I hate how the TNG movies focus nearly entirely on Picard and Data. Not even the semblance of a focus on the ensemble
Posted by TravelingHomeless@reddit | TNG | View on Reddit | 209 comments
jacobkosh@reddit
The TNG movies really show where Rick Berman met his absolute limits as a producer. He thought he'd done his time grubbing around in the filthy TV mines and now he would ascend to glory as a Paramount Movie Guy...and instead he screwed the pooch at nearly every turn, from rushing Generations into production with a half-assed script at the same time as staff was stretched thin making Voyager, to being cheap in dumb ways (the costumes), to - most importantly - ignoring TNG's biggest strength, the ensemble, and chasing "the next Wrath of Khan" over and over instead.
Gorbachev86@reddit
From what I heard it was the studio who wanted the film up ASAP not Berman and that Berman wanted a year off to develop Voyager and was forced to get it running almost as soon as TNG ended
ShortBussyDriver@reddit
100%
And he was a dick about it as usual.
Shatner recounts that after Generations had wrapped, he joked that he was only a phone call away if the Nexus thing ever returned. Berman told him to his face that they wouldn't need the TOS crew anymore, and they were going to make way more money with the new crew.
Also, Berman alienated Nimoy at this time period. Nimoy had been asked to direct Generations. Nimoy looked at the half-baked script and said it needed a re-write and that he was happy to give it some polish. Berman basically blew him off and then reduced Spock's role to glorified cameo. Evidently Nimoy was pissed and never spoke to him again.
jacobkosh@reddit
Holy shit, I hadn't heard that one. What absolute garbage.
People bitch about Kurtzman and I'm personally lukewarm on most of the stuff from his era, but I've never heard anything to suggest that he's anything less than a nice guy, much less this kind of poisonous bully.
AkronRonin@reddit
Kurtsman is just plain clueless about Trek. He came in with his own half-baked ideas, shoehorned them into the Star Trek universe, and that's how we got spore-drive Discovery that flips like it's literally on a trip, and the dilithium burp that destroyed Starfleet. Unwatchable as most of his work is for me, I can almost forgive him for his ignorance.
Berman though was around Gene in his last years and literally saw Star Trek evolve into the phenomenon it had grown into by the end of TNG's production. He could have been a far better steward of its trajectory post-TNG, including promoting and preserving the legacy of TOS's crew, but couldn't be bothered to see past his own fucking ego.
Generations was by far the weakest movie of them all (even more so than ST:V). It was written as a total slap in the face to TOS, undermining the warm send-off for the series and crew that ST:VI was clearly intended to be. Berman signing-off on a such a weak script made it clear how he felt about the entire franchise.
OhManTFE@reddit
You can't complain about Berman's failures without also praising his successes. Trek's greatest era was his era - the Berman era.
Empty_Expressionless@reddit
Generations is my favorite star Trek movie?
It's the only one with a philosophical core: if there's a heaven, who cares
jacobkosh@reddit
Liking Generations is totally fine!
I think it's far from the only one with a philosophical core, though. The Motion Picture is about the relationship between creator and creation and the limits of logic in the face of the biggest existential questions. The Undiscovered Country is about overcoming the inertia of history and not letting our past define us.
Tackyhillbilly@reddit
Ehhh, I will say I think Voyager did that. The story behind the conflict between the Writers Room and the Producers on that show is something.
Krssven@reddit
One thing that always baffled me was the way they leaned on Picard and Data having this close friendship in the TNG movies, much like they did with Kirk and Spock.
Picard wasn’t like that with Data on the show. It was Geordi that was Data’s good friend who was always doing holodeck cosplays with him, encouraging him to try new things etc.
Gorbachev86@reddit
I never saw it as friendship more of a surrogate son kind of thing
Cmdrrom@reddit
I don’t know that I can agree with this take 100%
Picard does have a very strong, almost father like relationship with Data established throughout the series. Measure of A Man, but also The Offispring, are leading examples, but so too are the many instances where Picard is the arbiter of the arts and the humanities in Data’s exploration of the subject. Shakespeare and Data’s concert performances are two such events that come to mind.
While it may not be as close as, say Data and Geordi’s, it’s nonetheless close in my opinion. But Spock and Kirk levels of closeness? I don’t agree.
BobRushy@reddit
Picard was still an extremely important mentor figure though, and fought for Data to have inalienable rights. I don't think it's a stretch for them to be so close.
gav3eb82@reddit
Picard got over it pretty quickly when they thought Data blew up in a shuttle accident though in the episode he was captured by the collector.
BobRushy@reddit
Because they had 45 minutes, and the emotional focus of the episode was on Data's moral struggle. It would've been a distraction. If Data had actually legitimately died in the TV show, they would have portrayed Picard's grief.
gav3eb82@reddit
Picard didn’t show much grief when Ro and Geordi were thought to be dead either. Picard was not emotional in the show.
BobRushy@reddit
... because the focus of that episode was on Ro and Geordi's reactions and struggle.
Again, these episodes weren't designed to explore their deaths to the fullest. It's just a plot device. If they were actually killed off, the other characters' reactions would be written very differently.
OhManTFE@reddit
Nah that's just excusing bad writing then. Characters should be written to behave realistically.
So either a they didnt do that becausr bad writing or b
They knew exactly what they were doing and that's picard's genuine behaviour.
I believe the latter because we see other times in trek where ppl grieve when characters have fake deaths.
BobRushy@reddit
"Characters should be written to behave realistically" oh you sweet summer child... this has never been how it's worked, I'm afraid
BraveNote4844@reddit
I've written this above, but your defence is basically saying the Picard doesn't have to mourn the death of Data/Geordie/Roe because we, the audience know they're still alive.
That's a weak defence to me. I like the characters to actually buy into the reality of the show.
In something like The Sopranos, they wouldn't just say Tony won't grieve so and sos death because the audience knows they're still alive.
I'm not saying TNG is badly written either, because I think Picard's stoic reaction to death is perfectly keeping in character. Despite what post series Picard projects want us think, he was never as emotional as Kirk.
BobRushy@reddit
TNG is a procedural, and written decades before the Sopranos. The rules of script-writing were entirely different. There have been jokes made for years about how certain things that should carry over (like Picard's lifetime as an alien villager) do not. That's just something you have to accept to enjoy the show.
I agree Picard was never as emotional as Kirk, but then his reaction to Data's death in Nemesis was hardly blubbering. It simply received greater focus, and there was no immediate assignment for the Enterprise to take his mind off it. Which again, is appropriate because the film wants to give Data's real death the gravity it deserves.
BraveNote4844@reddit
Those are good points. Especially the reminder that the show is episodic and the fact that that certain traumatic events are more or less forgotten in the next episode. So yes I do acknowledge that TV writing was different back then and you probably had more of a point than I made out initially.
BraveNote4844@reddit
Totally agreed. I hate that kind of defense "he didn't grieve their deaths because we the audience know they're not dead".
I sort of like it when the characters buy into the reality of their worlds and behave accordingly.
I think the writers knew this too. Note that even though we know Data's not dead, Geordie still grieves his death. Probably because the writers knew showing Geordies reaction because Geordie is Data's closest friend not Picard!
gav3eb82@reddit
I disagree with you and your evaluation of Picard and how is emotions were written in TNG and the complete 180 they took in the movies. You attribute it to writing fake deaths not needing to explore the impact, I say it was exactly the expected responses from Picard based on his character in the show who is dedicated to his duty and not any personal relationship.
BobRushy@reddit
That's fair. I don't perceive a complete 180 degree turn in Picard's characterisation until the 2020 series. I felt his film self was more action oriented, but even that aspect had multiple precedents in the TV show.
gav3eb82@reddit
I agree his action role in the films did start in the late TNG seasons like in the Picard Die Hard episode in season 6 I believe, but I think this was Patrick making poor choices for the character at that stage of his career because he was bored and wanted Picard taking a more active action role.
BobRushy@reddit
Even in Chain of Command, though, and the Nausicaan fight from his youth. As matured and refined as Picard is, there's definitely a side of him that enjoys fisticuffs and old-school adventuring.
gav3eb82@reddit
I think the Nausicaan fight actually taught him don’t be the one trying to be the action here. I don’t mind Picard being capable of a hand to hand fight. I did mind him having to fist fight Saron in Generations, the Borg in First Contact, stretchy face guys in Insurrection whose names escape me, and his clone and Remans in Nemesis. It was non-stop Picard action.
FINIS_HOMINIS@reddit
And radical dune buggy driving!
shartaculor@reddit
I can just imagine nobody really wanting to put in the effort to be sad over a fake death, especially the writers apparently haha.
Cookie_Kiki@reddit
It's not a stretch for them to be close, but it is a missed opportunity to include Riker and Geordie, who both had a special relationship with him.
MathematicianBest678@reddit
Picard always tried to be a strong leader/mentor figure to everyone under him, even when, as he later admitted to Beverly, he sometimes had to pull things out of his arse to maintain that appearance. He saw it as a professional duty, not a personal quest. Also, remember in The Offspring, he says "order a man to turn his child over to the state ... not while im his captain" Crucially, he said his "captain" not his "friend", he was doing it out of principle, not friendship.
BobRushy@reddit
I don't think anything you said contradicts what I said. Picard always put his professionalism and principles above everything, but that doesn't mean he wasn't genuinely their friend as well.
MathematicianBest678@reddit
Perhaps, Im just in the camp that never bought them being friends. I can think of examples of Picard being annoyed by Data, while of course still respecting him, but I cant think of any examples of him enjoying Data's company. But, who better to annoy you than a friend, i guess. In All Good Things, at the end he did say, "why didnt i do this a long time ago" about spending time with the crew, so maybe in the year or so between that episode and Generations, he explored his relationships with them all.
RaisedByBooksNTV@reddit
Right. The show definitely showed that he was nowhere near friends with any of them except Beverly until the end. The movies' Picard/Data relationship never made sense to me at all.
Krssven@reddit
While that’s true, Data was never shown in the show to be so close it Picard. He was exceptionally close to Geordi, and the films flip that so suddenly Picard is his good friend and Geordi is just there.
BobRushy@reddit
I don't agree with that. I think Data looks up to Picard as a father figure while Geordi is his best friend. There are situations where he would rather confide in Picard.
Krssven@reddit
Definitely gonna need some examples of how their interactions in TNG justify them flipping Picard to being his best friend. They made them similar to Kirk and Spock in their dynamic when that hadn’t been the same on the show. Geordi was his friend, Picard was a wise mentor figure.
BraveNote4844@reddit
Redlettermedia had a funny montage where we see in most of Picard/Data's interactions in the show, Picard seems more annoyed by Data than anything.
Yep, it was a naked attempt (one of many) to make Picard more Kirk like for the movies. All of a sudden he's this man of action who can become hot blooded and loose focus if he's not careful, with this emotionless best friend.
I'll never understand why after doing such a spectacular job of finding their own identity and redefining Trek for a whole new generation, the movies so desperately tried to imitiate the TOS movies, to the point where Nemesis is almost a complete rip off of Wrath Of Khan. I actually find the movies embarrassing to watch sometimes.
rootsquasher@reddit
Don’t know if it was so much Picard and Data being close friends as much as it was Picard and Data having good chemistry. Similar to Odo and Quark, and Bashir and Garak in DS9.
vanillacaramelsunday@reddit
Picard and Data had their own special relationship. I definitely think of weird cold open where Picard is watching Data perform Shakespeare on the holodeck and one the holodeck characters is quite obviously Patrick Stewart and it’s very distracting.
toadofsteel@reddit
My headcanon on that is that Picard, as an aficionado of Shakespeare himself, self-inserted his likeness into the holoprogram.
Out of universe, I think this scene, which could have fit in a number of different episodes, was intended for Picard in-universe to be Michael Williams, but it would have looked distracting for him to then show up in that getup on the bridge when the Romulan Defector crosses the neutral zone. Remember Generations, when they all come off the holodeck still wearing those old sailing uniforms on the bridge?
I-am-not-Herbert@reddit
Picard and Data were the only characters popular enough that people who didn't watch the show would recognise them. And you need those casual viewers for the movies to be successful.
That's also why they dropped the numbers from the titles.
TravelingHomeless@reddit (OP)
care to elaborate about the titles?
Also are you saying Picard and Data were the most popular characters during the run of the series and that they were popular enough in pop culture that non-fans would know them?
Slowandserious@reddit
I think the titles thing is that they stopped numbering the film unlike during the TOS films era (Star Trek 2, Star Trek 3 etc)
But they just did “Generations” “First Contact” without numbers in TNG. So that its less intimidating to casual viewers unlike “Star Trek 8”
UnintelligibleMaker@reddit
Data and Picard went to the holodeck for Shakespeare multiple time. They had a close relationship just not one that was a dynamic on the screen as Geordi and Data.
Krssven@reddit
They did do that, I’m not saying they weren’t friends, just that Geordi was Data’s very good friend in TNG. He was the one he discussed the vast majority of things regarding human behaviour with, and who he consulted with regarding a lot of questions he had about humans.
UnintelligibleMaker@reddit
Im arguing that they discussed them more on screen: data and picard we only see the ends of the conversations and are left to assume they were not short. Picard was helping Data explore humanity through Shakespeare….probably a lot of long conversations and performances and discussions of them. We don’t need to see all of them to guess at the depths
Krssven@reddit
Yet his friend, who he spent most on-screen and therefore verifiable time with, is Geordi. I’m not saying it’s all or nothing, but the person Geordi spent most time with who was his friend wasn’t Picard.
Mel_Zetz@reddit
Nailed it
wollflour@reddit
It's even worse when you remember that, for Generations, they only made bespoke costumes for Data and Picard, and everyone else had to wear DS9 costumes that were close enough in fit :/ (and Data is my favorite...but I still think the abandonment of the ensemble focus in the movies is awful)
Gorbachev86@reddit
Wasn’t that more because of the screw up with new uniforms that ended up ditched so they didn’t have money left for more uniforms?
IKindaPlayEVE@reddit
Filming had started when they realized the new uniforms they made weren't working out. I think this was just a casualty of time constraints.
Red-Sun-Cinema@reddit
A casualty of the studio famously cheaping out on the film budgets is more like it.
IKindaPlayEVE@reddit
Maybe, but the alternative is to stop filming while they get new uniforms made. Maybe that's only a few days, maybe it's longer, I don't know, but the point is that scheduling conflicts could crop up. How much had been shot? All of it would have to be restored leading to more schedule problems.
Red-Sun-Cinema@reddit
The alternative was to give every movie they made a sufficient time and a large enough budget that proper uniforms were made prior to filming and scenes could be properly shot with great special effects. Paramount/CBS was quite infamous about cutting corners wherever they could on the series and films. From reusing TV show and film sets and just redressing them to reusing special effects scenes and just recoloring and flipping them, the studio was notorious for financially shortchanging the shows and especially the films. The Star Trek franchise has been one of their biggest cash cows since it's debut and yet the films and series were treated like a redheaded stepchild. Unacceptable.
strangway@reddit
Yeah the Enterprise-A in Star Trek VI has the same engine and transporter as the Enterprise-D. Like we wouldn’t notice that.
Red-Sun-Cinema@reddit
Well said. Back before the internet most of the movie "mistakes" we now know are common were seldom noticed because most people simply are concerned with being entertained, not the details. Only the super fans who bothered to buy the video tapes and DVDs and had oodles of time to pour over the various movies in a franchise would notice the similarities and re-usage of previous footage, almost always done for expediency and to save money. Now with the internet and social media, it's very easy for fans to dissect their favorite movies and pick out even the most miniscule details that betray lazy or cost cutting choices studios, directors, producers, and editors make to a movie. I'll add that Michael Bay is famous for also reusing footage all over his various movies, even ones that are not related to other movies he's made.
bloodfist@reddit
If I recall it was something that made the uniforms fit really bad. It was a whole lot of them, not just the main crew but extras too. It was a lot of work and it's a lot of people waiting on a paycheck. Between cast and crew you can have a thousand or more people on a tight schedule, with multiple unions involved.
You could ask for a rush job from the company that made the uniforms but that could take weeks. You could hire a bunch of costumers to do the painful job of altering the existing ones. That's way harder. Meanwhile you have to pay all those people or explain to the union and everyone waiting on your lot why you can't film today.
Or you can go next door, borrow a few uniforms, and only lose a few days.
Shit is complicated and expensive. Yeah, they could have thrown a few more million at it to make that happen, but they found a way not to. Filmmaking involves solving all kinds of stupid problems like that. Sometimes it actually leads to really cool creative ideas. This was unfortunately not one of those times.
wollflour@reddit
It must have been something pretty wild, because I'm sure the naval costumes they wore in the scene where Worf walks the plank were very expensive to have tailored, so the uniform thing is even stranger taking that into context!
bloodfist@reddit
Big difference between tailoring and altering. Clothes, especially costumes, are made with hems that can be let out relatively easily to fit. But presumably the job was more intensive, involving cutting new fabric and replacing parts.
They had budgeted for the time to tailor the naval costumes, but they didn't have the time budget to alter the uniforms. I'm not saying that they made the right choice, necessarily. But it was probably a very expensive decision they had to make, and I get that filmmaking involves a lot of those. Especially when it comes to time. When it's time to film and you have limited time? Well, the show must go on. You do what you can.
SneakingCat@reddit
Frakes in particular looks ridiculous.
doubtfurious@reddit
If I remember the story correctly, Frakes was borrowing Avery Brooks' DS9 uniform because he was the closest to his size.
SneakingCat@reddit
I've heard that, too. I'm not sure if Brooks has short arms or Frakes long arms, but it looked like maybe both. 😀
wendellbudwhite@reddit
Frakes is a beast
Due_Example1096@reddit
Well they did name him Goliath
HesJoshDisGuyUno@reddit
I thought he was Xanatos...?
Due_Example1096@reddit
OMG he was. I was tired lol
GeneseeJunior@reddit
Yeah - he's still ALARMINGLY tall. (And I'M pretty tall!)
Kahnza@reddit
I mean he has to toss those tree trunks over the backs of chairs to sit down. Otherwise he'd snap in half!
lokiandgoose@reddit
Nearly all actors wear clothing off the rack and tailored.
mycenae42@reddit
Someone needs to send me the Starfleet merch link.
spaghettibolegdeh@reddit
The TNG movies are essentially fanfiction by people who imagine Picard and Data as best friends.
I refuse to believe these are the same characters from the TNG series.
AkronRonin@reddit
I will always think of ST: Insurrection as the classic post-series "reunion" episode that just happened to be put on the big screen, written by people who either had forgotten about the original series or had no prior exposure to it.
Zeal0tElite@reddit
Insurrection is weird because it's still bad but it's probably the closest one to being TNG: The Movie.
CSWorldChamp@reddit
Truly. Pretty much the rest of the cast got reduced to comic relief. I felt like Troi and Crusher got particularly shafted.
SnooMaps2763@reddit
Even Worf became the butt of the joke it was sad to see
Aspe4@reddit
You're saying he was the butt of jokes in First Contact, or do you mean the other movies? Because Worf had some good dramatic and action scenes in First Contact.
GottaSpoofEmAll@reddit
In First Contact, he was great - I don’t think I’ve ever seen him happier than when he screams “Prepare for ramming speed!”
But by Nemesis, he felt like a token character - his lines were so limited and poorly written.
Thankfully Picard S3 was IMO a good sendoff for him, Crusher and Troi
Zeal0tElite@reddit
Worf should really be ambassador to Qo'noS by the time Nemesis happens but for some reason he just hops on the Enterprise to fire guns at stuff.cos the plot starts happening.
They legit just gave up with excuses for why Worf was on the Enterprise again with Nemesis.
Hated that Picard S3 also dropped that plot point too. It's a perfect ending for Worf's character. He is a man of two worlds, so he becomes a Starfleet Ambassador to Qo'noS.
SnooMaps2763@reddit
Yeah totally agree, First Contact was an outlier for a couple of reasons and was a really good platform for Worfs character. It was the other movies and even the 3rd season of Picard where he became the comic relief/ butt of jokes to a much bigger extent than what he ever was in TNG OR DS9.
SignificantPop4188@reddit
Patrick Stewart wanted to be an action hero and the star. That's why the others are basically background characters in their own movies.
ShortBussyDriver@reddit
For his brilliance as Picard, Stewart actually has really bad instincts about the character and doesn't seem to understand the soul of JLP.
Anytime he got creative control for Picard he went in the completely opposite direction.
Collector479@reddit
Yeah. Perfect example of why the writers should write, and why the actors should act.
It's part of why Picard sucked too. He didn't want to simply do a TNG reunion, but I mean, that's what the fans wanted. Don't bring back beloved characters like that if you're not going to go all in and scratch that nostalgia itch. Season 3 was more in line with what it should've been from the beginning but by that point, it was tough to care.
_Nacktmull_@reddit
I agree. I once saw an interview where it became pretty clear that Stewart not only doesn't understand the character of Picard, but also doesn't even really like him.
sprvlk@reddit
Just like TOS movies focused on Kirk and Spock?
TravelingHomeless@reddit (OP)
But that was how the tv series was. TNG was at least an attempted ensemble.
MuseoRidiculoso@reddit
That’s why they are entirely forgettable. And insulting to fans of the series. Also, curses upon whomever thought that Picard needed women other than Beverly. That whole dynamic was infuriating.
dancepartyusofa@reddit
Yes, the Bad Robot reboot movies are not amazing but one thing you have to give them credit for is that they try to give everyone something meaningful to do in the movie. Particularly in the 2009 Star Trek, you get the sense that it takes the skills of every member of the team for this to succeed.
Meanwhile, the TNG movies are just built around Picard, Data, and a Riker B-plot. First Contact gives us the closest to an ensemble film where all the male characters get something meaningful to do and Troi at least gets a memorable comedy scene. All four movies did Crusher dirty though, Picard Season 3 feels like a personal apology to Gates McFadden for having her serve as a glorified bit player for 4 films in a row.
wildskipper@reddit
It's particularly striking in First Contact when Picard loses it, shouts at Worf and then storms off into the conference room. Crusher just says 'we follow his orders'. This is the chief medical officer witnessing her captain, and close friend, acting completely out of character. Hell, she even has the power to relieve him. At the least, it should have been Crusher following Picard into the conference room and calling him out rather than the totally forgettable fish out of water Earthling.
Ok-Car9853@reddit
Oh don't remind me of my favorite pet peeve in that film. Any Trek fan who knows Canon knows she had the power to stop him as CMO and should've been the one to talk him down in the Ready Room. I'm not opposed to Alfre Woodard being in the movie but leave her on earth talking sense into Cochran that's where she belonged all she was doing on the Enterprise was taking a part that rightfully belonged to Gates McFadden. No wonder she made it clear she was done after that fourth movie which was all she was contracted for which is why they had to make it worth it to her to come back for the third season of Picard.
disp0sableacc0unt@reddit
The CMO outranks the Captain only in Medical matters. Being really angry is not necessarily a medical matter.
wildskipper@reddit
He wasn't being just 'really angry'. He was being told by multiple crewmen, including Worf, that they couldn't hold their ground any more. He ordered them to keep on fighting regardless, basically a suicide mission. He was recommended to abandon ship but ordered them all to keep on fighting, dooming them all.
disp0sableacc0unt@reddit
Ordering a suicide mission is not against Starfleet regulations, in fact it's part of the Command test.
wildskipper@reddit
Wow, you really didn't get the message of that scene and the one in the conference room at all.
disp0sableacc0unt@reddit
What? Ofc I did, but that was Lily pointing out that Picard wanted plain revenge. Unless "Ahabism" is a diagnosed disease in the 24th century, then Crusher has no MEDICAL grounds to counteract Picard's orders.
wildskipper@reddit
He clearly has PTSD, which is influencing his judgement. He wants to continue fighting despite there being no way to seemingly win (they have no idea about Data's plan, which relies on the same hubris and obsession from the Borg Queen that Picard is displaying anyway), which would have given the Borg the ship. Worf presented the only logical way of ensuring the Borg are stopped.
OhManTFE@reddit
None of what you said is a medical issue.
And suicide missions are totally expected of a Star Trek officer. Literally all of their ships are built with SELF DESTRUCT mechanisms.
disp0sableacc0unt@reddit
Exactly. And at least they had a chance of surviving, but in the Command Officer's test, they had a "Command someone to basically commit suicide" portion
BraveNote4844@reddit
She would have relieved him in the show, but in the movies she had most of her character eradicated to make room for more scenes of Captain Picard in a sleeveless vest.
VanDammes4headCyst@reddit
That's a great point about Crusher confronting Picard instead of Lilly. That would have made a great improvement.
My other suggestion would have been to make it a battle of wits between Sisko and Picard, with Sisko confronting him in the conference room. And then finally coming to terms with each other when Picard realizes what he's become because of the Borg.
OhManTFE@reddit
Sisko in First Contact damn that would have been interesting
Cookie_Kiki@reddit
I will not tolerate Lilly slander.
John32070@reddit
Hell, she gets more to do in the first 5 minutes of season 3 of Picard than the four movies. Darn good apology.
AdagioVast@reddit
It's even worse when you realize that in Generations, First Contact, and Insurrection there is always something wrong with Data. Nemesis just shifted the goal posts to not be about something wrong with Data but its still a B story that focuses on Data.
Also starting with First Contact Picard turns into John McClaine.
Idiot_Savant_13@reddit
The two whitest males on the cast getting the lion's share of the screen time was a point of resentment among our watch crew.
BraveNote4844@reddit
Out of curiosity, what makes Spiner and Stewart more white than Frakes?
Idiot_Savant_13@reddit
Specifically to our watch crew?
The man with the Colonizer's accent & a white guy literally painted whiter was a default selection that spoke volumes.
They had tons of interesting characters to work with, a wide variety of backgrounds & skills, and their inability to distribute the storylines with any kind of evenness read like amateur entitlement to BIPOC & female audiences in our neck of the woods.
Crockettt696969@reddit
There isn’t enough time to have each of the 7 main cast have fleshed-out storylines. They have to focus on the most popular characters.
Gustav-Mahlers-Cat@reddit
I remember when the third movie came out, I asked my best Trek friend if he was going to see it. "No," he said, "there's no point. The first movie was a Picard story with a Data arc. The second movie was a Picard story with a Data arc. So I know what the third one will be."
At the time I hadn't thought much about it, but now I just think that Stewart and Spiner had hardball talent agents that forced the producers to indulge them.
angry-software-dev@reddit
Yep, it killed a lot of energy I had for the series.
Stewart was in his "I could be Bruce Willis" phase and wanted to transition toward more energetic and physical roles, he transitioned toward TV Kirk in the TOS roles, but it sort of worked because you could imagine it was Picard contending with his age, the realization his family line ends with him, and struggling with it emotionally over several years of the movies.
Spiner I think just was happy to not be stoic anymore, because he's such a solid character actor, but the writers and producers leaned too hard on "fish out of water due to emotion chip" for my taste, Data became comic relief with super human abilities, which felt unnatural for the character, I really wish they'd gone more toward Voyager's EMH direction of struggling with ego, minor infatuations, and more complicated character building.
Moocow115@reddit
You get a bit of the crew in generations and insurrection but yes, it lost the magic of the ensemble on the whole.
flossdaily@reddit
I mean, Riker's entire character arc ended after Best of Both Worlds. After that, his entire role on the show was to ask stupid questions so that other people could do exposition dumps.
Troi's character arc was basically: will she end up with Will or Word, but definitely Will.
Beverly never had a character arc. She had a kid she barely had to raise. She had love interests, but wasn't particularly lonely. She had no unachieved career ambitions.
Geordi also had no character arc. He was a nerdy at dude who was occasionally interested in awkward dates, but seemed perfectly fine to be alone and doing his dream job.
Worf had a great character arc, but it all happened in DS9.
Data's quest to be more human was still alive and kicking.
Picard's search for meaning and family was still alive and kicking.
steak820@reddit
Series long character archs weren't really I thing in the ninties. Everyone had mini archs in individual episodess
flossdaily@reddit
I don't disagree.
Cookie_Kiki@reddit
Riker led plenty after BOBW. He wasn't chasing the captain's chair, but that doesn't mean he wasn't still great at his job.
Troi went from victim plot device to fully functioning member of the crew.
Geordi's character arc ended after his promotion.
flossdaily@reddit
Literally just his job description. That isn't a character arc.
Kinda. They had two episodes where she had to lead and got a promotion. After that ... nothing.
Cookie_Kiki@reddit
I was commenting on his role, not his arc.
Being a fully functioning member isn't just leading. Her work investigating the death of that Betazoid, for example, was just regular crew work, as was her helping with the Romulan time conundrum.
DerSnackpapst@reddit
The original idea for Second Chances was to kill off Commander Riker so Data could become first officer, and Thomas Riker would have been a dramatically reduced role for Frakes.
wildskipper@reddit
Wow, how did Frakes take that suggestion? Although I could imagine him wanting to be behind the camera more.
Cookie_Kiki@reddit
I think he wanted it
Long-Emu-7870@reddit
Actually at some point in the series Riker just got angry all of a sudden. I think it was after Best of Both Worlds.
Triad64@reddit
I'm so glad Beverly, Geordi, and Riker got wonderful character arcs in Picard S3.
TravelingHomeless@reddit (OP)
could you elaborate for those of us who haven't seen?
Triad64@reddit
Apologies if I spoiled anything. If you haven't seen it I'd much rather you see it yourself, as a TNG fan and especially if you care about character arcs / flaws / conflict / growth, which the characters really didn't experience much on the show (it was designed that way). I know a few people don't care for it or feel people were out of character, for me it was absolutely magical.
TravelingHomeless@reddit (OP)
Appreciate but after Red Letter Media's review of season 1 and 2, I doubt I'll ever watch even when tempted by the TNG's return in season 3
Triad64@reddit
If you haven't seen it but are a TNG fan and the flaws of the movies and Data's death bother you, there is a chance you'd appreciate several things from Season 1. Overall I enjoyed it and there are a couple of 10/10 moments for me that are absolutely worth it as a TNG fan.
S2 starts off strong IMO then gets really dull, but you can honestly skip it. OR just watch the beginning and end of the season, which are pretty strong.
S3 from start to finish for me is the final Star Trek TNG movie that we never got and is light-years ahead of any of the other movies (save maybe First Contact, but even in some ways it is). Red Letter Media really enjoyed it.
Firm-Ad-3245@reddit
worf have some stories with his son Alexander. He won't became a Warrior. And Worf finaly accept the choice of his son.
Worf'have an.episode (or more?) with his first wife, the mother of Alexander ???
majin_melmo@reddit
I honestly like the Worf/Alexander episodes. And Worf in the mud bath with Alexander, Lwaxanna and Deanna will always be funny 😂😂😂
Ralph--Hinkley@reddit
K'Ehleyr appears in two episodes.
j0siahs74@reddit
You know who had an arc? Noah
Big-Masterpiece1194@reddit
When you lay it out like this, it explains why TNG was such a good way to do an episodic show. Most of the characters were just happy where they were, which allows a lot of emotional baggage to get out of the way in service of this week's plot.
fartingbeagle@reddit
Troi's character arc was basically: Will she, Worf she ?
flossdaily@reddit
*chef's kiss*
drrhrrdrr@reddit
Geordi had no character arc?
Dude went from Conn, to temporary command of the Enterprise, to Chief Engineer in his first full year, then had to learn repeatedly how to manage people. He was great with technology, but terrible with leading Gomez, Barclay, and Wes (when he came back from the Academy occasionally).
It wasn't beaten over your head, but the growth was there. Same with Riker, learning that after a meteoric career, he didn't want command so much, yet.
flossdaily@reddit
That wasn't a character arc. That was the writers stumbling around trying to figure out the engineering staff after initially believing they didn't really need to have a main character down there.
That was always way more about the problematic engineering staffer than it was about Geordi.
TheDailyDarkness@reddit
In management you are often judged by the biggest fuckup in the department. Barkley was a unique career assassin wherever he went.
ReddJudicata@reddit
They’re the characters with the two best actors - by far.
Express-Train2486@reddit
Writing for the ensemble could have been accomplished and produced, then shown on DVDs or cable TV or at the conventions. There was no reason to water down all they had accomplished in the 7 seasons of TNG.
Express-Train2486@reddit
A theatrical version and a home video version of GENERATIONS could have been produced. People would have bought a more rounded out, longer movie of the events in the story.
ErichPryde@reddit
Yeah it's pretty bad. TNG built its entire franchise on teamwork and no one person being the hero, despite having favorites. All three TNG movies are awful about this.
Cookie_Kiki@reddit
There are so many kissed opportunities. Imagine being Lavar Burton and finding out you essentially have a bit part in four movies.
Insurrection really should have opened the door to a Titan movie, but they botched it so badly with Picard Junior.
Overall_Falcon_8526@reddit
Well they mind raped Troi a second time. Does that count?
/s
EducationalTeam2498@reddit
Have you seen Star Trek nemesis by chance it felt like it was mostly centered on data.
Ryumancer@reddit
Say what you want about Nemesis as a movie in general, but the space battle at the end kicked ass.
chronopoly@reddit
There’s also a feeling that they had to tempt Patrick Stewart with some wish fulfillment in every film after Generations.
First Contact: being an action hero with arm muscles exposed.
Insurrection: a nice new love interest (sorry, Gates!).
Nemesis: ever driven a dune buggy? Dude, it’s so sweet, you’ll love it.
SullySocks@reddit
People talk about Shatner having an ego yet I think Stewart is just as guilty for it, if not worse in terms of "I have to look cool"
IHaveSpoken000@reddit
Generations was just a terrible movie in general.
opusrif@reddit
In First Contact at least Worf gets a good entrance. Then in Inserection it's literally "look who dropped in for a visit. Then in Nemesis no one word about why he's suddenly on the Enterprise whe he's supposed to be working at the Federation Embassy on Quonos .
Also did the E just not have a tactical officer?
BIGWISDOM99@reddit
A couple of the best episodes of tng were focused on Worf.
CHAOSHACKER@reddit
That’s something that also bothered me as well.
TNG is a series about an ensemble crew.
The TNG movies are more about the “Star” in their respective movies, mainly Patrick Stewart going on adventures (Insurrection is very guilty of that). It just feels off, because the feeling of the team is completely missing.
Leopold_Darkworth@reddit
I assume it’s because Brent and Patrick demanded it. Brent also has a story credit on Nemesis for some reason.
BigPoppaStrahd@reddit
I remember feeling that way when the movies were coming out. The trailers would always show Data having some emotional malfunction and it just felt cringe at the time because they just keep retreading on Data and emotions
DizzyLead@reddit
Me too. Back then, I felt that Paramount should have “leaned into” the purported odd/even Trek movie curse: after Generations, they should have saved the high-budget, high stakes Picard and Data action spectaculars for the “even” movies, then released “odd” movies that were more modestly budgeted and focused on the other TNG characters.
SMc1701@reddit
Well, nobody actually sets out to make a less good odd numbered movie. And the odd/even thing only really came in to play with Star Trek V. Star Trek III was very well received when it came out.
VanDammes4headCyst@reddit
Each of the TNG films have good aspects about them, but they are let down in the writing department.
Sweet6-7@reddit
I wish Generations would have been done differently. Picard should have went back and saved his family from burning up in the fire that killed them.
The entire movie could have been about Picard and Kirk making different choices.
VanDammes4headCyst@reddit
Maybe Picard doesn't go back to save his family, but he is forced to wrestle with the choice to save his family or save the Enterprise. Or something like that.
Triad64@reddit
Yep, that would have been much more thematic.
Classic_Wonder_2613@reddit
They're meant to attract a broader audience, and they don't want to confuse everyone, so they focus on a few. Along with the increased emphasis on action, it's all pretty stupid. Bonus, they gave Stewart much more creative input, and I'm sorry to say it got even dumber. See:ST:Picard
Aspe4@reddit
Agreed. In real life, Patrick Stewart is nothing like Capt. Picard. I think many fans don't realize that; Stewart is actually kind of goofy, that's not a bad thing, though.
VanDammes4headCyst@reddit
Right. While Stewart seems like a great guy in real life, he's actually nothing like Picard. He should never had been given story input.
FooBarU2@reddit
Oooooh yeah!!
Stewart was approached to make that series and he was allowed to decide how it was to go.. until seasons 1 and 2 didn't live up to expectations so.. bring back some nostalgia characters for season 3 🫤
OptimusN1701@reddit
Dune buggies!
Indiana_harris@reddit
It’s one of the reasons I was hoping for a “Captain Riker and the Titan” movie after Nemesis and the Titan books were coming out.
A new Star Trek movie where Will, Deanna and some new characters got centre stage would’ve been great to see.
VanDammes4headCyst@reddit
This actually could have worked very well if they opted for lower budgets and smaller stories. Some sci-fi action, yes, but nothing Earth-threatening.
RaisedByBooksNTV@reddit
Agreed. But the same could be said of the show. It didn't do nearly enough with the fabulous ensemble they had. Most obvious in how they screwed over Troi and Geordi.
mactex0404@reddit
Brent Spiner is needed in small doses. I said it. I am not ashamed.
poptophazard@reddit
I feel like First Contact and even Insurrection had some good moments for the rest of the crew, despite Picard and Data taking the focus. Generations and especially Nemesis are frustrating with this, however, to the point of Geordi barely having any time to react to his best friend's fate
Triad64@reddit
I'm so Glad the Picard series closed this loop. It was a gaping hole in the heart of ST fans. Twenty years in the making. And now, it is no longer a hole. It has been acknowledged. And that is fantastic.
imascarylion2018@reddit
Normally I’d agree with you, but after giving it a little thought I honestly think that the only one who really gets the shaft is Dr. Crusher.
The B-plots in both First Contact and Insurrection are generally focused on Riker, Troi, and Geordi. Riker and Geordi lead the storyline with Cochrine, as well as split off from the main cast in the Enterprise in Insurrection. Riker and Troi also have their relationship storyline and the weird psychic Shinzon stuff in Insurrection and Nemesis.
Worf doesn’t have a whole lot to do, but he does lead the charge against the Borg, have the bit about him going through puberty again, and have a few stand-alone action moments.
Dr. Crusher does… nothing? The only moment I can really think of where they gave her something to work with that isn’t just doing doctor stuff is that one bit in First Contact where she acts wildly out of character along with Picard and Worf.
Essentially what I’m saying is that it trickles down. Picard and Data get the A-Plots, Riker/Troi/Geordi get the B-Plots, Worf gets the action and comedy scenes, and Crusher gets to stand in the background.
Physical-Name4836@reddit
Picard is the star of the show. He needed someone to be emotional around or about. It made sense it was the emotionless character
mjg212@reddit
Troi got some nice scenes in FC, Insurrection and particularly Nemesis but Crusher had nothing to do in the movies. I think one of the movie trailers uses a clip of Crusher from the show just to include her in it?
Big-Masterpiece1194@reddit
As much as I love the TNG movies, I always felt that the only one that really gave Riker anything important to do is First Contact
Marquedien@reddit
Kind of helps when you’re directing.
ned101@reddit
They were the Kirk and Spock of their particular movies.
lightofdarkness42@reddit
At least there’s some solid soundtrack work in them.
United_Efficiency330@reddit
Considering they have always been THE two most popular character on "TNG", why is that a surprise?
Unable_Dinner_6937@reddit
Yeah, I mean the Star Trek movies always tended to focus on Kirk and Spock more than the other cast as well.
BobRushy@reddit
I would argue the Trek films actually invented the idea of TOS having an ensemble cast. In the original show, it's just Kirk, Spock, McCoy and to a lesser extent Scotty who have a close relationship.
Chekov, Sulu and Uhura were just there for consistency, and don't have a particularly close relationship with the senior officers until the films.
jacobkosh@reddit
What we think of as modern Star Trek was basically created by Nimoy in III and IV because he felt bad that his longtime coworkers were getting so little to do. As someone who grew up in the 80s with the movies and TNG, it was shocking to go back to TOS and realize just how little any of the non-big three characters got to do. Those poor actors lived off crumbs for twenty years.
Aspe4@reddit
Of course, the TV show always focused on Kirk and Spock, with the addition of McCoy.
evocativename@reddit
TOS was always more focused on Kirk, Spock and McCoy, while TNG always had more of an ensemble than a duo or trio.
Anon84925@reddit
Yeah, it was really clear that Stewart and Spiner were the only two with the ability to negotiate hard for what they wanted and it really ruined the feel of the movies.
allthecoffeesDP@reddit
They're 2 hrs. Chill. I seem to remember the ensemble having lots of good moments in Contact.
redbanner1@reddit
Thank Stewart for that. Just like Shatner, he ain't doing shit unless he's the focal point.
Real_Batu_Rem@reddit
I only like First Contact, and that’s mostly premise based. The TNG films were all very disappointing, generally. They turn Data into a clown and Picard never acts like Picard.
SMc1701@reddit
I get it, but nobody is going to the theater to see a Troi movie.
ClingonKrinkle@reddit
The TNG movies are not great overall
warp16@reddit
First Contact is fire tho
MinivanPops@reddit
Am I the only one who thought the bar scene was so goddamn cringe? Drunk acting is so hard to do, and "ooby dooby" is not a song anyone listens to drunk
Impressive_Usual_726@reddit
That really depends on what else the jukebox had. When I was a young man in a small hick town, drunks would play My Toot Toot at the local dive because it was the best of the limited options.
GottaSpoofEmAll@reddit
It was awful. Gates McFadden in publicity for Picard S3 that the movies weren’t great for Crusher.
I know it’s difficult to get everyone a meaningful role in a movie, but both she and Marina had their characters treated really poorly IMO 😞
SignificantPop4188@reddit
No, not the only one. I hated that scene.
Roland_T_Flakfeizer@reddit
Honestly, it was the only one where the focus on Picard and Data didn’t feel forced on us, and the rest of the ensemble at least had a decent B plot going on.
strawberrysale@reddit
i hate data
SignificantPop4188@reddit
I usual skip Data-centric episodes when I rewatch TNG. I think Spiner is as big an overactor as Shatner.
Aspe4@reddit
☝🏼 Proof that Lore is a member of this subreddit.
Actual_Duck_1215@reddit
drvondoctor@reddit
Fair enough.
Notchibald_Johnson@reddit
Lost_Balloon_@reddit
THE HELL YOU SAY
FakeFrehley@reddit
What madness is this?
dystopiadattopia@reddit
Tbh I can't stand Data with emotions. He's such a dick.
darwinDMG08@reddit
True ensemble stories are really difficult to pull off though, and if you factor in the amount of action and spectacle involved in a typical scifi movie there just isn’t enough time to focus on more than 1-3 main characters. Probably the best of the TOS movies for the whole cast was IV, as everyone had at least one fun moment or bit (with Nichols and Takei getting the least to do) while Kirk and Spock still dominated the main story arc. If you think about TNG it’s also how most episodes go: 1 or 2 of the cast is heavily involved in the main A/B stories, with Picard still getting a lot of screen time along with River and Data. There was just no way to jam 7 story arcs into every show much less the movies. Not sure MAGNOLIA in space would work.
SneakingCat@reddit
I feel like Geordi got done time in Generations but after that …
thediesel26@reddit
Well of course Data, Picard, and their relationship is easily the most interesting compelling part of TNG.
Krssven@reddit
That would make sense, if Data’s most meaningful friendship was with Picard. It wasn’t though, Geordi was always Data’s best friend.
Upbeat_Leader_7185@reddit
Yeah, its a weakness for sure. They should have caught on by Nemesis but blew that too.