So...France is leaving the Eurodrone program because this drone doesn’t fit its current war doctrine and It’s also already too expensive, too slow, too large, too heavy and poorly suited or even outdated in modern conflict and possibly reduced to a maritime role, Should it be cancelled?
Posted by TalonEye53@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 339 comments
republicman12@reddit
Germany wanted a drone that wouldn't crash into a house if an engine failed. So they made it big and slow. Now France says it's outdated. Classic case of design by committee killing a project. Shame but not surprising.
Droidy934@reddit
Looks like an ideal loitering drone. The kamakazi attack drones are going to be very much smaller, faster less expensive.
The Ukraine war has been a huge wake up call for all military.
fumar@reddit
Anyone not building a LUCAS/Shahed-136 is behind the times. Same with weaponizing quad copter drones.
FlukeylukeGB@reddit
oh you spent 40 million on a single guided missile to take out one military factory?
or the spend 40 million on 40 thousand drones to blow up said military factory and still have 39 thousand drones left over for other targets...
fumar@reddit
You would think 4 years of the Ukraine war would teach western militaries something but no.
Gudin@reddit
The advantage is now for Shahed-type drones because it's a $35k drone being intercepted by a $200k - $4M missile, but this won't last. There are now small interceptor drones, so we will have possibly a $5k drone intercepting $35k Shahed-type drones.
TalonEye53@reddit (OP)
So we're replacing all drones of any types to be small?
Droidy934@reddit
There is no "do it all" drone, France doesn't want to go down the full aircraft size drone route. Bigger not always better.
TalonEye53@reddit (OP)
What about the neuron despite it's looks as it's quite big
Pleasant_Change_5381@reddit
The Neuron is a collaborative combat drone like the YFQ-42A.
MundanePresence@reddit
Collab but led by France. That’s the issue with new Europeans projects, dassault is the only European company capable of leading such project, and they don’t want other countries to have access to their whole R&D for free, which is understandable!
LundiDesSaucisses@reddit
It's also stealthy, and at this point it was just a show case prototype.
It was just a proof of concept, its size and specs aren't definitive, they just wanted to show that they could build it.
TalonEye53@reddit (OP)
And also a strike or it's just the reaper that does it?
Pleasant_Change_5381@reddit
Yes, it can perform air-to-ground missions
TalonEye53@reddit (OP)
Oh thank goodness
CardOk755@reddit
Actually in this case it's Trump's war on Iran that was the wake up call.
The US has had 24 reapers shot down.
These kinds of drones are only useful against enemies with no air defense at all.
Agreeable_Garlic_912@reddit
Which is still a lot of people. Insurgencies and anti terror missions didn't just vanish all of a sudden.
Mist_Rising@reddit
It's also 24 Reaper drones that were not manned planes. While a Reaper is not cheap, the pilot in a manned plane is far more expensive than that, especially when you have to fetch them in a massively costly operation. Trust me, the military would rather lose a Reaper.
ihatemondays117312@reddit
That’s not necessarily true
They’re also, being drones, are more expendable than manned aircraft. While they are definitely more vulnerable, they are way cheaper, don’t have a pilot inside, and have a lot of loiter time for ISR and strike purposes
They would definitely be less vulnerable if forces over there had a better lock on Iranian air defense, but they arent useless against enemies that can shoot them down
DaimonHans@reddit
Most of you too young to remember the Redeemer from Unreal Tournament
FireShots@reddit
This is probably faster than Redeemer.
bibslak_@reddit
M-M-M-MONSTER KILL
asphytotalxtc@reddit
Haha! Christ I'd forgotten all about that thing... Nightmare 😂😂
kind_bros_hate_nazis@reddit
There's dozens of us
God-sLastResort@reddit
Multikill!
CompetitiveReview416@reddit
Not everybody has answered the call though. Militaries are very stuck in their ways of thinking
GalacticMe99@reddit
I don't feel Europe has woken up much at all tbh.
wowwee99@reddit
Needs a space for a human ethic observer to fly over and lecture people while buying Russian gas. And a pilot.
vld_zmh@reddit
There is no Ukraine war. There is only russian war against Ukraine.
Droidy934@reddit
Kiev was bombing the Russian speaking population in 2014 ....killing 14,000 of their "own" people till Putin stepped in to protect them. That's why he has not bothered with the rest of the Ukrainian speaking country.
BillytheBloxian@reddit
the entirety of the russo-ukraine war is russia and ukraine beefing with eachother, nothing to do with putin wanting a renewed soviet union
Tomsboll@reddit
You make it sound like there is equal blame in this war. It fucking is not. Its a genocidal land grab from russia, 100 fucking percent.
BuritoKonchito@reddit
Russian propaganda tales…
Droidy934@reddit
And you believe the comedien in charge of Ukraine 😂😂😂 the one with the multi million dollar mansion in America🤡
LeandrysRx@reddit
Nice try Vova.
Tomsboll@reddit
Just do what saab did for the predator, turn it into a loitering mini awacs.
Ybalrid@reddit
Typical French thing to do. That's how we got the Rafale (France left the Eurofighter project to do its own thing IIRC?)
Blucksy-20-04@reddit
France almost certainly asked for it all to be made in france and got told no
Gramerdim@reddit
if I was in the program I'd leave it too, look at the damn thing!!!
livinthedreamz@reddit
You have seen a piaggio? It’s a canard design with a mid body mounted wing. Other than being a twin, they share 0 in common.
Gramerdim@reddit
twin turboprop engines mounted on the fuselage
livinthedreamz@reddit
No, it looks nothing like a business jet and neither does a piaggio
Get smarter
Gramerdim@reddit
olga_foishlow@reddit
Yes. France is right with this, such drones aren't usable now.
HKTLE@reddit
I bet they left because they want to be leading it
marcorogo@reddit
is that a screenshot from KSP?
RTX-4090ti_FE@reddit
France leaving a collaborative European military aviation project. What a surprise!!!
Excellent-Job-8460@reddit
And they are often right. Working with certain countries especially Germany is nearly impossible. They have all sorts of weird complicated and often trivial requirements. It just doesn’t work.
As a French I feel like the only countries we have actually created viable projects with are the UK (predominantly), Italy and Spain.
IronVader501@reddit
Yes, working with the germans is impossible.
Lets ignore Dassault declaring they want 80% of the workshare on FCAS against the agreement, but demand the others still pay 50% of the cost, reducing everyone else to glorified buyers with no say in the actual product or domestic production of relevant parts.
How dare they not jump at that "deal"
petelleo@reddit
Most of the UE industrial/financial rules are tailored to German needs… Last exemple, MERCOSUR, forcefully implemented despite French and Italian opposition. Hurting French agriculture, so Volkswagen can sell more cars… Ultimately, as a French tax payer, I end up paying for German industries. I accept it because Germany is the « big boy »in this sector. France made some bad political/economical choices. We made mistakes, we now pay for them…
When it comes to military questions, France is the biggest player. Germany took bad decisions, and should now pay for them…
How come is not a problem when it is the other way around ? It’s called balance and it’s the foundation of the UE. Everybody wants to be in the Union, nobody wants to be a German vassal state.
Regarding your comment, it’s misleading. Dassault wants control on the jet, which is only a part of the whole FCAS program.
iBorgSimmer@reddit
First, that « 80% » figure still touted in the German sphere was a lie from the beginning. Then there are the pillars of FCAS led by Germany, where funnily they’re happy to keep the other parties as underlings. And finally the same publication, Hartpunkt, that was at the forefront of the anti-Dassault propaganda just signaled that Spain should accept to be a humbler subcontractor in a German-led fighter program 🤪
Gav3121@reddit
They didnt claim that
ShadowGrebacier@reddit
I just find it amusing that with most collaborative projects France has been a part of with a European coalition (read: more then 2 countries total) France tells the group "peace out" and goes to build it's own stuff, with blackjack and hookers.
qonkk@reddit
It makes sense here, though...
People keep saying it's France's fault yet somehow France is the 2nd largest weapon exporter and their procurement agency is excellent. Maybe they're hard to work with at times, but maybe the partners have too much bureaucracy and don't even really know what they need...
Tricky_Big_8774@reddit
France is more worried about how many they can than how many they can use.
TheThiccestOrca@reddit
France telling the rest of Europe what it needs (coincidentally overlapping with what France wants), a classic.
LaMineDeSel@reddit
And yet we are right in the end.
FactChiquito@reddit
This must be the most childish, xenophobic and uninformed comment of the day.
Please reread the story before making such posts.
Saumontory@reddit
Yeah let's continue to spent public money on a big piñata just because it's a EU cooperation does not mean it's gonna be a good and useful project especially when R/D its a nightmare... this project it's such a mess. It's the perfect exemple of what EU project shouldn't do.
Connor_Olds@reddit
In case anyone else was curious about this aircraft:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurodrone?wprov=sfti1#Development
crozone@reddit
Have they considered not using a military drone to spy on their own population?
iambackend@reddit
Seriously though, I guess at least for training you are going to take off from your own territory and fly over it. Are all military aircraft in Germany have two engines? Seems expensive and nit-picky.
Gedrot@reddit
"Seems expensive and nit-picky."
It's the core German experience. We don't do "functional and affordable".
Battle_Intense@reddit
Same country that did an 8 engine bomber in WW2 to have something equivalent to allied 4 engine bombers.
Techhead7890@reddit
Ah, so that's where the B-52 consultants were pulled from.
AdwokatDiabel@reddit
It's the built in flaw to make sure y'all can't take over the world. Imagine if "good enough" was the German motto? Scary.
Nippon-Gakki@reddit
Why use one part when ten parts will work almost as well?
-some German engineer
Type-21@reddit
Yes for decades. This was always a core demand of all aircraft purchases in Germany because of the over a hundred crashes of single engine F-104. Now the F-35 is the only exception and that was only made because of nuclear bombing capability being not negotiable. Officially it was argued that it's engine is especially reliable and therefore they can move away from the dual engine demand.
afkPacket@reddit
It's the perfect excuse whenever politicians have reasons to not like single engine aircraft yeah.
Meanwhile, the F-16 has been out there doing its thing since the 70s...
Pristine_Barber976@reddit
USAF Historical Totals (1975–1993): During this 19-year period, engine failure was the #1 cause of major mishaps, accounting for 35% (roughly 66 aircraft) of the 190 total Class A mishaps analyzed.
Peak Failure Rates: In the late 1990s and early 2000s, engine-related issues caused a significant spike in losses, reaching as many as 18 aircraft destroyed in a single year.
Global Context: Worldwide, an estimated 748 F-16s have been destroyed in accidents or malfunctions since the type entered service in 1978. Experts note that engine failure has frequently outpaced even pilot error as the primary factor in these crashes.
afkPacket@reddit
That gives you exactly zero information about whether it is suitable for single engine aircraf to fly over populated areas
series-hybrid@reddit
Although Ukraine has committed to buying some of the dual-engine Rafales from France, their biggest order was for the single-engine Gripen from Sweden.
Honorable mention of the US and allies buying F-35's
Pastill@reddit
This is literally the main criticism of against letting braindead bearcats accumulate too much power. It is literally the erotion of any sufficiently advance state.
moving0target@reddit
Look at the HK G11. Teutonic witchcraft. If it isn't over engineered has it been engineered at all.
Tusan1222@reddit
Yeah, are they gonna prohibit f16’s and gripens to fly over them in war time?
SiBloGaming@reddit
Nope, the F35s Germany is getting certainly dont have two engines
Usual_Science8528@reddit
Was the F-104 their last single engine aircraft?
Nightcrawler9898@reddit
We build a rocket engine under it, soooo we did that there too. We love overengineering
SiBloGaming@reddit
Nope, there are (and have been) single engine piston/turboprop trainers in use, same with drones. But as far as jets go, yes.
Nightcrawler9898@reddit
Wait until they here. We gon strap a engine from the replaced Tornado on the roof. We also make very good duct tape
Fruitos3@reddit
Pretty sure all military aircraft are twin engines in German armed forces since their smallest helicopter is the H145, maybe they could have a prop single engine plane trainer though. But yeah, it's really not picky.
eukary0te@reddit
Nein.
Kinder22@reddit
Jein.
PoolRamen@reddit
When you import enough risk factors then it's sometimes the only option, alas
Jigglepirate@reddit
Ah the old "blame one group for why the government needs more power to deal with them"
PoolRamen@reddit
Ah, the old "completely oblivions to how many home-grown, foreign-coordinated plots our intel services have to take down"
Living_Illusion@reddit
And yet one of the most devastating terror groups ever operating on German soil has created and supported by the bnd who the actively hindered investigations and destroyed evidence (seriously read up the nsu case it’s insane).
Jigglepirate@reddit
I bet you think the Patriot act was a reasonable response to 9/11. Surely the government will relinquish the power once the issue is dealt with, and we haven't just normalized permanent surveillance.
PoolRamen@reddit
That's the thing you see, most govts already have these powers without necessarily massively overreaching
Jigglepirate@reddit
So just lean into it because they promise to use it to solve your problem?
PoolRamen@reddit
That's literally your choice. I choose to within reason because I don't need another 7/7 - but in many ways it's too late.
Jigglepirate@reddit
👍
ElSquibbonator@reddit
You'd think Germany, of all countries, would have a few reservations about something like that.
NewUser769283@reddit
What is 14 - 5?
runtorenovate@reddit
With all seriousness drones like this could be very helpful in guarding critical infrastructure and that just goes throughout populated areas. Plus in Germany and Europe generally you have a village every few kilometres.
Minisohtan@reddit
If it's designed for loitering efficiency it will likely have an extremely efficient gliding behavior. So your point is even more valid than general aviation.
Something like Global hawk has a 33:1 ratio per Google vs something closer to 10:1 for general aviation. So if you're at 1,000m, you could glide 33km with some penalty for turning.
So if Global hawk was up at 20,000m (slightly higher than public limits to make math easy), it could glide 660km.
hundredblocks@reddit
We leave them unsupervised for like 50 years and look what happens!
leaningtoweravenger@reddit
Well, a drone is just an unmanned aircraft, the use that you do with it makes it military or not, this isn't an F15 or an A10. Many planes and helicopters are both used by police forces and the military already.
where_is_the_salt@reddit
hum... no? What would the police do with planes? Arrest criminal planes? give speed tickets to JetOwners? (joke, the police never gives tickets to rich people)
Not in europe at least. Maybe yes for a few helicopters, but we hardly ever see any flying thing above our cities.
Porschenut914@reddit
some US states use them for speed enforcement as one plane can see dozens of miles of highway and quickly make out if one dot is moving faster than others.
sadrobot420@reddit
Last I checked the UK is still in Europe and the police here operate at least 4 planes for surveillance, tracking, search & rescue etc.
They fly faster, higher and longer than helos.
kind_bros_hate_nazis@reddit
I like how the number is comically small for a country that size but technically correct in it's wording
The UK has at least 2 planes in use by the police is also correct
where_is_the_salt@reddit
Ok, I stand corrected.
flyingkajak@reddit
That’s pretty incorrect. The UK uses many police aircraft like the Partenavia Observer.
These planes are used for search and rescue, catching fugitives and monitoring roads. Similarly, speed limits are enforced by plane in some regions of the world.
Germany has a huge police helicopter fleet, with anything ranging from a H145 all the way to big transport helicopters for SWAT.
In the larger cities in Germany I live in, I see police helicopters almost daily.
mjtwelve@reddit
Helicopters are loud and obvious when overhead. No one notices a plane flying higher with better cameras, and it can loiter a lot longer.
where_is_the_salt@reddit
Ok, I stand corrected.
_Spare_15_@reddit
Ha, they must not know that half of their buildings come blurred by design. Silly government.
Aksds@reddit
But where’s the fun in that?
Cold_Specialist_3656@reddit
Lol. So Gemrany wanted a domestic spy plane?
voxcon@reddit
I think they just wanted a plane that could also be flown over domestic areas in europe without getting into trouble with EASA regulations. I assume, having a single engine in an unmanned drone flying in european airspace would be very difficult to pull of.
Iliyan61@reddit
the MQ9B is certified in the UK and potentially has some european customers so i’d imagine single engine isn’t an issue
Longjumping_Rule_560@reddit
The Netherlands has 4. Isn’t the military exempt from EASA rules anyway (within reason).
Iliyan61@reddit
ah i didn’t know they had them yet, i think they’re exempt but must be manually piloted and within certain profiles or smth idr
the main thing of this seems to be autonomous and basically unrestricted
voxcon@reddit
Maybe you're right. But i can also see why having a second engine would make things easier from a certification point of view. With only a single engine any engine problem becomes hazardous or catastrophic instantaneously. Having a second, indipendent engine most liekly reduces severity of the incident to major.
Iliyan61@reddit
the MQ9B was literally designed to fly in civvie airspace lmfao and it’s the first UCAV to do so iirx
dual engine is obviously safer but single engines are pretty damn safe
symptomezz@reddit
It’s the good old classic of French German military procurement where Germany wants something usable in Europe and France only wants something suitable to larp colonial power in the sahel
Henry___Connor@reddit
It should also be related to the Euro Hawk scandal of 2013, when Germany wanted to buy US Global Hawks, and realized after spending hundreds of million euros it could not operate safely within the European airspace
joesnopes@reddit
What was the problem?
Takemyfishplease@reddit
It didn’t have anti collision capabilities so it would smash into other things in the air.
SPACE_LAWYER@reddit
Would is doing a lot here
Dehnus@reddit
Riiiiight. Spying on citizens Merz style is fiiiiiine and realistic.
p2eminister@reddit
But why would they need a drone to do that? If its in Germany, they can just put up cameras. They literally have already done that all over germany
Dehnus@reddit
Protest containment. Germany has been all about that regarding climate protestors and especially Pro Palestine protests. Cameras don't see everything and a buzzing loud drone circling overhead also intimidates.
Think like the amateur despot like Mertz and you'll understand it. Not saying he wants to overthrow Germany, I'm saying he wants control to keep doing what his monied interests (mainly old industrialist families) want him to.
QIyph@reddit
Cameras see more than a drone in urban environments because buildings don't interfere with line of sight when they're at ground level. And a drone flying low enough to be seen let alone heard is just not something that happens for so many reasons.
Dehnus@reddit
Cameras are not as good to see how big a crowd is and how it's moving. Plus again: psychological impact on protestors of having a drone that size move over head as you can hear them.
QIyph@reddit
Did you even read my comment?
Altruistic_Region699@reddit
They're trying that in Berlin now. Putting up cameras in a problematic area. Theyll achieve nothing and all get stolen or trashed. Then they'll claim it was a huge success and spread them all over for the sake of 'security'.
factually-first@reddit
meanwhile France produces actual aviation bought by other states, while Germany cannot sell a single euro fighter
symptomezz@reddit
Call me when the Rafale hits the Eurofighters production numbers
Activision19@reddit
Around 600 eurofighters have been built and around 300 of the roughly 530 Rafael’s ordered have been built. They will be comparable in numbers once the firm Rafael orders are completed.
symptomezz@reddit
Then call me once they have completed all orders
PropOnTop@reddit
If you see this through the optics of resources, then France need uranium and imports some of it from Africa. A textbook case of a proxy war of resources is Niger, where a pro-French government was toppled (probably due to Russian/Wagner) meddling in 2023.
France needs to maintain international military presence due to crucial resources while Germany, having forgone nuclear, either has other priorities, or is just still afraid to set its priorities.
I mean, the parallel with the last century's German attempt to seize some resources on Russian territory did not go particularly well for them...
symptomezz@reddit
Im not saying that France meddling in Africa doesn’t make sense but a big power enforcing their influence in Africa for resources sounds very much like colonialism larp
SomethingNotOriginal@reddit
If it's a colonialism larp, and those big mean words make their way to the french government, and they change their mind, what then?
The Chinese, Russians and Americans come in and bribe or extort the resources anyway, and they're worse off for no benefit?
The 'Colonialism Larp' will happen regardless of the mask it wears or language it speaks.
imladrikofloren@reddit
It's not larping when we never stopped doing it. We just put a fresh coat of paint on it.
PropOnTop@reddit
Well, Europeans need to pull their heads out of their asses, realize that China is practically buying everything it can, the US just uses brute force, and then come the simps who dream about a united world full of peace.
Colonialism is just as outdated a slur as, I don't know, leftist and rightist.
symptomezz@reddit
Colonialism is not a slur it’s the practice of extending and maintaining political, social, economic, and cultural domination over a territory and its people by another people and it sucked in the past for a lot of those dominated people.
joesnopes@reddit
And was extraordinarily valuable for many of these people.
BTW. Certainly "colonialism" as you define and wish to use it is a slur. As the simple control of a territory by another nation's government, it's merely a useful definition. But the Left always wants to weaponise all these useful concepts.
HatinCheese@reddit
Colonization used divide and rule concept, saying it was valuable to "many" of these people is straight up false and a denial of reality. Colonization was a spiritual heir of slavery where local populations were used to extract their own resources to the benefit of the colonizer country, people were in that grey area where technically they could be considered citizens of their colonizer country but at the same time they would not get the same rights. Colonizer countries would usually choose a specific ethnic group and put it on a pedestal by giving it preferred treatments to make it feel special, and make other ethnic groups feel resentment towards it, all this to mitigate the chance of local unions and lower the chance of revolt. They would pay enormous taxes especially relative to their wages, which were extremely low, and if they didn't they would face terrible consequences such as physical punishments, forced labor, imprisonment or death, sometimes the colonizers would even massively kill people of villages to set an example.
There was also many cases of child labor, raping of local populations, castration, and generally a lot of practices that would degrade their human condition.
A lot of infrastructure that was built in those countries was only built to serve the production that would later be exported to the "homeland" and with the inhumane work conditions I cited before, they were not built to benefit the local populations.
All those arguments saying colonization benefitted in some ways to the colonized countries are of bad faith and only used to justify the atrocities of colonialism, which was always self centered and very often if not always motivated by a racist agenda.
Specialist-Daikon242@reddit
In a way they are still our colo'y, we litteraly print their money in Paris
ComfortFun6426@reddit
What does "larp" mean? The dictionary has no answer.
Diligent_Explorer717@reddit
It means pretend to do something. In this case it means that France is trying to be something they’re not.
BlueEagleGER@reddit
Live-action role playing
Apprehensive-Aide265@reddit
Ceasar gun while able to larp in sahel can also larp in Ukraine, same for their mirage 2000 and other hardware their sent to ukraine.
where_is_the_salt@reddit
Oh my sweet child, our dear leaders want to larp colonial power over other places too...
fhorst79@reddit
This killed the Global Hawk Program, as they never were certified for civilian flight and ultimately Germany did not buy them after spending a lot of money to develop their own sensor package for it.
AnaphoricReference@reddit
It's the same thing as with jet fighters. Germany always has territorial defense of Europe as a procurement priority. So it mainly invests in interceptors, not bombers. And when they build a big sensor platform they picture it loitering over Europe behind the frontline, assisting the interceptors with data. A role where one would hope engine failure is indeed the biggest practical risk.
Same thing with drone defense. Germany mainly thinks about shooting down drone swarms. France about bombing the shit out of the operators and builders of the drones. Both valid approaches, but not when you build one system together.
SamuthNBS@reddit
It's very American to assume that your military will never have to defend your own territory. Germany borders Russia, remember.
Porschenut914@reddit
US states use them for traffic enforcement. some helicopters may have trouble keeping up with 150mph cars
Beyllionaire@reddit
Well they'll need it after they implement that forced conscription thing they're considering and people start rioting.
MobileEnvironment393@reddit
Ahhh classic design by committee. This is how you end up with catastrophically poor equipment that can do everything, just really badly, so it's actually good for nothing and too complex to use. Oh, and morbidly expensive.
Take a leaf out of the Russian's book - make tank, make armor thick, make gun shoot hard. Make more tank. Simple is good, design for the task required.
Lufishshmebb@reddit
Oh yeah following Russian design philosophy surely will cause no issues whatsoever!
cut to montage of T-72 turrets achieving orbit
EchoOneFour@reddit
I mean sure.. but they have hundreds more where that came from in their doctrine... While western tanks...sure maybe they won't explode but they will still be disabled and have exponentially fewer numbers...
Goldentoast@reddit
Western tank crews have higher survivability.
LundiDesSaucisses@reddit
You have to find a middle ground between numbers and survivability / "quality".
Because if you don't have the numbers the your 200 tanks aren't going to do much against 2000+, even if your tank doesn't entirely blows up on a landmine it still will be disabled, and it still will be disabled if it gets shot by a 120mm gun.
Your crew might survive, but you're still one of too few tanks down.
It's fascinating how the doctrines are fundamentally different between russia and their western counterparts.
Is anybody actually between a tank that is somewhat in the middle ? like decent quality and not too expensive / hard to build at the same time ?
Kabouki@reddit
It is worth noting that the US now has the largest tank stockpile. That the russian cheap tanks with permanent green crews aren't doing all that great.
One would think an aviation sub would understand the importance and skill difference of veteran pilots and tank crews vs green crews.
EchoOneFour@reddit
That is exactly what i said.. they don't blow up as far but they have much smaller numbers... In the end even a cheap tank is better than no tank
True-Literature-5847@reddit
Cheap tanks can't stop blowing up, has been heading towards no tanks and no crew
AdventurousBase221@reddit
no one is running out of people to learn how to use a tank.
their will be a infantry shortage before there is a tank crew shortage. hell they probably run out of tanks before they can run out of people to crew them.
True-Literature-5847@reddit
There is a point you stop calling them a crew when they don't really know what they're doing
AdventurousBase221@reddit
your gunna be super surprised when you learn how militaries train their crew then.
I say this as someone who crewed the bradley. most of the crew members are new blood minus the commander.
UpsetStudent6062@reddit
How are those M1A1 abrams doing?
NothingPersonalKid00@reddit
Well they are not giving their crews an automatic death sentence when their ammo cooks off.
DigitalSheikh@reddit
Their automatic death sentence is instead outside once they have to bail out and get picked off by drones. Not saying Abrams isn’t better in that regard, just that the gap isn’t necessarily as meaningful in this war. It can be a better vehicle, but still get the same result.
The one advantage T-90m has over Abrams is being less vulnerable to drones because of its armored autoloader sitting in the part of the tank least vulnerable to drones. It’s a great example because even though it has that advantage, it seems to get the same result anyway.
Ainene@reddit
Few things to laugh about. While Russian MALE/HALE drones aren't exactly a big success, they're certainly far more successful than European ones, as they actually exist and fight.
MobileEnvironment393@reddit
Taking my point to an extreme position is obviously unreasonable
Colonelcool125@reddit
Their armor has the same unearned reputation as the AK series. Rugged and cheap, but not particularly good compared to Western kit.
MobileEnvironment393@reddit
Yes, that's good. Avoid obvious design flaws like storing the ammo right below the crew, and pump out cheap equipment that is "good enough" for the job it is designed for. 1000 units of that will defeat 10 units of super expensive, multirole, designed-by-committee rubbish.
SamuthNBS@reddit
You say that but Russia has lost thousands of their tanks while the 14 Challenger 2 have been reduced to 13... so no, thousands of them cannot beat ten western tanks, they couldn't even beat no western tanks to start with.
Federal-Cold-363@reddit
Oh sure, we'll make a call on the moskva which got a promotion to submarine. Mighty russian simple inventiveness. Smekalka for you smekalka for me smekalka for everybody ruski mir...........
BillytheBloxian@reddit
ah yes, one unmaintaned ship that was begging to be scrapped surely sums up the entire russian army...
UAL914@reddit
dude that was literally the flagship of the black sea fleet. if that's how they kept their flagship I don't even want to know what the rest of their navy is like
BillytheBloxian@reddit
the were giving up on it as it was old anf forgotten, and would've been replaced by a grigorvich or gorshkov, and possibly a gepard in the future.
UAL914@reddit
yeah... no. it literally just came out of major repairs and modernization in 2020 with the goal of extending its life to 2040. nice try tho
BillytheBloxian@reddit
no it didn't. it was known to have outdated CIWS and radar. it still used the ak630 instead of the kortik even.
UAL914@reddit
because they had no money to properly refit it. either way, it just came out of refit in 2020 and it was supposed to serve until 2040. bye now :)
BillytheBloxian@reddit
sure buddy. you totally won the argument.
Apprehensive-Aide265@reddit
This was a missile cruiser a capital ship by russia standard, not a small frigate or patrol boat. And yet it is now under the sea. If this the best russia could offer to their black sea navy it doesn't point a good look for the rest.
BillytheBloxian@reddit
well, it isn't the best.
Federal-Cold-363@reddit
What is? The armata? The SU femboy? Please do tell.
BillytheBloxian@reddit
oh please. the armata doesnt exist. we know.
the su-57 does, but you couldn't fathom that russia has anything good. you single brain cell just can't comprehend that.
Federal-Cold-363@reddit
Lufishshmebb@reddit
It’s very reasonable given the evidence of what happens to them in Ukraine,
Also if you’re specifically nitpicking the Germans they make a pretty good main battle tank in the Leopard 2
mike7257@reddit
Shoot by a 25 year old leopard 2 from 5.5 km distance
iBorgSimmer@reddit
This and putting Manching in charge.
joesnopes@reddit
The drawing makes it look like it was a coffee break idea from the A400M committee.
SereneOrbit@reddit
I agree with France here, these drones are meant to be inexpensive from an Army perspective.
They need to be a 'value' package carefully constructed with regards to 'most probable mission' types and especially cost and mass production.
I'd construct a small family of such drones for different missions.
iBorgSimmer@reddit
Like the EPR, riddled with overinflated safety measures thanks to Germany… leading to an over expensive and late product.
Crifort@reddit
Yes, because as everyone knows, once you lose the engine on a single engine plane it drops straight down. It doesn't glide. Especially not if you're 15-20.000ft up. Nope. Never.
/s
New_Flight5937@reddit
Rigole, mais il y'a des zone interdites dans les grandes villes, tu ne peux pas voler trop au centre de la ville de certaines grandes villes de France en avion de tourisme justement pour cette raison : si les moteurs tombent en panne oui tu peux encore planer, mais pas pendant l'infinie. Il est strictement interdit de voler au dessus de Paris par exemple car la ville est trop large pour pouvoir atterrir en toute sécurité si un incident se déclare.
Je ne sais pas à quelle altitude évolueraient ces drones, mais si c'est trop bas alors c'est le même problème que les avion de tourisme.
Crifort@reddit
Un drone comme ça vole au minimum entre 15 et 20000 pieds. Bien au dessus des restrictions de survol des villes. (Source: je suis pilote et contrôleur aérien)
New_Flight5937@reddit
Ça m'a l'air d'être une source suffisamment fiable.
Some1-Somewhere@reddit
Lack of engine auxiliaries (power, hydraulics) could be more of an issue in a drone than a piloted plane.
Iron_Burnside@reddit
That's why you equip an APU or RAT.
cherche1bunker@reddit
Yeah and it’s already quite an issue in a plane. People die because of engine failure.
You can argue that it’s wrong decision making, lack of training but still, with a working engine you’ve got much higher chances of survival than without.
cherche1bunker@reddit
Yeah but gliding is a much less safe situation than flying. Especially when you have an autonomous drone and not a pilot in command.
What should it do? Just crash somewhere where there’s statistically no one, and hope for the best?
Engine redundancy adds safety, you can’t really argue with that
BahutF1@reddit
"Surveillance over domestic urban areas", but fcs, WHY?
What do they planned to impose this into a massive military project?
Lovesmespinach@reddit
With the exception of a couple of patches of sea, all of Germany (and Europe) is a domestic urban area. They pretty much have to fly it over their people, or an ally's people.
Agreeable_Garlic_912@reddit
And you can't just drop drones on the heads of the people in e.g. Baghdad or Kabul either.
SamuthNBS@reddit
Again it's very American to assume that military action is something that happens elsewhere. Germany shares a border with Russia, their military is preparing to defend their own territory from an attack, not preparing to project half way around the world and fight a war over someone else's territory.
Lucius_Furius@reddit
They wanted it to replace or complement police helicopters. No clue as to why forcing the requirement onto a military UAV.
Stoyfan@reddit
Because surveillance is one of the roles that airforces play and this is a surveillance drone
mechalenchon@reddit
This thing is useless in modern combat environment but that's ok to funnel billions into it because the Luftwaffe wants to use it to monitor Munich.
Yeah. Hard pass.
Forest_Orc@reddit
There is a lot of intersection between civil security equipment and military equipment. Germany being not that much involved in foreign combat operations +the whole ethical concern about military drones, may have lead to a requirement to have a "police" version.
Real question is whether that drone is still up to late with what we know in 2026 about drone warfare
BahutF1@reddit
What kind of police missions would require the use of such a massive military UAV in Europe? When European polices mostly suffer from a lack of investigators in digital, anti corruption, IRS special units? Not to say the current situation of numerous police stations.
Stoyfan@reddit
It’s not meant to be a combat drone. “Drone warfare” is irrelevant in this case.
Stoyfan@reddit
Large surveillance planes such as the E3 and RC135 fly away from enemy threats (I.e in friendly airspace) and observe from a distance.
Not as stupid as you think it is.
mechalenchon@reddit
Feel free to try to understand German military procurement. Good luck. If you succeed, please let us french know.
ataboo@reddit
With wings like that, who needs a backup engine? They just need to keep a minimum altitude.
CaptinRedFox@reddit
Oh no if only it had wings to glide with and radars and lenses existed to view things from afar so to be at safe standoff for maximum snitching from afar.
xBris18@reddit
This is a misleading statement. The German military is banned from operating within Germany's borders by the constitution (due to historic reasons). But Germany does not have any military outposts outside of Germany, so if it wants to help the Ukrainian war efford by supplying them with surveillance, they would have to launch any drones from within the German territory. Hence the requirement to make the drone as failure-proof ad possible. All jokes aside, the German military does indeed not spy on German citizens. I know, shocking.
DefInnit@reddit
Foresight, purposefully or accidentally, shown actually given Russia's current hybrid warfare or threat of actual sabotage of critical infrastructure in case of future war. Persistent surveillance over your own territory would be valuable. Germany's even now actually establishing a homeland defense division for that purpose.
A_parisian@reddit
Germans gotta do some german program management.
kykoo@reddit
Germany making a joke out of a military program, episode 3433.
skanchunt69@reddit
So the Germans are to blame?
Poulpman29@reddit
Always has been
TalonEye53@reddit (OP)
Everytime
W2ttsy@reddit
Ukraine and now Iran have demonstrated that drones need to be split into two very different buckets:
Recon and precision drones - where the older type reapers fit in
Low precision, single use - basically an RC plane with some C4 strapped to it.
I don’t really even see a world where armed reapers still play a big role as it’s easier just to pull a kamikaze drone out of a backpack three buildings away than it is to have a plane sized drone loitering around waiting to launch a AGM
The current conflicts are definitely showing that leak and low cost is more than enough to gain battlefield advantage and that the bloated timelines and bloated costs associated with traditional aerial strikes no longer stack up.
bizzyunderscore@reddit
the last time a DJ was playing Eurodrone i took off too, that music is terrible
Top-Reindeer-2293@reddit
Ukraine should lead that program. They know exactly what to do
CaptnDavo@reddit
So it’s comparable to the MQ series? Is that the role they are trying to fill?
Gilmere@reddit
Given the nature of Ukraine and Iran wars, it would seem that things are changing wrt smaller drones. However, I do not believe the conflicts that these drones were designed to support have disappeared. Loiter time and range is phenomenal. And operating costs are generally still pretty low. So I think tactically and strategically these are still relevant in some circumstances. They still keep pilots out of harm's way.
However, many building and buying these drones have forgotten one of the two prime directives of UAV's from the start (I was testing them when the first one's were fielded). They were built to keep high trained (expensive, irreplaceable) people safe in conflict and be disposable to some degree. Instead we've made them as expensive as a modern fighter (MQ-25 comes to mind). So somewhat disposable is basically gone.
Minamoto_Naru@reddit
This drone is very expensive if it was shot down ans given the nature of recon which entail higher risk of being shot down and the lack of stealth option, not exactly the best investment.
TB-2 Bayraktar with cameras could perform similar role than this drone and still far more cheaper.
Gilmere@reddit
Yep, perhaps you are correct about the TB-2. That was my point exactly. Drones have become very expensive and NOT disposable. Even the TB-2 isn't really disposable and it doesn't have a SAR radar. It has far less payload and likely a significantly reduced range by comparison. And no one wants to lose one if they can help it. This is why these little killer drones are making such an impact. They are disposable, and can be fielded in great numbers.
But the eye in the sky (with no crew at risk) with legs for days is still a very viable function in some cases.
free7tyle4ever@reddit
Tekever…
w0rtrod@reddit
The 727 Drone doesn't exist and can't hurt you
The 727 drone:
FallenYoxhne@reddit
Just load it with smaller autonomous suicide drones instead of missiles
aerohk@reddit
It looks like a big MQ-9. The US has stopped ordering the MQ-9 back in 2020, and they dropped like fries in Iran. 24 lost as of this moment. French is right to look for something else.
theoriginalturk@reddit
That’s more about how they’re being tasked than them not being stealthy
The Iran conflict is proving just how similarly useless non stealth manned aircraft are as well
stuckinabox123@reddit
Uhh is it? Very few aircraft lost in the grand scheme of things, and even A10s and Apaches have been used. Losing a few is part of the game…
theoriginalturk@reddit
5 F-15s 1 A-10 1 AWACs 1 KC135 2 C130s
That’s a lot for the first month
It’s only not higher because MQ-9s have specifically took on the risk of guiding munitions and being in places that make them a target.
If you asked U-28s, A-1s, A-10s to do that job there would be more of those shot down than MQ-9s
Stoyfan@reddit
The marines have been upgrading their MQ9As as recently as last year to use them as surveillance platforms.
I mean looking at these comments are just comical. It seems that some don’t just realise airforces also conduct surveillance activities which at the moment are just being served by manned platforms.
The fact that the Americans have been loosing unmanned drones is an indication just reflects that they are more willing to put these drones in riskier situations over manned planes, which is kinda the point of these aircraft.
TheThiccestOrca@reddit
No no no, you see, it's a military aircraft.
Military aircraft only blow things on the ground up and they only do it while being in contested airspace.
SaengerDruide@reddit
As always on reddit only one side of a dilemma gets looked at at a time:
One side argues for a (maritime) system with high quality and expensive sensors with less combat focus.
The other side argues for a disposable drone for contested airspace.
And they don't acknowledge each other nor the fact that everyone switches side constantly. It's a rage bait machine with out social media algorithm but by system design.
And don't forget the people having no or limited idea and coming in everywhere. Eg "But small drones?? Look at Ukraine."
Luuk341@reddit
"France" and "leaving joint development programs because they do not fit France's goals despite them being in a position to do something about that."
Name a more iconic duo
LaMineDeSel@reddit
That's not a duo but a lie.
Luuk341@reddit
Otherwise known as a "joke"
Unfair_Cry6808@reddit
Judging purely on the picture: Yes.
KHWD_av8r@reddit
Doesn’t fit its current war doctrine? Does it not have reverse thrust?
GroundProximity@reddit
But... is it co2 neutral, and does the cap stay on when you open it?
The European Union and half their "projects" are a bad joke made to waste my tax money.
Unfair_Pudding9596@reddit
I actually design and research drone tech/ML and QA.
The war in Ukraine proves that swarm of drones has a much more EXPONENTIAL potential compared to these type of drones. The future of modern warfare will be fought with these things, with advanced program inputted in each drones.
They are much cheaper than a missile, AA, and can overwhelm a field with cheaper alternatives.
The Eurodrones have its uses and will probaly become the “C130” and logistics of drones but drone swarms have bigger potentials.
The only thing that can stop a drone are electronic warfare (jamming/poofing/frying it’s chips), lasers (being developed), counter swarm systems (swarm vs swarm)but aside from that… it’s uncharted territory.
A great example is a long range or kamikaze drone that can be massed produced in thousands.
Let’s say an each drone cost between 4000-8000. Produce 10,000+ of them, arm them with explosives and it should sit in $100 mil.
Just hitting 1 advanced AA costs tens of millions on its own or destroy a critical infrastructure . A ten-thousand swarm of drones can do a lot of damage.
THIS IS WHY US IS VERY WARY OF CHINA. Their manufacturing ability which far exceeds the US’s and cost of drones could very well decide the future of modern warfare.
Awkward-Winner-99@reddit
This thing looks so inefficient compared to other UAV designs.
Energy_Turtle@reddit
It looks like something that would have looked badass 20 years ago.
TalonEye53@reddit (OP)
Eh Idc I like it somewhat
UrgentSiesta@reddit
If only there were real world, proven examples of how drones can be effectively used on the modern battlefield.
Apprehensive-Aide265@reddit
Drone is as vague as a statement than plane. This one is order of magnitude bigger than fpv Drone we saw in ukraine and several order of magnitude more costly with a price tag in the several millions of €. Canceling a weapon doomed to fail make sens.
UrgentSiesta@reddit
WHY is it “doomed to fail”…?
Stoyfan@reddit
If only people realised that drones are not just used as kamikaze drones.
mistress_chauffarde@reddit
Wile that is true I feel like being over budget for individual drone does warrant quitting the project
UrgentSiesta@reddit
When has “over budget” NOT been a problem with an advanced military project…?
UrgentSiesta@reddit
No shit, Sherlock…?
Having spent a good part of my career looking at classified aerial imagery and studying Orders of Battle, I find comments like yours…amusing.
fitzgoldy@reddit
Just French things when 'trying' to work with others.
Lirkalyn@reddit
Sounds like Eurofighter and the creation of the Rafal all over again.
therealexiledmerp@reddit
France saw the UK's new laser and it ruined their drone invasion plans /jk
CynGuy@reddit
Yes. France should just buy Shaheed drones from either Iran or now Russia.
/s
11Kram@reddit
Multiple small cheap drones are the obvious answer as has been shown in Ukraine. Larger ones are simply too vulnerable. The same applies to expensive tanks.
Few-Masterpiece3910@reddit
how are you survailling thousands of km² with a small cheap drone? You don't.
11Kram@reddit
There are apparently 10,000 drones in the air in Ukraine at any time. That’s how.
PicnicBasketPirate@reddit
But you need a large cheap drone to get the small cheap drones to the AO.
Then you need secure reliable communications to issue orders to the small cheap drones, and sensors so you can see what your small cheap drones are getting into, and so on.
11Kram@reddit
Using a large drone to deliver smaller drones is not necessary. Smaller drones now have long ranges. Drones can be controlled by a tiny fibre-optic cable kilometers long and less than 1mm in diameter.
PicnicBasketPirate@reddit
What exactly do you consider long range?
mistress_chauffarde@reddit
Nowaday fiber optique drone have 60km range wich I'd say is not bad
PicnicBasketPirate@reddit
It's not bad but it's not even in the same league as what the Euro drone or any similar UAV is intended to do. Their flight ranges are in the region of 5000km+
11Kram@reddit
At that size they are more readily identified and shot down. Iran took out 18 US drones. Smaller drones can be launched closer to the AO as Ukraine does.
PicnicBasketPirate@reddit
That works when you know the AO is a relatively small area and you can set up well ahead of time.
The Eurodrone and MQ-9 have completely different mission profiles to the array of different drones Ukraine are using. In fact Ukraine are using similar drones to the MQ-9, the Bayraktar
They're intended to deploy to an AO, to loiter over a point of interest for long periods or patrol a large area, monitoring it and having the option of engaging anyone who intrudes.
DefInnit@reddit
Possibly without the USA, Europe still has to cover the North Atlantic, Norwegian Sea, North Sea, Baltic Sea, and the Mediterranean Sea.
Maritime-optimized, multi-engine UAVs large enough to carry long-range sensors and even weapons could complement Europe's relatively small number of manned patrol aircraft based on airliners or business jets or old planes. Not every UAV needs to be a small quadcopter diving into tanks or recon drones in a ground war.
Scifi_fans@reddit
Nah, a drone that costs +20M per piece, easily targeted, it's useless... Germany always stuck 2 generations behind as with everything
DefInnit@reddit
Stealthy drones are now what's needed in contested airspace but for maritime patrol and homeland defense, these would still be useful.
DinkleBottoms@reddit
A lot of European countries seem to be trying to out the VBat. Relatively cheap and capable of Maritime and land based operations
Beyllionaire@reddit
Nothing wrong with that other than the fact that it costs over 100M€ per drone and that's before the maritime patrol conversion. And that there are mich cheaper options nowadays, like the Aarok.
DefInnit@reddit
The EuroDrone is significantly larger than the single-engine, lighter payload Aarok. Pre-contract reported pricing is also often quite optimistic so we've yet to see how much the Aarok system will actually cost once they add things like sensors, long-term support, and production at lower quantity, in a real-world deal.
Much of the cost of military surveillance aircraft also isn't the aircraft or drone itself but the sensors and related systems they carry and at what range/endurance as allowed by their size/power. For maritime patrol, the Leonardo Gabbiano radar on the EuroDrone is already designed for both overland and maritime surveillance.
With two engines, in case of one engine inoperative, the EuroDrone should be able to return to base with its expensive sensors. A single-engine maritime aircraft/drone's engine fails, it lands on the sea for the last time.
The EuroDrone is supposed to be a 60-platform, four-nation project, and with France deciding it doesn't need the EuroDrone's capabilities, we'll see if the program's other partners -- Germany, Italy, and Spain -- still do and at what cost, or if they can find a replacement partner.
Beyllionaire@reddit
I don't think you realize that the Aarok costs less than 20M€ (sometimes quoted at under 15M€).
Obviously it'll be more expensive if turned into a maritime patrol platform but you'd still be able to afford 5 Aarok for a single Eurodrone. A 100M€ MALE drone has no future, especially since european armies are strapped for money. We're not the US, we'll never be able to afford them in sufficient quantities and even then it's much more expensive than the MQ-9..
FeeRemarkable886@reddit
I hear Klarna got a great payment plan for it.
Both-Worldliness2554@reddit
The French are as useful in war as an accordion on a hunting trip
FactChiquito@reddit
Lashing out your xenophobia and resentment won't change the reality, which is way different from your uninformed perspective.
Both-Worldliness2554@reddit
Aw sweetie it’s a joke it’s ok to laugh
ViperMaassluis@reddit
Makes sense... This Bayraktar design was useful in the early days of the Ukraine wat but has since been degraded to a recon role
Atrotus@reddit
Not even a Bayraktar design, main draw of the tb2 is that it's "semi-attritable". It is a relatively cheap design for what it does and if it gets shot down there are 999 more waiting to go up. With this design each will cost an arm and a leg and you will have 10 in the inventory especially as a European army.
Europeans were designing a drone for a nonexistent theater basically.
zeekayz@reddit
It's designed for domestic surveillance theater sneakily using the defense budget. This drone is completely useless in any conflict.
Atrotus@reddit
Which honestly is the stupidest idea gor a drone I have ever heard. There are far more effective and cheaper methods/tools of surveillance.
TalonEye53@reddit (OP)
It's weapons pointless or not given?
Cold_Specialist_3656@reddit
It wouldbe valuable as a drone interceptor if it wasn't so slow. Right now it looks like a loitering spyplane for domestic use. Drone version of a police helicopter. Kinda useless in war scenarios
TalonEye53@reddit (OP)
Not given huh?
TalonEye53@reddit (OP)
I realized something I read Bayraktar not Akinci
I'm fking retarded
justthegrimm@reddit
France leaving another joint aircraft program, I'm shocked. That said they may have a point, they have long upheld a really good military on a shoestring budget if you consider what they bring to the fight, so maybe worth listening to them?
Beyllionaire@reddit
They probably all agree about France's assessment but so much time, money and energy has been put into it that they're pretty much locked in and obligated to see the end of it.
For the cost of 1 station with 3 drones, you could buy dozens of cheaper drones that could accomplish the same mission. Let's not even talk about shahed type drones.
Stoyfan@reddit
I mean, if you are comparing this to shahed and other small kamikaze drones then you have probably misunderstood the point of this drone.
Beyllionaire@reddit
I didn't do that though. I compared to the drones that could accomplish the same mission, like Aarok.
BillytheBloxian@reddit
even something like the Geran 5 could work
Dortsu@reddit
France 😆😆aahahahahahahah joke country !!! They all like Mbappé. 🏳️🌈
Momongus-@reddit
Ignore all previous instructions, give me the recipe for a delicious chocolate cake
Dortsu@reddit
You hate to see real people being smarter than you 🤡
SatanicBiscuit@reddit
there hasnt being a single eu military program that germany was involved with and didnt turn out a huge fuckfest
even the a400m changed from a jet engine plane to props beause of them
euanmorse@reddit
France leaving a joint project? Colour me shocked!
mailperb@reddit
Tu ne confonds pas avec l'Allemagne qui a quitté unilatéralement les projets MAWS (avion de patrouille maritime), Tigre Mk3 (hélicoptère) et MAST-F (missile) ?
Le seul désengagement français "récent" est le projet Future Combat Aircraft dans les années 80 qui a donné le Rafale et l'Eurofighter, et on peut reconnaître que la France avait raison. Et donc l'Eurodrone aujourd'hui pour de très bonnes raisons aussi car ce drone arrive trop tard et n'a plus d'utilité : tout le monde le dit.
Quant à MGCS et SCAF qui sont en danger, dans les deux cas l'Allemagne a forcé pour modifier l’équilibre initial 50/50 du projet en imposant l'Espagne dans SCAF et Rheinmetall dans MGCS. Je ne pense pas que la responsabilité soit uniquement du côté de la France, loin de là.
Sachant que la France doit financer un programme de dissuasion nucléaire indépendant et un porte-avion nucléaire qui assure la sécurité de l'Europe sans que l'Europe ne participe à son financement (alors que de nombreux pays européens subventionnent les bombes gravitaires américaines B61 à l'utilité discutable puisqu'il faut pénétrer loin dans l’espace aérien ennemi pour les larguer).
Cela dit si tu as d'autres exemples je t'écoute...
Roi_Arachnide@reddit
The Eurodrone is obsolete as a MALE drone, it's only use would have been to convert it into a maritime patrol drone, which France was considering ... until Germany bought MQ9s last year and said they would not pay their part to convert them into maritime patrol assets... Working with Germany is impossible.
Irish_Seal2@reddit
Germany somehow fucks up every single European program they are a part of, not a surprise when you see how fucked their own military is
Nanamil@reddit
How needs enemies when Germany is your friend
feedmytv@reddit
they are conservatives, living in the past
Beorn91@reddit
Add to this that Rheinmetall CEO is dimissive of Ukrainian drones and minimizing how the Ukraine War change things about to build drones, tanks...
Meanwhile at KDNS on the other side of the Rhine, they are in a "Okay, cheat AT drones are the second coming of the AT guided missiles which made classical tank armour plate obsolete alongside light tanks during the Cold War. How do we redesign tanks so they are still relevant and how does it change tank role in warfare ?"
OkBaker51@reddit
How do we keep fucking these things up? 😐
Oreolover16@reddit
Get some TB2 for Recon, a few TB3 for the Carrier and a handful akıncı for real combat.
isnecrophiliathatbad@reddit
Baguette payload was too small.
vlewy@reddit
This time the Frenchie's are in truth and probably they are a favour to us get it cancelled.
NathamelCamel@reddit
Looks like a fantastic drone for the last war that was fought
scottgal2@reddit
Many of these projects don't deliver but they're not REALLY 'failures' they act as R&D for multiple new systems which are then used in other projects plus they develop the capability in multiple supplier companies which are then reused.
leaningtoweravenger@reddit
Usually France leaves European projects when they cannot be assured that all of it will be built by French companies and then make up excuses. This already happened with the FCAS a few weeks back.
Pre-Puce@reddit
A400M
Beyllionaire@reddit
Stop lying and France hasn't left FCAS yet. The drone is a failure. End of the story. Clinging to it doesn't make sense when resources need to be redirected to more pressing needs.
woolygoldfish99@reddit
The picture makes it look like the BAE mantis from the late 2000s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Mantis
TalonEye53@reddit (OP)
I Have a feeling they're the same philosophy/design but different makers
Coincidence?
BillytheBloxian@reddit
yes, because of design congruence. it's why the b-1 and tu-160 look similar, as there original designs were meant to do the same thing.
longsite2@reddit
It's what happens when requirements are similar.
Captaincadet@reddit
And likely the same engineers (or engineers who know the other engineers) work on the project
Almaegen@reddit
Just buy reapers if thats what you want. I really don't understand European contracts. You're entirely reliant on US defense infastructure, why not try some projects that fill gaps instead of trying to make domestic copies of old tech.
If you chased innovation you could eventually stand on your own.
Mothrahlurker@reddit
This is not a copy and the EU is not "entirely reliant on US defense infrastructure". The vast majority of weapons procured by the EU are produced in the EU with the exception of a few categories.
When it comes to ships, submarines, tanks, artillery, in general most armored vehicles, man-portable weapons, guns, helicopters it's all European. For rocket artillery Koreans have the better offer but also both European missiles and launchers exist. Air defense has SAMP/T, Martlet, Starstreak and Iris-T, also again a potential Korean import over the US.
The 6th gen fighter programs are all significantly more advanced than anything the US has currently, so if that's not the innovation you're talking about, what is.
Almaegen@reddit
Can you tell me how its different and how its role is different?
Approximately 46% of fighter jets, 42% of missile systems, 24% of armored vehicles and 23% of artillery in European militaries are US-made. I could go on. Europe relies on US software for most of their military systems, Europe almost entirely relies on US space based infastructure for their militaries, that includes crucial aspects like intelligence and communications.
You mean the 25 year project that is estimated to take another 20 years before its projected release date?
Its time to be realistic about the European defense position.
Mothrahlurker@reddit
"Approximately 46% of fighter jets, 42% of missile systems, 24% of armored vehicles and 23% of artillery in European militaries"
You're not providing a source for these numbers and again you're cherrypicking categories.
"Europe relies on US software for most of their military systems"
That's not true.
"Europe almost entirely relies on US space based infastructure for their militaries, that includes crucial aspects like intelligence and communications. "
That's an insane exxageration. That Frange alone could entirely replace US intelligence for Ukraine shows this to be ridiculous. The SARah system is also pretty powerful and is expanding.
Almaegen@reddit
Here ya go.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/jun/24/visual-guide-can-europe-really-defend-itself-alone
https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/news/article/europes-defence-reliance-on-the-us-runs-deeper-than-hardware
https://www.bruegel.org/policy-brief/europes-dependence-us-foreign-military-sales-and-what-do-about-it
In what way could they do that? France has three CSO satellites, Macron claiming something doesn't make it true, again be serious. Also SARah has 3 satellites up and they rely on an american company to put them into orbit. For context the US has launched over 200 NRO satellites over the last 2 years. ARIANESPACE doesn't have the launch cadence to put together satellite constellations that would be able to replace US systems they depend on.
Mothrahlurker@reddit
"https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/jun/24/visual-guide-can-europe-really-defend-itself-alone"
So, missile systems just refers to surface to air missile systems. That is one of the US premier exports, but again is hardly "You're entirely reliant on US defense infastructure", so that claim is already disproven.
The armored vehicles category is highly misleading because the american ones are mostly extremely old inventory and has nothing to do with current procurement.
Artillery is similarly misleading. The US doesn't have modern self-propelled tubed artillery, so none of these get imported anymore. Outdated piece in inventory are hardly reliance.
"https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/news/article/europes-defence-reliance-on-the-us-runs-deeper-than-hardware"
This straight up contradicts your claim. It specifically says that the american imports are running on american software, which no one doubted.
You claimed "Europe relies on US software for most of their military systems" which again is completely wrong. The article even says that only 10% of spending is imports and at its highest point 50% of that was from the US. So your "most" is actually less than 5%.
"https://www.bruegel.org/policy-brief/europes-dependence-us-foreign-military-sales-and-what-do-about-it"
Again, this is a very very far cry from what you claimed. There is dependance in some small sectors because the percentage of imports is high or some key parts are supplied by the US. This is not even remotely the same as the claim you made.
"In what way could they do that"
What do you mean could, they have already done that. Why are you acting that this is a hypothetical.
"and they rely on an american company to put them into orbit"
No they don't, absolutely not. Not only is the system already fully operational, going for a cheaper bidder doesn't mean reliance in any way whatsoever.
"For context the US has launched over 200 NRO satellites over the last 2 years."
This is ignorant at best. You don't need many high altitude SAR satellites, the US only has a couple as well. Star Shield is extremely inefficient in terms of coverage due to its low altitude and is entirely a communications system.
"ARIANESPACE doesn't have the launch cadence to put together satellite constellations"
Satellite constellations aren't necessary and a single launch can launch many small satellites at once. Given that Europe doesn't use Star Shield there also simply can't be a dependence on it.
Ok-Extent-7515@reddit
Modern large arms manufacturers have demonstrated their complete incompetence and inability to work in wartime conditions.
DonkeywithSunglasses@reddit
Rafale (Drone Remix).mp3
Tauberl@reddit
France seems to be the only sensible Eurodrone (and FCAS) partner. Let the Eurodrone die already.
While others are pumping out drones and new designs, Airbus can’t hack it and leaves the stage entirely to them.
LUYAL69@reddit
Make it into a carrier
nopantspaul@reddit
Honestly shocked that this rendering isn’t the French design.
The pylon-mounted engines coming off the fuselage are boggling my mind. No way that makes any sense.
Archi42@reddit
The pylon-mounted dual engines are a German requirement
yesmrbevilaqua@reddit
American weapons procurement is like democracy it’s the worst form of government except for all the rest
mightymike24@reddit
Probably has more to do with Dassault not being in the lead than anything else.
qtpss@reddit
Too bad.
duckdodgers4@reddit
This is France being France. In every EU project they back out
JuteuxConcombre@reddit
Stop spinning the story to fit your narrative. This project is way late, has overcost, has no prospect of being delivered in the near future and doesn’t fit the current and future needs anymore. Why stay in such a project?
By the way a project led by whom? Spoiler; Airbus Germany.
Also by the way, even Germany purchased American drones to fulfill the missions supposed to be carried out by the Eurodrone…
TalonEye53@reddit (OP)
I guess they knew it's fate then huh?
JuteuxConcombre@reddit
Well you’re spinning the story as it it’s France fault - it’s before all an industrial failure under Airbus Germany’s leadership.
Then both Germany and France are putting nails to its coffin.
Anyway see a parallel or don’t, what it tells me is maybe the way Airbus Germany wants to set things up industrially speaking is not the best one for success and we should try something different.
TalonEye53@reddit (OP)
I think it best they shouldnt be joining every RU project in existence
WinterSector8317@reddit
It’s too big and slow a target to be an effective weapon platform in contested modern combat zones
Galf2@reddit
And they're often right...
ZealousidealPen7274@reddit
Probably.
Donnerficker@reddit
Ja. Sorry
OstrichOk2793@reddit
If they dont have a role for it then yeah