Constantly amazed by marine manufactuters not using marine tinned cable
Posted by Meowface_the_cat@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 41 comments
we all know you need tinned marine cable otherwise it'll eventually burn your boat down, right? (being mildly flippant for effect)
just bought a pair of brand new Yanmar 57's. none of the supplied cabling in the harnesses is tinned.
four new attwood bilge pumps, 200 bucks each , the high-end high-throughput ones - submersible, designed to live in the bilge. not tinned
four new water witch solid state sensors; literally work by being immersed in salt water. not tinned. bought one of a different brand; also not tinned
new Quick brand windlass remote; not tinned
rewiring an ENTIRE 45ft catamaran from a leading French manufacturer; not a single tinned strand in nearly two miles of original cable, not even the starters or windlass. obviously replacing it with tinned.
I don't really have a point other than that this seems wild to me. ABYC mandates tinned cable but the standards are largely voluntary, not law. RCD sets a legal requirement for "marine suitable cable" but doesn't specify tinning meaning manufacturers can make up their own conformity standards (yanmar for example say it's fine because it's jacketed, low-smoke, braided multi core which makes it suitable for "vehicles"). I guess it's an economics thing, they can get away with it so they do, but man, I'm pissed to be paying top dollar for marine gear and getting basically automotive wiring.
pdq_sailor@reddit
Relax...
First a note about ABYC... they are an industry body not a regulatory body they have no authority.. They wished they did - they do NOT... Their so called mandate is nothing more than advisory and on at least ONE significant issue they are dangerously misguided and wrong.. That said mostly their advice is sound and prudent and as I said with one glaring exception I try to adhere to their guidelines and exceed them when I can....
Our boat was built 52 years ago when there was no such thing as tinned wire.. We have sailed exclusively in lake water not salt.... The original light circuits were incandescent and have been upgraded to lower power consumption LED lamps and a lot more of them... That said the original backbone for the lighting circuit is original automotive grade non-tinned wire and its empirically been proven to be perfectly reliable... Reducing the current draw on these circuits is a good thing.. The original AC wiring was household solid wire Romex cable - its all been replaced with anchor marine grade tinned wire As you correctly point out many things do not have tinned wire - my starter motor and alternator being two of them along with my engine wiring harness.. its only been working for 52 years so go figure..
Changes in technology are often improvements with a reason behind them.. they are not always proven to be superior.. Remember that five hundred years ago men crossed oceans in wooden ships without any electricity...
To get past the water sensor issue _ I ran my own sensor cables into the bilge and keep the unit sealed and high and dry.. The bilge pumps are diaphragm pumps on our boat and they are high and dry with suction hoses that vacuum up the water... so no un tinned wire in the bilges..
We do the best we can and we take advice from ABYC but do NOT take their positions as biblical truth or law... We have been given brains and we are expected to actually USE them..
Does this make sense to you?
Whole-Quick@reddit
I'm curious about the issue you think ABYC is so wrong about. Do tell...
pdq_sailor@reddit
They harp about attaching the AC ground to a pathway to water. In salt it could be dangerous in fresh water it can and will kill people / animals in proximity to the boat if a fault exists and discharge of stray current takes place. I isolate the AC ground so this can not happen and use GFI protection to protect the people on the boat. Stats show that about half of all fresh water drownings are actually electrocutions. Imagine having the inverter running with a fault and you or your family jumping in the water?
Whole-Quick@reddit
Grounding is a complicated topic. Lots of trade offs.
pdq_sailor@reddit
No... Actually its an EXTREMELY simple topic and safety can not be compromised.. Its not as ABYC would mislead people to believe a choice between keeping people on board safe vs keeping people in surrounding waters safe - it USED to be s choice when GFI protection did not exist.. The only complication that has been added is that its NOT only when boats are hooked up to shore power but now with generators / inverters being much more common its possible to have AC power on board when away from the dock as well . Look ALL boats used to depend upon the connection to shore power ground being intact to offer protection when at the dock .. then ABYC DECIDES to concentrate on the situation when this ground connection has been interrupted and so they say - send the stray current into the water and to hell with everyone and everything else.. No one made them LORD over everyone and everything else.. That is precisely when the drownings occurred and why ABYC must be LIABLE for any deaths caused by their RECKLESS and horribly BAD advice.. its a very simple thing now with GFI protection that if a ground fault exists the source of power is full stop interrupted.. and disconnected.. I have seen appliances fail the most common one is a hot water heater.. the element cracks, the current flows though the potable water to the case of the water heater and in the case of an ABYC wired boat... before GFI protection - directly into the surrounding earth to find a pathway to ground and discharging that power to people swimming and to animals in the water in proximity to boats.. That is why our club (and other clubs) post signs that say no swimming in proximity to moored boats.. but the answer is WAY simpler than this.. clubs and marinas must require that all boats resident or visiting must be equipped with GFI protection as a condition to being at the facility.. They must also demand that no pathway to water exists on each boat... You see there is NO code or mandate for motor homes or boats - no UL/ULC no CSA no rules in North America that force uniform compliance there is just ABYC and ABYC is not a regulatory body...nor are they a credible impartial organization they have BLOOD on there hands.. They have CAUSED deaths.. and they are WRONG... Our boat is fully isolated..... the singular pathway to ground is via the shore side connection but its still safe if the shore power connection is interrupted and the singular REASON it is safe is that it has GFI protection on board that functions.. It functions at the dock, it functions off the dock when the inverter automatically engages.. Its always safe.. The underwater corrosion and physical damage from stray currents is yet another issue - one we are never responsible for as it can't happen on our boat.. Having an AC discharge to water pathway ... is criminal, and totally reckless... is that an extremely simple position? Yes and it happens to be valid.. Lawyers will look at such a problem and seek to assign blame to the correct party ... ABYC, the manufacturer who agreed with ABYC, the insurance companies that rely upon ABYC, the marinas / clubs that provide shore power to such boats and to the owners of such boats that facilitated the discharge of stray currents.. When such a disputation kills someone and it can be proven to be an electrocution... well then the lawyers and the engineers can get involved.. This one issue is so horrendous that ABYC looses ALL credibility because it is their erroneous advice that caused the situation.
Meowface_the_cat@reddit (OP)
Oh absolutely, don't take me wrong, it's not the end of the world. Previous boat was of a similar vintage to yours, fully untinned and largely not a problem, although our windlass cable did blacken to the point it got screaming hot under extended load (70mm or a little over 2/0 , 8m round trip, 70A max load , so it shouldn't happen). I'm of a very similar mindset to you in that I try to meet or exceed regs wherever possible but I won't be stressing about this long term. I'm totally clear that ABYC isn't a legal requirement. It's just frustrating because it's clearly cost-cutting at the expense of some small margin of safety to the consumer, and doubly so when applied to core safety systems like bilge pumps. You do also mention you exclusively sail fresh water, which is quite a different scenario in terms of corrosion risk. So I think everything you say is absolutely valid but I still wish marine manufacturers would just charge eight cents more and supply tinned cable. These parts were also sold in Europe where RCD IS a legal requirement, and they're getting around the law by saying "well it has a jacket, it won't corrode if you just don't get it wet", and so on. The submersible bilge pumps for example come with leaflets warning not to let the wires get submerged or to come into contact with any oil or fuel. I mean sure, obviously I'll try not to, but over a decade or more of service it's not easy to guarantee. Sigh. Anyway thanks for the long and thoughtful post, the diaphragm pumps are a great shout. What did you use for your sensor cables, are you saying you literally just ran cable and stripped the ends? Thanks
pdq_sailor@reddit
I used tinned wire and soldered the ends for the sensor.
greatlakesailors@reddit
It's a problem, yeah. They should do better – the BOM cost difference is really not much, but apparently "save every possible dime" is the rule of the day.
We've seen stuff on $500,000 brand new boats at the boat show that would fail survey. Like, if the surveyor saw that on our 1970s boat he'd red tag it and the insurer would say 'you gotta fix that before launching' and they're showing up brand new from the factory, with CE Compliance labels, with these defects.
Sigh.
IanSan5653@reddit
Just out of curiosity, where do you sail that a surveyor can red tag your boat? Is that an insurance thing?
greatlakesailors@reddit
Canada. If the surveyor says "this is a significant issue and should be fixed" then the underwriters will often reply with "ok, we consider the vessel non navigable until you provide proof of fix". And most policies on larger boats require surveys for insurance every few years.
Altruistic_Bit_7272@reddit
Don't even get me started on the puny 6 inch wires that come with the bilge pump! They are not even long enough to get out of the bilge before you need to splice them!
IanSan5653@reddit
I mean at least if they are going to use shitty cable, I guess they might as well make it short so that you use good stuff for the majority of the wiring.
Double-Masterpiece72@reddit
Water proof heat shrink crimps to the rescue
Whole-Quick@reddit
That is the fix.
By why the heck do we have to do this on brand new equipment right out of the box?
So frustrating.
Immediate_Matter9139@reddit
RCD?
LOL More like, got your money, RCSeeya
LateralThinkerer@reddit
Cost ≠ quality as with anything else.
As far as tinned wiring, I feel your pain. I bought a 1974 20' sailboat for a few hundred and rebuilt it years go. Went full-tinned-wiring plus solder & silicone seal junctions throughout (not much on a boat that small... lights and stereo etc.) but it all worked flawlessly when I sold it again 30 years later.
briankanderson@reddit
All the stock wiring on my Leopard 40 cat is tinned copper, even the AC circuits!
ManoOccultis@reddit
Mmh, cables overheat when oxydized, causing them to become less conductive ; most present-day cables are PVC-sleeved, which means salt and moisture get into them from ends, right ? So just pay attention to your cable ends, tin them, use tinned or gold-plated connectors and soak them with grease. Yes, that old-fashioned pink thing you'd use on your bike chain ; I'd be weary of silicone grease and lithium and copper charged greases. There are also fancy Waco connectors containing a gel, and a similar gel can be found in electrical supply shops.
By the way, do you know that tin is far less conductive than copper ?
seamus_mc@reddit
There is virtually zero difference in the resistance of tinned marine wire.
There is a huge difference between corroded wire and tinned wire however
ManoOccultis@reddit
You're right.
itanite@reddit
Yes Lagoons are built for the cheapest manufactured cost who knew.
And the subcomponents manufacturer obviously wants that part replaced and the wiring is probably the most hands off way to do that
dasreboot@reddit
Tinned wire is not mandated by ABYC. I use it however.
Meowface_the_cat@reddit (OP)
Are you trying to say that ABYC itself isn't mandatory (accurate), or that ABYC doesn't specify tinned conductors? If the latter, ABYC standard E-11 specifies tinned conductors as the required standard for compliant marine wiring.
As I say in the OP none of this is "the law" in the US (in Europe RCD actually does carry legal force,). But where this comes back to bite you is insurance, where most underwriters require ABYC compliance as a condition of cover.
H0LD_FAST@reddit
I have full coverage with a major insurer for my 1984 boat, and none of the original wiring is tinned. Not only has it not been an issue, the surveyor didn’t specify that as a problem at any point in the survey or report and the insurance company never mandated it or required it. The blanked statement that tinned wire in 100% of the boat is required for insurance or your boat will burn to the ground is inaccurate.
JamesT3R9@reddit
This is disappointing to hear. Also very concerning. Seems a simple thing to check off and a terrible place to cut costs
Extreme_Map9543@reddit
Kinda amazing how many very expensive boats have alot of things off the factory line that are unseaworthy. You’d hope that the free market would correct for those things as customers wouldn’t buy boats not properly made. And it would force the manufactures to build better in general.
pirbuch@reddit
Well people who buy expensive boats don't know a lot about boats, most of the bad designs on french catamaran are customers prefered choices, like 3 stories high , 6 heads, electronic gauges and controls via a single display, like in a car, we end up having shitty cars and boats because they want to sell more, going cheap for trying low price/quality,
redditor_xxx@reddit
You can blame the charter companies. I think most production boat builders take into account the requirements of the charter companies (their biggest customers), and they want something shiny, modern looking, that will last 5 years and to be as cheap as possible.
seamus_mc@reddit
Mooring and leopard are owned by the same PE company
dpk794@reddit
I just worked on a brand new sail boat (I forget the manufacturer of course) and they used simnet everywhere. Simnet is an outdated precursor to NMEA 2000 where the connectors are known to completely disintegrate in a marine environment. No idea why someone decided to use it on a new boat.
The boat is getting some minor add ons that are going to be very expensive for the owner because the manufacturer left absolutely no access to runs. Everything is buried behind glued in panels and inside of chase’s that are inaccessible. Of course the thing has digital switching too with the modules so buried behind a giant mess of wires that it would’ve nearly impossible to work on. People don’t realize what pieces of junk these production line boats are
pirbuch@reddit
On the fontaine pajot , tubes for wiring are not deburred at the ends , cuts the wires, all fontaine cajot have a shitty steering , i used to work and boatkeep a fp44 helia for a consultation/ engineering gig , who did some consultation for all big boat builders, not just but a lot, each time i tried to get the engineering to think of clever solutions and better boats for cheaper because it's the way the continuous amelioration model like kaizen would dictate, like the time the lagoon 450 began to destroy themself from a structural cp that separated, as i had the first 5 built in a charter fleet i had the firts ones with the problem, lagoon waranty guy told me your boats navigate too much 😬🤪😂, then i went to use a simple u shaped aluminium to keep the two plywood together and be able to keep them in fleet and sailing, when i tried to tell them to implement in the building line they said you don't understant boat building all operations are on a time ticket at a minute each, well with an engineer we claculated 10-15 minutes would all it needed , now it is costing them millions to save 15 minutes and about 250$ worth of aluminium! Now they send this aluminium and pay to repair each one of them,
youngrichyoung@reddit
Name & shame the manufacturer of that cat. Being coy about it only protects them from achieving the reputation they deserve.
Brilliant_Ice84@reddit
Currently cruising my 34 year old Tollycraft north on the AICW in South Carolina after spending the last few months exploring in the Keys. The factory wiring is all tinned and in fantastic shape. This old boat may have some warts and WTF design decisions, but they sure did a good (not exactly neat though) job with the wiring. It’s so reliable. Love this old boat.
dawa43@reddit
The life expectancy of un-tinned copper wire in a marine environment is still 5-10 years if installed correctly.
I am confident all of the warranties will be long expired before the wire goes bad.
Plus that is why all the wire is oversized...
2lovesFL@reddit
Dufor is guilty. shame on them.
cdemarc3@reddit
I don't think it makes that much of a difference...my 1985 Pearson doesn't use Tinned wire, and Pearson built some of the best quality production boats out there. Everything still works 40 years later, I wouldn't go out of my way to replace wiring that wasn't tinned unless it was giving an issue
bigDeltaVenergy@reddit
I have a 1976 boat, nothing thinned. the reason I can tell you This it's cuz It's mostly still the original wirering. 50 years amazement I guess.
jonathanrdt@reddit
Tinne wiring started ~1990. Before that it's all just copper.
Scarlet_Fire_32290@reddit
I had a 1977 that had a bunch of aluminum wire in it I didn’t change a thing and ran it for two years
gaugeinvariance@reddit
It's all about the price point. The 45ft catamaran is designed and built to a price point. Its whole purpose of existence is to serve the charter market. The charter companies want a boat that is as cheap as possible to buy. They'll run it for 5-10 years and then sell it on, so they don't care about quality or longevity, only price. Tinned wire would be a waste of money in this regard, since your usual non-tinned wire will be absolutely fine for the first 10 years of its life baring direct exposure to moisture.
The bilge pump is inexcusable. For what it's worth the Shurflo fresh water pump I recently installed came with tinned wiring.
BenderRodriquez@reddit
All cabling is non-tinned in my 45 year old boat. The only thing that is really afffected is the terminations in some places so my conclusion is that is lasts just fine except in extremely wet places. I think the appliance you buy has shorter lifespan than the cable anyway. It's not like they tin the copper wirings in the motor in your bilgepump...