45k.
Worried-Departure386@reddit
My sister got a job in primark said after tax she was getting £1900. Me after university 6 years experience in software engineering and I’m getting £2500. And I’m £50k in student loan debt none sense and if I was to lose job now I be fucked. The minimum wage increased dangerously resulting in less jobs and more Redudancy!
parasoralophus@reddit
It's funny how you default to thinking your sister should get paid less rather than that you should get paid more.
Worried-Departure386@reddit
She didn’t go university and isn’t £50k in debt and is doing a job where she folds clothes? The whole reason we all went university was because we got sold the idea of being paid much better than the minimum wage and actually having a job! What’s the point going university if you can’t achieve that anymore? Might as well fold clothes and get my girlfriend pregnant and be single mother and abuse the system…
QuitTalkingPish@reddit
You went to university for software engineering, an oversaturated field. What did you expect? An easy ride that all the techbros were bragging about a decade ago where you only do the equivalent of a few hours work a day but get paid a fortune?
Simply put you’re in a field where you’re easily replaceable. That sounds like an error on your part, not hers.
Worried-Departure386@reddit
Well I’m sorry but in 2014 they were keep on telling us it’s the future like the AI right now and that we would always get a job… dude any job you do now is replaceable 🤣 okay boomer I bet you purchased your home for 20k in the 80s
QuitTalkingPish@reddit
That’d be pretty impressive of me considering I’m 36. I’m good but I’m not that good.
There were plenty of warning signs in 2014 - they were there a few years earlier when I went to Uni. The briefest of Google searches at the time showed that people across all sectors and vocations were switching in droves to tech. Slightest bit of logic showed that something akin to this was going to happen.
Sounds like you spent a fortune on a degree that to anyone with some independent thinking wouldn’t be a golden ticket yet youre angry you didn’t get the golden ticket.
Worried-Departure386@reddit
Yeah I’m sorry that at 18 I couldn’t read the writing on the wall… I bet being this smart is a curse for you!
QuitTalkingPish@reddit
It gifts me enough savvy to not wish less for people already with less than me just because I’m angry I’m not talented enough to make more for myself.
Being smart is one of numerous things that can make you more money. A university degree does not equal being smart.
What are you offering that another person isn’t? Judging by how you type it’s certainly not intelligence or personality. Be honest with yourself and then the rest of us, what do you bring that someone else doesn’t?
OldManChino@reddit
You have never worked retail
No_Intern5991@reddit
There aren't enough 'good' jobs for 50% of people to be getting degrees.
Low_Mistake3321@reddit
Having that degree certificate isn't an automatic passport to higher wages.
It's a reminder to yourself that you've used those university years to gain knowledge about ideas and approaches for thinking that give you a greater overall potential than someone who hasn't had that opportunity.
Granted that I know nothing about you or your current job role, it's up to you to use that potential in your current role by thinking more broadly beyond your immediate area of influence or responsibility, thinking ahead strategically, always be learning/developing, mentoring your colleagues and, as a result, behaving in a way that aligns with where you want to be for the next step in your career.
The increase in earnings will come as a side-effect.
thebigbioss@reddit
So your complaint should be why are you getting so little. Because at the end of the day her wage is basically the benchmark as its the minimum wage. Have you tried asking your boss for a raise, or looked at job hopping.
ramirex@reddit
yeah it’s insane like some mind virus
this guy probably looked up salaries for SWE in U.S. but still thinks others should be paid less instead them being paid more
AirconGuyUK@reddit
If he did get paid more, you'd just be saying she should also get paid more though.
parasoralophus@reddit
Would I?
lostarkrocks@reddit
Don't forget the huge tax on income above certain threshold, and while at the same time, losing out on benefits
Asher-D@reddit
I have a degree and the job I can get with .you degree pays £32-39k/yr. But I currently work an unskilled job alongside fresh out of school 18 year olds and we all get paid min £33k/yr and that's without overtime, working 35 hrs/wk.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
What job is this
No_Driver_4447@reddit
100%. Minimum wage full time is now about ?£25k. 4 years ago when I qualified as a doctor my base salary for 40 hours/week was £29k.
jordancr1@reddit
I was salary lowballed a lot recently whilst job hunting, certainly a buyers market at the moment. But regardless, I have no idea why companies do this, either they are going to get sub-par candidates, or a good candidate (that will leave as soon as something better comes up).
I do see the gap shrinking because its a buyers market, I think some companies are taking a chance that they may be able to secure a skilled person on a low salary.
Automatic-Yak4555@reddit
With the job losses AI is going to bring in the short/medium term, the number of job seekers is going to be off the scale and that’s going to suppress wages big time. The future looks pretty bleak for workers.
Sburns85@reddit
Pretty much. Friend was looking for a job and see supermarket roles offering more an hr than any job requiring qualifications. I seen the same being a butcher. Most butcher jobs are barely above minimum wage
Scratch_Careful@reddit
Wage compression in the UK means that income distribution is actually flatter than in the soviet union.
https://x.com/maxtempers/status/2042496270581776563
Gullible-Yam-8098@reddit
Yes. I got a computer science degree just in time for all entry level positions to simultaneously dry up and start offering less pay than working in a McDonald's. It isn't just stagnation, the salaries being advertised for these jobs are lower now, I've seen many over the past few years offering less than minimum wage.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
Well i dont know how thats legal to offer less than minimum
Gullible-Yam-8098@reddit
Well it isn't. When I say I've seen "many" it's still the minority, just more common than you'd expect and usually smaller local companies. I suppose some people don't realize how much the minimum wage has gone up over the past decade, that or they know there are people out there desperate enough to take the jobs anyway.
Full-Measurement4927@reddit
Min wage increase is a pay cut for anyone above.
SinsOfTheAether@reddit
short answer, yes. Source
In the 3 years to 2024, young people with a higher degree – such as a master’s degree – earned 41% more than those from the same socio-economic background with no GCSEs. Young people with an undergraduate degree earned 27% more.
The gaps between young people with different qualification levels have mostly persisted over time. Since the COVID-19 pandemic, young people with lower educational qualifications have had a slightly faster increase in income than young people with higher qualifications. This does not mean they earn more – just that their income has increased faster, making the gap narrower. Overall, higher education levels still lead to higher earnings.
ten_shunts@reddit
It's been going that way for years. In 2016 I decided to be a paramedic. Got a place on a course, just needed the C1 entitlement on my license. It was the same price to take the cat C (lorry) test, so I thought I might as well do that which would give me C1 anyway.
Passed it, had 6 months before my course started, thought I'd make use of the new license while I waited.
Within two weeks I had a job as a lorry driver, earning the same money a fully qualified paramedic would earn after 3-4 years training, plus 5 years in service. I never bothered starting the paramedic course. No wonder the NHS is short of skilled workers.
Fast forward to now, and warehouse wages have caught up with truckers wages. Why would people want all the extra stress, responsibility and legal obligation of being a professional driver over working in a warehouse? And now we have a shortage of HGV drivers...
Marlobone@reddit
With the supermarket question, fun unskilled is usually boring
No_Intern5991@reddit
I'm sure supermarket staff would love boring. It's currently brutal! Go to the r/tesco sub for some of the highlights.
FrostyImplement9565@reddit
I used to work in a job that required travel 3 times a week, and for you to work more than you should on paper. I was getting paid a couple of thousand pounds more than someone who does 10% of the work I do comparatively. So I ended up just leaving that role to go do the other job. Now I'm not stressed, worried about work, and when I finish work I'm done for the day. No point having "career ambition" if you can't get the wages for doing the job. UK wages are a fucking joke and people can argue "but the cost of living" the cost of living is still going up regardless and when I see my American counterparts being paid x4 higher than I am only to be slapped with "Buh the NHS" is irrelevant because I'm not asking for x4 pay, just to be paid what my job requires me to do which is more than 30k a year.
doctorace@reddit
I would say that skilled jobs are not by default more stressful. And though wages are compressed, you should consider lifetime earnings. Many people who work a minimum wage job will do so indefinitely, but skilled work has more opportunities to move up and make more. It’s not a definite one way or the other, but a generalisation that’s true more often than not.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
But my point is I"m looking for progression and although workload and responsibilities are higher in other roles the wage isnt matching up
Puzzleheaded-Bad-722@reddit
Massively. I was in the same boat as you OP and fancied a change. What I actually ended up doing was just dropping a day in my current role and keep my current benefits.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
I need more money not less though!
ydktbh@reddit
I had to fight to be on 35k, away from home all week, shattered so much that I barely have the energy to do anything on the two days off scheduled as my time. Fun
Competitive_Test6697@reddit
I think the issue is the amount of hours you need to work to match some of these "skilled" jobs.
A teacher could work 35 hours max. That's 5 hours outside work, 21 hours actually teaching kids face to face and the rest in school prep.
All for 55k and work 195 days a year.
The amount of overtime in a supermarket to get that would crush your soul. Especially Nightshift....still have nightmares.
RTMicro@reddit
You've been reading the Daily Mail too much if you actually think a teacher only works 35 hours a week
Sarah_RedMeeple@reddit
And ignoring that £55k is in no way a starting salary for a teacher, it's £32k.
Competitive_Test6697@reddit
Yeah, but in Scotland it peaks at 55k so its what can be earned as a standard teacher.
Then even more if you get promoted.
Sarah_RedMeeple@reddit
Using the peak amount after years of training and years of work, for a salaried worker who is expected to work as many hours as it takes to get the job done, to the base rate for an hourly paid worker, is not comparing like for like.
Sarah_RedMeeple@reddit
And re. hours - 50-59 hours a week worked by 40% of teachers: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/working-lives-of-teachers-and-leaders-wave-2/working-lives-of-teachers-and-leaders-wave-2-summary-report
I'm not even a teacher but have several very good friends who are, the crap peddled by popular media perpetuating the idea that teachers, nurses, doctors etc are all on easy street and we should resent them is incredibly damaging to society. If that was the case people would be flocking to do those jobs and rake in the cash.
Competitive_Test6697@reddit
Well in my 2 decades as a teacher and now Improvement Officer. I can tell you these numbers are purposely skewed so unions can get the salaries that were deserved and missed. 20% behind inflation. Asking teachers how much they work they always add hours so people don't roll their eyes at holidays.
Again, not to say it isn't a hard job or hours can't be crazy, or kids haven't gotten worse in last 4 years. But you CAN earn 55k and you CAN only work 35 hours. Those are facts not stats.
Langasaurus@reddit
Just not at the same time without significant experience, i.e. not comparable to the minimum wage discussion of OP's question.
Competitive_Test6697@reddit
Was just making the point that working 60 hour weeks to try and match a skilled profession feels crazy and would destroy my soul.
All the teaching discussion is after the fact with zero help for OP.
Drath101@reddit
How many years of shelf stacking do you do to make 55k?
Sarah_RedMeeple@reddit
How much of debt have people racked up in student loans training to do that?
I'm working class, I've stacked shelves, worked in retail and call centres. I'm my 30s I spent YEARS studying to get myself into a 'professional' role (not teaching but similar). I wouldn't change it for a moment but it takes a huge commitment in both time, energy and money to get there, and the energy required for the two jobs is very different (I never found myself catching up on my supermarket work at 10pm to hit a deadline, for example). You can't directly compare the two.
Of course as a thought experiment we could suggest that we all get a universal income for the same work. If we did that would you choose to stack shelves or to teach?
Drath101@reddit
Specifically teaching? I'd stack shelves because I don't like children and am not suited to teaching. But if we take my skilled office job which suits my skillset? You'd have to offer me 6 times what I made in retail management to even consider going back, and I already made more doing that than what I do now. It ruined my life for ten years. Constant phone calls, texts, no peace, getting woken up at 3am for problems in the store, the physical damage it did to my body that will never heal. Getting spat at, attacked, sworn at, constantly surrounded by shoplifting. Fuck all that
Sarah_RedMeeple@reddit
I mean completely agree, I hated working retail too. Though there's a fair few aspects of my current job that are really challenging too. But I do think a lot of people given the choice of years of training + student loan debt vs no entry requirements, for exactly the same wage, would choose the retail etc roles for the work/ life balance. I mean even within my team I know of people who chose to take a pay cut to reduce stress and improve work/ life balance, the small extra to be a manager wasn't worth it to them.
Competitive_Test6697@reddit
Scottish further education is free for up to 5 years. You would only be paying back any student loans you take out. I had 12k after 5 years.
Get the feeling you guys just have it harder down south with these things
SYSTEM-J@reddit
The OP asked "where is the incentive to upskill". You've just had the incentive explained to you.
Competitive_Test6697@reddit
Take probation salary at 36k then. (As of august 26)
Competitive_Test6697@reddit
"could work" could.
Having been one for 2 decades I can assure you it's possible
Becci92xo@reddit
Okay and teachers should get paid more than a supermarket worker
Competitive_Test6697@reddit
That wasnt my point. Point was OP was thinking about working OT in unskilled job to bump up salary to equal a skilled job.
My point was skilled (some) work way less for way more and doing all that OT in that environment wouldnt be the best thing for them.
Forum_Lurker42@reddit
You really think teachers only work 35 hours? That would be 8-4 weekdays only. Also, main pay scale tops out at 45k. Most will be on 35-40. Yes you get the holidays off, but most are working through that with all the admin that comes with teaching
Competitive_Test6697@reddit
Scotland wage scale for main grade teacher.
Very few work through holidays. I guarantee that. Possibly your probation year and a few after that. Once you know what you're doing, it's much easier.
Not that it's easy or always 35 hours. It's just that you can if you want.
And it's 9 till 3 for primary Secondary it's 9 till 3:45ish (less class contact)
Astonednerd@reddit
Very few teachers are going to be earning 55k on 35 hours a week. Outside london you have to be in some sort of leadership role or getting an SEN bonus to get to 55k. Both of those would require extra hours above the basic teaching and lesson prep.
Even in london you'd need to be near the top of the upper pay scale, which would take years to reach and probably put you as one of the most senior teachers in a given department outside the head of department.
Competitive_Test6697@reddit
Sorry, was jumping the gun. By August 26 it'll be almost 55k. In Scotland. With a working time agreement of 35 hours.
I'm head office these days so didn't know when it changed.
Astonednerd@reddit
Ah I guess Scotland teacher salaries are higher as well, but with the burden of higher tax rates than their english counterparts
Due-Presentation4344@reddit
The OPs question is what her the gap between skilled and non skilled workers is decreasing.
The answer is yes, regardless of hours worked.
BronnOP@reddit
Yes, however, there’s a reason skilled people aren’t flocking to those jobs - it’s not an easier life. In fact, it’s disgusting what they get away with.
Take supermarket work for example, which typically pays slightly more than minimum wage. At the Co-Coop, workers were “forced” to have a meeting with their store manager to discuss their availability outside of work. If you didn’t have a good excuse for being busy such as physically being at college or university, taking care of children or something medically related - they said they could now call you up for overtime or shift cover whenever they liked because you’d officially given them your availability.
They also offered staff a wage rise, which their staff accepted as a majority. Buried into this ~30p wage rise was the stipulation that bank holidays would be seen as normal day and no longer a holiday. If your shift fell on a bank holiday Monday - you were now working it. Oh and as part of that same wage rise they took away double pay and triple pay, even on Boxing Day and New Year’s Day.
Your shifts can be anywhere between 6am-10pm and if the store alarm won’t set on a closing shift, you’re expected to stay until a security guard arrives.
I’m sure plenty of other places are even worse.
abdullaahr7@reddit
Employers pay a higher minimum wage because they're legally required to now.
Why would they give Dave from accounts a raise when they don't have to
Rossco1874@reddit
I think there has to be a limit on both minimum wage and average wage for skilled jobs but I don't know how this is achieved especially now as wage increases are expected. I went 8 years without a pay increase and gradually minimum wage caught up with the wage.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit
The definition of skilled role is changing!
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
One of my friends is working as a labourer 12 hour shifts, at weekends if he does overtime he gets double time. As he has no student loans and doesnt pay into a pension hes taking home far more than me. He admits his job is easy but boring as a lot if the time hes sitting around waiting. It has left me a bit resentful!
KrytenLister@reddit
Of his job is so easy and the take home is “far more”, why aren’t you doing it?
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
I want to use my brain in my role that I've invested time and education in. I'm just saying I'm confused why jobs demanding skills and extensive experience are barely paying above minimum wage.
KrytenLister@reddit
If the tile you’re talking about required rare skills, companies would have to pay more for them.
Clearly they can fill the position at the correct level without any issue.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
I'm not saying the skills are rare but they take time. E.g. asking for 5 years experience plus degree and masters preferred. Well thats already at least 8-10 years of my time plus student loans compared to walking into a factory at ground zero.
KrytenLister@reddit
Sure, but thousands of other people went the same route and put in the same time, so companies have their pick.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
I'm not looking down my nose at anyone? I'm glad the minimum wage has increased. But it seems crazy that years of education and experience counts for so little.
KrytenLister@reddit
If that’s the case, then I apologise for misunderstanding.
Your post reads to me like think you are better than them simply because you chose to go the route you chose. That using your brain instead of breaking your body over a career should highlight you as special by comparison.
I’m simply saying if that were the case, you’d be able to demand the sort of salary you expect.
A whole generation was told uni is the best way to make a fortune. It means there are huge numbers of people in your situation with the same skillset you have, so companies don’t have to pay more. They’re valuing those skills at the rate they can pay based on how common they are to find.
When you’re getting 50 qualified applicants for every vacancy, you don’t have to increase the salary.
mattcannon2@reddit
Not paying into a pension is not exactly something worth celebrating...
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
But he lives in a council house and will get his rent paid for him. With state pension and benefits he will be fine. Its not worth him paying into one he says.
rogeroutmal@reddit
Yeah but in 50 years time he’ll still be in a council house, living off benefits and having a shit life (probably). You have the option of career growth.
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
Im trying for career growth but my point is the more I invest my time into it I'm currently not reaping the rewards..
rogeroutmal@reddit
How old are you? When do you expect to see a “return”?
Fluffy_Ad2274@reddit
If the state pension exists. But why isn't his employer putting him in their pension scheme?
wanderingunicorn1@reddit (OP)
He opted out as he wants to be eligible for pension credits and would rather have the cash now
Fluffy_Ad2274@reddit
They really do walk amongst us, huh?
Becci92xo@reddit
This may be one of the dumbest things ive read in a while
vipros42@reddit
That's frankly fucking dim. The state pension is fuck all so if he gets used to earning even a half decent wage then he will come crashing down later. Particularly when his body is fucked in his mid 30s from working 12 hour days as a labourer.
Call me crazy but I want to have a comfortable retirement free from money stress so I'm pumping as much into my pension as I can
Sundaecide@reddit
Frankly, he is wrong.
Circumstances change, life happens, and having zero plan for the future is a sure fire way to invite trouble- especially in physical jobs where peoples bodies can and do give up on them readily.
A life on benefits, for the most part, is one of squeeking by.
cheatingwithsumo@reddit
You're jealous of 12 hour shifts and no pension?
Wild.
I have a mate that works in a factory, earning more than me as a part qualified accountant. Good for him! But I'm happy not to have the early shift, and it's nice to know I have a good future earning potential.
UberMcWolf@reddit
If he doesn't pay into a pension, this will come back to bite him in the future.
AirconGuyUK@reddit
Yes and it will have some pretty unintended and negative impacts.
Any_Preference_4147@reddit
I take home anywhere between £2300 and £2500 a month after deductions. My only qualification is an NVQ level 2 which is mandatory in health/social care anyway.
I am on par or earn slightly more than my friends who have degrees, but I do work a lot of overtime to get the hours in.
Longjumping_Ant4453@reddit
The working week is only 35 hours now, that is what the gov use for benefits
WhatsTheStoryMG_1995@reddit
Yes it’s a joke
Drath101@reddit
Yeah, but there's tons of other benefits to most skilled roles, much better progression opportunities financially, and you actually get the full time hours whereas getting 40 hours (guaranteed in a way you can actually use to get a mortgage or rent, rather than as overtime) in alot of unskilled roles is unlikely
cheandbis@reddit
Plus other benefits (usually) such as better holiday entitlement, better pension contributions etc. You need to look at the total package.
In my place, as an example (I admit, we're probably above average here mind) everyone (at a minimum) gets free private health, free optical/dental cover, a very generous pension contribution, 25 days + BH leave, 6 months income protection for sickness, 6 x death in service. None of this helps pay the bills so you need to weigh up whether it's worth it but it can't be ignored either.
I agree with the OP that it's a poor state of affairs when the gap between skilled and unskilled pay is so low but give me an office job earning a couple of £k more over a retail or warehouse type role any day of the week.
Sarah_RedMeeple@reddit
Definitely feels like it. I work in a skilled role in education where pay rises have been far below inflation for years. I manage people yet I can't afford to buy my own home (and nor can any other of my single colleagues, only the partnered ones).
JaffaTheOrange@reddit
Yes. Also the gap between working and benefits has been eroded as well.
You can sit on your arse with 3 kids and pull more than someone on 80k
Boy_JC@reddit
This sounds a bit stretched, surely not?
SeaIntelligent4504@reddit
I think it's more that in particular circumstances, they can end up benefitting where those benefits would cost someone else £80k. Eg adding up free school lunches, larger housing benefit to house their family. It's not that they get £80k in their pocket. Someone able to work without kids will get very little and be expected to be applying for work, get sanctions etc.
People forget also that the NHS (among other things) is a benefit - we don't individually pay for doctors appointments or treatment that could easily run into hundreds of thousands if it's something serious. Private doctors cost £200+ an hour, so every time we see the GP, we are benefitting from the system by not having to pay that.
Unlikely-Jicama4176@reddit
They won't be receiving more than £80k but if they are getting subsidised housing, council tax, utilities bills, free prescriptions, school meals child benefit (it starts being withdrawn when you earn over c£52) etc all the things someone on £80k has to pay for in full they might wind up with more disposable cash. If your earning over £80k you're likely to be paying off student loans and my old firm insisted your car was less than 5 years old and were mandating for EVs to qualify for travel allowance (and we were nowhere near £80k) so there are likely expenses that are needed rather than luxuries e.g. train season tickets for two working parents.
THATSMrPOTATOH3AD@reddit
I know someone that works part time and has two kids, one with basic special needs. Single mum, pulling in £50k with the benefits included.... When gloating about it, saying that £4000 a month isn't really that much these days.... She actually bought a house in the end which I find absolutely ridiculous. On the other end of the spectrum, another friend has a fully non verbal autistic daughter and in my opinion, she doesn't get enough assistance!
I think the government would save a fortune if they went in and reassessed all these people on benefits. It would cut the cash flow of lazy twats and better the lives of those that actually need it.
Astonednerd@reddit
Its probably possible, but will require all sorts of assumptions around disability for parents and/or children and probably a hefty london based housing allowance.
Due-Presentation4344@reddit
I tried to claim the emergency oil allowance as prices are north of £750 for 500 litres (more twice the usual price).
I was basically laughed at when I told them I earn £60k a year. There benefits system really needs a shake up and change the allowances to be based on households not individuals.
I’m at the point I don’t even want to earn more as I’ll lose child allowance. My wife’s been made redundant after 14 years and there’s nothing out there as she has to work specific hours due to the needs of my youngest child.
Middle class are being totally screwed by this government.
OilAdministrative197@reddit
100% cant.
Nice_Back_9977@reddit
Even if that were true, still not worth having to deal with 3 kids every day for 20 odd years!
smackdealer1@reddit
Meh most of those roles aren't higher pressure though. You do less the higher up the chain you go until your jop is just accountability to some kind of board of people.
The problem you are running into is that those skills you think are rarely gained are actually super common. If they weren't those jobs would pay better.
Also economic migrants have the same experience and skills as you but are willing to work for those low wages.
Nothing but a country of middle managers!
Effective_Topic_4728@reddit
The minimum wage has increased hugely in the last few years yet other salaries have increased considerably less. There are skilled and semi skilled jobs these days that don't pay much more than minimum. Today, minimum wage is £12:71, in 2019, it was £8.21.
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