Mid-drive vs hub-drive e-bikes: why a hub motor might actually be the better choice for you
Posted by twowheels_1life@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 185 comments
Mid-drive vs hub-drive e-bikes: why a hub motor might actually be the better choice for you
Online advice often leans toward mid-drives for their efficiency and natural feel, but after five years around e-bikes, I’ve seen where hub motors are objectively the better choice. It goes beyond the lower upfront price.
The biggest advantage of hub-drive ebikes is drivetrain longevity. Mid-drives push motor power directly through your chain and cassette, leading to faster wear and frequent replacements. In hub motors the drivetrain components only handle the power from your legs, not from the thrusts of a mid drive motor. For high-mileage commuters or anyone hauling cargo, I've seen savings in maintenance and parts add up quickly.
Hub systems are also mechanically simpler and more forgiving. They don't require perfect shifting technique under load and provide consistent power in stop-and-go traffic, especially when using a throttle. While mid-drives reward technical riding, hub drives are harder to misuse and generally stay on the road longer between services.
Mid-drives have their place, but hub systems get an undeserved bad rap -likely thanks to some very effective marketing from the competition. If you want a bike that just works without the finicky maintenance, a hub-drive is often the smarter long-term move.
Keen to know from other hub drive fans, why this system is your choice.
Extreme_Banana_912@reddit
i've had multiple hib motors and one mid-drive and they're just different.
My big issues with Hub drives:
1. the motor burns out on hills
the motor makes an annoying whine
you can't repair components of the motor while you can on a mid drive.
lee1026@reddit
For hills, just get a more powerful motor. US law permits very powerful motors, might as well as use them.
BassesNBikes@reddit
A 750W nominal DD hub motor is not exactly a powerhouse.
Recursive-Introspect@reddit
I've got a 3kw continuous on order, im excited.
BassesNBikes@reddit
So you need 4x the legal limit just to get up a hill?
What a superior drive system!
Recursive-Introspect@reddit
I think nit peaks at 5kw so more like 6-7 times the 750w limit. Need has nothing to do with it, I just think it's cool.
Major-Book-8803@reddit
Don’t forget what a pain in the ass it is if you get a rear flat and have to remove the wheel
Tomj_Oad@reddit
My Velotric Triker lets me change tubes without removing the wheel. How cool is that?
AdIndependent3610@reddit
That sounds so convenient and cool! How does it work?
LexLex07@reddit
*Triker.
How fast could your travel in it? 10miles? 15 miles?
Tomj_Oad@reddit
It's theoretically rated for 60 miles w some pedalling.
Reviewers got about 40 on pure throttle, no pedalling, so 60 with some work doesn't sound unbelievable
LexLex07@reddit
Don't talk "theoretically", we all gathered here to talk about real-wold numbers.
A typical 48v 25Ah is capable of 50-70 miles of range, but it all depends.
During winter times and high motor load - it does like 20-30 of REAL miles.
During summer and using PAS it does 100 miles on a single charge with some effort from my legs. Throttle only - depends on my AVG speed, 10-13mph will result in 70-90 miles, anything over - will result in significant range drop (20-30% less)
Tomj_Oad@reddit
I said I get about that. 35 to 40 if I don't pedal at all
MesugakiBratTamer@reddit
Bro's getting rekt by 1 motor cable
SeattleElectricBike@reddit
and 3 sets of washers that need to go in a certain order. Unless its a Ride 1up, then 4 sets of washers and taking the whole back end of the bike apart.
MesugakiBratTamer@reddit
Washer, Torque Washer, Torque washer
What's hard about that?
SadisticPawz@reddit
Some people use proper torque arms.
Dpizzle22@reddit
Having to do it with no stand on the side of the road with limited tools .
outdatedboat@reddit
Bro's getting rekt by a few washers
christo19862010@reddit
you don’t even need to take the washers off
Hopeful-Driver-3945@reddit
Had a flat today, took tyre out in 2 minutes. Granted I do need a wrench.
anhphamfmr@reddit
all 3 things you listed are not true for all hub drive motors. it seems that you had a bad experience with some cheap chinese junk geared hub drive.
Extreme_Banana_912@reddit
I'd agree wit that. I had an early RAD Power Bike, a Ride1Up, and the small-wheel REI Coop bike
you-just-me@reddit
Direct drive hubs are quiet.
LexLex07@reddit
But can't provide nice torque (you can't properly launch them)
Newprophet@reddit
Direct drive hubs with statorade don't/can't burn out on hills
Direct drive hubs are silent.
You absolutely can repair hub motors. Again direct drive only need bearings after tens of thousands of miles.
LexLex07@reddit
Friend's hub motor (350w) - is pretty silent compared to my roaring 500w, lol
We checked it along with 500w dd, and they are almost the same in loudness
joeg26reddit@reddit
HUB MOTORS BURN OUT faster and more often than mid drive
Hot_Block_9675@reddit
I have over 9K miles on mine. Not even a whimper and very, very quiet.
twowheels_1life@reddit (OP)
This might have been more true years ago, but modern hub motors from reputable brands use sine-wave controllers that are nearly silent, and today they're much better engineered to handle hills without overheating or "burning out." And in fact, mechanically, hub motors are actually easier and cheaper to service. They are so widely used that finding replacement bearings or internal gears is easier and more affordable than finding proprietary parts for a mid-drive systems. Definitely agree that it takes a little more elbow grease to change a rear flat though.
Hot_Block_9675@reddit
Agreed 100%. My modern hub motor pulls strongly on hills, that actually surprised me.
Schemeckles@reddit
I have a 1500 watt hub.
Get a bigger hub. They don't have the mechanical advantage mid-drive does. A 500-750 watt hub will struggle and inevitably fry on hills. 1000watt+...will be fine, assuming you're not going full throttle up a hill for 20 minutes straight. Bigger hubs dissipate heat faster.
Aside from my rear brake slightly rubbing which I have to adjust - it makes basically zero noise. Do some? Maybe... but in my experience - No.
True. Generally you can't repair them, you can try a rebuild but it's almost not worth with. However... they're much more reliable than Mid-Drive, so generally speaking.. you shouldn't need to work on it like you would a mid-drive.
Hopeful-Driver-3945@reddit
I have a rear hub motor and ridden 11,000 KM so far. I don't hear my motor at all and can easily go uphill. Motor revisions are also possible once they're done after 30-40k KM.
stormdelta@reddit
Depends a lot on the motor and steepness/length of the hill.
A geared hub will definitely burn out way more easily if abused as they can't dissipate heat as well and puts stress on the gearing, but they're also more efficient with higher torque, so are fine for shorter or shallower hills.
A direct hub motor is less efficient, producing even more heat and less torque, but they can be abused way more with higher power levels to power through a hill, at least to a point.
That's specific to geared hub motors. Direct hubs can be basically silent, you'll get a mild electrical hiss but even that can be pretty low with sine-wave and especially FOC controllers.
The internal planetary gearing of a geared hub can be serviced and replaced similar to how the internal gearing of mid-drive motor can. Hubs usually have a separate controller too which can make servicing/replacing the controller easier without having replace everything.
And of course a direct hub has no internal parts to worry about beyond the motor itself since it's literally just a motor with a wheel built around it.
JodyFinne@reddit
I just bought a Tenways class 3 Wayfarer step ebike with throttle. It has a 500 watt Bafang rear hub motor. And a 4.3 inch color screen display, Bafang controller, Samsung cell UL approved battery, 203mm rotors with hydraulic brakes, airshock with 100mm travel, MIK rear rack, metal not plastic pedals, turn signals and dual cadence and torque senior. It has a Shimano 8-speed cassette. With my military discount I paid $1699 with no sales tax shipped to my house last week. I live near the beach and don’t need the higher torque of a mid drive to climb hills or ride in heavy sand. Only advantage of a mid drive for me would be the easy removal of the back tire. But I can put slime or Flatout in my ebike tubes. No goats head thorns where I live just sandy soil.
Free_Katata_Fish@reddit
Did you write this because you regret not getting a mid-drive? I’ve owned a specialized mid drive for years, I’ve put 1000+ miles and everything you said is just wrong, brand and quality make a huge difference too.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
I have 10,000 miles split between hub drives and mid-drives.
You have no clue what you are saying: OP's post is factually correct.
He didn't say hub drives are categorically better. He said they have certain advantages and might make more sense for some users under certain circumstances.
BassesNBikes@reddit
"Online advice often leans toward mid-drives for their efficiency and natural feel, but after five years around e-bikes, I’ve seen where hub motors are objectively the better choice."
-OP
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
As OP pointed out, you should have highlighted WHERE. What you cite is in complete agreement with my summary.
BassesNBikes@reddit
Why would a literate person even include "where", much less emphasize it?
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
Because a literate person would have the good sense to know that "WHERE" makes the assertion conditional and totally changes the meaning of the assertion versus your completely dishonest narrative.
BassesNBikes@reddit
Ok. I'll play along. In what location are hub motors objectively the better choice?
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
Riding on flat pavement negates most of the benefits of a mid-drive.
Hub drives are simpler, pair better with throttles, reduce drivetrain wear, add redundancy due to independent operation from drivetrain, reduce drivetrain wear, are less prone to drivetrain damage from beginner riders, tend to offer more peak power for the buck.
BassesNBikes@reddit
That/ not a 'where'.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
Really? You are attempting to claim that "where" can only refer to geographical locations and not conditions/settings/situations?
Are you trolling me? Is English not your native language?
BassesNBikes@reddit
Even given that I'd say OP has maybe 1/2 a point IFF someone is violently opposed to maintaining their brakes.
Outside of DIY is there any major bicycle manufacturer featuring DD hub motors on their bikes? Ever wonder why not?
twowheels_1life@reddit (OP)
Respectfully, it looks like you may have forgotten to make the word "where" bold. Hub-drives are brilliant and deserve way more credit.
BassesNBikes@reddit
Why on Earth would I want to bold that rather than OP's claim that, and I quote, "hub motors are objectively the better choice"? "Ive seen where" is both atrocious grammar and pointless.
twowheels_1life@reddit (OP)
Ha, no! Exactly the opposite - I was gulping the kool-aid that hub drives just shouldn't exist, but I know that I was completely wrong. I'm a fan now.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
People who say hub drives should not exist are wrong.
People who say mid drives should not exist are wrong (not insinuating OP said this).
It's akin to claiming that all vehicles should be front wheel drive or rear wheel drive with complete disregard for priorities and use cases.
BIOLOGICALENGINEER19@reddit
you forgot to mention how hub motors make wheel building harder and the wheel more likely to fail because of extreme spoke angles, what's your take on that?
MesugakiBratTamer@reddit
1,000 miles over years are rookie numbers and signs you don't ride much
Spara-Extreme@reddit
If it’s commuting miles who cares? Highly doubt you’ve been hitting hard trails with a hub motor on a trash wheel.
MesugakiBratTamer@reddit
Here you have it chat;
This dude just dismissed all the gig-workers & commuters who probably delivered his doordash/uber eats so he could chow down on his meal while writing that god awful take online
Spara-Extreme@reddit
What exactly are you offended by, cupcake?
Thousands of commuting miles isnt going to be impacted by where your motor is on your bike.
lee1026@reddit
For us long distance commuters, we don’t hit hard trails, but we also enjoy not doing drive train maintenance.
Spara-Extreme@reddit
What 'drive train maintenance' do you think we do? In the many thousands of miles ive had my mountain bike, I haven't opened the motor once.
Furthermore, if you don't have a RD and cassette then you have a e-motorbike which is a different class of vehicle.
lee1026@reddit
If you are low miles (and 1000 miles in a few years is pretty low miles), the maintenance burden doesn’t really show up yet.
Quercus408@reddit
My partner has a Specialized and yeah, the quality of the bike itself is impressive. The different between an ebike company and a bicycle company that also makes ebikes.
dickeybarret@reddit
Biggest drawback to a hub drive that I've not seen mentioned is what happens if something happens to the wheel. You either need to get a new wheel built custom or get a whole new motor vs a mid drive that can use any off the shelf component. Could be the difference of hundreds of dollars in repair.
BIOLOGICALENGINEER19@reddit
not to mention that hub motor wheels are less reliable and prone to failure due to the extreme spoke angle. Wheel builders will not give warranties on hub motor builds because of this.
stormdelta@reddit
This is mostly a problem with poorly built wheels or low quality rims.
I've used direct drive hubs for my main bike for eight years, not a single wheel or spoke issue despite plenty of abuse.
First one for seven years, built by Grin Tech. Second one for over a year now, Grin motor and spokes on a WTB rim designed for ebikes built by local bike shop.
dickeybarret@reddit
But again. If you're in a crash or something you have to get specialized work done and you're likely without your bike for a while. Whereas I can use any off the shelf 700c wheel and be rolling again in minutes. Plus not every rider has access to a shop willing to take on that kinda job.
Reasonable-Rub2243@reddit
The drive train wear is no different from an acoustic bike, I don't see that as an issue. For me, the big advantage of mid-drive is that the motor gets to use the gears. With a rear hub drive, only your leg power goes through the gears. This means mid-drives have an advantage at climbing hills, which I do a lot of.
chrispark70@reddit
There is no such thing as an analog or acoustic bike. There are bikes and e-bikes. The bicycle has been around for like 135 years. The johnny-come-lately is the one that gets the modifier.
There is basically no advantage of going through the gears with hill climbing on anything other than a mountain bike, which usually have more than one under-drive gears. Regular electric bikes rarely if ever have even 1 underdrive gear (rear gear larger than front chainring). Running a full HP (plus whatever your legs generate_ through an bicycle gear set does indeed put a lot of wear on it.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
Retronyms are real: see also Black & white televisions and analog clocks.
chrispark70@reddit
B&W TVs were always known as B&W TVs. The first color TVs were available (1953) only a short time after the first B&Ws were available (46/47 (excluding mechanical TVs and non NTSC experimental TVs))
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
No they were not. They were simply known as television sets. There was no need to qualify that they were black & white when color televisions did not exist.
chrispark70@reddit
Yes they were. Color film had long existed before the first CRT NTSC TV. Plus life was color. Plus they all weren't black and white. There were also green ones.
Plus, if you said pedal bike, I wouldn't be saying this. There is literally no such thing as an acoustic bike. Acoustic refers to sound you big dummy.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
I'm not the one who used the term "acoustic bike", dummy.
The ads prior to the introduction of color television sets, simply referred to them as "television" (see link). It's ridiculous to think they would add a long qualifier for no reason.
Do you think they advertised "manual transmissions" too before anyone had seen an automatic transmission? Or they referred to grandfather clocks as "analog clocks" before digital clocks existed?
Use your brain.
http://www.borchertfield.com/2018/04/now-we-got-more-kinds-of-bums-1948.html?m=1
twowheels_1life@reddit (OP)
Not so sure about the drivetrain wear, but makes sense that mid drive is best for extremely hilly type of topography!
rabotat@reddit
I would suggest mid drive for anyone facing any amount of steep hills.
Another thing mid drive is good is for people who want to pedal and have it feel natural.
For commuters, in mostly flat areas, with a lot of stop and go traffic, hubs with throttle are probably the better choice.
And one last caveat - whatever motor you use stay away from cheap cadence sensors. Both torque sensors and throttles are more sensitive and have better timing. Good cadence sensors might exist, but I haven't had good experiences.
chrispark70@reddit
Mid drives only help climbing on mountain bikes. Other bikes generally do not have an underdrive gear, let alone multiple underdrive gears.
A mid drive makes no difference in natural feel, that is down to a torque sensor vs a cadence sensor. I have a hub drive with a torque sensor and it feels exactly the same as my pedal bike, just easier to pedal.
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
The mid drive is underdriven already. The low rims of a hub are what create the heat, from electromagnetic Eddie's.
Thus the mid is already at a higher rpm, usually 1000rpm minimum.
The assertion of no underdrive is not accurate either. The classic pre 2000s road bike, sure. But the compact crank set 48/34 with 11-34 cassette was widely available.
Gravel bikes brought on under gears for drop handlebar road bikes.
I run 40:40 to 40:10 ratio in an internal geared hub, with a mid drive. Climbs like a goat and does 35mph.
chrispark70@reddit
"The mid drive is underdriven already." I don't dispute this. The claim made is that going through the bicycle's drive train assists in climbing hills. In most cases, it does not.
34/34 is not underdrive. It's 1:1
Going through the drive train absolutely can and usually will assist in higher top speeds so long as the motor has the power to maintain that speed. I do not dispute this.
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
Suntour/shimano triples and Gravel bikes do have under gear.
Typo, I was referring to the 11-36 gears available for Shimano road sets like 105 and ultegra. With a compact front, that is 34:36
https://www.feine-fahrradteile.de/en/11-36-cassette-11-speed-suitable-for-shimano-ultegra-silver-gold-367g.html
And you ignored gravel bikes.
chrispark70@reddit
I did not say all. I said most and generally speaking. There are always exceptions. The vast majority of e-bikes being sold are not this. I'll quote myself
"Other bikes generally do not have an underdrive gear, let alone multiple underdrive gears."
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
But, generally, they do.
Pure road bikes generally don't, but they are not the majority of bikes.
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/shop/bikes/gravel-bikes
Every single one is under geared.
City bikes, same:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/shop/bikes/city-bikes
Cargo bikes? Under.
Road bikes are 1/3 of the market, mostly non-bike.
Just take the L. 66% of bikes have under gearing.
chrispark70@reddit
No, you're just bringing in a-typical bikes. The average e-bike being sold is not a Specialized. It's a generic bike sold DTC through either their own website or amazon/walmart/aliexpress etc.
The 2nd link has a 7 thousand Dollar bike and a 5 thousand dollar bike. The cheapest bike on the whole page is 4500USD. Most are well North of 5kusd.
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
There is a 49 bikes on the second link.
Some are are under $1000.
OTHER BIKEs includes non e-bikes. But sure, lets do just e-bikes.
MOST e-bikes are fatbikes, and are not intended to be pedaled anyway.
And why does under gearing matter anyway? If I want to go up a hill at 15mph, I am not using an undergear, I am using an overgear.
undergear means less than about 8 mph for a 700c bike.
chrispark70@reddit
"And why does under gearing matter anyway? If I want to go up a hill at 15mph, I am not using an undergear, I am using an overgear."
Whatever. You have no clue what you are talking about. You climb hills in low underdrive gear, not an overdrive gear.
lee1026@reddit
For any power rating, the mid drive usually have more torque than the hub, because it doesn’t have to sustain high RPMs.
chrispark70@reddit
Electric motors love low torque high rpm loads. But, I would say, generally speaking, the mid drive motors are higher quality. Nearly all electric motors are geared down. Even the mid drive motors are internally underdriven. Look at just about any piece of electrical industrial equipment and you will find a large underdrive belt system.
skintwo@reddit
I will say that a hub motor with a good torque sensor feels extraordinarily natural. I’m very happy with mine, other than that I destroyed the sensor once when I was pulling the wheel off and had to buy another one, and they ain’t cheap!
twowheels_1life@reddit (OP)
Totally agree with you - torque sensors are the way to go - and good ones at that!
rabotat@reddit
Yeah. When I had my normal bike converted that sensor was my biggest peeve.
It's a huge part of the whole experience, it can really ruin an otherwise good build.
I'd sooner spring for a better sensor than a stronger motor.
I-Am-The-Jeffro@reddit
I started out with a torque sensing hub drive and upgraded after a while to a mid drive. Hub drive is fine for basic commuting and if you want the ability to add a throttle. Downside is that added weight to the wheel makes pedaling the bike when unpowered much more of a chore than it should otherwise be due to the need to overcome that additional inertia. I use my bike unpowered more often then not because I use it for exercise and, for this, the mid drive is perfect as it's as easy to pedal, and as natural feeling, as an acoustic bike. Hub drives also generally don't have the range of mid drives as they need to be higher powered to cope with hilly terrain when compared to an equivalent mid drive.
StillPurple8683@reddit
I have the Velotric Discover 3. It has a sensor swap so it’s changeable from torque to cadence with the push of a button. I personally prefer torque as I feel I’m in control of the bike and I get a better workout. 🚴🏼♀️
kronicle2020@reddit
For most people I would agree.
I commute with dual hub, its easy, carefree, cost effective....until you get a flat (or need to grease hub gears, etc) Changing/doing it yourself....pain in the arse. (Note, I live in a small apartment, no garage, limited space for tools, and bike is disgustingly dirty from daily commute).
Sometimes I dream of getting a flat, easily pulling the lightweight tire off the bike, replacing/fixing the tube no issues, and slapping it back on...
I imagine a belt-driven mid drive would be sweet. For the cost I might as well get a car tho...;)
theuberdan@reddit
I'll say this just as much for any bike, electric or otherwise. One of the best things you can do for any sort of maintenance is getting a sturdy dual leg kickstand, preferably with adjustable height. Even with the hub motor it makes a world of difference. It acts as a pivot point so you can just lift up whichever end your working on instead of having to fight gravity. And if it's adjustable you can increase the height to give yourself more clearance. It's the next best thing behind carrying a portable work stand with you.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
Yes, rear hub flat is harder to change.
Using FlatOut mitigates the need to the point it is a trivial concern.
BassesNBikes@reddit
Hub drives are fine for non-technical riding without sustained steep climbs, and sure, you might have to take a little more care of your drivetrain with a mid-drive, but there is nothing a hub motor can do that a mid-drive can't do better.
anhphamfmr@reddit
can mid drive do regen brake?
BassesNBikes@reddit
Throttle, yes. Repairing a chain requires one small, light, packable tool and <1 oz of spare parts that are easily carried. Should outlive a hub motor by a significant period of time because it can be rebuilt.
But yeah, you'll miss out on that extra 3% range from regen...
stormdelta@reddit
The point of regen isn't range, it's lower maintenance and redundancy.
Which are also the best reasons to use a direct drive hub in the first place.
Just because it isn't what you need doesn't make those things invalid priorities for other people.
anhphamfmr@reddit
if a mid drive is pedal assist only, which is most of them (brose, yamaha, bosch, shimano, etc.), then you cannot add thottle yourself.
saying mid drive last longer than hub drive is just coping. nothing can outlast a direct drive hub motor.
BassesNBikes@reddit
If you say so,
anhphamfmr@reddit
it's not if, I am just stating facts.
BassesNBikes@reddit
If you say so.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
Yes, a mid-drive can implement a throttle. But hub drives are better suited for it.
jbcsee@reddit
There is a mid-drive releasing this year that does regen braking, so yes.
Plenty of mid-drive bikes have throttles.
Taiyoryu@reddit
Both problems can be avoided by getting an ebike with a belt drive paired with an internal gear hub. Better yet, one that is an automatic.
BassesNBikes@reddit
Or just use a heavy duty single speed chain with the IGH. Saves a ton of $ in exchange for minimal hassle. I'm still on the one I installed back in 2020.
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
1/8th chains are stout.
pfhlick@reddit
Literally the only reason to choose a hub motor ebike is because you can get one cheaper. In every single other aspect, they're compromised. I think most people who use the throttle and don't want to do bike maintenance should get an actual electric scooter. They're cheaper. It's a mystery to me why they're not more popular.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
All you had to do was read the post to understand other reasons why hub drives have advantages beyond cost.
Electric scooters are not as safe as an ebike and are, in some cases, more restricted.
pfhlick@reddit
The notion that hub drive bikes have fewer problems and go longer between service is laughable. Many owners barely know what a bicycle is, let alone that it needs cared for.
stormdelta@reddit
A direct drive hub has no additional moving parts beyond the motor itself. Less moving parts means less to go wrong, this isn't complicated.
A mid-drive obviously puts more strain on the drivetrain as well. I don't know why you guys keep pretending it doesn't.
A hub can operate even if the human drivetrain is broken (and vice versa). And a direct drive hub can even support regen braking with the right controller for additional redundancy and drastically lower physical brake maintenance.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
You can argue which have fewer problems.
You can't argue against the claim that hub drives put less stress on the drivetrain and are more tolerant of bad shifting practices.
You also can't argue that they are simpler and pair better with throttles.
stormdelta@reddit
Did you miss the part about lower maintenance?
I've ridden bikes as primary transit for decades, and ebikes for the last eight years.
I specifically prefer direct drive hubs for commuting because of higher reliability and lower maintenance.
Quercus408@reddit
I always worried that spamming the throttle is going to wear out the engine faster. I don't know if thats just mechanical superstition, or not. But for me the throttle is there to give me a little oomph after a complete stop, that's about it.
kamaka71@reddit
Mid-drives are superior
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
They are not superior across the board. That was the point of this post with actual examples of where hub drives have an advantage.
kamaka71@reddit
OP states that hub drive is OBJECTIVELY superior. I just stated my subjective opinion.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
OP qualified the statement with the conditional word "WHERE". It was not a categorical claim. Yours was.
funcentric@reddit
That's definitely the myth for sure.
kamaka71@reddit
How is it a myth?
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
Less of a myth than an unqualified and uninformed statement.
They are superior in some ways but inferior in others.
stormdelta@reddit
Every motor type has pros/cons and it's ridiculous to pretend otherwise.
There are scenarios in which a mid-drive is unquestionably superior like extreme grades that you'd fine on technical MTB trails. But there are also scenarios in which hubs are superior, particularly for minimal maintenance reliable commuter setups.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
This forum struggles with any hint of nuance.
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
Mid drive master race!
StrikeouTX@reddit
Hub drives suck for torque and weight balance. Wonky af
SadisticPawz@reddit
AI ahh post.
Mid drive 4EVA. The drivetrain wear was greatly exaggerated.
stormdelta@reddit
Not really, and I say that as someone who's usually pretty aggressive about calling that kind of thing out.
Also this is Reddit, you don't have to censor swear words like a 13 old on tiktok
chrispark70@reddit
The benefits of mid drives are massively exaggerated. For example, there is not real benefit in going through the drive train. On 99% of non-mountain bikes, there is no underdrive gear. All gears are overdrive. This robs the system of low end torque.
Even on mountain bikes, the primary purpose of a mid-drive is to keep the e components out of the wheels because wheels are pushed extremely in mountain bikes.
gladfelter@reddit
This comment misunderstands why mid drive motors have an efficiency advantage. Because they are directly tied to the cadence of the cyclist, they have a narrow range of rpms, just like anyone's legs. The drive train gearing keeps the motor and the cyclist in their efficient range. Mid drives have internal downgearing so that they are most efficient in typical cadences.
Hub drives have to operate in a much larger range of RPMs. They will be inefficient somewhere in that range, especially in class 3 speeds and with larger wheels where it's hard to develop enough low speed torque with plastic planetary gears.
lee1026@reddit
This is especially funny, because my big ass electric car that can do 200 mph still don’t require a bunch of gears, and the motor just do 0-200 mph without complaining about it.
0-28 mph on a bike is comparatively child’s play.
gladfelter@reddit
You can find charts showing that common electric cars' range is greatly decreased below 20mph. Speed limits and the heavy and powerful motors in those cars ensure that they don't spend a lot of time at those speeds, typically.
chrispark70@reddit
"Hub drives have to operate in a much larger range of RPMs. They will be inefficient somewhere in that range"
I don't disagree with this. Whether or not mid drives are geared down for maximum efficiency, it's not because the gears are helping. This is the claim I dispute.
The real benefits of mid drive systems, IMHO, is they are generally better built and keep the hubs of the rims normal and reduce the unsprung mass of the drive wheel.
I have a fairly small 250 watt hub motor. The first time I took the wheel off, I was genuinely shocked at how heavy it was. All my life I've been lifting bike rims and I was just like "WTF?" I would estimate (though I didn't weigh it) it weighed 10 pounds.
SadisticPawz@reddit
Counterpoint: clunk clank fun and I know my motor is safe when I shift down.
twowheels_1life@reddit (OP)
Definitely not AI, but if it seems polished, maybe I'll take it as a compliment, ha!
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
The kids on this board assume anything that looks organized and thought-out must be AI.
RCLogger@reddit
Most all hub drives have torque sensors now. I wouldn’t get one with cadence. I think that is what people are thinking of when they say mid-drives feel more natural. It’s the sensor. Although mid-drives do feel more naturally balanced.
RCLogger@reddit
The main reason I chose a hub drive is because I like a throttle. Very few mid drives have one.
funcentric@reddit
I made a video about torque sensors vs cadence sensors. This was before the latest versions of ebikes that now have the option to swap between the two. Generally mid drive are on higher end, legal bikes which won't have a throttle. That itself changes how they're used. Torque sensor basically is for people who enjoy riding bicycles and cadence are for those that would rather not be reminded that they are - or for those with leg issues or sensitivity in their legs.
Contrary to the information out there, mid drive isn't always the better option just b/c it's more expensive and therefore "better." It's all about use case. I would pay not to have a torque sensor personally, but it could definitely be the better choice for those out there that perhaps want a stealthier bike looking to get some actual exercise.
The reason cadence sensored bikes are typically a better bet for new folks is b/c majority of new adult ebike buyers haven't ridden a bicycle in 20 years. There's very little conversion from cyclist to ecyclist. New ebike consumers are under the impression that the electrical assist will solve all the problems that made them shy away from a regular bicycle. In most those cases, a hub motor with cadence sensor would be the way to go. Also newbs don't really know a whole lot about bicycle components. I still see people making the mistake of asking bicycle questions in ebike groups when the go-to resource is Park Tools who has all the answers and have been around forever.
When choose mid drive or hub motor or torque vs cadence, it really depends on each buyer. I wouldn't say one is superior to the other overall.
iregreteverything15@reddit
Excellent comment. Really cuts to the heart of the matter. Save this for the next time one of these "this motor type is objectively superior" posts come up.
twowheels_1life@reddit (OP)
Love it. Thanks for the input. Where can we see the video?
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
Depends on the torque settings available. The Cyc Photon is can set from 1:100w ghost pedal ratio, or 100:1w not really helping.
Normally I do 4:1 or 3:1, which is a very bike like assistance level.
VerifiedStupidity@reddit
I think these are some great points! :)
Maybe I’m in the minority but as a mountain biker, I much prefer mid drive for the torque alone. But also the more natural feel with the weight better balanced helps a lot with technical riding. I have only used cheaper hub drive bikes that have been terrible so I would be interested to see how a more expensive one fairs…
Hot_Block_9675@reddit
I have a hub drive on my Specialized Globe Haul ST cargo bike. I have a mid drive on my highly modded Yamaha Moro 07 mountain bike that is now a 32 mph street ripper. They both have their place depending on your use. I wouldn't trade either one of my set ups for another. They're both well dialed in for their tasks.
CG_Ops@reddit
Nice setup!
I've got ~1,500 miles on my Bulls Adventure that I setup as a do-it-all commuter/exercise bike. Still running all of the original equipment after 2 years. The last 600 miles have been added since adding my Volseed tuner, unlocking 28mph speeds for sprints down sketchy, shoulder-less roads with cars that zip by at 50-60mph - the reduced speed delta also helps my peace of mind.
I tend to run the trailer attached simply thanks to the additional berth cars provide when they see it, vs when it's just me and the bike
twowheels_1life@reddit (OP)
Nice set up! Which contexts do you prefer each bike for?
Hot_Block_9675@reddit
The best way for me to reply is with the Haul's picture :-) I'm a fortunate guy to have choices.
Major-Book-8803@reddit
What size front chain ring did you put on to get the extra speed?
Hot_Block_9675@reddit
I went with four more teeth, installed a new larger chain, a hidden controller from Italy inside the motor (a de-restricter) that went from class one to 3+ and moped higher pressure Kevlar lined street rated tires. 32 mph was more than adequate for me - and asking for more would have put too much stress on the motor with diminishing returns due to drag. That's also where ghost pedaling starts on my set -up. The Class one badging remains. :-)
oneilltattoo@reddit
Also, cruiser/chopper builds often have only a single gearflywheel, so there isnt any benefit to a mid drive realy
MesugakiBratTamer@reddit
Hub motor is 👑
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
All three of your bullets are correct. Your characterization as king is not.
Militant_Triangle@reddit
I have both. The middrive gets ridden more. It does need more maintenance. I bought everything to do that. I am about to go fix a bent derailer hanger and throw it on the back of the jeep for a weekend of riding. My main hub drive has a flat tire and I need to swap both tires and a new tube. you ride alot, learn to work on your bike. Nuff said and go ride!
Toiletpirate@reddit
I have a Specialized Turbo with a hub and a Larry vs. Harry Bullitt with a mid-drive. I can’t tell a difference in feel and they’ve both done thousands of miles without issue. I think the biggest factor is buying a reputable brand.
Though I will say, changing the tire on the hub motor is a huge PITA.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
When did Specialized start making hub drives? I know Trek introduced one a couple of years ago.
Toiletpirate@reddit
It's an older model. It was before the Vado. I think they launched with a flagship Turbo model for like $9000, then released mine a year or two later for around $3k. I haven't tried any of Specialized new models but this old one still has plenty of battery life and runs great so I haven't considered upgrading.
Fair-Discipline-1005@reddit
I'm also more for hub motor and throttle, after longer pedaling, I want to a litlle bit rest my legs with help of throttle...👍
BassesNBikes@reddit
You can get a superior mid-drive with a throttle, too, if you must.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
Some mid-drives offer throttles but it's less common.
But a throttle on a mid-drive isn't as effortless as you still have to shift gears. A hub drive doesn't care what gear you are in. And power doesn't have to be carefully regulated to avoid damage to the drivetrain.
Bermnerfs@reddit
There's no reason why you need a hub motor to have this capability. My BBS02 has a thumb throttle that works great. I could ride the whole time without pedaling at all if I really wanted. It's also nice to have while getting started on a steep section of trail. Use the throttle to get rolling then pedal the rest of the way up in first or second gear.
ralphiooo0@reddit
I think it depends on your budget!
Low: I would go a hub drive Medium: 50/50 but probably a mid with chain High: Mid with belt drive 😍
Belt drive is just sooo good. Wish it was standard on any commuter.
gpaw902@reddit
For me, the expense of a chain, sprockets, etc that the mid motor goes through once a year is easily covered by what I save in gas.
Comfortable-Fly5797@reddit
I want my ebike to feel like a bike. I hate the pushing feel from a rear hub. I like with my mid drive I can still use my gears effectively and fine tune how much exercise I want to get. Hub drive felt like there was no point using my gears except very steep hills.
Also changing a rear flat with a hub drive is a pain.
Big_footed_hobbit@reddit
I put a motor in the front, so I have all wheel drive :-)
DonnPT@reddit
Plus the one on the back - or in the middle? Why not all 3?
Big_footed_hobbit@reddit
In the back is is my muscle power. So I am still within the legal limit.
Also I didn’t want to sync 2 controllers and motors
DonnPT@reddit
Now do direct drive hub vs geared hub!
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit
Snapped a derailleur on my hub drive, rode home on the throttle for 30 miles no issues.
But throttles are apparently a mass assault weapon nowadays. Idk if you can do that with a torque sensor, maybe a cadence sensor
Shiney_Metal_Ass@reddit
Do you know what a quick link is?
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
Shorten the chain, make it a single speed. Old pre cell phone method of getting home.
furlintdust@reddit
I was so worried that I picked incorrectly because I bought a hub motor specifically to get me up hills. But I’m very happy with my 39lb 350W hub motor bike. I love not having to be in the perfect gear when I’m in traffic. It gets me up the hills just fine in torque sensing mode. I can hardly hear it. I’m very happy with it.
Significant-Pen-6049@reddit
Pros and cons for both.
squidgyhead@reddit
The big advantage of mid drives is that you can swap out wheels for changing conditions. In particular, winter tires vs summer tires. Sure, you could change these by changing tires on the same wheel. But I live somewhere where we alternate weekly between big dumps of snow and bare pavement; changing wheels is practical, whereas changing tires is not.
The rest of the household also needs different tires for different conditions, so this is a huge time savings. There is an upfront cost to getting a spare wheel set (which can be pretty low for normal sized qr wheels), but anything getting us out of driving seems like a savings overall.
christo19862010@reddit
i’ve just returned a mid drive , never again
raleel@reddit
Drive train longevity could be mitigated by the use of a belt and internal hub or a belt and MGU.
Internal hub also makes shifting much easier as well. You can shift while stopped even.
JeremyFromKenosha@reddit
It's worth noting that a mid drive eBike SHOULD be designed with an eye toward more torque put into the drivetrain. They SHOULD use heavier duty chains & sprockets. The belt drive/IGH models use heavy duty IGHs for this purpose, and the Gates Carbon Drive belt is already heavier duty. (though less efficient) than a chain & derailleur arrangement.
I have both, in some combinations:
I think what hurt the reputation of hub drives was that at first, they were provided only with cadence sensors, while mid drives were provided with more refined torque sensors. So the laymen chalked up some dislikes to the motor, rather than the sensor.
A refined cadence sensor can be 90% as good as a refined torque sensor, in my experience.
I know how they all work, so I don't mind that they give different experiences.
iSellNuds4RedditGold@reddit
What you say makes sense outside of Europe. Here with the 250w limit mid drives are crucial to be able to make the most out of them specially on hills or when carrying cargo. Also their installation in acoustic bikes is way easier and you don't need to swap a wheel or have a wheel redone.
StienStein@reddit
People get incredibly religious about this. I really like my hub motor cargo bike because regenerative braking is awesome for my use case, but whatever works for you is whatever works for you.
4look4rd@reddit
It’s more about ride experience than anything else.
Mid drives are way more natural than hub drives, feels like you’re riding a regular bike, weight distribution is better, and the better actual bike companies are likely using mid drives. If you want a premium bike with broad support network that rides as close to a regular bike as possible the a mid drive is the right choice.
Hub drives are the Wild West, there are good bikes and cheap crap. The better ones have torque sensors, and modern good hub drives can give you all the torque you need. The problem here is separating the crap from the good stuff, lots of D2C brands with questionable repair and dealership networks, but the value is certainly here.
I have 3k miles on my mid drive Gazelle and 1k on my hub drive Lectric one. Both bikes are good, the Lectric let me down due to a catastrophic build quality issue but you can’t deny the value on that bike.
Before that I had a rad runner plus, which I put 2k miles before the battery died and it became a dead weight, I also spent a lot of money on upgrades that should be standard.
Unhappy-Plastic2017@reddit
the real question is what is the best motor for fatties?
bensonr2@reddit
The mid drives tear through your drive train is overrated.
My feeling is a lot of that came from the DIY crowd 90 percent of whom were using the Bafang BB motors.
Nothing against Bafang, I think they are the best value out there.
But the BB motors had an extreme amount of torque mostly installed to cheaper and run down donor bikes.
And most important that had both throttle and no torque sensing. So a lot of people were riding without being in the proper gear because they weren't feeling it in the drive train.
Spara-Extreme@reddit
If you’re commuting, it doesn’t really matter where the motor is. If your use case is mountain biking or you’re one of those crazies that like e-bike road bikes then this isn’t even a discussion. Mid drive is the superior physical placement for a motor.
you-just-me@reddit
I bought mine because it just seemed simpler. The hub has an integrated torque sensor and being direct drive it's virtually silent.
Quercus408@reddit
Good points, all. I commuted on a hub-motor ebike for about 2 years before I got a job that was much further away from where I live, and was overall happy with the performance.
My big complaint is probably more of a "me" thing, but I find it very frustrating to change the tube on a hub-motor. I also never got more flats in my life than when I was running a hub motor. Almost always rear wheel flats. I tried changing tires; the Sunlites that came with the bike, Surly Extraterrestrials, Maxxis Hookworms, different brands of tubes, didn't matter.
My partner has a Turbo Vado that I am blown away by, and I'm researching the pros and cons of an internal geared hub with belt drive, in addition to mid-drive versus hub-drive, while I save up for an upgrade.
markloch@reddit
Depends entirely on the application, and hub motor doesn’t fit any of mine.
chrispark70@reddit
Keeping your bike in the right gear is essential for good hub performance too. Otherwise, you're just not going to be putting much power (from your legs) into the system. Throttles are very hard on hubs, especially where they are used most, on hills. A lot of that power is just directly converted into heat in the hub. Adding torque and power with your legs makes hubs much more efficient and cause less wear in the hub.
The hub is loaded with thin wires with a very thin enamel coating. Extreme heat cycles damage this coating. If anywhere in the hub these wires burn away the enamel in 2 wires next to each other, the hub is damaged and may even fail entirely. Even if it doesn't fail entirely, it will make the next shorted turns much more likely and will happen even faster than the first one.
Major-Book-8803@reddit
I have over 10,000 miles on my Yamaha crosscore mid drive E bike. you will definitely experience more chain and cassette wear with a mid drive motor. I have found that if I’m consistent about waxing my chain on a regular basis, I can get 2500 miles before I need to replace the chain and about 5000 miles out of a cassette.
BoringBob84@reddit
Those are all good points. For me, the ability to climb steep hills is important. Also, I don't like the heavy weight in the back wheel and the difficulty of fixing a flat tire with a hub-drive motor.
However, if I lived in an area without so many hills, I would probably still get a hub-drive motor for the reasons that you stated. It would be convenient to be able to shift gears without cutting out the motor first.
KostyaFedot@reddit
Hub is for emopeds. Which I have no interest. I have moped and e-bicycle.