When does "kids being kids" cross into something more concerning?
Posted by butters786@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 133 comments
I’m on a family trip at Butlin’s and thinking about the nature of kid behaviour and where the lines are.
There have been a couple of incidents over the last few days, and in both cases there were no parents anywhere around.
In one, my son (younger, on his own for a moment) had two older kids come and sit next to him on a ledge, about 5 metres of empty ledge and the sat right next to him. They kept copying/mirroring him even after he asked them to stop. It sounds minor, but they kept going and laughing until he got really upset and came over to us in tears.
In another, I watched two kids (maybe 9–10) on the dodgems very deliberately target a younger asian girl who was on her own, going out of their way to repeatedly crash into her while ignoring everyone else. It didn’t feel random and was intentional and she was crying after a while of this but they continued. Again no parents in sight.
What struck me in both situations wasn’t just kids being shits, it was the lack of any pause when the other child was clearly uncomfortable or vulnerable, especially when the vulnerable child is isolated.
I’m not trying to label these kids or the examples as anything extreme, but it did make me reflect on how, even as a kid, I feel like there was some instinct to back off if someone was clearly upset, vulnerable or alone.
So I guess my question is: Is there a point where repeated targeting of someone vulnerable signals something darker just kids being kids?
Is this just normal boundary-pushing and poor socialisation? Or are there situations where the lack of empathy itself becomes the thing to pay attention to?
catsnstuff17@reddit
You know how some adults are just unpleasant people? Bullies, mean sense of humour/just generally pricks? Well, I don't think those adults were nice children.
That maybe sounds like a mean thing to say because obviously kids need to learn about boundaries and acceptable behaviour, so generally these mean kids have been utterly failed by their parents. However, I do think that some people have it in their nature to be, shall we say, less kind than others (and vice versa).
I see it in my son's schoolmates - some of them are just lovely kids, which isn't to say that they don't ever do anything naughty or a bit mean - of course they do, they're kids and they push boundaries. But some kids definitely have a bit of a darkness to them - whether it's nurture or nature, I don't know because I don't know their situations, but unfortunately it is there. I always tell my son (and my daughter but she's very young so doesn't have friends yet) that the most important thing is to be kind to everyone. I suspect that not every kid gets that message, sadly.
Uhura-hoop@reddit
Yes this is true. I remember seeing kids playing right from nursery age and identifying which ones I wanted my child to not spend too much time with (because of their bullying or destructive behaviour) and I’m sad to say, the ones I was wary of were still the ones I didn’t like years and years later. They hadn’t changed much at all. The indicators of personality were there at a very young age.
The only exception to this is when the chief girl-bully in the class left, and one of the previously neutral girls stepped up into the role and became the chief girl-bully herself. It was like there was a power vacuum.
Child group dynamics is fascinating.
I will say though, people CAN and sometimes DO change. And sometimes being a dildo isn’t the full story- if there’s a crappy home life/trauma that will be reflected in behaviour sometimes.
Sad-Nectarine-7855@reddit
I am genuinely terrified my youngest nephew will grow into a horrible person, he's genuinely so mean to everyone no matter what tatic or 'treatment' he's received.
Uhura-hoop@reddit
I hope you’re wrong 🫣 as I said, people CAN change. He has to want to though. Is his behaviour a cry for help do you think? Or attention?
Sad-Nectarine-7855@reddit
No idea, there are times it's easily attributed to attention seeking, other times he could be front and centre of attention and will still choose to kick the cat or grab his sister by the genitals.
Uhura-hoop@reddit
Well he’s in for a very lonely miserable life if he continues to treat everyone badly. That’s its own consequence.
PrognosticateProfit@reddit
Kids are weird. My son is 3 and at home, and amongst family, he is a major bully and some would consider him to have a darkness in him, but take him out in public, nursery, parties anything where he interacts with other kids he is the most sincere and empathetic I've ever seen a toddler. He just lets out his demons when he's in his safe space.
I think all kids have that darkness, but they only let it out where they feel safe. If you coddle a kid to the point where every situation feels safe because they think they are the main character, then that darkness will come out everywhere too
Current_Fly9337@reddit
Sounds bad to say but I couldn’t stand a little girl in my sons nursery. She just had total bossy mean girl energy and her mother was much the same.
They’re teens now and go to different schools but I seen her in a local shop recently telling some younger girls to steal things. They’re not poor, he ma has just created an entitled little so and so.
sin0shine0@reddit
Same, a boy targets my son and I've had it out with his mum so many times, she just says 'my son said he didn't do it'. I've even had the police involved but he still says, it wasn't me. 🤷 His mum said she didn't appreciate the accusations. But his mum is a bully herself. Before the bullying started she took my son and another boy out with her son for lunch, asked the boys what they wanted, then placed the order and said I'll just pay for these two, not my son. Fair enough you don't have to pay for my child, but it was the way she singled him out in that moment. I think she and her son are jealous of my son as my son has won awards for the sports they both play and her son hasn't won anything because he's not that good. She was into sports herself and won awards so I think they're both jealous and she encourages her son to target mine. I don't understand the complex but it's real, there are weird parents out there!!
Current_Fly9337@reddit
Yeah these people create awful kids. I remember the teacher coming out and blowing the whistle, which meant everyone had to line up. Mean girl was playing and the mother told her she could continue and didn’t have to line up with the other kids. I could see the teacher thinking ‘that’s why she’s a little twat!’
WillowCreekWanderer@reddit
Friend of mine is a primary teacher, and she says that the parents often have significantly worse attitudes than their kids!
sin0shine0@reddit
Do the parents not think they're being weird? I mean obviously not, myself I can't understand it. It's really not difficult at all to be 'normal'. My son had an outburst at school and got in trouble off the teacher, I listened to what happened and told him since he put himself in that situation, I wasn't going to back him up and he will have to deal with the consequences himself. He wasn't happy but at the same time that's how you learn. Once he smashed his bike helmet in a rage and I refused to buy him a new one because it broke, I said well if you want to ride your bike now you'll have to use your pocket money to replace the item you damaged 🤷 It's really infuriating that these people just live amongst us and won't hold their children accountable. They're going to grow up thinking the world owes them and everything in life isn't their fault.
Current_Fly9337@reddit
Totally, I think they actually believe they’re doing their kids a favour by treating them like the world revolves around them. I can tell in the workplace who was mollycoddled as a kid. Those who are entitled and take time off for piss poor reasons, definitely raised by those type of people.
sin0shine0@reddit
Haha yes the workplace babies!! 😂😂 I know exactly what you mean. One person phoned in 'sick' because they had an argument with their girlfriend and weren't feeling it today. REALLY!??
Current_Fly9337@reddit
My ex colleague left us in the shit for a deadline because his 15 year old son hurt his leg at school (just hurt not broken or anything). Sound, go pick him up and then leave him at home with a sandwich and his Xbox controller and get your arse back to work. Nope, needed to take the rest of the day in case he needed anything.
His son is going to be as pathetic as him.
sin0shine0@reddit
WHAT!? I remember being 10 years old throwing up, and my parents left me on the sofa for the day with a sick bowl, then went to work 🙈 I remember feeling awful but more than capable of getting myself some water and watching TV with my bowl till they came home. But 15!??? Really!?? The more I read the more I eye roll 🙄
SuzLouA@reddit
See, this is what gets me as well. I hope you take this the way I intend it, but what you’ve just described isn’t good parenting, it’s just parenting! It’s just being normal! Do you get what I mean? Not saying for a second you’re not a good parent, but just that that should be the norm - that we recognise we are raising future adults, and we want those adults to not be cunts. (Not least because we’ve got to interact with them for the rest of our lives, it would be nice if they were pleasant to be around!!)
And tbf, I think in the majority of households it is the case that parents are doing that, because by and large, most kids range from neutral (which is usually just nice but shy) to lovely. When I think of my son’s class of 28 kids, there’s only one or two that I’m not a massive fan of, the rest range from “seem nice enough but I don’t really know them because they’re not close friends with my kid” to “this kid has been to my house and I was sorry to see them go because they were a joy to host”.
I really don’t get the ones who are just like, my kid is too special for rules - isn’t it all just coming back on you as the person who has to deal with them??
catsnstuff17@reddit
Totally agree, especially with your last point. I don't think anyone is a lost cause, but unfortunately the dark sides of our personalities (and we all have dark sides to various extents, of course!) can be exacerbated by circumstance.
BriefSpray3765@reddit
I agree with this, and actually spoke with my middle brother about this last night.
I’m the youngest of 3 sons. 2 years between me and middle brother and 4 years between oldest brother. Very close in age but all very different in personality.
My middle brother has always been aggressive and angry. Always easily triggered. One of my earliest memories i must of been about 5. I was playing a board game with him and something happened and I swiped the board. He responded by jumping up and down on my chest screaming.
That was just one example out of many.
What I’m trying to say. My middle brother who I love dearly has always been an angry troubled child and now man.
It wasn’t a product of childhood. He was just born like that
catsnstuff17@reddit
I actually think that in the nature vs nurture argument, nature is like, 90% of our personalities. My husband and I both agree that our children were just 100% born with their personalities. Now, they are still very young (4 and 1) so no doubt will change a lot over the years but fundamentally their baseline personalities have been the same since the days they were born. And they are both totally different to each other. It's fascinating.
Responsible-Hat-679@reddit
i agree with this and you see it so clearly in other species too - last year a friend had a litter of puppies that i spent time with from the day they were born and their different personalities were soooo apparent so early on before any nurture or environmental factors could have come into play - i found it fascinating.
catsnstuff17@reddit
Yes! That's so true. I did a zookeeper for the day experience in London Zoo and they tag the penguins according to personality so you know which ones to avoid - some are super friendly and lovely, others are simply wrong 'uns 🤣
Quelly0@reddit
Mine are older and I've reached a similar conclusion.
cherry-care-bear@reddit
IMO, what's actually sad is that the lack of lessons or nurture or whatever in some kids gets passed along to the stage where it becomes everybody else's problem.
And then you can't act--or get the law or whatnot--until 'after' some terrible thing has happened.
There have got to be better ways.
Signal-Ad2674@reddit
Perfect answer. My kids are now 19/20. We used to run their cubs and beaver groups when they were much younger. You could just see some kids were thoroughly mean, some high spirited, some dreamers, some dawdlers, some sharp as a tack.
As they got older, I noticed very few changed. They learnt to make better, but their nature was pretty much consistent.
I do believe in both nature and nurture. Those kids that were well behaved had great parents, strong boundaries, clear role models. And those off the rails..well..less so.
Now they are grown up, the ones who are thriving were doing so at cubs 10 years ago. The ones going off the rails..now in serious trouble or in the way to it. It’s sad really.
MD564@reddit
Yeah I see it as a teacher. Sometimes it's circumstantial (like neglect, family member dying or abused at home), but I have come across children who are genuinely very mean, to the point where they don't have any real friends just other kids who are scared of them. The worst ones are the ones with parents who do the whole "little Timmy can do no wrong" routine.
faroffland@reddit
My cousin was like this as a kid. Ended up with an adult diagnosis of borderline personality disorder but she is a genuine sociopath/narcissist. Not in the way that gets bandied about these days but very seriously in the clinical sense - she genuinely does not have the capacity for empathy.
No abuse happened, she had an extremely privileged middle-class upbringing, she was just born absolutely fucked up. My sister and I flagged it as children time and time again to be ignored by our family - they only started to admit it once she became a legitimate alcoholic and started actively abusing her parents.
Some highlights over the years:
When I was 15 my stepmum died tragically from a brain tumour. She was given 6 months and died in 5. It was extremely traumatic, she died in a hospital bed in our living room. The week she passed away my then 12yo cousin told me, ‘I wish someone /I/ was close to would die.’
When I was on a year abroad at university, she messaged me on Facebook saying she was going to kill herself. She had had serious attempts before. I didn’t have international calling so I had to beg a university office to allow me to try and contact my family. Eventually I managed to. Turns out she was at home, on her computer, absolutely fine - she just decided she wanted some attention. At 19yo.
Has abused her parents for years and years. Has claimed literally everyone under the sun has abused her at one time or another. One example was when she said her dad was abusing her and texted her mum to ‘tell dad to stop sending her inappropriate (re: sexual) texts’. We were literally sat in the room with them both when it was happening and he hadn’t sent her a thing, didn’t even have his phone out. Another time during a phase of ‘not speaking’ to her parents, she out of the blue posted her mum a book about narcissistic parents.
When her dad had cancer, claimed he was being ‘so annoying and making it all about him’.
They are just 4 off the top of my head but I have hundreds of stories, all as awful as these. She claims abuse from everyone but is the most abusive person I’ve ever met. I don’t think I’ve ever seen her show a moment of true empathy in her whole life, she was like this as a child, it just got passed off as ‘being a kid’.
Some kids are just fucked up people for no reason unfortunately.
CharmingSwing1366@reddit
yup, there’s a difference between ‘cheeky’ and intentionally mean/rude
smackdealer1@reddit
Every psychopath was once a child after all
Sad-Nectarine-7855@reddit
So through poor luck, I'm surrounded by family on both sides who are extremely stupid, and thus have produced a lot of children we all pay for.
What I see thats bizarre, is for the most part, the ones who have the worst parents, violent aggressive types are actually the nicest, sweetest children (ages 3 to 17) who were lovely children right from the get go.
Where as the nicer, placid parents, who aren't horrible humans, stable relationships stable if low paying jobs have a 50/50 mix of decently behaving, lovely articulate and intelligent girls, but the worst of the worst boys who despite every real effort contuine to grow into terrible people. One I've already said will not step foot in my house when he's older.
Badger_1066@reddit
Shit like this makes me mad.
As a father myself - watch your fucking kids. For both their benefit and the benefit of others. Be a parent ffs.
butters786@reddit (OP)
I've seen a handful of fathers of these sorts of kids they've had their hands full unfortunately, carrying crates of strongbow
Sad-Nectarine-7855@reddit
Thats extremely offensive.
It's carling usually.
JeevestheGinger@reddit
😆
Jayatthemoment@reddit
A bit of both. Like adults, a lot of kids are below average intelligence. Throw into this the fact that their brains are very undeveloped and they don’t always yet feel empathy or understand social behaviour and they are less supervised and away from their normal boundaries when on holiday and you’re going to get some gross behaviour. Kids ARE dark. They hurt animals, bully eachother, steal, lie, etc. Many grow out of it, either by evolution or revolution.
Sad-Nectarine-7855@reddit
Emotional intelligence is a dying thing.
I live in an area where the percentage of adults with qualifications comes in at around 17%, and it shows in how people talk, present themselves, interact with one another and treat both THEIR homes and things and other people's homes and things.
Specific_Club_7640@reddit
Kids aren't normally 'dark'. Most are very happy, innocent & kind. Bad behaviour is learnt by their role models, i.e., their parental guardians. If parents aren't able to fully care for their children, it can cause odd destructive behaviours in their children.
Jayatthemoment@reddit
Fair enough — I understand that viewpoint. I’m a PGCE course leader and spend time with teaching trainees and go into placement schools. I am probably biased because see the problems more than most. I also have a longitudinal view, being in my fifties.
My own teenagers are sweet and kind, as are many of the other kids I know. You can’t argue that they aren’t impulsive and don’t absorb a lot of their attitudes from the people around them, and the U.K., well, it ain’t at it’s cultural high point now.
Specific_Club_7640@reddit
I, too, am in my 50s & work in yearly years care. I'm sure by the time the kids end in your care, I'm sure they maybe dark. However, it's nearly, but not always nurture, that made them.
Jayatthemoment@reddit
Average age of my ‘kids’ is about 28, with career-changing ‘quality of life’ applicants for teaching being way up atm! Obviously—but a ‘Wow! Does evil exist?! Nature or nurture?!’ discussion ain’t on my to do list for today so you’ll excuse if I just don’t.
pajamakitten@reddit
You are not wrong, however that does not discount the fact that some children are 'dark' for no real reason. It might not be a lot but you do not have to look hard to find one either.
Sophie_Blitz_123@reddit
Eh.
True in some instances. But things like the described scenarios aren't innately "learned behaviour". The first example particularly - kids often find it funny to copy another child, for some reason. Not stopping when he's getting upset is in large part because their empathy isn't developed. Some of this develops on its own, some of it needs to be actively taught.
ignoranceandapathy42@reddit
How would you know? Have you systematically studied children away from parents and with parents? It's a known theological debate called natalism, it doesn't have proof yet. What you've stated as fact may be true in your experience but not in reality. I myself have known many children of good upstanding people inexplicably be monstrous. Under your assumed view those children were taught to do what they did.
butters786@reddit (OP)
This is whats been bouncing around my mind, im sure when I was younger there were always those intense kids, the ones that cruelly throw stones at cats or pigeons etc. Just the lack of empathy and targeting of isolated vulnerable victims was disturbing to see, maybe it is just shitty kids pushing boundaries, where normally a present responsible adult would rein them back
Jayatthemoment@reddit
A lot of kids just don’t have that, and it can get worse when they fall into other stresses such as addiction or poverty. A kid with ‘tendencies’ who has good teachers, parents, parents’ friends, role models, people who listen to them and value them and show them possibilities (‘you don’t have to beat others down to compete for resources— you could do this, or that …’), then they develop. Others don’t.
mitfordsister@reddit
Those with flagged Aces… I suppose there are always exceptions though?
mitfordsister@reddit
I taught long term in a PRU and having witnessed what neglect, poverty, mental health issues, death in a family does to a child. It means no hope for some..Having access to help, support and even knowing where to get it and whose door to knock down makes all the difference. It’s heartbreaking.
Pattatilla@reddit
All children are empathetic. Most to others, some just to themselves.
Not all children hurt animals and many that do develop into adults the hurt humans. It is a massive red flag as an educator or psychologist when a parent tells you that. Something isn't right developmentally and cannot be explained away.
Source: SEND Specialist Consultant worked with young offenders and those about to enter prison system.
TeaPlenty3782@reddit
Some children are sadly natural bullies and grow up into nasty adults, the kind of people who will get into fights if someone accidentally spills their pint.
Some children have ACES (adverse childhood experiences) which is a marker for trauma and mental illness as an adult. Some will witness domestic violence, have familial mental illness or grow up in extreme poverty, some have no good role models to keep their behaviour in check.
Other children might have emotional and conduct issues without ACES but aren’t given the support from their parents to change their way of thinking.
I will say what no one has said, that Butlins is a microcosm of a particular kind of family, often the lower socio economic bracket. I would hazard a guess that children on holiday at Butlins are worse behaved than children on holiday in the Cotswolds for example!
When my kids were really little we used to go to those Parkdean/Haven English resorts as it was too much hassle to go abroad. We stopped going as we saw families shout and swear at their kids, young kids walking around alone, toddlers wandering around in nappies drinking cans of coke, parents just pissed at the bar ignoring their kids for the whole day. The parents seem to just leave the kids to run feral and although I work with a lot of families in difficult situations, it’s not relaxing to want to call social services on your holiday!
So I think it’s similar for a Butlins holiday, not all kids are that horrible.
Physical-Cup665@reddit
I recently found out about ACEs, and realised everyone I knew growing up is at least a 7-10 score. It's fascinatingly horrible. Also the difference between those who turn it inward to those who turn it outward.
faroffland@reddit
In terms of people turning it inwards vs outwards - you may also be interested to look into the theory of ‘window of tolerance’ related to trauma.
Basically everyone has a ‘window of tolerance’ where you are able to process bad things happening. But if you’re pushed outside that window - so often with ACEs or other traumatic incidents - you either go into hyperarousal or hypoarousal. Hyper- is basically pushing it outwards - so people who completely lose their shit, have anger management issues, are overwhelmed, feel constantly ‘on high alert’, PTSD fight or flight responses etc. Whereas hypo- is where people direct it inwards - so depression, episodes of dissociation, withdrawing, feeling numb/out of body etc.
Anecdotally my sister and I have high ACE scores and both have severe mood/trauma disorders. But we are complete opposites in how it manifests. Before therapy my sister had severe anger problems, meltdowns, hypervigelence. I had extreme periods of dissociation, self-harm, numbness, depersonalisation etc.
I finally had NHS trauma therapy last year where this was all explained and I was like… holy shit that is me and my sister to a T. It was life changing for someone to explain what I’d experienced my whole life in such detail. Trauma is wild, it leads to completely different reactions in people who share the same experiences.
Physical-Cup665@reddit
That is so fascinating! Me and my husband were talking about that, he's an 8 and I'm a 10 and we're both very "inward" people, whereas both his sister and mine are ready to fight anyone at the drop of a hat.
faroffland@reddit
Sounds exactly like me and my sister! I was told for years I just had depression and whilst I absolutely have a severe mood disorder, it was my CPN who finally flagged a lot of it was related to childhood trauma/ACEs and referred me for trauma-informed therapy on the NHS. When my therapist explained hypo-arousal vs hyper-arousal it was literally like someone was explaining what me and my sister had experienced and never had an explanation for our whole lives. I bet if you read into it you’ll find it makes a lot of sense for you/your husband vs your siblings.
blah_bitty_blah@reddit
My older sister used to do this to me growing up, my parents would accept me crying and comfort me, but rarely told her off as it usually just lead to more bad behaviour and a punishment for me from her. As an adult, she is a sociopath and my dad has openly admitted he didnt know how to handle her as a child because she was just so difficult, unfortunately it had a negative effect on my mental health growing up and I still struggle to regulate my emotions without the help of therapy and a good amount of alone time. Parents need to do more and take accountability for their kids.
CheesecakeGlobal277@reddit
Shall I be honest ? I think your father should have been more firm with your older sister because he's her father and chose to have her at the end of the day.
Not to be blunt or rude, but I just think the fact that she turned out to be the way she did as became older does show how a lack of accountability does has significant consequences, in the future. I say this as someone that regularly used to get reprimanded when I did something wrong as a child and I think I have turned out to be a decent adult.
However, if it was the case that my parents never held my accountable, I definitely would have fallen into the wrong crowd and made very questionable decisions.
Amarita_Sen@reddit
Even if the sister's behaviour wouldn't have changed, there would be value in telling the sister off anyway. Standing up for your kid shows them they are worth standing up for, even if it's ineffective
Background_Bug1102@reddit
I really like this - “Standing up for your kids shows them they are worth standing up for, even if it’s ineffective”. Thank you. That’s what gives folk like me the strength to keep on advocating for our kids.
blah_bitty_blah@reddit
I agree with this. I think all people are wired differently, but if you never develop true empathy - telling the offending child off makes little difference to THEIR accountability, but it shows the other child that they are valued and that there isn't a place for being treated badly. When you realise that can affect future relationships, its hard to understand why someone wouldn't stand up for their child, even if it is their other child who is the bully.
Various-Flower510@reddit
My older sister also used to relentlessly target me growing up. And the same was done by my parents. Rather than tell her to stop upsetting me, i was told ‘dont be a clype’ like fs ok fine then. So now i dont tell anyone when anythings up cuz, well, i dont wanna be a clype! I dunno if shes a sociopath but shes defo still a massive butthole (since i cant put any words stronger than that lol) and theres a terrible vindictive nature about her
Iforgotmypassword126@reddit
God I couldn’t imagine living with my bully, that must have been so tough.
Background_Bug1102@reddit
My lad is 11. He has autism and doesn’t really understand social norms. He is an absolute target for the school bullies and it breaks my heart. I’m trying to teach him that these people are “pushing his buttons” but he has the power over whether his “button” gets activated or not. There is one particular child who is just abhorrent to him and who has verbally and physically assaulted him and events of a more “adult” nature (police were involved). This child has displayed callous and violent behaviour since the age of three and has only got worse as the years have gone on, despite the efforts of the school. I’m not joking when I say I fully expect this individual to be in prison by 20 - he’s not very bright, he’ll get himself caught, but he’s a wrong un.
derekfishfinger@reddit
We had the holiday from hell once (thanks Pontins) and at the start checkin was delayed. People were being shepherded to the pub to wait so it was starting to get full. 2 kids had been there early 'building a fort'. To do this they had cordoned off part of the room with a load of the stools and chairs. Their parents were at the other end of the room. Some other kid tried to get a chair to sit on and they shouted to their parents across the pub that the kid was taking their fort. The parents shouted back 'if anyone tries to take your things you hit them'. Mostly this behaviour is learned/empowered through the parents. Our kids were sensible enough to go and play in the kids play area (that you had to walk through the smoking area to get to for some bizarre but very Pontins reason).
thewaifandstray@reddit
I need to stop doom scrolling and sleep, but I have spent years studying social class and educational attainment. Nature vs. nurture was a huge debate that came up again and again. I will come back to this when it's not the witching hour!
Minxy_T@reddit
Imo any child, that doesn’t have special needs, and is older than 5/6 that ignores clear boundaries are a problem. We should be teaching our kids that no means no from the get go.
Overall_Dream_3195@reddit
Kids with special needs can be bullies.
BitGreedy@reddit
Ugh so many little brats and their scratty parents at Butlins. One little darling stole my friend's tickets from under her.
auntie_eggma@reddit
Parents are utterly abdicating any responsibility. 🤷🏻♀️
RainbowPenguin1000@reddit
Want any fries with that huge generalisation?
auntie_eggma@reddit
Parent. Who. Are. Producing. The. Children. Who. Don't. Behave.
RainbowPenguin1000@reddit
Parents*
If you put that much effort in to your original comment with an extra word or two this whole thread wouldn’t be needed.
auntie_eggma@reddit
If you put that much effort into maintaining a grasp on context, you wouldn't be confused.
Ok_Adhesiveness_8637@reddit
Seems like you were on of the bad kids with the way you are acting right now.
Please control your emotions, even my 8 year old can do that.
auntie_eggma@reddit
... Sorry, what emotions do you think I'm overcome with, exactly? 😂
RainbowPenguin1000@reddit
Why are you swearing?
Interesting you mentioned context as you missed the whole point of OPs post.
Their specific question at the bottom is around children not showing empathy and when this is concerning or just boundary pushing behaviour of kids being kids.
“Parents abdicating responsibility” isn’t answering OPs question at all.
auntie_eggma@reddit
Because I'm an adult and it's part of my everyday lexicon. Why are you policing language like a primary school teacher?
Parents should be teaching their children empathy. When they do not, it is an example of parents abdicating their duty. Clear enough now or is your comprehension frozen with your linguistic sensibilities?
Badger_1066@reddit
Use your head. They're clearly talking about the incidents in the post and not referring to all parents.
auntie_eggma@reddit
Parent. Who. Are. Producing. The. Children. Who. Don't. Behave.
RainbowPenguin1000@reddit
Perhaps, but we don’t know for sure because of the way they worded it.
I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS@reddit
I think those incidents happening in the first place is an example of 'kids being kids'. The fact that no parent stepped in to educate the kids on what isn't acceptable behaviour is the problem.
mumwifealcoholic@reddit
This is why we won’t go back to Butlins. There were loads of terribly behaved kids and drunk adults.
It’s down to bad parents, as so much of our problems are.
Due_Consequence5085@reddit
Yes kids can be bullies.
That being said, as an adult observing what is happening, STEP IN. Just because it isn’t your child doesn’t mean you can’t give them a telling off when the are being little shits.
CheesecakeGlobal277@reddit
The issue is with the concept of "kids being kids". Having worked as a teacher in some capacity, you realise very quickly that kids are very smart and pick up on adult behaviours. When adults don't really enforce rules or hold them accountable, they can always turn around and say but "I'm a kid!" if they know it is wrong. Who is to question them on that front of being a kid because they aren't actually wrong.
As a society, we just need to start moving away from this whole narrative of kids being kids, because this is why some adults turn out the way they do. Nobody ever told them off and so therefore they think it is okay to treat others anyhow ! Fine, you can hold them accountable as adults, but they will never really change because their mentality and behaviours have gone unchallenged for so long that they believe they're invincible.
LambonaHam@reddit
When they don't respect another's agency, or display empathy.
In your first example, those two children knew what they were doing is wrong. Their parents have failed them, and society.
129sapphires@reddit
The Jamie Bulger case. It was very harrowing hearing about this horrific crime on the news by the perpetrators who were 10 years old at the time. This still haunts me to this day.
Midnightraven3@reddit
That was 33 years ago, I dont think any of us will ever forget.
His grave has been badly damaged and vandalised twice lately. (it seems a 78 year old man is in custody) his poor family, his mum having to go through stuff like this all these years later.
WillowCreekWanderer@reddit
Yep. It happened before I was born, but we learned about it in school. The CCTV image of him being led away is just chilling
Midnightraven3@reddit
It really was. It was incomprehensible at the time that 2 children could be so cold and calculating. My daughter was 3 when it happened, I cannot imagine how Jamie's mother felt. It was SO awful
heartyu@reddit
After having kids I've realised that children are a productive of their environment. Unfortunately these kids you've seen are mirroring behaviours they see at home. They're bullies, it's quite sad. Hope your little one is ok!
mynameisjodie@reddit
Ooh if they ever did that to my autistic 7 year old I'm going straight for the parents necks not the kids nasty chavvy cunty adults bow and make nasty chavvy cunty kids
No-Taro-6953@reddit
Children have capacity for empathy, but it needs to be taught.
Parents who are unkind and unempathetic, don't teach their children to be kind and empathetic.
So you get cruel, unkind kids. Or worse.
By the sounds of it, some parents are dragging their kids up, refusing most responsibility, and suffer from extreme entitlement alongside extreme hostility to constructive criticism. I have friends who are teachers, who have kids entering primary school who've never been taught how to use the toilet, who are severely behind with reading comprehension because their parents won't open a book.
Icy-Weight1803@reddit
Hard to say. Some are dark by nature and born with a lack of empathy, while others are nurtured by the environment they grow up in and beliefs their parents instill in them or influenced by what they see online.
As someone who works on education I've met a majority who I know will grow to be good people and others who unfortunately will grow to have no respect for feelings or welfare of others and feel they can do what they want.
Illustrious_Sea7480@reddit
Were all of these children boys?
butters786@reddit (OP)
Yep
DoubleXFemale@reddit
I wasn’t an unrelenting bully as a child, but there were certainly a few times I said unkind things or wound another child up.
I think sometimes kids don’t get the difference between good natured teasing and being really horrible, also kids who are ok by themselves can get sucked into things by their friends easier than adults can.
It is “kids being kids”, but it’s the kind of “kids being kids” that needs to be corrected.
cateml@reddit
I think there is a spectrum of individual differences in this, that is sometimes created and then sometimes compounded by parenting and environmental factors.
I know what you mean in the sense that I’m a bit like you - as a kid, and now as an adult, there is something in me that can’t bare to cause hurt and distress. And while I think in some ways my parents showed me it was important to care about others, I don’t think they were great at that either - I think to a large extent I just… have this inherent drive to relate and empathize.
On the other side you’ve then got the straight up Patrick Bateman Jnr sociopaths, torturing animals and all that. The unnerving, rare, “nothing behind the eyes” type people. Some of them may well be born that way, but I’ve also sadly seen versions of those mentalities created by an environment or extreme trauma and neglect.
Then inbetween, you’ve got the everyone else - which is what those kids you saw probably are. I think, and in my experience, its a complex interaction between how they’re guided and their capacity to learn.
I believe that with the vast majority of people, empathy can be taught. But in some people that can take a long time and a lot of repetitive and consistent modelling (“notice what that kid is doing. What do you think he feels? Why do you think he feels that way? What would make him feel differently?” Etc.).
And then kids fundamentally have low impulse control and lack of control of their focus and emotions. Unless they have that deeply innate “I must always imagine how others are feeling”, some of the difficulties in learning to be kind will just be down to how easily they can follow what is being modeled to them, and how much of their brain is too overwhelmed by their own emotions at that point. Which is why you get people saying stuff like “I was such a shit as a kid, I can’t believe I said stuff like that!” - as an adult with more control, they have now learned what they simply couldn’t with their kid developmental level.
Which is where the “it’s the bad parents!” can sometimes come in. If the kid isn’t naturally empathetic, and doesn’t learn quickly - it’s hard to tell if it’s just a process and the parents are doing their best, or the parents just don’t care.
ASpookyBitch@reddit
Sadly what you’re seeing is the lack of/ underdeveloped frontal lobe. That’s where things like empathy are kept and it would appear that less and less people are getting that software update.
It’s almost natural instinct to some to almost prey on those deemed weaker then. Be it younger, a minority or whatever. Parents often forget you have to teach empathy from a young age and kids learn how to treat others by how the parents treat each orhers and those around them.
JBB2002902@reddit
Sounds like I’m both of those situations that the kids were being bullying a**holes, and I would’ve been mortified if my children acted like that.
toon_84@reddit
You're allowed to say arsehole
Veenkoira00@reddit
If someone or something is squeezed and confined and then suddenly released, things happen. If someone is made totally powerless under the thumb of someone more powerful and suddenly released, they shall give the same medicine to someone they perceived less powerful than themselves, because they have learned that is the way the world works. Of course parents don't supervise their tweenies in Butlins – they think their little darlings should manage by themselves in a SAFE closed environment.
maksigm@reddit
People have less empathy since lockdown and the shit parents have done more shit parenting since then, producing more shitty little humanoid goblins.
It's the cycle of shit. We need a positive world event to steer us back on the right path.
Impressive-Long2866@reddit
It’s because you were at Butlins. Most families under average intelligence, show no accountability for parenting or boundaries and once on site assume kids can get on with it so they can go around get pissed, smoke/vape and fart about.
Unfortunately children being raised by absolute cunts
BeccasBump@reddit
I think this is behaviour that falls under "developmentally normal but socially unacceptable". It needs to be corrected but it doesn't mean they're irredeemable psychos or anything.
But in both those situations I would have intervened.
hndbabe@reddit
Anyone can be a parent.! That’s the problem, we even tel people they have to. NO. Most people shouldn’t have children, is a great responsibility that no one should take lightly.
lady_edesia@reddit
The term kids will be kids bugs that liveing daylights out of me.
I always took it to be kids will be kids because they're prefrontal cortex isn't developed yet? Therefore, they need to be watched because they are likely to be idiots and that idiotic behaviour needs to be corrected.
From what you described, the issue is not the children. It's the lack of parents.
And as others have said some people are just obnoxious. But I do think a lot of that is them not getting the behaviour corrected when their brain has enough elasticity to learn.
Additional-Nobody352@reddit
I got bullied quite a bit at school and i have seen that kids can be sneaky and calculating when nobody is looking but can brown nose everyone when someone is.
I would report people for things they had done either wouldnt be belived or they would get away with having to say sorry.
SinsOfTheAether@reddit
There is no boundary. Kids are constanttly pushing boundaries and rules to find out how the world around them works. You need to give them appropriate feedback on all of their choices, both the small and the big.
Saying 'kids will be kids' is showing tacit approval for these small behaviours. What's needed is a small and simple message that you saw that, and you dissaprove.
Spottyjamie@reddit
If you complain now you are a karen ffs
Like locally some little darlings were throwing stones at buses and the comments were generally “stay in your own lane” and “boys will be boys” sadly
Its wrong but try your best to avoid them. I moved to a nicer area to ensure ours went to the school we wanted, theres play centres i avoid due to other kids etc
BroodLord1962@reddit
'Kids being kids', the overly used excuse from lazy parents
apple_kicks@reddit
Throwing tantrums in public places after parent says no. Some kids are not rewarded for this and become adults who cause scenes to get what they want when told.
Another bullying thing from childhood that I notice some adults don’t shift. Is mocking someone who looks sad or depressed. Seeing someone vulnerable as a acceptable target
Kitty-Gecko@reddit
"It was nice to hear the voices of little children at play, provided you took care to be far enough away not to hear what they were actually saying" - Terry Pratchett
Honestly I think most younger kids need to be taught empathy and it doesn't come naturally. Most of my friends' kids are absolute stars and their parents have made kindness a core concept in their upbringing.
That's usually modelled by the parents and reinforced by consequences. Kids that lack the consequences and the role models are unlikely to develop it, especially if being "soft" is negatively reinforced in their family and kindness seen as weak.
I'm not saying kids from the shittiest of parents can never become empathetic, but they have a lower chance of learning that kind of emotional intelligence while young and easily influenced by those around them.
My kid is definitely not an angel. Despite my best efforts he struggles with empathy. He's heavily autistic and frequently has violent meltdowns (he doesn't leave the house so it's only me and dad that are at risk.) He's lovely when well regulated but doesn't remember empathy or kindness during a meltdown.
But it doesn't sound like these kids are neurodiverse youngsters losing emotional control, it sounds like they are enjoying what they are doing and practicing what they have learned from other influences.
Kindness is a skill we have to learn, imo. It's a choice. I suspect no one is teaching it to those kids, or rewarding it.
NewSpell9343@reddit
I think children often play with power dynamics. Even the kindest, sweetest kids will push boundaries with each other, with older or younger children. It's learning about your place in the world.
That being said, the most unliked children in our social circle are the one whose parents do not draw social boundaries for their children. They are very loving and involved, but if their child hits another they will find a way to blame the other child or find excuses. Whereas other parents will make a show of breaking up a fight or getting our child to apologise /make friends. This means that at times when they are not supervised, these children behave badly.
I feel sorry for these kids in a way. Their parents are trying to protect them but are doing a massive disservice to them (and society). I am also massively irritated by these kids!
Crackers-defo-600@reddit
Bullying has always existed but I think the public are more concerned about interfering/the consequences of reprimanding bad kids. Thats life now “not my problem “. Kids used to be educated by society, family, neighbours, responsible professions (police, neighbourhood authorities). What lacks is the neighbourliness; there is none today.
smellyfeet25@reddit
SO sick of that. it is an excuse for bad behaviour. Being a kid is not a excuse for being a low life. The harm they can cause is the same. That's not to forget that under 18s are responsible for a lot of crime .
cloudmountainio@reddit
They likely have a lack of boundaries as they’ve probably never had an adult guiding them. They’ve been running free since toddlerhood. The amount of toddlers I see unsupervised in softplay is crazy.
Anyways, back to the older ones… I tell them their behaviour isn’t acceptable. And if parents have the audacity to say anything to me about that, I’ll tell them about themselves too. People need to take accountability for stuff, “they’re just kids” doesn’t wash it with me when it comes to bullying.
I remember at centerparcs some kids being horrible to mine in the park area. Just low level “you can’t play in here” stuff. So I stood outside with my coffee saying “play nice, this is a space for everyone” etc when needed. They went and told their parents, they looked mortified and left. People love to act like it’s working class people’s kids but the Octavia’s and Tarquins of this world can be just as bad.
I genuinely think as a society we need to start telling other peoples kids to correct their behaviour. If my kids were bullying someone etc and for some reason I wasn’t there, I would hope that an adult would step in to tell them their behaviour wasn’t acceptable.
With that being said, I remember being a kid myself, back in the “be home by the time the street lights come on” days and some kids weren’t nice even back then. And you didn’t usually have your mum / dad to get involved and sort stuff out so you got on with it. I do sometimes wonder if we are raising a generation of kids that won’t be able to deal with conflict. I do probably need to encourage my kids to attempt to resolve these issues themselves.
KitFan2020@reddit
Nasty kids have always existed. Same kind of behaviour you describe.
The difference between now and 40 years ago (when I was young) is that they are now ‘braver’ and are pretty much invincible.
An adult would have stepped in back then. Probably with a crack round the head or (on the ride) dragged off by the scruff of their neck.
blah_bitty_blah@reddit
This! Growing up the staff at a resort would have also told you off. Adults in general, are too scared to step in sometimes, because the nasty kids often has a nasty parents who wont tell their children off - but will also tell you off if you try to correct them.
leftmysoulthere74@reddit
I was a child in the late 70s and early 80s and no, kids did not back off if they realised they had gone too far or someone was upset.
Shitty adults have always and they were all once shitty kids.
FinalEgg9@reddit
This was never the case when I was a kid (born in the early 90s, for context). My bullies loved the fact I was upset and alone, and seeing that they affected me only egged them on more. I wish I'd grown up in the world you lived in.
RainbowPenguin1000@reddit
I completely agree a lot of parents are just not keeping a close enough eye on their kids or even don’t see bad behaviour as a problem because they’re kids. The majority of the time I see this is because the parent(s) have their nose stuck in their phone rather than actual parenting their child so I don’t think it will change anytime soon.
Yorkshire_Roast@reddit
It's not even because "they're kids" it's more because they are "my kids." I don't want to come across as grumpy here because I work with the public and most people are brilliant. HOWEVER, there are sone people who think nothing of inflicting their wants/ needs/ bad behaviours on others. Flytipping THEIR shit into green spaces, playing THEIR music without earphones on public transport, eating THEIR smelly food whilst in public buildings...the list goes on. It's like some people (from all age ranges/ generations) have lost the ability to be considerate of others. The park/ library/ bus/ street is not an extention of your living space and you should not be treating it as such. It stands to reason that people who are unwilling to rein in their own selfishness aren't going to put in that much effort when it comes to teaching their children manners and consideration.
SallyJaneCooper@reddit
I'll label them: bullies with lazy parents who are also most probably bullies.
Butlins need to make a rule regarding parent supervision of children and actually enforce it. Where were the attendants on the bumper cars? They're responsible for safety.
As for your son, work with him on not giving a damn what assholes do. Bullies want a reaction. Totally ignore them, keep going about your business, and they'll get bored and go away. Teach him that the true power lies in not giving a damn and not reacting. Practice at home with role playing. I did this with my students and my own kids. It works.
Yorkshire_Roast@reddit
I agree with you, this is bullies being bullies. Sadly, a lot of these people are given a free pass because the adults around them either don't know how to address their behaviour, or are too afraid to do so. I was bullied relentlessly as a child. There was one particular girl who was the ringleader of a lot of it, but the teachers refused to address it because her mum had threatened to put her into care if she got any more bad reports from school. Parents couldn't afford to send me to a private school and there were no other schools with places available within sensible travelling distance. So I was basically stuck in a dangerous environment where the adults were more concerned with making excuses for the bullies than they were about safeguarding me. The biggest joke is that when I snapped on occassion, I was the one who ended up in trouble. So the teachers clearly did have sanctions at their disposal because they used them on me rather than my tormentors. I am still mentally unwell as a result of what happened to me at school.
Here's my point. We need to stop making excuses for bad behaviour and letting perpetrators off the hook. Is it sad that some kids have a bad home life? Yes. Should parents who are struggling to raise their children have access to help? Yes. But this current trend towards just saying "kids will be kids" is putting other, often more vulnerable children, at risk. And comparatively few people ever speak up for those kids.
RainbowPenguin1000@reddit
Parents*
If you put that much effort in to your original reply this whole thread would never have happened.
bunnyflowerpink@reddit
Butlins is like a cult !
Specific_Club_7640@reddit
Parents can either be positive role models or literally missing in action, glued to a smart phone, constantly ignoring their children.
In our neighbourhood, we often see 4 - or 5 year olds playing on their own or in larger friendship groups of neighbourhood children. You only see a parent when it's meal times. Thankfully, most of the children are of the friendly type, with great imagination. These neighbourhood kids play like we did in the 1970s.
The behaviour you describe is not normal & I suspect they have little interaction with their parents. It's called neglect & could have devastating affects on them if left unchecked.
I remember on a visit to family in another town our 9 year old son was walking on ahead of us, through a play area. Suddenly, he was surrounded by older kids, asking for him to show them his phone. (He didn't have one - we waited till he was at the end of year 6). Then they asked him what he had in his backpack & where he was going. They assumed he was alone & easy pickings. He was obviously not from their area. As soon as we caught up, they scattered. He kept his cool, mostly because he probably didn't know that some kids could cause trouble.
Kids generally model their parents' behaviour. There's always been lazy, absent, or rubbish parents. Nowadays, however, we do know that young kids are influenced by violent video games. If they play an 18-rated game aged 9 or 10, their introduced to violence or sexual themes their too young to fully understand.
ERTCF53@reddit
In reality a lot of kids have zero empathy and the other kid crying just makes them worse, they now know what buttons to press. They behave worse when in twos or more or more because it's like a pack mentality. Given the idea that there would be no repercussions, I think there could be a lot more kids who would take it very far indeed, like Jamie Bulger's murderers, that would just keep going and going until very nasty things happen.
chocklityclair@reddit
Children are people. If they're 'being kids' it usually means that they're messing about, being unaware of the consequences, testing boundaries, as you say.
But they can also be unpleasant people. Maybe because they don't have a great personality, maybe because they're not being raised with care and attention, maybe because whoever is raising them doesn't have a great personality or is deficient in some aspect of caregiving. Or all three.
I think it crosses into something more concerning when one or more of those factors is present. It sounds as though the kids you saw were not being taken care of, and because it was Butlin's I imagine the parents were in a bar or sleeping off a hangover. Either they haven't pulled their kids up on their bullying behaviour, or they've actually encouraged it in some way. And the kids don't know how to entertain themselves without some element of cruel/antisocial behaviour.
They'll probably all be in trouble with the police at some point. Even if the parents were in fact sitting in a bar nearby thinking that was supervision.
First-Lengthiness-16@reddit
Both of those are fine on the surface.
Copying people is something kids do all the time. It’s funny to them, I used to find it funny. I continued even when my sister got upset.
The dodgems incident is closer to the line, but that’s what dodgems are for. Crashing into folk
HmNotToday1308@reddit
You must have gotten extremely lucky in school not to meet the childhood version of the absolute dickhead you end of working with...
Iforgotmypassword126@reddit
There have been a couple of incidents over the last few days, and in both cases there were no parents anywhere around. - seems extremely normal but you don’t mention ages I’m assuming they aren’t under 6?
Not nice but seems very normal - In one, my son (younger, on his own for a moment) had two older kids come and sit next to him on a ledge, about 5 metres of empty ledge and the sat right next to him. They kept copying/mirroring him even after he asked them to stop. It sounds minor, but they kept going and laughing until he got really upset and came over to us in tears.
In another, I watched two kids (maybe 9–10) on the dodgems very deliberately target a younger asian girl who was on her own, going out of their way to repeatedly crash into her while ignoring everyone else. It didn’t feel random and was intentional and she was crying after a while of this but they continued. Again no parents in sight. - unfortunately this also feels normal but I’d definitely intervene as an adult even if I wasn’t related to either parties.
No parents in sight again depends on their age.
So yes this is normal and common behavioural boundary pushing but as an adult in the situation you’re allowed to say “hey, stop targeting that girl and leave her alone” or go speak to staff and say those children are bullying that girl can you do something?”
ModeratelyHinged@reddit
Kids being kids is when they genuinely don’t know any better. But once they’ve been told something is unkind or unwanted and they carry on anyway, that’s not innocence anymore, that’s a choice.
By that age, they will have been taught what’s right and wrong, at school if not at home. So they do understand the impact of what they’re doing. And when they keep going, that’s not just “kids being kids”, that’s bullying.
What I struggle with is why anyone would choose to go out of their way to hurt someone else. There’s so much good to be had in the world, so many ways to enjoy life and lift people up, and yet some people still choose the opposite, if someone actually gets satisfaction from seeing someone else hurt or upset, that points to something deeper that isn’t right…
It costs nothing to be kind, but it can mean everything to the person on the receiving end.
peppermint_aero@reddit
Sounds like bullying behaviour.
Sounds like the second one may also have a racist element to it? I say "may" because you didn't mention the ethnicity of the kids targeting her.
AutoModerator@reddit
Please help keep AskUK welcoming!
When replying to submission/post please make genuine efforts to answer the question given. Please no jokes, judgements, etc. If a post is marked 'Serious Answers Only' you may receive a ban for violating this rule.
Don't be a dick to each other. If getting heated, just block and move on.
This is a strictly no-politics subreddit!
Please help us by reporting comments that break these rules.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.