Picard REALLY infuriates me in A Matter of Perspective (3x14)! He was soooo ready to turn Riker over to the Tanugans for a sham trial

[-]

Done_With_That_One@reddit

I think the takeaway here was that Picard's hands were tied, legally speaking. The incident happened on their station, which would have been their territory and therefore their legal jurisdiction.

[-]

I agree with your assessment, but let's be real. Starfleet is a military organization within the Federation. Military offices do not hand over their crew to be tried by other countries. Usually they'll ship the officer out of the region on the next plane while an investigation is done.

[-]

bbbourb@reddit

Starfleet Is NOT a military organization. Roddenberry repeatedly said that.

And soldiers stationed in other nations are generally subject to the laws thereof. Depending on the severity of the crime and the nature of the political relationship, they absolutely would hand him over if it was of benefit to a continued peace.

[-]

Hon3y_Badger@reddit

We watched Starfleet act in a VERY military like fashion in DS9 despite Roddenberry's claim. The whole structure revolving Starfleet follows the navy structure. We've seen numerous times militaries quickly exit a officer exit the region. They're might be a negotiation for the person's return to the country, but they're quickly exited in the immediate

[-]

Yakostovian@reddit

I said it here, but Starfleet is more like the Coast Guard by default than the Navy.

But to your other point; the US military very often allows the local government to prosecute Service members for alleged crimes. Failure to do so would be worse for public relations, be it a home port or foreign country. In the case of foreign nations, any exceptions are spelled out in a Status of Forces Agreement, and to the best of my knowledge, the local commanding officer does not have the authority to deny local authorities jurisdiction.

[-]

NewLife_21@reddit

DS9, while a great show, was not based on Riddenberrys Trek. By then the Bible that Riddenberry had used for his shows had been tossed and the new people were already moving away from what Trek was supposed to be about.

So, of course DS9 was different. That was by design.

People forget way too often that Gene Roddenberry had an iron grip on how the show was supposed to present human development.

We were supposed to have grown and matured past all the fighting and hatefulness between ourselves as a species. The conflict in the show was supposed to be between humanity and other species who were not always as mature as we were. That is where the moral and ethical conflicts were meant to occur, between us and others, not between humans themselves. (Which means the whole maqui storyline would never have happened if the bible was still in effect.)

[-]

DaRandomRhino@reddit

Starfleet Is NOT a military organization. Roddenberry repeatedly said that.

Yeah, let's just ignore the ranks, the terms, the weaponry on board, the authority to negotiate, the foundational elements mirroring Westerns with clear hierarchies based within prior military experience....

I don't care what Roddenberry says, I care what it's presented as and how it's used.

[-]

VariousPreference0@reddit

100% it’s a military organisation. They have a rank structure, they fly around in armed ships, they carry weapons, they fight wars, they have an intelligence and espionage branch, they have a legal structure which results in court martial for offences etc etc. They do science and exploration as well (like the military) but it’s crazy that people pretend it’s not military.

[-]

DaRandomRhino@reddit

I think it's because people want to pretend that it's not a military organization for the same reason they want to pretend it's space communism.

Self-centered convenience that it endorses their own wants and desires and anything that contradicts it cannot be true because then they might have to acknowledge that they don't know what they're talking about. And it makes their memes have less bite, their breadtuber less relevance, their political endorsement less convenience, etc.

Roddenberry had a lot of good ideas. But that doesn't mean his word is gold. Just look at Wesley.

[-]

MolybdenumBlu@reddit

Gene also said they don't have money in the future and that doesn't make any sense with what we see on screen either.

[-]

Middcore@reddit

Roddenberry said a lot of things.

[-]

Yakostovian@reddit

Starfleet is most akin to a mashup of NASA and the Coast Guard. It's not a military first organization, but can be pressed into military service. Its primary role is that of exploration, and it performs duties such as search and rescue on a regular basis. But by the time of TNG, Starfleet is not the military except in wartime.

Notable evidence for Starfleet no longer being the military for the Federation (by the 2360s at least) is in The Undiscovered Country. One scene within makes mention of the notion of disbanding Starfleet when the Klingons come to the table for peace talks, and another person states the exploration arm would continue.

[-]

thebabyfacedheel@reddit

If you think Starfleet is a military organization then I question if you've ever even watched Star Trek. Roddenberry is turning over in his grave.

[-]

osunightfall@reddit

Well one of us obviously hasn't watched it. Or at least, I guess only one of us was paying attention, anyway.

[-]

Middcore@reddit

Yes, Starfleet is officially not a military.

They just use military ranks and procedures, have ships with planet-obliterating armaments comparable to any of the other nearby galactic powers (many of which are named after famous historical warships, I must add ), and function as the Federation's military in all conflicts with other powers.

But they are not officially a military. Because that wouldn't fit the image they try to project from a Watsonian perspective, or the utopian ideal they're supposed to represent from a Doylist one.

[-]

thebabyfacedheel@reddit

Then I guess the Democratic People's Republic of Korea isn't "officially" a dictatorship because that wouldn't fit with the image they try to project.

The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Yes the Federation has all those weapons as youve described. But they don't use them in a militaristic style. And clearly there are threats that the Federation must defend itself against. A utopian society is not a naive society.

[-]

AngrySoup@reddit

But they don't use them in a militaristic style.

Starfleet is charged with the defence of the Federation. It also has other duties, scientific and diplomatic among them, but one of the core responsibilities of Starfleet is to protect the Federation.

Starfleet is not limited to what we see today as military duties, but they also fulfill the role that a military does. I think one could say that they're more than a military, but I don't think it's reasonable to deny their military function (among others).

[-]

Middcore@reddit

Whether Starfleet is a military and whether they/the Federation are militaristic are two separate questions.

The pudding says Starfleet is a military (although not only a military) by any practical definition.

They don't acknowledge it for various reasons, one of which, yes, was Roddenberry's sensibilities. But Roddenberry also presided over episodes of TOS that are direct ripoffs of WW2 movies, and almost ruined TNG before he was shoved aside.

[-]

thebabyfacedheel@reddit

What is the primary mission of the Enterprise? Would you describe that mission as having scientific or militaristic goals?

Is every ship in Starfleet a military vessel? Or do those ships have other primary goals? Of all the ships in the Federation what percent would you say are primarily military vs primarily non-military?

[-]

ZeroBrutus@reddit

They are the millitary and explorative arm of the federation. Wether the Enterprise is working in a primarily millitaristic or scientific functions is entirely dependant on its mission at any given time.

[-]

Hon3y_Badger@reddit

Defense is absolutely a military function. Federation likes to add noble purpose to what the ships do, but like Sisko says, "unofficially the Defiant is a war ship."

[-]

thebabyfacedheel@reddit

Yes. The Defiant. A ship built as a result of the Dominion invasion. One ship. Not the entire Starfleet.

The vast majority of Starfleet vessels are for scientific/medical/transport services. Not military.

[-]

Hon3y_Badger@reddit

It was built to battle the Borg. But you see Riker commanding a swarm of ships in Picard. Of course medical and transport ships are designed with to operate during peacetime but also designed for capacity during war. It's like a bridge, during peacetime it carries civilian traffic, but those bridges are built beyond normal civilian capacity needs because the government wants to be able to carry tanks across as needed.

[-]

Belle_TainSummer@reddit

Starfleet is dubiously military, but more importantly, it is NOT the American military. Starfleet cares about actually doing the right thing, and not screwing over its allies, breaking its own treaties, following the law, not committing warcrimes... You very definitely NOT America.

[-]

Ragnor-Ironpants@reddit

Yeah this is like…the whole point of the show. It’s a science fleet that has a double but secondary role as a defence fleet. As a utopian depiction of the future Picard makes decisions like this because the Federation isn’t an Empire and Starfleet isn’t the c19th Royal Navy. Episodes like this are holding the contemporary US up to critical scrutiny, because it wouldn’t recognise the sovereignty of a smaller state’s court even in cases where a crime had clearly been committed. DS9 looks at the ways the Federation does resemble an empire and undermines its own ideology, but TNG is firmly a utopian social commentary. I’m sort of confused people don’t get that?

[-]

notaprogrammer@reddit (OP)

This actually occurs in real life! During the Iraq war several US soldiers were accused of war crimes against Iraqi civilians. Some really bad stuff. We never once turned them over to the Iraqis because we knew what they would do to them. We tried them ourselves in military court

[-]

medicus_au@reddit

The Iraqi government that was controlled by the US?

[-]

TheHylianProphet@reddit

Is this the one where the wife said Riker was super horny for her, and we weren't supposed to believe her?

[-]

thegovernment0usa@reddit

And Deanna said the wife wasn't lying when she accused Riker of trying to rape her? Yeah that's the episode.

[-]

MindlessNectarine374@reddit

Yes, you can be bot lying and still not telling the objective truth. Our memories can be biased, and things depend on perspective. Look, the indirect third witness actually said that both were eager.

[-]

Unfair_Pineapple8813@reddit

There's a difference between not telling the objective truth and one party claiming the other raped her, while the other party claimed nothing happened. If Riker had said it was consensual and she said it was attempted rape, I could maybe see it. But he said he was all business and nothing else. From that to rape is a big leap.

[-]

notaprogrammer@reddit (OP)

Except they didn’t want to put Will on trial for rape. They wanted to put him on for murder. Huge difference

[-]

Life-Excitement4928@reddit

Sure, but the fact that all involved witnesses were passing the empath test (that Picard spent the entire series using as his basis for evaluating others, barring half an episode where he struggled with the morality of that and then it never came up again) did make it hard to just dismiss them.

And ultimately his role was not determining guilt or innocence.

It was to determine if there were grounds for Will to stand trial.

The threshold was muchlower.

[-]

Due_Example1096@reddit

If I remember correctly she also said Riker wasn't lying when he said he didn't try to rape her either.

[-]

OkMention9988@reddit

Will being a notorious horndog or not, he didn't chase married women.

[-]

GiltPeacock@reddit

I mean he absolutely does, in this very episode.

[-]

GoVolsFucBama@reddit

Not in his account, she came onto him and he didn’t reciprocate

[-]

RW-Firerider@reddit

I think it was funny that Riker spinned it as dhe wanting him and the denying the advances, and she said it was the other way around, all while Troy felt that both are telling the truth. Talk about a useful empath, am i right?^^

[-]

notaprogrammer@reddit (OP)

yes. The only evidence they had was biased witness testimony and Picard said he’s going to have no choice but to turn Will over

[-]

shadowscar248@reddit

Is it really biased?

gif

[-]

Bensfone@reddit

Of course he would, and he should.

Riker at the least compromised himself by being alone with that guys wife. And, “guilty until proven innocent” is a real legal system in Eurpope and elsewhere, so it’s not wholly a sham. And, a prominent Taunagan was killed and an entire orbital science lab was destroyed.

[-]

Tramagust@reddit

I think the japanese system considers the accused guilty until proven innocent. I'm not aware of any european country that does the same.

[-]

MolybdenumBlu@reddit

As someone else in Europe, I can also confirm you are wrong.

[-]

Thewaltham@reddit

As someone from Europe, no, "guilty before proven innocent" is not how we operate.

[-]

MindlessNectarine374@reddit

It's regularly demanded for cases involving sexual harassment.

[-]

Intellectual_Wafer@reddit

No, it's not.

[-]

notaprogrammer@reddit (OP)

yes except with zero proof Will had anything to do with those events other than biased testimony from Nel Apgar's wife and assistant and he was in the wrong place at the wrong time

[-]

Live-End-6467@reddit

Many were sentenced with less than that.

What should Picard do? Fire his torpedoes and make the station go away?

[-]

notaprogrammer@reddit (OP)

"Mister Worf, please escort our "guests" to the transporter room"

"Gladly"

[-]

mackinator3@reddit

I mean....thats a lot of evidence.

[-]

DarfWork@reddit

My take on this is that Picard did his best to investigate the murder, but he otherwise was a terrible support for this number one.

I mean, no "I believe you/I want to believe you, but we can't impose ourselve by force" or at least "I won't give you one of my crew to a legal system that won't give him a fair trial", or something like that. I don't know, seems to me he could have done more on this front. This wouldn't mean no investigation, but it would mean something.

Generaly speaking, Picard is kind of an asshole in the first seasons of the show. Janeway might not have been the captain of the flagship, but Kirk was, and he would have shown better support for any of his crew.

[-]

Stargazer1701d@reddit

What else was Picard supposed to do? There was strong suspicion a crime had been committed in Tanugan jurisdiction and Riker was in it up to his eyeballs.

[-]

HackTVst@reddit

What would Janeway have done?

[-]

icelights23@reddit

She let Paris sit in jail about to be brain wiped while Tuvok investigated…so same

[-]

VGuyver@reddit

Delete the lawyer's wife.

[-]

ImpressiveJohnson@reddit

Solve the crime herself while single training the dog to poo on the killers shoes.

[-]

Stargazer1701d@reddit

Who cares what Janeway would have done?

[-]

LaxBedroom@reddit

No coffee for you.

[-]

Revolutionary_Kiwi31@reddit

“Computer, delete the alien prosecutor.”

[-]

Quardener@reddit

Janeway isn’t leading the federation flagship.

[-]

OkMention9988@reddit

Yet.

[-]

TheFish77@reddit

gif

[-]

nhowe006@reddit

Eject the warp core, of course. Or initiate self-destruct sequence.

[-]

Stargazer1701d@reddit

Who cares what Janeway would have done?

[-]

icelights23@reddit

Janeway did the same thing on VOY

I always hated those s/ls

[-]

VoicesofGusto@reddit

Weird in hindsight that Picard saved Wesley from a comparable situation without a second thought.

[-]

Repulsive_Reading642@reddit

Well that wasn’t going to be a trial or anything just straight execution.

[-]

roxgib_@reddit

Well in fairness Wesley admitted to doing the crime

[-]

medicus_au@reddit

Also it was for minor accidental property damage

[-]

fartingbeagle@reddit

"He smashed my marrows!"

[-]

majin_melmo@reddit

Well. because Picard knew Beverly would kill him if he let her son die for no reason…

[-]

Valuable_Ad9554@reddit

It always feels like a stretch to go with the idea that "innocent until proven guilty" is just a human / federation ideal and that it's perfectly acceptable for there to be other civilizations who do the opposite. How could any society function like that, it's just not sustainable long term.

[-]

JacobDCRoss@reddit

His worst moment was in Homeward.

[-]

teamrocket221@reddit

He did absolutely the right thing though though. Had he not agreed to it, it would have sent a terrible message to other federation members. Basically saying that starfleet officers were above the law. A dangerous precedent to set. Suddenly starfleet officers think they can do what they want on other planets coz Starfleet will protect them. Sorry, but Picard behaved like a responsible captain here. (Which is not always a popular thing to be.)

[-]

Analogsilver@reddit

Lots of problems with this script. One obvious one is Troi can't tell if he is being honest. Huge red flag that he was involved with the wife in some manner. What else was she picking up on?

[-]

Sufficient_Row_7675@reddit

Honestly, having a telepathic/empathic character is as annoying to write around as transporters are. So I'll cut 'em a LITTLE slack.

[-]

fartingbeagle@reddit

Ship under attack from another new species: "Captain, I'm sensing . . . anger.".

[-]

MolybdenumBlu@reddit

They didn't need to have a telepath. They wrote that in on purpose.

[-]

LaxBedroom@reddit

Eh, I actually think this was one of the redeeming parts of the episode. It wasn't that Troi can't tell whether Riker is being honest, it's that both Riker and the widow are genuine in how they remember events. People can have radically different recollections and convince themselves that something happened without being liars.

[-]

stilldreamy@reddit

Sort of, but some people are really skilled at continually convincing themselves of things that are not true, which is kind of a way of lying to yourself. And it would be hard to be so good at it that there is no trace of realizing you are convincing/lying to yourself that Deana could pick up on. Then again, she is only half Betazoid, and her own emotions may have clouded her abilities somewhat.

[-]

LaxBedroom@reddit

Yeah, I'd gently suggest that the skilled self-deception isn't the point of what this episode is exploring and it's actually important that Apgar's widow isn't acting out of malice. The episode hinges on her being wrong but not trying to frame Riker.

It's not that Mrs. Apgar is practiced at lying to herself, it's that she's reconstructed the last two days of a tense visit from a Starfleet officer with resting flirt face through the lens of trauma. The episode is clear that she's wrong, but it's not because she's a sociopath.

[-]

nebelmorineko@reddit

There is also the possibility that due to cultural differences and lack of understanding each other's culture, he did something that made her think he was going to rape her, even though he was just trying to flirt.

[-]

stilldreamy@reddit

But in Riker's version she was the one who was more coming onto him and he was avoiding it.

[-]

RandyFMcDonald@reddit

I am reminded of how O'Brien on DS9 ended up accidentally flirting with Cardassian scientist Gilora Rejal. He thought she was being irritating and pushed back, she was surprised and read the signals as one of the human being interested in her.

[-]

stilldreamy@reddit

The only point I can get out of it is that some people are so self-delusional you have to avoid them at all costs.

[-]

MindlessNectarine374@reddit

Exactly.

[-]

MindlessNectarine374@reddit

Well, if both believe in their versions of the story, they aren't lying. Living beings aren't machines with objective documentation what happened, and two people can interpret the same situation very differently.

[-]

stilldreamy@reddit

Yes but only to an extent. Their stories/interpretations different enough that it couldn't just be a matter of interpretation differences. For their stories to be this different either one of them is lying or delusional. Or they are both somewhat delusional and both stories are wrong and the truth is somewhere in the middle, but even then, one of them would have to be quite delusional, which is maybe somewhat a choice, and therefore somewhat of a lie.

[-]

The-Chatterer@reddit

The trouble Ryker had was that mud sticks. Check the look Beverley gives him.

[-]

TripleStrikeDrive@reddit

Flimsy evidence? I think you need to rewatch the episode. The testimony of wife and assistant was painting a bad picture of riker. The energy beam could have come from a phaser from the same spot where riker stood.

That more than enough circumstance evidence to warrant arresting Riker prevent him from leaving the solar system.

If worf and data were investing in a similar case, they probably would reach similar conclusions.

As an audience, we know riker wouldn't commit murder, but in the universe, there was enough evidence to warrant more investigation into riker. And I suspect their justice system doesn't have a high false arrest for various reasons.

[-]