How to deal with fox attacking cats?

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PrincessPK475@reddit

Foxes attacking cats in any sort of routine is a long enduring myth.

In a 1:1 cat almost always comes out tops and most foxes are very very wary of cats.

There are exceptions for if a cat is already dead, sick or very old and the fox is starving. Extremely unlikely in an urban area in spring.

Most foxes gives cats a wide birth. Of the two species cats are the more aggressive and volatile and there's a significant risk of injury to the fox...

This is the second post I've seen like this this week and my advice remains the same. If you find them a nuisance get a sprinkler system.

Cats do significant damage to the wildlife and should be indoors after dark and at a minimum wear a bell if being let out in the day if you absolutely must insist on letting them out.

Not sure why the sudden surge in trying to villainise and demonise urban foxes but I can't express enough just how unlikely this story is and I strongly suspect that someone with a disgruntled agenda is seeking some form of validation to impose more aggressive methods than deterrents.

BSc animal sciences (behaviour and welfare)

Also endorsed by Sir David Attenborough if you won't take my word for it. Secret Gardens episode 2 on iPlayer if you'd like a really stunning educational documentary on British wildlife in urban spaces.

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Plenty-Spell9353@reddit

I live in Wales in a forest. Been surrounded by foxes since I was young. Had a lot of experiences with them both in the night and the day. Over the last few years I've noticed significant change in their behaviour and appearance.

First of all, they've gotten massive. They are the size of dogs not cats here. When I was a kid they were the size of cats, now the foxes I see are 2-3 the size of cats. Secondly, they are not wary of humans anymore. They used to hide and run away when they'd see me. Now they look at me, stare me out and go about their business like it's nothing. Constantly see them in gardens, jumping over walls, ripping up rubbish bags. Decimated rubbish bags on bin night is the norm in my village, was never like this when I was a kid either. When I was delivering pizza I had a fox approach me and stand a couple of feet away and then charge at me. I shouted and kicked out, it ran back and then charged at me a couple more times. I shit you not it was licking it's lips and looking at the pizza box. It also stayed there and watched as I delivered the pizza and didn't run away. It was about lower hip height and definitely not cat sized.

Had a fox kill 14 chickens at 7am within a couple of minutes. Also my dad had to constantly fight off foxes with brooms when they were trying to get my rabbits. He used to absolutely batter them and they would not back down. The only other animals I've owned is large dogs, they are definitely scared of my dogs and will run away from them. But my dogs have always been really large and they're very aggressive to foxes naturally, they hate them. Although they did kill the chickens when my dog lived there, he was just not out in the garden. My point is they're not the shy sneaky animals they once were. They seem hungrier, fearless and ready to fight for food. I absolutely believe they would kill a cat and probably if this trend continues, small fluffy dogs.

I know you have a degree but I actually see these animals on a daily basis. Can't speak to the rest of the UK, I could imagine in suburban areas like London they'd be a lot skinnier due to lack of food sources (we are farm lands here so they've got plenty), but in my village this is what it's like. I think they're beautiful, intelligent creatures that are solely doing what we all have to do: eat. I don't see them as vermin at all but I'm also not naive to think they'd never attack a cat if they were hungry and had an opportunity. That reminds me of when people say sharks would never intend to hurt a human they mistook the human for a fish, sharks are just big sea puppies! Like no they're hungry amazing predators, we are absolutely useless in water compared to them as it's their natural habitat so yes you're an easy meal.

I don't know of anyway to deter foxes without hurting or scaring them at the very least. After being hit by a broom they stopped trying to get the rabbits for a while but then eventually return and we'd start the process again. If I caught the fox that killed our chickens I would killed it. Protecting my pets means more to me, and it would just keep returning and doing more. I get it's nature but it's also nature for me to protect the things I love.

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PrincessPK475@reddit

Interesting. I'm aware they are a risk to livestock... And that they are otherwise a nuisance to some but all validated studies indicate an alarming decline in rural areas and the populations doing less well.

Like I said starvation is a driver and this is significantly more likely in a rural area.... Urban foxes are thriving and while they're bolder than their rural cousins and more likely to be spotted they don't need to put themselves in harms way as they have an abundance of scavenging opportunities this is why I made express distinction of urban foxes - their behavioural characteristics are worthy of being delineated.

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Plenty-Spell9353@reddit

I'd imagine that's due to population differences in Wales vs England. I'd bet these studies were done in England, they wouldn't wanna include Wales and skew the results, as usual, and who cares about Wales enough to do a study lol.

In Wales, the rural areas are naturally well-populated. Apart from Cardiff, we're pretty much all rural, even our tiny 'cities' are surrounded by greenery and farmlands, so we don't have the divide of cities being more populated than rural areas like England does. Even people that work in the 'cities' (I say cities lightly, apart from Cardiff, they're nothing like English cities) often live in the rural areas and drive to work.

Secondly, we are fat in Wales. No kidding, our obesity rate is 10% higher than England and we are the fattest of all four UK nations. So I'd imagine there's more food to scavenge here. I know people that chuck their food waste out the back in forest areas or even in their back garden to feed the wildlife rather than let it go to waste. Prices are generally cheaper here and we have more money to spend on food. I'm always shocked how skinny everyone seems in England when I visit.

Thirdly, we have natural rabbit populations, loads of birds, mice, ducks, many of us that aren't farmers still have chickens for eggs etc. Then of course the actual farmers have lots of livestock (especially sheep and lambs, what we're known for as a nation).

So perhaps in Wales the foxes are more like urban ones in England, despite our land being mostly rural, but that's because the rural areas here are well-populated, have rich wildlife and fat people so there's plenty of scavenging opportunities.

A quick Google search of fox studies in Wales says the following: Studies on foxes in Wales, particularly the Red Fox (Vulpes vulpes), focus on population densities, their role as predators in rural and commercial forestry environments, and the effectiveness of control methods. Key findings indicate that Wales has high densities of foxes compared to other parts of the UK and Europe, with extensive research conducted into the impact of culling.

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PrincessPK475@reddit

I'm aware. Cymru am byth 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿

The research in Wales is skewed and biased all right.... But towards the agricultural perspective as that's where the money for research is coming from and there are political incentives.

I am an advocate of people not attempting to coax or tame foxes where neighbours keep poultry, livestock or small herbivorous animals outside for the livestocks safety as well as the foxes own safety. I'm under no illusion of the relationship they have with people with rural settings.

I'm not going to even attempt to change your mind because I'm fully aware of the disdain for foxes and the bid for culling them in the rural settings. I agree that the dynamic and public perception is more complex in rural settings.

Yet the lack of evidence of urban foxes not killing cats, specifically cats, is steadfast so I'll stand by my original comment in context and politely decline to not engage outside of the subject matter.

In cities people have little to fear from foxes and they highly effective at keeping rodent populations and thus spread of disease in check.

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Plenty-Spell9353@reddit

What about all the comments in this thread alone stating they have seen their cats being attacked by a fox? Most of them stating they live in London or urban parts of England? Do you think they're just lying?

https://youtube.com/shorts/okVkpvGQDfQ?si=dxNyrjU1UJiUo0Xq

I don't have a disdain for foxes at all either. I think they're extremely intelligent and beautiful animals that are just trying to survive. However, if my pets were being attacked by one I would have to kill it. They're relentless and will keep coming back until the job is done, I know this from experience. Killed 14 chickens in a couple of minutes in broad daylight. Constantly tried to get my bunnies and we're willing to fight humans for them. They weren't livestock to me, I didn't eat the chickens or rabbits, they were pets. They were all different breeds with different personalities and they are a lot more interesting and funny than people think. Luckily, I have no animals that would be vulnerable to this kind of thing (70kg dog) at the moment so it's not something I'd worry about. I wouldn't just kill a random fox for no reason.

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PrincessPK475@reddit

I don't think they're intentionally lying. I think they believe what they heard/saw. I believe psychological factors and confirmation biases are playing a significant part of their stories. As well as some grandiose overexaggeration for dramatic flair and self convincing of their own narrative and agenda.

Having spent many many many hours observing my local population of foxes - in Wales - I would be confident letting my cat out and would be afraid for the fox who got on the wrong side of her..... Not that I'd be letting her out anyway especially after dark becuse cat fights are way more brutal, as well as road incidents and they're a menace to local wildlife.

I appreciate those were pets but chickens are livestock animals. Domesticated as livestock. Likewise domesticated bunnies severely lacking capacity or capability to have any defence mechanism against a fox, they are vulnerable outdoors in cages... All advice now is to keep rabbits as indoors pets... Not just to keep them safe from foxes, but for all manner of reasons keeping rabbits outside is no longer the welfare gold standard.

I mean.... You only have to go a few extra comments deep to realise that even OPs story has quite a few indicators of being exaggerated.

I'm not judging, it's a sociological phenomenon, e.g. if you tell someone somewhere is haunted their brain is primed to tune into sounds and sights they otherwise would have ignored and thought nothing of.... They go on the ghost walk and come out convinced they heard/saw something they couldn't explain... Often even extreme sceptics will admit to feeling eerie moments.

Google the scar experiment, was designed to highlight people's perception towards prejudice specifically but it all broils down to confirmation bias so it's an excellent example of what people's brains do after being led to believe something that isn't true.

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stiletto929@reddit

Animals with rabies might attack unpredictably. I understand you don’t have it there though? That would definitely be my concern in any country with rabies.

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Extra_Actuary8244@reddit

Rabies does not exist in the uk

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