Do "regular" pilot skills transfer to piloting a spacecraft?
Posted by greyhoundbuddy@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 33 comments
I'm following the Artemis II mission pretty closely, and I've gotten curious about something. The pilot of Artemis II is a navy pilot with extensive prior flying experience. What I'm wondering though, is how does that skillset for flying aircraft in the atmosphere transfer to piloting the Integrity (or any other) spacecraft? I assume the controls are very different, and the things a spacecraft does in space and during re-entry are very different from flying an airplane or helicopter in the atmosphere. OTOH, it seems natural and expected that you would assign the pilot position of a spacecraft to someone who is an aircraft pilot, and that someone who is not an aircraft pilot would simply be unqualified.
I guess what I'm wondering is, for those of you who are pilots, do you feel you would have a leg up in learning to become a spacecraft pilot? Would some of your skillset transfer to spacecraft? Or would you basically be starting from zero, just like someone who has never flown an aircraft?
ManageThoseFootballs@reddit
The most transferrable stage is probably "prox ops", or proximity operations. Before doing their TLI burn, the Artemis 2 crew tested out maneuvering the spacecraft in 6 degrees of freedom firing their RCS thrusters with the translational hand controllers.
But there are no aerodynamic forces etc, and there's no "up" and "down", so it's a different style of "flight" entirely.
cottonheadedninnymug@reddit
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether
StJsub@reddit
It's an entirely different kind of flying!
moofie74@reddit
So I think what you’re saying is, the kind of flying is entirely different? And also not the same?
ManageThoseFootballs@reddit
I think it’s a totally different kind of flying.
jeffbell@reddit
One additional little one: The controls of the Apollo lunar lander were designed to mimic helicopter controls.
devildog2067@reddit
Spam in a can…
You don’t really “pilot” a spacecraft like Artemis because it doesn’t fly. Nothing in a pilot’s experience in terms of aerodynamics really translates.
That said, lots of things from a test pilot’s experience in terms of following protocols, operating highly engineered systems, troubleshooting, etc very directly translate. You might see similar skillsets from submarine officers, though… it’s not the “piloting” it’s the “operating a complex machine”.
greyhoundbuddy@reddit (OP)
I like the "operating a complex machine" phrasing! And not just complexity, but responding in a time-critical situation. Thinking further, I would imagine an air traffic controller could have a good transferring skillset - but if NASA were to assign a spacecraft pilot slot to an ATC I suspect there would be a lot of pushback if the ATC is not an experienced aircraft "pilot".
rally89@reddit
As an air traffic controller, I promise you that the skillset is not transferable.
flightist@reddit
Test pilots got the nod in the first place because they’re trained to develop expert level knowledge about those complex machines and how they operate prior to leaving the ground inside them for the first time, because some of the time nobody’s ever left the ground inside them before they do.
Not knocking “regular” pilots but that is a particularly meaningful difference.
TheSnowmansIceCastle@reddit
It's worth mentioning that test pilots are actually test engineers. They're trained to follow specific protocols for each flight, collect data, and then debrief on the results. The whole 'hot shot pilot' thing isn't the reality of the profession. That skill set is incredibly useful for any kind of technical job inclding spaceflight. Source: kid went to TPS and had 2 stints teaching at Pax as well as working in 2 different test squadrons.
the_Q_spice@reddit
To add to this, “piloting” spacecraft is really weird.
You are thinking in terms of orbital dynamics and ellipses instead of straight lines.
Conceptually, the way Apollo went to the moon was;
Burn into an orbit around earth, then do a retrograde burn (backwards) to stabilize your orbit. Wait for an intercept point on an elliptical path between the earth and moon, then burn again. Intercept the moon, then retrograde burn to stabilize your orbit around the moon.
You speed up to increase altitude, you slow down to decrease altitude, you speed up in different directions to go side to side or rotate your orbit, roll is the only thing that remains the same.
vortex_ring_state@reddit
CRM is another huge one. Working with others, be them right beside you or over a radio. Being able to prioritise information, work in real time, thinking ahead....etc. There are a lot of pilot skills that don't involve moving sticks and pedals around.
anun4h@reddit
They are not flying… they are falling with style
old_righty@reddit
Someone’s poisoned the water hole!
greyhoundbuddy@reddit (OP)
Artemis pilot Victor Glover, described it as "riding a fireball through the atmosphere." For some reason, NASA cut that out of the video clip :-)
equatorbit@reddit
Second part is important. Like how Armstrong saved Gemini 8
lurking-constantly@reddit
NASA prefers Navy pilots for the capsule missions because the splashdown highly resembles the force of an average Navy landing.
That_Light5297@reddit
Crew resource management, cross check, checklist procedures, systems knowledge, emergency procedures, communications all directly transfer. Docking procedures are same but different. The physics of motion are different and requires opposite inputs to take out what you put in, but the skills of close formation flying are the best analog to prep pilots for it. Not a lot of people are trained to operate big very complex machines in very close proximity to each other in a flight-ish environment.
Also the entire pilot vehicle interface has largely been modeled after lessons learned from manned aircraft so it makes sense to have someone from an aviation background in the seat
Awalawal@reddit
I've actually always assumed that submarine officers would provide almost as good of quality astronauts. They have all the same CRM/Systems knowledge/emergency procedure background (and arguably more). They also have the "advantage" of captaining their ships without visual inputs and lots of experience with long duration isolation. Perhaps they would be more suited to interplanetary length flights than LEO-type stuff, but I'm guessing that they would be fine there too.
That_Light5297@reddit
I’ve never been in a submarine so I wouldn’t know. But if you look at the development of the space program it started with single seat rockets. Which makes since they would want fighter pilots of single seat aircraft to pilot them.
It was foot stomped all through my pilot training “single seat mentality!” Even with an instructor in the back seat. “This is YOUR airplane and YOU are the only one in charge of making decisions. Solve your own problems and make the mission happen”. Especially in the early days that was an important mentality to have. The space craft were designed that way initially and it became a part of the culture.
Yes they have a huge support network back on earth but they needed the people who were comfortable thinking and acting in high stress dynamic situations on their own to bring their craft home safe.
And the few instances of hand flying the craft (docking, landing in the moon) heavily favored aviators vs submariners.
Delicious-Sky-9384@reddit
From time to time that delicate and yet precise touch of a test pilot comes into play even if ti is reflected in different motions of the hands and wrists. In particular the apollo astronauts landing the LEM, the shuttle astronauts landing the shuttle, and orbital rendevous. The thing about the test pilots that most others would not have is the ability to precisely repeat motions and not overcorrect or undercorrect. This is a skill that would translate. Of course all the other skills mentioned would be useful too.
That_Light5297@reddit
That’s formation flying and landing a plane in a nutshell. Observe orient decide act repeat. Analyze your geometry and vector figure out what kind of change you need to make. Little correction. Reassess, little correction, repeat, repeat, repeat.
It’s not necessarily the ability to fly an air breathing fixed wing airplane they require. It’s the mentality, instincts, and quick analytical problem solving that sets them apart
daneato@reddit
After the major thruster malfunctions on Gemini 8 astronaut Dave Scott said he could basically watch Neil Armstrong rewire his brain in real time to successfully regain control. That is the sort of coordination and understanding that comes from thousands of hours as a pilot.
NeedleGunMonkey@reddit
NASA has successfully produced more astronauts from diverse backgrounds more than any other agency.
NASA puts all their astronauts through flying T38 and T45s. There’s a reason for that.
imagineterrain@reddit
Most spacecraft, satellites and probes, are operated from the ground, almost in real-time (for satellites in near earth orbit) but with long delays for vehicles that are farther from the earth. These spacecraft, of course, don't have nearly the precision maneuvers that crewed spacecraft can perform, and they couldn't react to certain emergencies that crews might be able to fix, but the vehicles all share fundamentally the same attitude control systems.
I don't have personal experience of this, but my dad served as the chief of space systems engineering for a couple of communications satellite companies, and I got to watch maneuvers over the years. Engineers planned the maneuvers and supervised them; controllers, who came from a variety of backgrounds, monitored systems and uploaded commands. The control rooms looked more like SCADA system than like cockpits. I sensed a social difference between the engineers and the controllers, who were more often on shift work. If there were any pilots, it was from prior military careers or hobby flying.
Heisenburg7@reddit
I think so, things like monitoring attitude and altitude, and complex procedures like docking. Each of the astronauts in Artemis got a chance to pilot the spacecraft in space. Many of the spaceplanes that were flown were literally aircraft with rocket jets. It would be pretty awesome to see a day where we could personally own/fly spaceplanes/spacecraft into space.
ab0ngcd@reddit
What I haven’t heard is reaction to unexpected events, being able to process and evaluate the situation, ignoring unimportant stimuli and continuing operating while the vehicle is floundering around uncontrollably.
Blue_Etalon@reddit
Shawn Ryan had Butch Wilmore on recently (of Starliner stuck in space fame) and this was definitely a great example of a test pilot explaining how to troubleshoot a spacecraft that was not “flying” properly.
SRM_Thornfoot@reddit
These are not the skillsets you are looking for.
You are looking for someone who can sit still for long periods of time while staring at a screen.
In other words, a couch potato.
XenoRyet@reddit
You are correct that controlling the movement of the craft is a very different skill set, but things like spatial awareness, instrumentation workflows, communication, and sort of all the other parts of aviation that aren't actually flying the aircraft do transfer pretty well.
Maclunkey4U@reddit
I think it's more about a person's ability to understand complex systems and troubleshoot them - following checklists and procedures, a general understanding of concepts like thermodynamics and other branches of physics/science. The ability to learn that information and internalize it though simulations and practices, then recall it when/if necessary.
Certainly not unique to being a pilot, but that checks all the boxes, and military pilots are already in position to be evaluated for all of those things just by the nature of them being in the military and going through all their promotion boards and whatnot.
agha0013@reddit
skills transfer is being great at systems management and operation, problem solving, stuff like that.
Being able to fly a plane and fly a spacecraft, there's very litte in common between the two for this kind of stuff. At least with the shuttle they still had to fly an aircraft down to the ground. capsules don't need that.
But all the other skills you develop to be a very effective combat pilot come into play.