France to ditch Windows for Linux to reduce reliance on US tech
Posted by BabylonianWeeb@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 76 comments
Posted by BabylonianWeeb@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 76 comments
VladimiroPudding@reddit
Waiting for the day EU or a major country decide to invest in datacenter/cloud infrastructure.
Then we will be talking. Removing Windows for open source is nice, but doesn't really solve the biggest issue.
Oleleplop@reddit
Its a start at least
hiddentalent@reddit
I'm in the information security field and I can tell you that Europe's adversaries are eagerly awaiting that day, too! Smaller, fragmented clouds with smaller, fragmented security teams is Russia's dream.
Nethlem@reddit
In what way are you "in the field"?
You claim Europe is somehow better off outsourcing all its InfoSec, and the deepest thoughts of its populations via Social Media, all to US companies?
Or are you trying to spin that yarn of how the US is an "ally" to Europe when it spies on us in ways not even the Stasi could dream about?
Do you think Russia/China have their own social media platforms because that's allegedly a hackers dream?
Or are they rather hyperaware that having large parts of your population most private thoughts collected by an adversary is not something smart to let happen? Unlike most non-US countries, particularly Western ones.
Btw: "Smaller, fragmented clouds" can also be called segmentation and compartmentalisation, these are security features that make attacks more difficult.
While putting all your eggs into that one American basket means one only has to hack that single basket and pwn everybody else with it too, as it has happened with Equifax, SolarWinds and plenty of other US companies.
hiddentalent@reddit
You're clearly emotional about this topic and I know I won't convince you.
But I've been a security engineer and executive at major companies in IT and operational technology for decades across Canada, US, and Europe. I have spent enough time actually evicting nation-state actors from networks and recovering from their impacts to feel pretty confident in my opinion.
Ultimately, you're comparing a thing that exists to a thing that doesn't. If Europe could come up with a hyperscale platform with a well-resourced security teams and sustainable economics, then great! Go use that. In the absence of that, though, real choices need to be made.
And no, fragmentation is not the same thing as segmentation or compartmentalization, unless you think those are accomplished by using different protocols and management planes for each compartment. Which would be a horrible idea.
Nethlem@reddit
Not sure where you read "emotional" out of anything I wrote or asked you.
If all of that is actually true then that makes your takes here either very sad, or rather very on point. Case in point:
And you attributed these attacks to alleged "nation-state actors" how exactly? But with that kind of certainity, on something inheretly uncertain, it's no surprise you also think your opinions are beyond question.
Not at all, I'm comparing the web we used to have to the one we have right now.
The American writes, and the moment the EU actually tries to get something like that going your American government will bully and sanction all kinds of related parties, American, and non-American and all over the world.
Because it's Europe that's strong-arming EU companies like ASML not to sell to Chinese competiton? Or would that rather be your American government, the same one passing massive subsidies like with the CHIP Act?
When China does something like that your government considers that justification why the EU shouldn't sell lithography equipment to China.
Brother, I'm talking about the fundamentals not only of the free world wide web but even the peer to peer routing it's based on.
These are ideas that are built on decentralisation, relying on decentralisation to actually be viable, to enable a plurality of opinions on an actual "market of ideas" with a level playing field.
You know, how the web actually used to be before a bunch of US corporations came in with more money than sense thanks to the post-2008 banking crisis ZIRP
Again: If you want to see "horrible ideas" you only look at your own one of; "Hey let's give all our eggs to the American fox and hope he doesn't steal them!"
Or you acting like the web is this American for profit thing, when it actually started out as an international scientific thing, out of Europe.
But don't let that stop you from telling us how we shouldn't/can't do it, likely because such a move would directly impact your bottom line, right?
VladimiroPudding@reddit
Either this or US Cloud Act.
hiddentalent@reddit
There's no denying the US CLOUD Act is a horrible thing. I wish American voters would fix that, although given all the other things competing for attention I understand why that might not be at the top of many people's priority lists.
But the answer is not more technical fragmentation. There are lots of digital risks out there. American law enforcement is not an insubstantial one. But it is also not among the greatest. The other threat actors benefit when Europeans over-regulate and fall back to economic protectionism because "America bad." The balance of risks needs to be evaluated with a cool head and a structured threat model in order to assess realistic tradeoffs. As of today, the realistic tradeoff for most organizations is to use the big three cloud providers for anything that isn't national security related.
Azurmuth@reddit
The US has been caught time and time again spying on Europe. Why should we trust them with our data when they already wiretap our heads of states, infiltrate our intelligence services.
What's the point of them using cloud services if they need 15 different ones to not risk the US fucking us over? It's easier and simpler to just store it in the EU.
xNaquada@reddit
Americans are either conveniently or intentionally ignorant of their nations massive interference around the world in all sectors political, economic and military.
Dialogue about sovereign infrastructure is always met with hostility and threats by their leadwrs, and uninformed mass media regurgitated talking points from their public.
Don't bother engaging on it.
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
I like how people always conveniently forget that the US wasn't the only country named as rampantly spying on everyone.
Professional-Syrup-0@reddit
I like when people from Five Eye countries act like that’s just such a normal thing that everybody is part of.
Just like every country has a massive global dominance of social media like the US has, as such the exact same capabilities as the US right?
That’s also why the German BND has a bunch of bases in the US directly plugged into the U.S. largest IXP and spies directly on every US president, completely legally?
The German BND of course has and does none of these things, while the American NSA does them all over the world.
Reminds me a lot of how International law is treated by some people: When Russia/China/Iran allegedly violate it that’s evidence how those are “rogue states” that should be “contained” or “liberated”.
But when it’s the US&vassals violating the very same international law, in usually even worse ways, then the argument suddenly becomes “Everybody does it, UN has no enforcement mechanism, makes right!”.
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
So where do you come from? I'm betting you're from one of the Fourteen Eyes.
hiddentalent@reddit
Countries are not a single organism. There are in fact distinct actors with different motives within every nation, including yours. Blaming an entire nation for the actions of a few is a path to dark outcomes.
The fact is that China and the US, while their governments have deep flaws that can cause a rational person to be skeptical, are the ones able to create economically sustainable hyperscale companies that can afford proper security investment. And the reason is that Europeans are protectionist, risk averse, and try to regulate every little thing. I mean, the EU AI Act basically killed your chance of having an AI industry. Some people are smugly happy about that, but the long-term economic and security implications are pretty dire.
ImpossibleToe2719@reddit
We don't care. Btw, we have our own cloud services.
aykcak@reddit
Amazon is working on creating a European based company that will offer the entire AWS services in Europe
I have looked into options for moving out of AWS, Azure, Google hegemony. It is not easy. No company offers the entire set of what we need
VladimiroPudding@reddit
IMO first step is investing massively in cloud infrastructure. It is the elephant in the room, since creating datacenters take time and a BUNCH of money. For instance, Yanis Varoufakis in his book mentions how Amazon pulled this because the US was floating in free money for years post 2008 crash. AWS was basically subsidized by the American government.
So EU is running against the clock here, and if they are serious about cutting reliance on the American cloud oligopoly, they need a serious plan to subsidize cloud infrastructure. This might also involve creating a more tech friendly environment for emerging European tech, which is lagging behind massively compared to the US.
With that in place, there is fertile soil for European companies to emerge to provide the full package the likes of AWS provides for data.
avroLancasterBPR1@reddit
You cant say hegemony after listing 3 seperate groups mate its not what the words for
aykcak@reddit
Yeah I felt it was a wrong word soon as I wrote it but could not find a better one at the time. Cartel maybe ?
James2712@reddit
Oligopoly.
Machiningbeast@reddit
Ovh, Scaleways, Hertzner ?
Ja_Shi@reddit
None are comparable to AWS/Azure.
Besides, it still uses US tech inside.
Alpha_Majoris@reddit
Another big actor is Proton
Ja_Shi@reddit
Ok you just have no idea what you are talking about.
Alpha_Majoris@reddit
Nebius. Sadly founded by ex VK employees. They left Russia, but can they be trusted? They signed a €27B contract with Meta.
PerforatedPie@reddit
I feel like you answered your question yourself with that last statement.
Professional-Syrup-0@reddit
U.S. tech made in China..
Ja_Shi@reddit
I was mostly thinking about Intel/AMD and the elephant in the room Nvidia. I'm pretty sure whatever China does, Taiwan can do it, and surely there are also other alternatives as well. But for the big 3 it's fucked ATM.
Dizzy_Response1485@reddit
Lidl cloud
PlsDntPMme@reddit
Oh you’re not kidding. That’s pretty funny that they’re in the business!
GolemancerVekk@reddit
Well, AWS was started because Amazon had unused CPU capacity.
Lidl has started building up their infrastructure a while ago.
soapbleachdetergent@reddit
Apparently they had too much money laying around so started their own cloud
Nethlem@reddit
This could be the perfect opportunity. for the EU to position itself on some seriously important issues with a global market advantage.
Sadly, I do not think this has a realistic chance of happening because US vassals like Germany would actively block/sabotage it.
Can't even switch a single city like Munich to Linux without big names from California showing up and our provincial politicans getting wooed by American prominence.
WoolooOfWallStreet@reddit
I remember after the Snowden leaks over a decade, Germany started to invest a lot of money into having a lot of its operating switched to Linux
I guess that didn’t pan out as much as I thought it would
Professional-Syrup-0@reddit
Sadly you are remembering wrong.
Germany never had a federal level project to switch from MS to Linux, the project in Munich was the first and only of its kind it started in the early 2000s after the US/Europe fallout over Iraq.
The Snowden reveals had basically pro-US consequences in Germany: Our government made excuses for the American spying and then pushed on the EU level to send all EU flight passenger data to the U.S. on top.
Which is all such a dumb joke considering even countries like North Korea run their own Linux distribution, yet highly developed and advanced Germany can’t even get a single city to switch.
PerforatedPie@reddit
From memory, Germany was more pissed off that the UK's GCHQ was revealed to be tapping the trans-atlantic fibres that connect Europe to the US. Die Spiegel had like 2 days of it on its front page, meanwhile UK news barely mentioned it due to embargos from the government.
WalkerYYJ@reddit
This is currently happening.
An interesting take on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39jsstmmUUs
shootinjack@reddit
It’s a thought. If anybody here has ever worked in defense or the governent, you will know this will take years if actually done and be insanely painful
jenny_905@reddit
It has also been tried by governments before, has failed each time.
pseudopad@reddit
So what then, just give up and be forever under the thumb of the US?
What do we do if a future US government literally bans MS from supplying to certain EU governments?
Complete national shutdown because of a word spoken in the oval office? You can't call yourself a sovereign nation if that's the case.
chillichampion@reddit
You can try and be nationalistic about it but what he said is true. You can’t replace US big tech. No one has the resources to do that.
pseudopad@reddit
Any single European nation would not have the resources, no, but there's no need for every nation to reinvent every wheel. There's no need to replace every single piece of software, but enough to not be completely paralyzed if something goes sourIt will obviously not be free to do that either.
Thankfully, no European nation would have to start from scratch. Huge amounts of commercial services depend heavily on free software, and European nations can use the same approach. The biggest problem is to keep several governments focused on the issue for more than a single election cycle.
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
Has to be a start somewhere..
Although I'm generally worried that there are more variations of Linux than Windows OS.
pseudopad@reddit
Government machines don't run on unusual hardware. Almost everything is bog standard and it wouldn't be hard to require Linux driver support when getting quotes from suppliers.
When it comes to government servers, Linux is already one of the most common server OSes in the world, so that won't be a problem. When it comes to tech sovereignty, having our own infrastructure is just as important as having the end users on a non-US OS.
penjaminglutton@reddit
It’s so conflicting living in America and seeing the slow destruction of the empire. It is probably very good for the world as a whole, and with Trump in office I am actively rooting for it, but I know it’s going to fucking suck living here for a long time because of this.
KFSX@reddit
I would not worry about this stuff. Europe is like reddit in the respect that they like to "talk big" more so than they actually like to do.
Leynnox@reddit
I think you couldn't be more wrong, Europe didn't decided to move away from the US, the US did that, that's not like they have the choice, it's nothing about having a big mouth or whatever, it's just happening and they're not selling that as a good or a bad thing, but just a necessary one.
But you can keep convincing yourself that it's not happening, I mean, nothing wrong with that.
KFSX@reddit
I'm glad that makes you feel better to type but the reality Europe hasn't decided to do anything, they are just make a few superficial headline announcement to allow people to pretend. If they were to actually try to abandon US tech, they would quickly realize the difficulty involved, and by the time they came to terms with it Trump will be out of office and the desire will be gone anyway.
But you can keep convincing yourself that it's happening, nothing wrong with that.
VladimiroPudding@reddit
Europe took effective steps into independence from the US in the last months, though...? Like signing up economic partnerships that were on the shelf with other countries for years, sometimes over a decade?
Seems like you are the one trying to pretend people are not moving their asses to distance themselves from the US as much as they can. It is difficult, of course, but one has to begin somewhere.
KFSX@reddit
Total strawman comment that has nothing to do with tech companies
chillichampion@reddit
Couldn’t agree more. There’s no replacement for US big tech right now. No one has The scale and resources needed to replace it, nor do they have the political will to do it.
Majority of Europeans don’t realise how helpless we are and are extremely dependent on the US for everything and are humiliated when someone points that out.
RevengeWalrus@reddit
quitting hegemony cold turkey
VladimiroPudding@reddit
UK ceased to be an empire some decades ago and it is one of the bug economies in the world. Your guys are going to be fine.
TheBoizAreBackInTown@reddit
Eh it's terrible ofc (for you and the world), but it's just a much more rapid version of the decline that would've happened naturally anyway. This style of progressively more hardcore capitalism and neoliberalism had only one end on the horizon, and we're seeing it now. Both politically and economically.
TheBoizAreBackInTown@reddit
Being reliant on way worse, less secure, costly and proprietary US operating system instead of using one of many fantastic Linux distributions will always be a mistery to me. Hopefully in 20+ years we'll look back at this and laugh while using, supporting and developing amazing open-source software EU-wide.
BendicantMias@reddit
Which Linux distro are they switching to tho? I only know which ones are good for gamers lol.
TheBoizAreBackInTown@reddit
Considering the amount of money they throw at Microsoft each year, they could build their own fork of a distro and support stuff like LibreOffice and have a better environment in a couple of years for the fraction of the price. The biggest costs and challenges are the logistics of transitioning to a new environment, training the users and compatibility/maintainability issues. You're gonna have that with any distro. But, honestly, it's their fault for choosing shit, insecure and expensive products in the first place. Sunk cost fallacy and all that.
pseudopad@reddit
I think it would take a lot more time than "a couple of years". The cost savings may not even be significant if you want enough actual developers and support personell for it.
Even then, it's still the sensible path to take. Even if it takes a decade, being unshackled (or at least less shackled )from US tech will be worth the cost.
It's no different than insisting on building our own weapons instead of buying US weapons. Even if some of the US gear is technically better, it's a very weak position to be in if you never try to develop your own alternatives.
TheBoizAreBackInTown@reddit
It might take longer, true. Depends on what the choice for distro and other apps/tools is. Best case scenario would be using already existing distros and apps and just supporting those project monetarily. But even if the cost skyrockets and becomes just as expensive as using Microsoft products, it's still very much worth it, agreed.
pseudopad@reddit
Fedora is a viable choice. It's well-supported and stable. It is however the community edition of a US-based tech company's commercial linux distro, but it doesn't cause any lock-in to American tech infrastructure.
Another option if you want a European distro is SUSE. It's also worth mentioning that KDE e.V., the organization managing the KDE desktop and associated projects is registered in Germany.
WIth that in mind, SUSE (or OpenSUSE if you're not a business) with a KDE desktop is probably the closest you can get to an European operating system.
Jazzlike-Spare3425@reddit
I also wondered because the article doesn't specify but the French police appears to have a special version of Ubuntu called GendBuntu. I am therefore assuming it's just gonna be Ubuntu because it's been proven at scale for desktop setups. But if it is Ubuntu, that's absolutely crazy, because Ubuntu is developed by Canonical, which is British. You know the situation is fucked up if the French accept something from the British.
Alpha_Majoris@reddit
The problem is: dependency on Microsoft Office in all of government, all over Europe. Microsoft has made it top priority to have all government organisations, cities and also schools use Office, Exchange, SQL Server and that horrible thing called Sharepoint. They bribed, they threatened, the faught Linux like crazy. They always won. Microsoft is everywhere. The dependence on Excel and its macros is scary. People losing their Excel sheets is going to be a big problem in all these organisations. You have no idea.
pseudopad@reddit
The reliance on MS Office is probably the biggest barrier, not just in government, but also in basically every business in Europe. There's no easy fix for this, as there is no current project that can painlessly replace the software suite.
It will take years, maybe a decade, of consistent funding from EU governments into open source office solutions before replacing MS Office is feasible for most large organizations.
Which means that this is what European governments have to do. We have to get the ball rolling, we need to have our governments cooperate and collaborate to find the projects that could meet our needs if given the right incentives, and then give those incentives.
Professional-Syrup-0@reddit
Yup, it already starts by MS infiltrating education and management: Everybody using MS products means using MS products will be taught at schools and universities as required job skills for the future.
That’s where MS already gets people “hooked”: Student discounts on MS products go way down, all so students get sucked into the MS ecosystem, learn to do tasks only with MS products and store all their work on MS servers.
LinxESP@reddit
IT managing tools for microsoft software (windows and office and integrations) is very nice and that's a factor. You don't swap to linux as much as you do to a specific distro, so if swapping over to red hat's stack you still rely on a US company for example.
I guess SUSE (Germany IIRC) is the option here.
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
"Linux is like, the safest thing ever!"
Jia Tan. XZ.
Rovcore001@reddit
Uncommon French W. Meanwhile across the channel their colleagues are handing over the NHS and its treasure trove of data to a dodgy American tech giant.
FerdinandTheGiant@reddit
France has been on a bit of a streak recently. Sending arms to the LAF, refusing to allow Israeli forces to use its air space, seeking Lebanon’s inclusion in ceasefire negotiations, recognizing the state of Palestine, etc.
Professional-Syrup-0@reddit
That Israel airspace thing seems more like another one of those Trump fake news.
Gullible_Flan_3054@reddit
Forgive my ignorance, but what airspace does France control that Israel needs permission to use that is of importance to the current hostilities?
PolychromeMan@reddit
'Air above France' maybe? Where you can probably still smoke cigarettes on planes, and curse in French!
Alpha_Majoris@reddit
Probably American shippings via London or Amsterdam that then fly over France. Spain has also closed its airspace, Switserland as well I believe or Austria? That can result in a detour but all in all it's nothing more than an annoyance.
FerdinandTheGiant@reddit
Israel wanted to use their airspace to transfer weapons.
Sonikado@reddit
Hopefully they are aware this is going to trigger many safeguards and indirect attacks.
Brazil tried to do similar around 2000 and its entire technology initiatives got under so much attack (and infinite subsides from Microsoft) that the entire initiative and our own technilogy centers where completely obliterated.
Now we barely have anything here. And the US has been spying our presidents.
Alpha_Majoris@reddit
see my other reply
Nethlem@reddit
Sounds like Germany, down to the spying on chancellors.
Over here the Americans have so much influence they made American spying legal as Germany is de-facto still occupied.
Case in point: There is a whole alpine lodge/resort owned by the US Department of War in Germany. No access for the locals, only US personel and "NATO allies" allowed, even the employees are flown in from the US.