JUSTICE: NZXT, Fragile to Pay $3,450,000 for Rental PC Scam
Posted by Antonis_32@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 95 comments
Posted by Antonis_32@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 95 comments
Renricom@reddit
People always forget that this is not just about the immoral renting issues, but the fact hat they secretly lowered the specs of the PCs when you switched from buying to renting on their website (which is at least attempted fraud).
SatanicRiddle@reddit
no they didnt do it secretly
I remember that video because it was one of the first that felt like GN was fishing for outrage...
yes they named ubergamerator-machine or whatever but specs were definitly listed, just that same name had different spec for selling and renting. It was not hidden in any way.
Ok-Entertainer-1414@reddit
If they weren't doing anything wrong then why are they paying out $3.5 million
Ok-Parfait-9856@reddit
Dumb question but how did they change the specs? Wasn’t it a rent to own type of thing? Or am I getting that wrong
phire@reddit
That's a large part of the problem. It wasn't rent to own, you ended up having to pay rental fees forever (or until you returned the computer). A true subscription PC.
Yet the way they advertised it didn't make it clear that it wasn't rent to own, used the same language as most rent-to-own schemes and made it really easy for customers to assume it was rent to own.
So it was a completely different fleet of computers, not just rent-to-own financing tacked onto their existing PC building service, using slightly older parts they had left over.
BTW, better hope you kept all the packaging, or otherwise how are you going to return? And you couldn't even keep the HDD with your data on it, providing another roadblock to easy returns.
AHrubik@reddit
If memory serves on the website you’d select a product to rent that listed certain specs and then during checkout the specs would surreptitiously change without any notification.
Griswo27@reddit
But that's illegal
bogglingsnog@reddit
Not if they say in the small print on the contract that hardware shipped is subject to availability and the next closest system available will be shipped instead...
Canadian_Border_Czar@reddit
Hey man, ive got a contract for toilet paper for you.
Supply concerns? No worries dude, weve got a healthy stock of sandpaper just incase.
bogglingsnog@reddit
exactly my point! Until consumer protection is enforced the customers get fcked.
InfiniteTree@reddit
Depends whether they ever actually shipped the listed specs. If they did 90% of the time and 10% got lower that clause is probably fine.
If they only ever shipped lower specs then that's illegal (at least here in Australia). We have a consumer law that states businesses are not allowed to engage in any conduct that could be misleading or deceptive.
That law is used on an individual level to remediate consumers via Tribunal (cheap, self represented, accessible, essentially small claims court) or civil court.
It's also used by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) to take action against businesses and fine them.
bogglingsnog@reddit
Oh, of course! Just saying they often have a small seemingly unobtrusive loophole that lets them get out of liability.
Lelldorianx@reddit
Ignoring that this doesn't actually change it from being a bait-and-switch, the contract didn't say that.
pmjm@reddit
Probably not illegal to the point where you'll get state or federal governments going after them, because they displayed the specs that you were getting prior to your agreement of the terms.
But it's extremely deceptive and unethical, and I'm glad they were called out for it.
The advertising strategies were also quite predatory.
pawlakbest@reddit
You can rent lower specs PC, win Fortnite tournament and then buy higher specs one. It's that simple! /s
NycAlex@reddit
i have stopped watching any GN content for almost 2 years as his channel has become a "doom and gloom" farm as of late
but gotta give credit where its due, Steve and his team have done a huge service to consumers with this.
coldbreweddude@reddit
Have they? How many people actually are affected by this? Fifty? It’s nothing. And the payout is nothing.
MrMoussab@reddit
Hasn't the PC building landscape been mostly doom and gloom lately?
pythonic_dude@reddit
Arrow lake refresh wasn't exactly exciting, but it felt nice because of how awesome the pricing was. Until the price bump. And then another price bump. And with another price bump planned.
imaginary_num6er@reddit
Let’s be real. It was never the real MSRP and just a paper launch at that price.
Tasty-Traffic-680@reddit
Yeah but that doesn't change the fact that Steve can be a bombastic ass who's personality wears on you like the guy at a party who never shuts up.
cbrec@reddit
As opposed to you who sounds like a blast to be around at a party…😂😂
Tasty-Traffic-680@reddit
I don't need personality, I sell cocaine.
MrMoussab@reddit
He's a YouTuber, his job is to not shut up.
Tasty-Traffic-680@reddit
Yes, he's quite good at it. His miltiple half-hour plus videos prove that point.
slowro@reddit
Thank goodness you don't have to watch.
Tasty-Traffic-680@reddit
I watch bits and pieces of his investigative stuff. Just because Steve comes off as a twat waffle sometimes isn't the end of the world. They still break a lot of interesting and important stories. It's like if Walter Cronkite had long hair and wore journalism themed t-shirts.
howmanyavengers@reddit
You're getting downvoted by the mob but you're not wrong.
Steve and his team are very good at what they do, especially when it comes to investigative journalism, but my god his personality as a presenter can be so abrasive and it makes it very difficult to watch their content sometimes, even though I very much enjoy what they're talking about.
makingwands@reddit
Yeah I too find it hard to listen to the snippy commentary. Like listening to a script from an ai model trained entirely on the pcmasterrace subreddit.
With that being said, GN still provides content that is of great service to the community. Their hardware reviews pretty much set the bar and continue to improve. Their recent reviews of the latest crop of Intel cpus were excellent.
Tasty-Traffic-680@reddit
(insert DiCaprio pointing meme)
Yeah, what they said much more eloquently than I
Laggiter97@reddit
Shame that you're getting downvoted. If you overlook the non-stop doomposting and making 10 videos about the same thing, they have some interesting content at times. But Steve just makes it unwatchable, the pretentious smartassery gets annoying very quick.
S1cS3mperTyrannis@reddit
That's a YOU problem not Steve problem.
Tasty-Traffic-680@reddit
Lol. Y'all can keep dickriding if you want, it makes no difference to me.
zakats@reddit
Trash take
Tasty-Traffic-680@reddit
Hey, if you want to felate the man's ego or otherwise then that's on you. Sorry I don't like the things you like.
rs426@reddit
On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, I don’t need someone to yell at me about it for 40 minutes at a time in every video
inyue@reddit
Besides expensive ram, what dooms and gloomns do we have?
smile_e_face@reddit
Expensive GPUs, expensive SSDs, expensive flash. CPU prices on the rise, as well. Entire companies shifting their business model from the consumer market to B2B. Seemingly every part of the industry being reorganized to support a speculative bubble of a technology that, so far, has yet to produce anything of substantial value to normal people, yet managed to do a lot to benefit the emerging corpo-political surveillance state oligarchy.
I don't know, man. Maybe I'm just a downer but things seem pretty...down.
yugedowner@reddit
It provides plenty of value for normal people
Best_VDV_Diver@reddit
Yeah, but monitors have really came down in price.
See it all balances out!!!
Annales-NF@reddit
Yay!
kuddlesworth9419@reddit
You forgot increase in hard drive prices as well.
smile_e_face@reddit
Knew I was forgetting one.
kuddlesworth9419@reddit
At least you can pick up cameras and lenses for a good price these days. Might be a good time for people to switch hobbies to photography instead.
smile_e_face@reddit
Aren't the memory cards or whatever really expensive now, too? Because of the SSD shortage?
kuddlesworth9419@reddit
I forgot about that. Yea the prices have gone up to silly prices now. I got my 128GB SD card for £70 or so last year, it's overkill really for how I use it but now those cards are £240. You could easily make do with a 32GB card though for a 24mp or a 48mp camera I should think. Unless you are burst firing photos all the time or doing long video recordings. But I bet you could still make it work. I think those cards are much more reasonably priced.
S1cS3mperTyrannis@reddit
Lavender program and all the evil corps involved with it so i hope that Steve is brave enougth to make a video about that.
jigsaw1024@reddit
Expensive RAM. GPU's priced over MSRP both at launch and well after launch, and longer product cycles. Expensive SSDs. Expensive HDDs. Price increases on CPUs.
Canceled products due to all the above. (Nvidia Supers standout here)
Product shortages for: RAM, SSD, HDD, GPU, CPU as well in consumer land.
Poor product support.
More products failing higher than norms :12v connector, ASRock + AMD X3D chips, Intel 13th & 14th gen degradation issues
That's just from memory, I'm sure there is more that has made the consumer/enthusiast PC space generally poor for the past few years.
imaginary_num6er@reddit
People are excited about new AM5 B840 boards /s
Jofzar_@reddit
Agreed, I mostly watch hardware unboxed for their analytical videos/release videos and LTT for their "content" videos with optimum being the instant lock watch asap.
snollygoster1@reddit
Have they even used their fan tester that much? I was looking forward to that content and instead they just started to churn out "takedown" videos. They've made one singular video about testing fans, and the majority of their videos these days are just bad news.
Lelldorianx@reddit
Most recently, we used it in the HAVN BF 360 review and the Noctua x Antec Flux Pro review. It is also in our next case review coming up.
snollygoster1@reddit
I guess that's why I haven't seen it. I've been running a Lian Li Lancool 2 since 2020, and just haven't looked at other cases. I have looked at fans and end up just buying Thermalright's TL-B Extrem series.
MumrikDK@reddit
The market hasn't exactly been flooded with exciting new releases in this time.
avboden@reddit
He brought attention to it but had zero to do with the lawsuit or this settlement.
sniperwhg@reddit
Average /r/hardware comment. Confident assertion, didn't watch the video for the first two minutes or even take the due diligence to view the class action filed.
Here's the direct link, you can select the main document "complaint" to view the PDF of the originally filed class action. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/71033918/burns-v-fragile-inc/
GN is referenced for the evidence they reported on over a dozen times. You can scroll down and see the progression of the case through time by scrolling downwards.
WildVelociraptor@reddit
Direct link to the PDF:
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/71033918/1/burns-v-fragile-inc/#pdf
WTFAnimations@reddit
The actual work he and his team do, such as NZXT, EKWB or Asus, are all good and promote transparency and accountability.
The shit about "The death of the personal computer" just sounds like he is clickbaiting. There are many companies in the computing space with a lot of power and money who do not want to get rid of it.
WildVelociraptor@reddit
I mean the PC is a dying niche. A massive number of people do the majority of their "computing" on a phone, or maybe a tablet.
And then you look at the performance gains of SoC designs that can dedicate a zillion channels to RAM, reducing the need for a dedicated GPU.
Of course the PC market won't die. But it's heyday is long past.
S1cS3mperTyrannis@reddit
Yeah instead "The death of the personal computer" a more apropiate title will be "The death of the ENTIRE PLANET" because that is the only possible outcome of "infinite growth" as shareholders demands.
TopdeckIsSkill@reddit
Wchich one with more power than nvidia, microsoft,amazon etc. ?
Also it's not really that much a theory anymore. Since covid the hardware prices are always a rollercoaster
WTFAnimations@reddit
Then... Why do Nvidia still operate in the consumer sector? Why does Microsoft still make Surface devices and Xboxes?
Apart from that, convice Apple, HP, Lenovo, Dell and bunch of other companies to throw away their business and decades of R&D. Or the mobile phone manufacturers. Or the console companies.
jnf005@reddit
The consumer side are more like extra to them, Microsoft surface and other OEM you listed has their big bucks in corporate orders, they keep the consumer business because they sell the same product more expensive per unit to us, the corporate side just move vastly more of them. If demand on the corporate side out weights the consumer side, they won't hesitate to shut them down, just look at Micron and Crucial.
qtx@reddit
PCs will never go away. Why? Because businesses depend on them.
As long as there are businesses then the PC hobbyist market will continue to exist.
All these weird people saying the PC will die are just people that thrive on everything being doom and gloom.
Annales-NF@reddit
But can they maintain their business and decent prices in such an environment?
Framed-Photo@reddit
I'm still subscribed, but haven't been consuming the content nearly as much for a similar reason. I'm just not usually in the mood to watch another "everything sucks" video, even if I think the videos themselves are important.
I really do think it's a good direction for their channel all the same, because what's the point in even covering most hardware releases these days? GPU releases barely happen and are often mediocre at best. CPU releases don't matter if ram and storage cost this much too.
Caffdy@reddit
they are youtubers, if you've been following these channels for the last 10 years or so, you'd have noticed that in-between releases from AMD/Intel/Nvidia (which mean years apart) they don't really have much content to work with. I'm talking about most of tech tubers, not just GN. They need to find their niche and create content, that's all there is
Framed-Photo@reddit
They used to have a lot more content to work with way back when. Releases were more frequent, prices were more reasonable so there was more of a reason to review some of the things that they did, etc.
I get the pivot, it's just not usually the kind of content I watch in long form YouTube videos.
WildVelociraptor@reddit
Same, I don't fault them for making other content when there's practically no new hardware being released anymore. And what is released is difficult to use since RAM and storage prices are insane.
But I definitely don't watch like I used to, because I've got enough things in the world to fret over.
S1cS3mperTyrannis@reddit
Everything sucks because most people are cowards,hipocrites or too lazy and GREEDY (Yeah i know about that 401k American thing depends on big corpo market cap) to do something about that and Steve and his team are just infoming people about all this so the only reason to hate on him is just congnitive dissonance.
Framed-Photo@reddit
I'm not hating on him, I just also happen to consume news in a lot of places and have no interest most of the time in also watching long form YouTube videos about it too.
SpaceDandye@reddit
Yeah hate always drives engagement. I just don't care enough about these shitty companies
justgord@reddit
I think they deserve our support - the deep dive documentary investigation on sanctioned GPU trade to China, including footage of RAM upgrade soldering, was very entertaining, and a pretty fine piece of journalism.
If they show too much doom and gloom, its because of the current economy, prices of GPU and RAM etc, or bad behavior that deserves mentioning.
Jordan_Jackson@reddit
I mean, he’s reflecting the state of the industry right now. Anyone who is trying to build a PC right now is going to be in for some gloom. Prices on everything are through the roof. Just when things start to somewhat normalize for a period of time, along comes another event that causes prices to skyrocket.
DBY2016@reddit
That channel has always been doom and gloom. While I also appreciated what they have done, I stopped watching be cause I just got tired always being such a downer. They rarely like anything and find faults with everything. It ended up not being fun to watch.
FuckwitMcLunchbox@reddit
Lawful Good Hater
Jumpy-Dinner-5001@reddit
Not really. They didn't really do anything relevant in this case, the same program is still in place and a lot of GNs claims were exaggerated a lot.
GN is just cashing in on the result of others work.
gilligvroom@reddit
I've got their old desk mat because I'm too lazy to buy a new one. At least it looks kinda cool. (It's the 3D wireframe models of PC components.)
Sillent_Screams@reddit
I reminded of this old thread
https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/s/fNLwWQlL5G
wusurspaghettipolicy@reddit
imagine switching your platform to provide your parts to becoming rent a center - after selling parts that caught on fire. Amazing.
pacoLL3@reddit
Please stop watching this clickbait crap. It's rotting your brains.
max1001@reddit
I do have a problem with them targeting kids for this "scam" but adults that fell for this. They have bigger problems in life if their financial literacy is that bad.
pmjm@reddit
Brother, actual literacy is that bad, let alone financial literacy. Only 79% of American adults can read at a 6th grade level.
Companies must be deterred from trying to exploit those who are unable to protect themselves. I'd argue that this settlement is too small to be an effective deterrant, but that's a different conversation.
FollowingFeisty5321@reddit
Adults shouldn’t have to be on their guard all the time against companies exploiting them.
TheOnlyQueso@reddit
Yes, they should. If we were, companies wouldn't be able to exploit them, and most often wouldn't even try.
tux-lpi@reddit
If anyone's wondering, it's fine to rob this guy's house. I'm sure he's on his guard, so nothing to worry about. Most people won't even try, but they should.
Why bother having laws. Just be on your guard, mate. That's a very reasonable worldview.
BighatNucase@reddit
OP wasn't arguing against having laws?
gumol@reddit
he kinda was.
NXZT was robbing customers by delivering lower-specd product than they ordered. He says that's fault of the customers.
BighatNucase@reddit
All he said was "Yes,they should" in response to "Adults shouldn't have to be on their guard against companies exploiting them". You're just putting words in his mouth either because you didn't read what he wrote or for some reason really dislike him.
InflammableAccount@reddit
You're both right. They shouldn't "have* to be, but they as we live in a predatory world, they should be.
max1001@reddit
Welcome to being an adult. The world isn't all sunshine and rainbows.
gusthenewkid@reddit
lol
pmjm@reddit
This is good news, but I wouldn't quite call it "justice."
NZXT and Fragile will admit no wrongdoing, and will pay out roughly $3.5M for the whole saga affecting roughly 20K customers. That's like $175 per customer. They made FAR more profit than that with this whole thing. This is a "cost of doing business" settlement.
The debt repayment cap is $5K per customer. If you are seriously underwater on your payment and owe more than that thanks to interest, yes you'll have $5K forgiven, but by accepting that it's tacit reaffirmation of the debt and resets the time that the collection agencies can come after you for the rest.
There's money going towards people being able to keep their computers, which is great for those people. Meanwhile NZXT gets to write off all that old hardware and get a tax deduction for it, rather than getting stuck with used, old-gen hardware that they'd sell for pennies on the dollar, so this might actually benefit them financially.
Again, this is a good thing for the affected consumers who need the relief the most. But calling it justice is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
GenZia@reddit
I guess NZXT should've called it "PC leasing."
Absey32@reddit
already posted: https://reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1siovif/justice_nzxt_fragile_to_pay_3450000_for_rental_pc/