Navigating being abandoned by management
Posted by jambalaya004@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 22 comments
Hi all, I rarely do more than comment here, but I have run into a problem that I am not sure how to navigate. Essentially, as the title states, management has completely abandoned my team.
For some context, over the past year or so, my team (10 engineers) and I have headed all major development at the company. We have had very few defects, no outages, and the only times we were delayed was during management fuck ups that took well over two months of redesigning and implementation to resolve.
Up until about six months ago, the designs we were handed were complete, detailed, and any questions we had were answered swiftly. If we needed to shift the design in any way, management would listen and offer their thoughts and see if it would work well with stakeholders and users.
Recently, however, this has been flipped. We have had nothing but a 140 page AI generated document, containing only bullet points and ordered lists. This has been ridiculous to the point that a bullet point on page 105 may reference another point on page 43. And most of the time, page 43 references something from page 12, which talks about some vague term never mentioned previously or again in the document. It is basically unusable past the few examples provided (AI generated too), and section headers. Not only is it almost unreadable, but the design document's content is half-baked at best. Most of the requirements are very narrow, and it really shows how little either management has looked into our project, or how little time they spent on it.
When scheduling time to clarify the content in the document or to get a better understanding, our managers seem to almost act as if we are wasting their time by saying things similar to "I'm having to take time to help you", "do you not understand the design?", etc. When we get past this and open the document to a specific section, and start asking about technical details (these are technical managers), their eyes glaze over and they literally only say, "this is a living document, use your engineering discretion". "This is only what we technically need, not a technical design" (It's a technical design document with steps on what they want, and how they want it implemented).
This has devolved into us having to take what little we can from the high-level design, and recreate a new design. Of course our implementation has drifted a bit from the initial design, but is 10x more stable, maintainable, and extendable for future development. Had we followed the initial design, we would have found ourselves in hot water within a year.
Now, after a couple weeks have gone by, we are essentially ignored by management, who have moved on to more interesting features with our sister team (our previous team was split). I have a feeling this is the root cause of our issue, as management only ever talks to the other team, never responds to messages from our team, and spends entire meetings talking about the other team and their new features. When it comes time to talk about our feature, we present what is happening, give updates, etc. and are typically met with silence or "have you not done xyz in your project yet? I assume we are at an early state.", or wanting more information from our sister team on something they thought about during our presentation.
On top of this, we are constantly forced to stop working on our feature - this has delayed us by a couple weeks already - to fix some of our management's vibe-coded nightmares, and review their gargantuan PRs (the entire principle management team is doing this). Of course, we cannot push back and out-right reject these PRs due to some temperament issues. And any bug found in a review generally is pushed on the reviewer to resolve, or another principle will just merge the code and ignore all PR comments. Blame over the defect will then fall on the reviewer for not catching the issue before merge...
Before anyone says it, I do not believe we are about to be laid off (knock on wood). We are a core piece of development here, and have been creating most of the tooling for the past couple years with little bugs, and essentially not outages. I alone have been doing most major development for the last 7 years, again with few bugs and personally no outages (yet). Most notably, our feature has already been sold, like a ton, and they are relying on it due to a lot of contractual obligations and good will with our customers.
Has anyone here ever dealt with this, and were you able to bring back support from management? Should I just keep my head down and stay progressing (My design and implementation skills have gotten 10x better since these issues)? My wife is pregnant with our second, so I do not want to leave my job, which has been pretty steady for the past few years.
LaurentZw@reddit
Sounds like management thinks your team doesn't deliver fast enough, why else would they create PRs? Is there a lot of resistance in your team against using claude code for example? In my org we have been delivering multiple times faster and still high quality. We have solved many issues and implemented DX improvements because of Ai help. Another thing, engineers in my org are often suggesting projects to work on, The first two quarters I will be working only on projects I suggested.
jambalaya004@reddit (OP)
It's mainly old code that they are "fixing" that is not related to our project at all (we have several that all of our developers move back and forth from). We use a ton of AI on a day to day, and we like to use it, I am actually a lot faster when it comes to shipping quality, properly test covered code these days thanks to it.
Some of our managers just do not get to write much code anymore, and have resulted in changing major infrastructure using agent to scratch the itch.
rwilcox@reddit
Umph, that last sentence: same.
rwilcox@reddit
What’s potentially insidious about this idea is that it doesn’t need to be based on facts, but vibes.
Sounds like OP’s team has fallen out of favor.
throwaway_0x90@reddit
The team responsible for Python integration at Google felt the same way... and then...
engineered_academic@reddit
Our maintainer bot blocked your comment for editing in a link. It should be approved now
throwaway_0x90@reddit
oh, thank you very much kind human :)
engineered_academic@reddit
You are welcome experienced developer number one.
hiddenhare@reddit
Your managers failed to do their job properly, and you caught them out. Sounds like you were pretty forceful about it, asking lots of questions and letting them squirm, rather than just saying: "it's clear you generated this design with AI, it's not useful to us for reasons X, Y and Z, please provide a new design". After you finished torturing your managers, you've essentially scrapped their design, without getting them involved in writing a replacement.
Therefore, this sounds completely normal:
Your managers don't know anything about your project, and you've deliberately made it socially awkward for them to approach you and resolve the situation. They're silent because they feel humiliated, and they're worried you might humiliate them even more. As long as they feel unsafe, it's going to be "fight or flight": they can engage with you in an angry and aggressive way, or they can avoid you completely. They're currently choosing to avoid you, but that can't last forever.
You've made your point, so I'd recommend being nice and trying to patch things up. Present your replacement design as a summary of their original design, thank your managers for their ideas because you found them very useful, and discreetly hold a few one-on-one meetings ("just a few questions on some fine points") to onboard your managers to the new design and get their input. You've won the contest, everybody knows you've won, your managers will understand that you're choosing to be a gracious and merciful victor, and they'll quietly appreciate it.
Windyvale@reddit
"Before anyone says it, I do not believe we are about to be laid off (knock on wood). We are a core piece of development here, and have been creating most of the tooling for the past couple years with little bugs, and essentially not outages. I alone have been doing most major development for the last 7 years, again with few bugs and personally no outages (yet). Most notably, our feature has already been sold, like a ton, and they are relying on it due to a lot of contractual obligations and good will with our customers."
I don't want to be the bearer of bad news here, but I designed an entire product from scratch on my own and it runs critical infrastructure at their customers. It had every mark of what you mentioned here, and they still let me go for "restructuring." Don't put your head in the sand, if only to protect your family.
tiagocesar@reddit
Made this mistake as well. Was in a "core team", we got a new CTO that wanted to redesign everything from scratch, created a new team for the new version of the software while 5-6 engineers from the old team, me included, were left to take care of the currently running solution. We thought we were essential, in 6 months every single one of us was gone
GoonOfAllGoons@reddit
How and why did this happen?
roger_ducky@reddit
It won’t be fixed. Either your service is now stable enough and the manager decided to pay attention elsewhere, or you’re about to be made redundant.
What you can do is seriously talk to the manager in private and go, “Thanks for trusting us with our judgment. I see you don’t have time to generate long, detailed specs anymore. Can you just give us the shorter version and we can refine it ourselves with much more focused questions? We can make the detailed specs ourselves.”
Leading_Yoghurt_5323@reddit
honestly sounds like they’ve mentally moved on to the other team… i’d document everything and protect your team more than trying to “win them back”
General-Jaguar-8164@reddit
Management shifted to AI driven development while you stay in the traditional way
Times have changed fast
cant_have_nicethings@reddit
In the two companies I’ve worked at as a software engineer, the engineering team created technical design and often product requirements too since PM is often incompetent. I’ve never had management hand off any kind of technical design.
Izacus@reddit
I mean, engineering team are the experts in technical design - that what being engineer means. Why would a non-engineer hand off an engineering technical design to engineers? That doesn't make sense by itself.
jambalaya004@reddit (OP)
Our PMs were initially ICs for the company and do a hybrid of design and management, and were on our team for the longest until they moved up the ladder. Our company doesn't like to hire non-technical management due to issues with incompetent managers in the past pushing things like color changes over features fixes.
Material_Policy6327@reddit
Yeah same. As the senior on my team I am basically doing all that myself and PM is just annoying me about jira lol
titpetric@reddit
Can you introduce systems so that technical specs follow known proposal structure, and can just get revised? 100+ pages of spec seems like you say, a technical document rather than:
If you can't put a proposal together using a few pages of detail, then at least hint the LLM for guidelines and improve the output. If you can give it a consistent shape, I usually find this good enough detail to develop the specs or feature based on that understanding, and the contextual understanding of your software platform.
Sounds a little bit dysfunctional and too much weight is given to principal managers if they slop together incoherent and verbose proposals which you have to sanitize by making them conform to reality. In the best case, you only need to solve the described problem.
Spikes and docs around 10-15 pages are imho padded beyond need, I can't imagine a LLM authored spec going over 100 pages not being just white noise
Short-Situation-4137@reddit
First, let's get the obvious out of the way: if management doesn't give a shit about the company's projects, why should you? Play dumb, quiet quit as hard as possible and start looking for a new job because your days are numbered at your current company and right now they are doing this bullshit to construct an image about your team that you are either not performant enough, or not working on useful things, or a combination of both.
MayanAstronaut@reddit
Just copy paste the ai slop design into some AI coding agent and just ship the slop that they want; in the time that you saved during the slop shipping. Try to find another job.