Anybody ever thought of EV swapping an old RV?
Posted by JTwinleaf@reddit | projectcar | View on Reddit | 69 comments
Pic isn't mine, but the model I'm looking at buying. GMC Motorhome (or EM-50, if you know you know)
I really want to do an EV swap of something, and I am also looking at buying an old camper to build a tiny home in. Why not knock out two birds with one stone?
Lamborghini4616@reddit
Range
StrikeouTX@reddit
And also $15,000 in batteries
Dark_Guardian_@reddit
to be able to do a trip halfway across the state
B0xyblue@reddit
We talk in Alaska or Rhode Island?
iamheero@reddit
Takes 2 days to charge
obi1kenobi1@reddit
There are two ways to get usable range out of an EV: either make it super aerodynamic or put in obscene amount of batteries. Almost every manufacturer goes with the former option, with varying success, which is a big part of why EVs tend to be so ugly and why EV pickups are so bad at being usable as trucks (hauling, towing, using the bed, etc).
There’s no such thing as an aerodynamic RV, so your only solution would be to put in huge amounts of battery packs. So many battery packs that not only will it end up costing as much as a new RV, but you will very quickly run into other major problems, like packaging and charging issues that hobbyist-level projects don’t bother to tackle. To get any kind of practicality you need it to be capable of DC fast charging, ideally cutting-edge DC fast charging, which means you basically need to take the drivetrain from an existing EV that already has all those problems solved.
Basically from what I know about EVs the only way to make this even remotely usable would be to do a Silverado EV swap, specifically the one with the maximum range battery, which is like $70,000 for the base work truck spec. Not only is it the only EV with a battery big enough to overcome aerodynamics and make the vehicle actually usable for truck stuff even on long distance trips, it also has a sort of hybrid battery architecture, where it runs on a 400v architecture for normal driving but switches to work as 800v architecture for charging. With a battery that huge this type of system is an absolute necessity if you want a vehicle that can do road trips, because if it’s stuck in 400v mode charge stops will be way longer and add several hours total to the trip. Also the one bright side of such a swap is that most of these RVs tended to carry a gas generator to power things like air conditioning and appliances when the RV is parked off-grid, but basically every EV pickup has a mode that can output 120v AC that can power a whole house for days, so at least that aspect would be beneficial for an EV RV swap.
Project car EV conversions tend to be either a “proof of concept” fun car with a small battery and weak motors, just to cruise around on weekends or take to car shows, or full drivetrain swaps that rely on the donor car’s engineering to make a truly usable and reliable EV. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but very few people doing total ground-up EV conversions care about things like range or fast charging, which are very complicated, so nobody has done the groundwork. And I am pretty sure nobody has bothered to engineer the kind of 400v/800v mode switching necessary for usable fast charging.
The other issue, like some have pointed out, is that this is the wrong platform. The Toronado-based front wheel drive setup is unique enough to preserve, and the whole structure of the RV is designed and optimized around that power plant. Maybe if you could find one without a drivetrain it would be better than letting it rot away, but the more important issue is that it is so space optimized for a front wheel drive power plant that there’s probably nowhere to put the battery, and we’re talking about a massive battery that’s one big huge piece, not cells that could be repackaged and hidden wherever needed.
And of course the last big problem is that a total drivetrain swap basically requires taking everything out of the donor car, to trick the computer and motors and batteries into thinking that the original car is still intact. I don’t know enough about the Silverado platform to know how much of a problem that would cause, but most modern cars really don’t like being taken apart so it’s likely going to be a headache.
Long story short it’s not impossible, but if you want anything more than a novelty that can only drive half way across town it’s likely to be one of the most complicated EV swaps ever done and almost certainly the most expensive one ever done.
JTwinleaf@reddit (OP)
I appreciate the comment! I do plan on making this more of a series hybrid, where the primary drive is EV with a small diesel or gas generator as a range extender.
I have done some preliminary research, and it doesn't seem as complex as you're saying. However, I am in no delusion that it'll be easy. I just think I am just crazy enough to make this work.
obi1kenobi1@reddit
You’re right, as a series hybrid it wouldn’t be as complex as I had said, because batteries are the biggest problem with EV conversions. A series hybrid takes it from the kind of engineering challenge that only the largest and most established automakers can tackle to just a big nightmare undertaking that might be achievable. Of course one tradeoff is that the EV only range would be almost nonexistent, as is the case with most series hybrids, you’d be in range extender mode most of the time.
I would still argue that the GMC Motorhome is the wrong platform to use for the same reasons, though. It was designed specifically for space efficiency, and specifically for front wheel drive, so any big drivetrain swap will be fighting against that. With a series hybrid setup your battery demands would be smaller, maybe even DIY rather than trying to take a drivetrain from something else. They might be able to fit where one of the fuel tanks fit on the stock vehicle, under the floor between the frame rails. So that’s one upside.
But it still needs to be front wheel drive, and that needlessly complicates a lot of things. As an example this vehicle has no rear axles, like at all. It’s easy to look at a picture and imagine popping four hobbyist EV motors on the rear axles, which might provide enough horsepower and torque to make it drivable. But the wheels and suspension are outside of the frame rails so that the floor is low and flat, there’s nowhere to put motors other than the front wheels. And that means both the EV motors and range extenders need to occupy the same relatively small space under the front seats.
Hypothetically you might be able to do a drivetrain swap from an existing vehicle like in my original comment, but use a series hybrid instead of an EV. But I can’t think of a series hybrid that is both strong enough to power a 12,000lb 26-foot motorhome but is also front wheel drive. All the big luxury car series hybrid powerplants I can think of tend to be on rear wheel drive or all wheel drive vehicles, and even those might not be up to the task.
Basically the only reason the GMC Motorhome could exist at all with a passenger vehicle drivetrain is because passenger cars were so absurdly overbuilt at the time, not only huge engines with (for the time) lots of horsepower and torque, but also very robust drivetrains capable of sustained high-load driving without breaking a sweat. The electrification part of the project is probably achievable, electric motors are crazy technology. And with a series hybrid drivetrain the engine doesn’t need to be under high stress like it would if it were driving the wheels directly, and the batteries don’t need to be absurdly huge. But putting all the pieces together in a small amount of space will be the challenge.
Something like a Winnebago would make this project a relative piece of cake. A traditional motorhome built like a bus, with real axles to put motors on and tons and tons of space underneath to hide all the drivetrain components. That project still might be a big engineering challenge but nothing about it sounds like something that can’t be achieved. And if you want to go crazy with it maybe try to find a series hybrid city bus that you could harvest a drivetrain from, I know they’ve existed for like 20+ years and some are likely at the end of their service life. Then you can be certain it will work and handle the stresses of such a big vehicle with minimal fabrication or problem solving. Still a huge undertaking either way, but definitely more realistic and achievable.
4x4Welder@reddit
I wouldn't do an EV swap on that, but a serial hybrid would be a good move.
Ziggarot@reddit
Dude let’s step it up. Plug-in hybrid with a Cummins generator. That is now sounding like a locomotive on wheels
Hamster-rancher@reddit
You have my attention...
Legitimate-Sky-6820@reddit
Now hear me out:
What if you just replace the rear human area with more engine? This could fit a whole locomotive in there with some struggling.
Hamster-rancher@reddit
EMD 16-645E3C ?
3300 horsepower should be adequate.
MoistExcellence@reddit
Why stop with just that at this point?
FiddlerOnThePotato@reddit
fuck it. 6000 horsepower 20 cylinder out of an SD45. hell, we're going crazy, let's throw in two.
weelluuuu@reddit
Exactly! I'm thinking of a wood tinder with steam. Punk. 🚂 🤔
iammonkeyorsomething@reddit
But could it do a wheelie?
M0NEYGR1P@reddit
I am in
Gostaverling@reddit
Basically what Edison Motors is trying to do in Canada
Ziggarot@reddit
Yea and the government is failing them.
Gostaverling@reddit
I’m not certain I’d say the government is failing them. They came up with a novel idea that doesn’t fit into the existing legislation as implemented. The government has listened to them on the provincial and federal level. It seems the government is investigating the implications of changing/allowing exemptions or if exemptions are even possible with the current laws. It may not move as fast as we would all like, but it seems like the government is taking Edison’s issues seriously and looking at how to address them. Edison has been clear and transparent about this process.
Spike_Spiegel@reddit
Edison Motors
Theseus-Paradox@reddit
This is the way
JTwinleaf@reddit (OP)
I see you got the train autism.
I am honestly on board with making this look like one of those old streamliner trains...
4x4Welder@reddit
Aka a serial hybrid
Ziggarot@reddit
It sounds better for marketing because that’s all they care about. But the diesel generator was my twang.
JTwinleaf@reddit (OP)
Yup, that is the idea I had, was gonna set it up as a range extender for the EV system so I can keep battery bulk down a bit
Ornery_Army2586@reddit
I’d leave the original Olds engine trans up front. Then convert one of the rear axles to an elec motor. Install a batt in the rear. I also wouldnt shy away from having a trailer w/ either a hybrid car on it and another battery on the trailer to really extend your range in the motorhome after wiring everything in of course.
twizted_whisperz@reddit
I don't know if you know much about the RV you have picked in that picture but that is a GMC motorhome which is front wheel drive with a 455 Oldsmobile. There is no room underneath it in the back to put anything. Everything you do would have to be up front. It does have two large flat fuel tanks between the frame rails you may be able to replace with a battery, but there's no way to power the rear wheels.
I have two of them. An orange 73 and a yellow 75.
CatzRuleZWorld@reddit
Have you considered engine swapping it at all? Curious what would be a good fit
twizted_whisperz@reddit
There aren't very many front wheel drive transmissions that can pull around 12,000 lb and the bell housing on the TH425 has an Oldsmobile bolt pattern which makes it so it won't even bolt up to the standard Chevrolet engines. There have been a couple of people that have tried a couple of different swaps but most folks have found that the best thing to do is just to upgrade to 455 that's in it with the electronic ignition off of a 307 and an aftermarket throttle body fuel injection. There was one guy that put the engine transmission and transfer case out of a Duramax and just use the front output on the transfer case but he had to heavily modify the floor to get the room to put it all in there
CatzRuleZWorld@reddit
Great info, thanks
JTwinleaf@reddit (OP)
Oh I know it's FWD, it is why I was thinking about making this an EV/Series hybrid. The fact that it is FWD makes the conversion a lot less complex relatively speaking.
motocycledog@reddit
Lucky! I have always loved these things but never owned one.
twizted_whisperz@reddit
They both need a lot of work. I'm going to put the 75 back on the road eventually and the 73 was bought for parts. They both run and move under their own power and the interiors aren't terribly shot but they both need complete brake reworks.
ew_naki@reddit
This guy RVs
NovaCPA85@reddit
This the military RV from Stripes? Good movie.
Mobile_Crew_427@reddit
I honestly hadn’t ever thought about setting an RV on fire, but that would do it.
chef-keef@reddit
You ever been on an electric bus? They are LOUD
JTwinleaf@reddit (OP)
I have, and I am not too worried about the noise, as I will drive this seldom and live out of it for months at a time while having a commuter E-bike or something if I need it.
KG8893@reddit
Are you parking it and taking short trips? I really couldn't think of a worse vehicle to do an EV swap then something that is only used to travel long distances
JTwinleaf@reddit (OP)
It would be parked for long periods, but I am also planning on using a genset as a range extender, so not purely EV
windraver@reddit
Bring this up on diyelectriccar forums
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/
Surturiel@reddit
Are you willing to cram 250kWh+ worth of batteries on it?
Because your going to need it.
owensurfer@reddit
This is the answer, and with this $40k in batteries you’ll get maybe 200 miles of range max.
MikeForShort@reddit
You could do that and make it into the EM-50 Urban Assault Vehicle so range wouldn't be such a problem.
mrporco43@reddit
I'm so happy this is here. I have always wanted an EM-50.
Pendell@reddit
Wow, so far down... Sgt. Hulka approves...
Toto_nemisis@reddit
I thought that specific model was fwd?
thescrapplekid@reddit
Aging wheels started to do that to an old school bus. He ended up selling it
TweeksTurbos@reddit
No but ive slept in one of those.
Mike312@reddit
I had a project in my mind about doing it with a Vixen motor home using a BMW i3 REX drivetrain, maybe somehow doing two batteries in parallel.
The Vixen is only about 5,000lbs, has a slightly larger profile, and of course is much, much longer. So, there'd be a hit to range, but ideally that could be managed by adding the second battery and increasing the point the range extender kicks in at.
The i3 motor has a bit more torque and a lot more hp than the diesel option, so I'm not concerned about it having enough power.
No-Locksmith-9377@reddit
Full EV of a big RV would probably run into diminishing returns due to weight.
Even the professional VW bus ev conversions only get like 100-160 miles of range. Yes, you could have more batteries in a bigger vehicle, but again its just more weight.
You would need to run the math on the diminishing returns on investment. it is worth $20,000 in batteries for 200 mile range.
Snake-Plisskin-50@reddit
That is the UAV. Best defense during the cold war
donebeingbroke@reddit
with a platform that large, you would be better off looking for an EV transit bus power train or component to swap over. or ev school bus, whats the gvwr of that stalion? yoh have the space for anything. to swap over cummins/hybrid unit. i believe they use ISBs allison has the power train i believe.
dkortman@reddit
Personally I would use a p-pump 4BT Cummins if I were going to use a Cummins for a generator. Smaller, simpler to work on, lighter.
TotalmenteMati@reddit
A 4bt Cummins would be decent enough driving the wheels
fnordfnordfnordfnord@reddit
Even a Kubota gen set
dkortman@reddit
Maybe if it’s an older kubota. Some of the equipment we use at work has kubota for pony motors and they throw all sorts of codes and errors. A p-pump Cummins just works. And if it doesn’t work, you can get tons of Cummins parts at almost any NAPA. NAPA also carries some Kubota stuff but their selection is more limited. And if you have a big breakdown on the road with a Cummins, most heavy duty/fleet shops (freightliner, peterbuilt, etc) usually are able to do complex Cummins work since the 4BT shares many parts with the 6BT
JTwinleaf@reddit (OP)
The GVWR ranges, but its in the ballpark of 12k to 14k
The idea was to use a genset as a range extender, coupled with something like a Tesla Large Drive Unit.
saabstory88@reddit
Please pick another motor. These are difficult to integrate with solid axle vehicles like EVs, there are so many better choices that already have the proper layout. Also, there is a limited number in the world and they have a bad design flaw that leaks coolant and destroys the stator. We need every good one we can for repairng cars, since they are notoriously difficult to rewind.
JT_3K@reddit
Ranges the question, on that scale/platform with that much space “under the floor”, is there a way to “chain” Tesla ER packs with the rest of a Tesla powertrain? Say three?
JTwinleaf@reddit (OP)
There are ways, but I actually want to keep the battery bulk to a minimum, which is why I will be using a generator for a range extender. I am thinking of the EV drive train as a future proofing measure, mainly.
Nitrogen1234@reddit
I'm also a fanboy of those.
There's a really cool buildseries of a Dutch guy completely renovating one.
I've seen his series and realised I could never do that.
Most examples for sale need a lot of work.
I'm having doubts of you would be able to place enough batteries due to the way the coach is build
twizted_whisperz@reddit
Yeah I've seen multiple people in this thread talking about how much space there is under the floor and there is not any space under the floor on one of those. It's not like most winnebago's built on a p30 truck chassis, these were purpose built by GM to be motorhomes and when you're standing on the floor in the kitchen you're less than a foot off the ground. These things are front wheel drive and don't even have rear axles, The rear wheels are on bogies on each side and there's no way to easily power them.
-FARTHAMMER-@reddit
Do you have any idea the size of the batteries you'd need to move that old hunk? It's not worth it , at all
JTwinleaf@reddit (OP)
I am aware, that is why I'll have a range extender generator
logunleonov@reddit
Maybe something like ev with REx (ev with small ice engine that works as generator)
JTwinleaf@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I was planning on that actually, because if not I was going to need a ridiculous battery pack.