Why don't companies making commercial Linux distros/FOSS projects just charge money for using the package repos?
Posted by cacatl@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 38 comments
They technically don't even have to make the source code available on the Internet, per the GPL, if I'm not mistaken. Why don't distro makers just charge money for binary "goods" and make the raw materials accessible?
nightblackdragon@reddit
Red Hat already do that. You need subscription to access their repositories on Red Hat Enterprise Linux but because of GPL nothing stops you from using source to make RHEL compatible distribution and this is what projects like Rocky Linux and Alma Linux are doing.
cacatl@reddit (OP)
I did not know. I only pay attention to stuff like Oracle Solaris. Their repos are open to anyone, and also are Oracle Linux's. But Solaris cannot be used in production without a support license if I'm not mistaken. So Oracle Linux exists because they're trying to break RHEL's revenue model? I can only surmise that's what they're trying to do, along with using a more updated Linux kernel with drivers for the newest hardware.
carlwgeorge@reddit
Pretty much.
https://dissociatedpress.net/2023/07/12/red-hat-and-the-clone-wars-v-oracle-linux-origins/
finbarrgalloway@reddit
Solaris basically only exists to serve as life support for legacy systems that haven’t been able to get an upgrade yet. It hasn’t really been actively developed for like a decade, and I don’t think oracle really has any ideas of it being a cash cow.
Apprehensive_Milk520@reddit
Aside from the fact that charging a fee rails against the very fabric of a free and open source philosophy, terms and conditions change once a free service transmutes to a paid service. Much more is involved, legally and financially, for the party charging for the service. Terms and conditions change as well for the party paying for the service.
IMHO, charging for GNU/Linux would be to stifle innovation. Without GNU/Linux, the internet would be completely unrecognizable... insomuch as performance and resilience... in that case, we might as well still be using 56k dialups... or maybe even just 28k... lol...
cacatl@reddit (OP)
You are incorrect. I used Linux a decade ago, and I've read a lot about the FSF's philosophy back then. They were never against commercialization, or strong proponents of "free as in beer", at their very beginning. They have removed their original philosophy from the Internet obviously, along with Richard Stallman's legacy, after his perverse beliefs came to light. Open source was not dominated by poor people. It was dominated by people who were raised in at least the upper middle class who hated corporate management structure which they saw as being too conservative. The "masochists" as I saw people call them back then on IRC and such, and also on YouTube today, were "trolls", and were generally pretty dangerous people to speak to unless you were anonymous. As I remember, for some miraculous reason, the last time Trump was president of the US, these people vanished en masse, and the poorer people who were enslaved by their lies and falsehoods were freed after their true, self centered colors were shown.
Apprehensive_Milk520@reddit
Wow - that is quite an opinion you have there, and it is your right to have it.
Fact is, things get ugly fast when the two become intertwined - proprietary and open source.
Have you perhaps forgotten SCO vs IBM?
cacatl@reddit (OP)
Proprietary is not the same as commercial. "Proprietary" insinuates that intellectual property rights are reserved, and modifying and redistributing the software is not allowed. Companies can charge money for software, regardless of proprietary or open source licensing, unless the license does not permit it, for example in the case of some creative commons licenses. In the case of the GPL, there is no clause stating commercial distribution is against its policies. You mention the word "proprietary", which I did not use, and are falsely asserting that I have an opinion I do not have, nor did I give any indication that I did.
Apprehensive_Milk520@reddit
You have a different point of view. The world in which I spent my employment time (which is where most people are likely spend theirs), as well as my experience with clients during my 25 years in business as a consultant, proprietary and commercial were essentially one in the same, and that's how most lay people would understand it. Free open source, GNU/Linux, however you would like to label any aspect of that particular world, and the inane number of licenses as well as the distinction between them and all their many iterations, were non existent. Such software were viewed as unsafe, unacceptable, and a PIA to track and/or explain during a compliance audit. And for many, "free" was an absolute no-no and not allowed - period. If you pay for something, though, regardless its nature, then that's acceptable. The terms and conditions of the purchase or subscription are clear and concise, and different from those of "free" software. If it's paid, the seller is obligate (to one extent or another) - if it's free then they are not. Perhaps not absolutely, but close enough to be.
Redhat would be considered acceptable because you have to pay for a subscription. If you pay for something, it has to be safe - at least, that's how lay people look at it.
And as far as most (certain) businesses are concerned? If you pay for it, it's proprietary, If you don't pay for it, then it's free, and if it's free then there has to be a catch, or it's been concocted by a hacker, or it will blow up your systems, steal your firstborn - it's evil incarnate and grounds for expulsion.
In any case such as above, the distinction between proprietary and commercial just isn't acknowledged. It rolls like this - if it is commercial it isn't free, if it's proprietary it isn't free. Interchangeable in their eyes. And free open source is not a thing, and certainly not allowed. There are exceptions to every rule, but I did not have a single client that allowed free open source software. You either paid for an onsite license, or you paid for subscription user licenses. The particulars of the licensing didn't matter, at least not in their minds. And if you were caught breaking with compliance, you were in deep trouble, or got walked out the door.
My clients had no idea that I used GNU/Linux and free open source software - most probably would have sent me packing if they knew. Had they understood, of course, what any of that was in the first place. Only IT would understand something like that - and IT was always a woefully overworked minority. The staff making the decisions on what software systems to purchase or subscribe to, nothing they would consider was open source. And sadly enough, the people I sold systems to, there was nothing available open source that existed which was powerful enough or could meet most of their needs in one system without having to add on this, that or the other thing. Even then nothing even come close to proprietary,
So - terminology can be subjective, even when it comes to apples and oranges. But, that's just my take. That I have retained my sanity in any measure after all my years in business is purely a wonder.
Sorry - think I went off the rails a bit there, lol...
stiggg@reddit
„per the GPL“ they have to make the source code available.
cacatl@reddit (OP)
And that doesn't have to be the Internet. Technically all you have to do is make it available, and give knowledge of the means in the distribution method. As in, you can even tell users the only way to get the source is for you to snail it to them at their address.
Far_Calligrapher1334@reddit
Do you have an actual lawyers opinion on that claim? Because the licence itself is ambigous about it to me as a layman, but it does state several things that can be seen as going against that.
Fred2620@reddit
Then you potentially have a worse product than competitors, and people simply won't buy what you sell.
cacatl@reddit (OP)
Well, that doesn't sound like a realistic perspective, as products can vary in quality and completeness.
gordonmessmer@reddit
„per the GPL“ they have to make the source code available to their customers.
You're missing the important bit at the end. The GPL does not require publishing source code to anyone other than to the people who are receiving executable versions of the software.
WorldFrequent1048@reddit
GPL actually requires source code to be available to anyone who receives the binary, but companies can still charge for access to their repos or support services. Red Hat does something similar with RHEL - you get source but paid subscription for updates and support
A3883@reddit
That has nothing to do with it tbh. The repos are some servers in the internet you download packages from, they could just make it so that is behind a paywall. There wouldn't have to be anything closed source.
Crazy-Tangelo-1673@reddit
available gratis? or just available
kaptnblackbeard@reddit
As soon as you charge money for something you own certain responsibilities for it. Developing something as a community and making it free, distributes those responsibilities or completely nullifies them whilst also building in resilience and redundancy.
Capitalism is the curse, not FOSS.
necrophcodr@reddit
Paying for something isn't capitalism. Capitalism includes and works well with that, but payment using a representation of value is not what capitalism is, and is applicable to other economic systems too.
Basic_Fall_2759@reddit
Well since food isn’t free, how do you imagine software developers to feed themselves and still have open source software exist?
Ezmiller_2@reddit
So how did USSR outlast capitalism? Oh that's right. How about your boss not pay you?
Ok-Winner-6589@reddit
Have you seen Google? They live from open source.
Or a better example, red Hat or even Oracle
kopsis@reddit
With any object code they "convey" they must at least include an offer to provide the corresponding source code. Because of that, there's very little to prevent someone for setting up an identical repository that is available free of charge.
That's exactly what led to CentOS and now Alma and Rocky Linux distros -- all of which are binary-compatible clones of RHEL. It's hard to make money selling a product that others give away for free. To succeed (as Redhat has) you have to add value in some way, not just hide your stuff behind a paywall.
joeysundotcom@reddit
Well, the F in FOSS does stand for "free"....
TerribleReason4195@reddit
In freedom of course!
LordAnchemis@reddit
Commercial sponsored Linux distros use the freemium model - where there is usually 2 tiers - like fedora v RHEL
gordonmessmer@reddit
Fedora is not a free RHEL, nor is it a different tier of RHEL.
source: a Fedora maintainer.
powerslave_fifth@reddit
Because they want users?
A3883@reddit
nobody would use that
cacatl@reddit (OP)
Well, considering how many package maintainers get pwned there probably might be a market for guarantees, at least in the git library world.
PaperDoom@reddit
guarantees are an enterprise thing. any individual maintainer is never going to do it because it comes with legal liability. this is why RHEL exists and why it is so often picked for enterprise.
Ok-Winner-6589@reddit
Red Hat enterprise Linux?
First of all why would a Desktop user go to a not very well known distros which has a paywall? And second why would people using a distro change It for that one?
It works on enterprise because you offer support. Not for desktop
CardOk755@reddit
Because NOBODY would use their shit.
arades@reddit
That's literally how proxmox works. You can download it, install it, and use community ran repos for free, but the repo with enterprise support and validation you have to pay for a key to access.
LuckySage7@reddit
users enjoy free (as in beer) stuff? ... I personally think it's that simple lol.
Gone2theDogs@reddit
Why doesn't Free and open-source software charge?
The short answer would be that it stops being free.
TurnAffectionate5728@reddit
unspoken rule, i guess