What happens in five years when we have even more unemployed CFIs

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120SR@reddit

The pyramid scheme collapses on its self and thousands of CFIs go drive for uber, sell insurance, manage a restaurant, etc. in order to feed themselves and pay off 100k plus in debt. It’s not pretty.

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brongchong@reddit

The mistake was racking up $100K in debt. There’s ZERO reason to do that.

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roguemenace@reddit

There’s ZERO reason to do that

Sure there is, if you made it through the training>CFI>Airlines pipeline then 100K of debt is one of the best investments you could have made.

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Sure. The big uncertainty is that “if” though. There’s an increasing number of people hoping for that if and not getting it, making the 100k debt just about the worst investment you could make. Very much a feast or famine, with almost no in between, kinda proposition.

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scofnerf@reddit

And “IF” World War III causes a crisis in which the US gets surpassed by several other super powers, investing your 401k into S&P 500 indexes could be the worst investment of your life.

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phlflyguy@reddit

The wonderful thing about investment accounts is you can continually adjust to minimize risk. You can't do that with $100K in debt with a meager income to cover it.

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Teardownstrongholds@reddit

You have money to invest because you are qualified for a job. Why are you critical of other people doing the exact same thing you did?

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fbt70@reddit

Are u gonna be a pussy the rest of your life or just take a chance on yourself doing what you love

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mfsp2025@reddit

That $100k in debt I took was the difference between me being a regional captain right now vs still being a CFI trying to find a job.

I had R-ATP to fall back on and got hired right at 1000 hours. If I paid as I went and had to build to 1500, I probably would still be instructing today. But who knows.

Timing is everything. The guys who did ATP and started when I did are all probably at majors now. I needed a four year degree anyways so I went the college route. No regrets though

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LowTimePilot@reddit

People pursue dreams. Life is a gamble and quite frankly you can't fault someone for pursuing the dream of being an airline pilot even if they were born working class. What the hell is the point of life if not for chasing goals, hobbies, and dreams?

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74_Jeep_Cherokee@reddit

Both right.

You knew the score and went for it any way? I applaud you and wish you the best.

You did zero research and plopped down 100k? I still wish you the best but that lesson is going to hurt.

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LowTimePilot@reddit

Thanks. I firmly believe life is too short to just give up on dreams and settle.

We're the last living group of people who will get to fly an airliner. Kids born a decade from now will live to see an industry of automation. This job is a once in a civilization opportunity, like the Knocker-Uppers or the elevator operator.

I'll be damned if I miss it.

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__joel_t@reddit

But... Pilot shortage! Zero to hero at a legacy!

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Guysmiley777@reddit

Unprecedented industry growth! Look at these projections! Graphs! Charts!

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Key_Math8192@reddit

Bold of you to assume that getting a CFI qualifies someone to manage a restaurant. In this economy it’s more like wash dishes in a restaurant.

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caelum52@reddit (OP)

Many of the people that I went to flight school with are doing office admin, working in an FBO, or anything on the hopes that they can get a job as a CFI

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bhalter80@reddit

Pretty soon they're going to forget about CFI and find that they're in jobs with better pay/hours than CFI and will abandon aviation altogether now

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nightlanding@reddit

I had a bunch of IT contractors as students. I realized they made enough money to pay me with little strain, but there was no way I could pay myself. I beat my head against reality for some time, and then became an IT contractor myself and CFI stuff on the side.

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bhalter80@reddit

I'm with you, 1300 hours, work in IT, CFI because I really like teaching and have 1-2 students at a time. I like this set up much better than even imagining being a full time CFI having to use that money to pay bills

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timklotz@reddit

I'd love to pick your brain on how you landed here. I got into started flying recently at 39 and it's doesn't really make sense for me to walk away from IT and take a pay cut for ten years to pursue a brief career in aviation, but I am considering going the CFI route as a sort of soft retirement.

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bhalter80@reddit

I started flying when I was 30 when I could almost afford it. Since then I've done very well in my corp job.

Like you signing up for the pay cut doesn't seem like a smart idea. The industry is going to kick me out at some point, The question is how hard do I want to work to stay in it or do I take the money I've made, and go do something more fulfilling for a lot less money at that point.

I've got a couple of aviation related software products I'd like to bring to market so I'm working on that alongside my corp job and CFI because flight schools have very antiquated software systems and there is so much we can do with the data that the plane generates. I don't know if closer to 50 than 40 I have the patience or interest in 135 life which sounds like it can be great but some of your clients are downright d-bags or even 121 where you're working every shit shift that exists until you have enough seniority not to.

I might be a career CFI and that would be pretty cool because I'd still get to change people's lives.

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nightlanding@reddit

I agree, a CFI job should be an end-of-career job, not a first job where you are barely one step ahead of the students.

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bhalter80@reddit

I went to college at a research university some of the professors were great researchers with plenty of accolades but little to no interest in teaching. At the same time they're supported by grad students who have limited to no industry experience or the insight to go beyond the theoretical to the practical application of what's being taught but are effectively indentured servants like CFIs on their way to their PhD.

Beginning of career or end of career the biggest thing is be passionate about doing it

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nightlanding@reddit

Plenty of CFIs are crap at teaching and would not ever go near doing it if there was any other way. Now their students get their CFIs and so on, so you end up as a student like 5 copies away from the guy that was good at teaching. Maybe this explains all the "I failed 20 checkrides in a row and now none of my students can pass a ride" posts.

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bhalter80@reddit

I was expecting the group of entitles pilots saying there was no affordable way to get to hiring moms without taxing students for free time instructing

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Flyingredditburner44@reddit

You know the market is beyond fried when you can't get a job paying 20k/year.

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dopexile@reddit

Just imagine when people learn that they are in a highly cyclical industry. Hundreds of airlines have filed for bankruptcy. US Airways did it 3 times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airline_bankruptcies_in_the_United_States

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JediCheese@reddit

I moved across the country in 2006 for a CFI job that was an independent contractor for $20k a year. I lived in an illegally converted porch bedroom in a bad part of town.

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Otherwise-Pen70@reddit

Sometimes I had to drag my stereo equipment to the pawn shop to eat but that is what I had to do and I always bought it back - it was my emergency savings

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Dry-Horror-4188@reddit

So when I started my work career I lived in a converted porch (called it a studio) in a ghetto part of San Jose, with gun shots heard regularly at night. It doesn't matter if you are a CFI or an Accountant, it is called moving out and starting a career. BTW, I worked for a Computer Company in Silicon Valley at the time.

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JohnNardeau@reddit

Yeah that's not how it should work. If you're working full time you should be able to afford to at least feel safe and have an actual space to live in, no matter what the job is.

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haveanairforceday@reddit

Thats because low time CFI is treated like an internship both by the airlines and by a lot of the people trying to go to the airlines

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Otherwise-Pen70@reddit

If they are doing that than it is time for them to move on. Fly, Fly Fly

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nineyourefine@reddit

Just to give some context from those of us who continually say "Welcome to aviation".

I started flight training a couple years after 9/11. I went basically full time flight training in 06/07. At my flight school there was at one point 9 of us who became friends and all got our ratings together with the dream of being airline pilots. Out of those 9, 3 of us are major airline pilots. Two kept instructing on the side while working a 9-5 job, the other guys stopped instructing when they couldn't find CFI jobs during the financial crisis. I've lost touch with them but at least on social media, the guys who didn't go airline/continue instructor stopped flying entirely.

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CryOfTheWind@reddit

Was pretty much the same for most of my coworkers back in the day. We all worked the FBO ramp and some of them front desk at the school too. Sat waiting for instructor positions to open and then after that hope to use the connections made to move on the the Navajos and King Airs there.

It worked though. The school didn't hire any instructor who hadn't worked the ramp or desk for a good 3 year period around the 08' crash. The local charter companies same idea, anyone who was a fresh low time pilot hired to fly any airplane at that airport came from the FBO, not a single low timer hired from outside that group.

When the local companies know your name and face it makes getting hired there much easier!

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Guysmiley777@reddit

Yes that makes sense based on the massive oversupply of low time pilots with CFI ratings but no work experience trying to find that first instructing job.

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Navydevildoc@reddit

My CFI actually went to culinary school and worked at some pretty high brow places in San Diego before deciding he wanted to fly planes. He's off at a regional now, but I suppose if it ever collapsed he could go back to high end restaurants.

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China_bot42069@reddit

GA death spiral will continue. More at 5

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Throwawayyacc22@reddit

Sad to think 30 years ago most people could afford a 172 or something but it’s increasingly becoming a rich man’s game, just like every other thing, ever.

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El_Caganer@reddit

Same can be said for single family houses 🤷

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Throwawayyacc22@reddit

Exactly, see the last sentence of my comment.

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HoldinTheBag@reddit

Can anyone spare $100 so I can buy a coffee and fill my gas tank

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Throwawayyacc22@reddit

Sorry bud, shouldn’t have had avocado on your toast this morning!

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China_bot42069@reddit

Fucking boomers man. Some how avocado and boot straps will fix the worlds problems while this dipshits destroy the world for generations.

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ChiFxxd@reddit

Become a dispatcher. With a CFI+ you can take an accelerated 2-week course and pass a written that is very close to the ATM written. 1yr at a regional and a legacy will hire you. 100k first year. 130+ days off per year, jumpseat access, best paid group other than pilots at the airline.

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takeoffconfig@reddit

I did this, got into a 135 dispatch department, then convinced them to type in the jet when I was really low time.

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HoldinTheBag@reddit

Same thing that always happens.

Wages will stagnate while inflation builds. In 5 years Regional FOs will still make 90K a year while an average lunch in the terminal will cost $30-40 and a coffee will be $10.

Pilots will see their non-flying peers making more money with better schedules and less responsibility. Some pilots will get tired of barely making rent and quit to go work other jobs. High school students will be pressured by mentors to avoid a pilot career and the student pilot pipeline will dry up even more. People already in the pipeline will be discouraged by lack of opportunities and quit. If they raise the retirement age or start increasing the use of single pilot ops everything will get worse and even more people will quit.

That will be the status quo for however long it takes (prob ten years) until everything implodes when suddenly the industry has a ton of openings and not enough young pilots to fill the positions. The regionals, or whatever entry level airline exists at the time, will start hiring anyone who is qualified and even offer bonuses. Wages will increase. There will be widespread marketing of a pilot shortage and flight schools will be filled to capacity.

Then rinse and repeat.

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FuruTakka@reddit

You say that as thought it’s already happened before 🤔

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GeorgiaPilot172@reddit

All of this has happened before and will happen again. So say we all.

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flyingforfun3@reddit

It definitely has. My instructor started prior to 2008. My colleague I flew with got his CFI on 9/10/01. My boss started flying in the late 80s. They all tell similar stories.

Airlines hire till they furlough. Aviation is a game of musical chairs. Get in and hope you have enough seniority to miss the furlough.

I’ve been blessed to only have one job go away in my 16 years of flying. I know a guy that’s been at 5 different 91 flight departments, every one shuts down. My friend was living large at spirit, then the engine stuff happened and he got downgraded.. he’s living large at a major now.

It’s definitely a cyclical industry. High fuel costs are going to increase ticket costs eventually. Inflation is shrinking the dollar. It’s eventually going to slow air travel.

There’s always a downturn then it starts back with the upturn. Just gotta get in the right job and ride it out.

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AlbiMappaMundi@reddit

The ongoing march of general aviation becoming a hobby for the affluent will continue. People not able to get jobs, or not having separate income/wealth (whether that be from a working spouse, a full-time job, a trust, etc) will be increasingly pressured, and give up their pursuit of aviation.

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PRISONER_709@reddit

In europe it's already like this! You either fly to train or you're rich.

I find it odd that you guys managed to keep aviation a hobby for regular people this long, considering your cost of living! Gg tho

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KITTYONFYRE@reddit

The ongoing march of general aviation becoming a hobby for the affluent will continue.

I don’t think so: I think it’ll continue to become their transport. nobody gets into GA for fun, even rich people. unfortunately. but private jet usage will no doubt continue to set records every year.

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kdegraaf@reddit

nobody gets into GA for fun

There it is, the dumbest thing I'll read on the Internet today.

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randylush@reddit

Yup. It amazes me that people are capable of using a keyboard and spelling mostly correctly, and yet say such profoundly stupid things.

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liquidsys@reddit

Nothing is more untrue than what you wrote.

I, an affluent person, absolutely got into GA for fun.

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AlbiMappaMundi@reddit

Hard disagree. I'm in the SF Bay Area, which is a place with loads of money. Of all of the people I've trained or am currently instructing, literally only a single one has had any sort of professional flying aspirations. The rest have wanted to get their certificates simply as hobbyist pilots, flying for fun.

Yes, there will continue to be plenty of demand for private jets, as the super wealthy want private transport. But I've worked with plenty of upper middle class / not quite super rich people who see GA as fun, whether that's being a weekend warrior or working towards buying their own plane.

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KITTYONFYRE@reddit

but how many will do anything with their cert after getting it? relatively few remain active pilots for long

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AlbiMappaMundi@reddit

I mean, I'm in a club with 100+ active pilots, basically zero of whom have career/airline aspirations. I've been in another local club with \~200 pilots, many who fly regularly.

I think there's some bias here of what populations people see, and where you're located. Yes, there are plenty of people who get their Private and don't do much with it, or those who fall out from training along the way. There are also plenty of active hobbyists who fly regularly.

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KITTYONFYRE@reddit

I mean, I'm in a club with 100+ active pilots, basically zero of whom have career/airline aspirations. I've been in another local club with ~200 pilots, many who fly regularly.

In a metro area of 7.8 million people. sure, you're gonna have active communities of underwater basket weavers, too. that doesn't mean it's popular

GA has been declining since the 80s

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SSMDive@reddit

"nobody gets into GA for fun"

Uh, it is pretty much the only reason I fly... for fun. Sure I have a CPL and work some, but that is also mainly for fun and just to help out. I flew \~10 years before I bothered to get a CPL.

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caelum52@reddit (OP)

I am pretty much in that camp. I work a full-time office job and my wife also works full-time, I pretty much only build five hours a week as a CFI.

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haveanairforceday@reddit

Have you looked at other time building options? Flying or instructing gliders? Grinding out time in an inexpensive aircraft like a small LSA?

Im not a CFI, just curious what your outlook on these kind of things is

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Flyingredditburner44@reddit

Buying flight time for the sake of flight time is possibly the worst thing you could do in this hiring market.

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fender8421@reddit

Also just going to add that flying gliders is fun. It made me a better pilot, but is also just a way to keep the love alive, even if I was the youngest person there by like 50 years.

Something different to stand out on a resume never hurts either

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haveanairforceday@reddit

How much time were you able to build flying gliders? Can you expect several hours of time on a decent weather day?

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fender8421@reddit

Most of my flights were an hour long. Obviously some were a bit shorter. Depending on the club and operation 1-3hours is often possible if you're flying for fun and not instructing.

Always wondered how they got their tow pilots; thought that would be fun

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haveanairforceday@reddit

Did you instruct as well? It seems like a very cost effective way to build some time. I bet their tow pilots are mostly just pilots who are also well known parts of the glider community

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fender8421@reddit

I do not unfortunately, but would be fun.

For note - my old sailplane club didn't charge for instruction. Very much seemed like a passion thing

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haveanairforceday@reddit

Fair warning, Im not an airline guy or a prospective airline guy.

I understand that professional flying is more valuable than recreational flying. But i would think recreational flying is better than no flying? Also, wouldnt more experience make you a more competitive applicant as a CFI?

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Skynet_lives@reddit

So there is a lot of nuance in how you build hours.

I am a hobby pilot (albeit with my CFI) and all my hours have been training, recreational, or charity flying. But I have been offered CFI and turbine 91 jobs that some people would love. Because the people hiring see my experience as valuable.

However just drilling holes in the sky for the sake of grinding hours is pretty universally frowned upon. But not flying at all is certainly the worse thing you can do.

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haveanairforceday@reddit

What is the difference between recreational flying and "drilling holes in the sky"? Would they look at your log book in emough detail to see that you flew a cross country at 85knots when it could have been done at 105?

Seperate question, did your charity flying require owning your own airplane?

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Skynet_lives@reddit

No they see you built 1000hrs in a year going to the same 10 airports. instead of 5-8 years and lots of different places. Not to mention the networking that type of flying gives you.

You don’t have to own the airplane. But you bring the plane and pay for all expenses. It is tax deductible though.

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nightlanding@reddit

The charity flying that does NOT involve bringing an airplane with you is a vanishingly small thing.

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Accomplished_Beat418@reddit

Hard disagree.

Having the necessary prerequisites is key to moving forward. A commercial certificate is always going to be less than an ATP certificate, accompanying a CFI certificate or not. Plenty of people got hired without being a CFI, mainly because they were in the right place, at the right time, with the right experience, and with the right certificate.

If all you can do is fly 250 hours per year because you need to keep a roof over your head, you’re still making forward progress. Flying a desk and flying a plane to have a home to go to at the end of the day is completely viable, just longer in duration. If you wait until the CFI market is good, the person who flies what their wallet can handle will always be one step ahead.

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Flyingredditburner44@reddit

I would agree with you if money was not a factor.

Most people will not be able to afford 250 hours a year, instead by buying flight time they really mean they are spending their life savings or additional loans to do so.

Sprinting to 1500, just to hit a wall because no hiring is going on and also digging yourself further into debt with a less competitive resume isn't it.

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LawManActual@reddit

You are making the assumption they can’t afford the flight time.

You are making the assumption loans and life savings are being used (which is arguable if bad anyway)

It is these assumptions that make your statement true.

Based off the numbers alone, more hours is more better compared to less hours; especially concerning gaining seniority and long term career gains, speaking of airlines in general.

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Flyingredditburner44@reddit

I am making the assumption on the vast majority of people not being able to afford flight time, not an outlier being able to, hence my statement.

Yes more hours the better, more seniority the better. We know that.

Does more hours = better mean I should sell my house to sprint to 1500? Also no.

Nuance.

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LawManActual@reddit

Nuance is in the post you replied to, for reference:

Have you looked at other time building options? Flying or instructing gliders? Grinding out time in an inexpensive aircraft like a small LSA?

Im not a CFI, just curious what your outlook on these kind of things is

Notice, it doesn’t mention selling a house. You are projecting and derailed a rather decent question raised.

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Flyingredditburner44@reddit

I was relying specifically to the grinding out time comment, clearly.

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Specific_Gas4322@reddit

I’m a professional about to get CFI this summer. I will also CFI independent on the side. I might have to look into other ways to build time.

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Historical-Pin1069@reddit

It has been always like this since the past. Many go into other industries when life comes along..

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El_FigaroGold@reddit

My plan is to kind of keep my alrightly paying job and rack hours on the side? Something like that. Idk we'll see. No debt is a nice start to life though so that's nice

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Ready-to-workout@reddit

Is there another career field that seems comparable? It has to show for something on your resume that you went to flight school, right???

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NevadaCFI@reddit

It will become hard to pursue aviation. I have 2300 hours and have paid out of pocket for 1300 of them, but I am semi-retired, not looking for a 121/135 job and enjoy being a CFI. Most people starting out do not have the funds to pay for 1500+ hours.

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StangViper88@reddit

How much did you pay for 1300 hours? Hopefully you purchased your own plane because Jesus.

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HoldinTheBag@reddit

A semi-retired individual suggests he’s older and wealthy. He likely enjoyed it as a hobby or used his plane for business

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StangViper88@reddit

Yeah that’s fine. But the breakeven point to purchase your own airplane is way less than 1300 hours.

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NevadaCFI@reddit

I bought a plane more than 10 years ago and more than 1000 hours are in that plane.

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ltcterry@reddit

This will not be the first time pilots have left the industry never to return. Won’t be the last.

I think there is room for talented instructors to work part time alongside a full time career. They can make real contributions to their community.

CFIs who ultimately never really fly have taken a huge financial hit very early in life. Those who borrowed money are really going to struggle.

An “aviation degree” has little value outside of borrowing at student loan interest rates.

Seth Lake’s video graphically demonstrates what I’ve been preaching for a couple years now. The math doesn’t work for a lot of people.

Maybe the video should be a “watch this first” item in the FAQ. Mandatory viewing for everyone who asks “what do you think of my ‘plan’?”

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CaptainBarkleyBear@reddit

I had a student (finishing high school) asking me about the necessity an aviation degree last year. I was like definitely do not. My degree is in physics which I can do A LOT with if I needed to. You really pigeon hole yourself with an aviation degree if something happens or you decide you can't/don't want to be in it anymore. I believe that student is getting a business degree now. Lame degree but much wiser choice

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ltcterry@reddit

My degree is in physics

Me too.

which I can do A LOT with if I needed to.

Yup :)

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CaptainBarkleyBear@reddit

A fellow science lover!! Where did you do your undergrad??

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SeaMareOcean@reddit

Maybe the video should be a “watch this first” item in the FAQ.

How about posting a link to the video then? I’ve never heard of Seth Lake and googling “Seth Lake’s video” isn’t helpful either.

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ltcterry@reddit

Seth is a frequent contributor here. He’s a DPE. USAF Veteran. If you type his name in YT it’s the first video that pops up.

Here you go: https://youtu.be/yepvhknoGyk?si=sCLPZWoknDlx7UWb

Well worth watching through to the end.

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SeaMareOcean@reddit

Thank you.

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g500cat@reddit

How might the situation be in 5 years?

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ltcterry@reddit

The same or worse. Remind! 5 years

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KehreAzerith@reddit

Nobody knows

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rilessrh@reddit

If I’m currently PPL IR and pursuing my CPL and things looking bleak for me right now? Im 24 with no checkride failures and a 4 year college degree. I don’t have debt because I’ve been working through college and now flight school but maybe I should take out a loan big enough to get through the rest of my training before the numbers get worse?

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ltcterry@reddit

No need to rush.

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yogaballcactus@reddit

Taking out a loan to hurry up and finish so you can jump into a bad job market seems like a bad idea to me. If the market is as competitive as Reddit says it is then a day job that pays enough to keep you flying and current is your superpower. Everyone who took out a big loan has to either get employed right quick or leave the industry. Having a day job is what’s going to help you wait them all out until the market corrects or you’re able to find on of the few jobs that are available.

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Quags_77@reddit

The best route- military aviation and skip the CFI route all together 🤷‍♂️

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Mammut16@reddit

The world will always need teachers.

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Several-Village5814@reddit

And ditch diggers

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scudrunner14@reddit

The more I see and read about how garbage the market is right now the more staying in my trades job and hoping maybe I can keep flying for fun is gonna my option. It’s quite unfortunate and my plan was to go balls to the wall with ratings after getting my private, but seeing the CFIs at my school struggle with getting airline jobs makes me wish I just built a badass sim rig instead of spending 20 grand on a private hoping i would make a career out of this. Sorry for the sob story lmao

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AtrophiedTraining@reddit

Hey at least you only spent 20k and have a trades job! There are people with all their ratings who will never get a big boy aviation job - they are hoping they had got out at 20K instead of 100k.

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scudrunner14@reddit

Yeah I’m definitely being a little dramatic haha. I’m hoping to come back to flight training at some point when the finances allow. I’d be letting myself down if I didn’t get a flying job at some point in my life

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Flyingredditburner44@reddit

Well, the amount of influencers and propaganda will fall off.

Students will drop off, foreign students will still be here though.

Most people will not get into flying past a private level.

It will (already has) become a grind again.

Employers will pay peanuts, and job quality will decrease.

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HoldinTheBag@reddit

This thread was honestly depressing until I got to your post.

If it really makes aviation influencers go away than honestly all the suffering might be worth it

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Flyingredditburner44@reddit

We can only pray.

"A day in the life of a flight instructor!"

They're eating sushi, going for a swim, surfing etc.

More like a day in the life of a rich child.

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AtrophiedTraining@reddit

Perfect bodies and big hair with all the thirsty comments boosting their business. It's stupid how people actually fall for the influencer stuff.

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Needs2GetLaid@reddit

Those cfi's will get jobs at Walmart and McDonald's, and life will go on as usual.

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Throwawayyacc22@reddit

Eh, I know a guy that “walked away” and is now making 200+ and home each night, if youre gonna walk away, just go find a different career that pays well.

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Needs2GetLaid@reddit

Good luck, given the investment in flying can easily hold a guy back from being able to afford re-training in another field.

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Throwawayyacc22@reddit

That’s why you don’t be dumb and take a 10% loan for flight training. Natural selection at that point.

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Needs2GetLaid@reddit

A lot of people could never become a pilot without taking out a loan. Natural selection? More like privileged selection, lol.

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flyingforfun3@reddit

Definitely not true. I worked my way through college. It definitely took me longer but I didn’t have to take out a 10% loan. My max loan was 4.5%… If you do the math, it’s going to hold you in poverty for years to come.

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Throwawayyacc22@reddit

I had no money before training and saved 70 over four years to afford it.

I don’t have a degree or any real privilege, other than being able bodied to work construction for four years, lol.

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Needs2GetLaid@reddit

$70k in four years?! You must've lived in your car eating nothing but peanut butter while washing up at the local Chevron to save that much, lol.

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Throwawayyacc22@reddit

Close, I think I had like 1100 hours of overtime, construction, prevailing wage.

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Needs2GetLaid@reddit

Flying for a living ain't worth that lifestyle.

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Frosty_Piece7098@reddit

Depends on if that grind is worth it to you to have a 30+ year career making doctor money working half the month except for your 5-6 weeks of vacation a year.

Like many others I have my own stories of food stamps and overdue bills, but I can tell you it was all worth it.

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StangViper88@reddit

Problem is, unlike medicine, you aren’t guaranteed to make it to that level as a pilot.

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Throwawayyacc22@reddit

Flying is a means to an end, flying is the reason I did that for a few years, four years of suck to have a shot at flying professionally seems like a good deal coming from a 24yo, no wife, no kids, no mortgage or car payment

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Needs2GetLaid@reddit

Flying was supposed to be a job I wouldn't hate, but when someone else is telling me, how, where, when, and with whom to fly,..it sucks!

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sprulz@reddit

Not necessarily. One guy I know ended up working for his dad’s drywall company. Went to UND and couldn’t get hired anywhere. When I talked to him about it he had some regrets about walking away, but in 2011 he was making exponentially more money than his friends he went to college with.

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Needs2GetLaid@reddit

Well,...it always helps to work at dad's company, lol.

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Bot_Marvin@reddit

The reality is that several thousand people will not be able to find a job, give up, and go do something else like after 01 or 08. It's part of the natural cycle of the industry.

There is a reason why most say that this job is a little more that "just a job". Passion is the only reasonable way to make it through several years of less than fast food level pay.

I do think that those who jumped into the industry with dollar signs in their eyes are getting a rude awakening.

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TRex_N_Truex@reddit

I talked a couple of friends out of trying to pursue pilot as a second career venture when the hiring boom of 2021-22 was happening. I told them it’s expensive and I told them it’s not a career you’re going to enjoy if you weren’t passionate about it. There are a ton of new pilots, fresh CFIs that got into this career without the passion and the next five years will weed them out.

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mfsp2025@reddit

I hate to say it but good. Aviation influencers really saturated our market and there’s a ton of people getting in for the wrong reasons. An oversupply of pilots is NOT a good thing and all it takes is another recession to bring all our wages down.

Supply and demand. It’s that simple. I’m at a regional where our pay isn’t in our contract. I’m sure the thousands of applications they have on file of 2500 hour CFIs willing to fly for free isn’t gonna help our case in keeping our pay the way it is.

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Drunkenaviator@reddit

Aviation influencers really saturated our market and there’s a ton of people getting in for the wrong reasons.

Exactly. Those are the ones that are going to leave to go make money elsewhere when their zero-to-hero for half a mil a year as a DL captain by 27 doesn't pan out for them. And good riddance.

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BullpenCatcher@reddit

Passion and a fuck load of luck and networking.

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weech@reddit

I hate to see it but these people got into the industry for the wrong reason and will be better off doing something else.

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Drunkenaviator@reddit

What happens is all the CFIs that got into the career because they saw shithead influencers telling them they could make $500k/yr by the time they were 25 will go get other jobs. The ones who got into the career because they love flying will stick it out and continue on in their career, slightly delayed from the ideal schedule. Just like the thousands of us that got into aviation in another non-ideal time.

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azbrewcrew@reddit

There will be a plethora of CFIs turned real estate agents or insurance salespeople

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Kemerd@reddit

I had 2 to 3 CFIs when I was training.. 1 main one, 1 secondary and one tertiary, and a few more who were one or two offs

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SSMDive@reddit

My CFI eventually quit and sold insurance. He eventually went back to flying and got a job. I know two other CFI's that got their CFI's and then never flew again.

Not everyone that starts trying to get a PPL gets it - Not everyone that tries to get IFR/CPL/CFI/CFII makes it - And I'd dare say most of the people that start at 0 and want to go to a Major ever make it.

But this is not a massive difference in most things. High School lovers rarely make it to their 50 year anniversary. A very large majority of people who get a college degree don't work in that field.

Some will quit, some will continue, some will medical out, some will get really lucky and fall into a dream job or somehow luck out in timing. I had a buddy went from zero to Delta Captain in like 8 years. That is not likely to happen again in my lifetime.

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kkcfi@reddit

MOSAIC will make things more affordable and should revitalize GA. We should see the market respond. Not all doom n gloom the way I see it.

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Fast-Government-4366@reddit

Mosaic is only going to make it more expensive. More demand for planes, but no increased supply.

And so many people who have serious health issues, that couldn’t hold a medical are able to keep flying.

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Professional_Read413@reddit

I'm hoping once a lot of CFIs and time builders quit plane prices will come down a bit.

When people arent clamoring to buy a beat to shit cherokee for $100k so they can rent it to time builders or build time and resale maybe they sit a little longer before selling and those prices drop

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SeaMareOcean@reddit

I got news for you, as well-intentioned as MOSAIC is, it’s decades too little, too late. People were heralding Sport Pilot tickets and LSA aircraft as the savior of GA before MOSAIC and they barely made a dent. It may slow the bleed overall, but it certainly won’t reverse the death of GA.

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gamefreak32@reddit

Not sure if you are being ironic or haven't actually read what it changed.

The only real difference for pilots is the handful of sport pilots can fly 4 seat aircraft, but they still can only carry one passenger.

Certification hasn't been implemented fully yet, but it is unlikely to change anything because aircraft certified under CAR3 or Part 23 aren't going to be magically cheaper. The planes that are going to be for sale after the final rule passes aren't going to be cheap either - they are just modifications of existing LSAs that are already certified. Those modifications add more cost to the LSA not less, and the base price new LSA (>$300k) is still very much unattainable for the average person.

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kkcfi@reddit

Give it time and see what gives. The archaic medical rules are keeping a lot of people who'd otherwise want to fly. There should be a definitive uptick. As far as the costs go, flying has and will remain an expensive thing to do. Nothing will change there. Separate topics though.

As far as the aviation career market goes, the whole system is exploiting instructors. Schools and owners end up making money on the backs of instructors. That is a) not fair and b) very difficult to change.

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gamefreak32@reddit

Half of the disqualifying medical conditions that keep people from getting a medical should keep you from getting a drivers license also.

Angina pectoris Bipolar disease Cardiac valve replacement Coronary heart disease that has been treated or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant Diabetes mellitus requiring hypoglycemic medications Disturbance of consciousness without satisfactory explanation of cause Epilepsy Heart replacement Myocardial infarction Permanent cardiac pacemaker Personality disorder that is severe enough to have repeatedly manifested itself by overt acts Psychosis Substance abuse Substance dependence Transient loss of control of nervous system function(s) without satisfactory explanation of cause.

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kkcfi@reddit

I have said everything I need to on this subject and choose to maintain a positive outlook. YMMV!

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Otherwise-Pen70@reddit

Yeah then drop out then. The career has never been easy to get and extremely competitive. Companies that pay those airline pilot wages are very picky. Remember, its not the best pilots that get picked by the airlines; it's the lucky ones. The ones that keep pushing, keep updating their flying hours and certificates. But hey, if it scares you then get out and give the rest of the ones who really want to be airline pilots better odds of being selected

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Fast-Government-4366@reddit

A lot of people will stop trying to get a job in aviation

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Proper_Energy5664@reddit

Honestly, you can just drive over the road truck right now and make about 70 to 120k a year

I would get my CDL and do that until I build some time

To be honest, you either have to come from a lot of money, or are willing to take on a ton of debt, or willing to work a job for half a decade while you put every spare dollar you have to fly

This industry has always been hard to get into in the last five years were a bubble. It’s now getting back to how things usually are. Pretty soon. It will be like the 90s one you need 4000 two 5000 hours of dual given to get to a regional

The regional pay will remain where it’s at as the cost of living and inflation continues to rise. Then they will be short of pilots in the cycle starts all over again. Welcome to the show.

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nightlanding@reddit

The same thing that happened the last 10 times the "pilot shortage" got everyone doing instant pilot courses. If you are old enough, you will realize pilots outnumbering jobs by 10:1 or 100:1 is more the norm than the exception.

When I was a full-time CFI a recently separated Navy pilot with carrier jet time and all his civilian ratings came in looking for CFI work and I felt bad saying part time fuel truck driver was the best we could offer.

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bentstrider83@reddit

Work on the aircraft instead. I mean these things need more maintenance per each flight hour. I'd just as well jump on that.

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Swimming-Ad2568@reddit

Just like any other industry. If people can’t find jobs, they’ll leave, especially those with family counting on them to provide. This is exactly why it’s idiotic that people take loans to be a pilot.

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Euphoric-Visual-6357@reddit

The market corrects itself and the sudden influx of “be a pilot and make millions!” ads die down and hopefully a bunch of the newly popped up Univeristy programs and “pathway” partnerships die

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Lanky-Rabbit8694@reddit

Bought two newish cars from two different salesmen both were pilots before 2001. You find an another job and life happens and you don’t go back. That’s kinda how it goes. There isn’t even a ton of furloughing going on so this is really child’s play compared to then. I got my Mel back then from a furloughed United pilot of that tells you anything about where the industry was vs now.

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PilotBurner44@reddit

Just like airline hiring, it is cyclical, and it is self correcting. If everything continues without any change, yes, you get to the point where CFI's outnumber students, but the thing is, the current trend does not stay the same, it changes.

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ExpensiveCategory854@reddit

You mean the retirement gig I’ve wanted to do won’t be available due to over saturation?

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Several-Village5814@reddit

People will quit and leave aviation.

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KW1908@reddit

Kinda like how I have, though this is probably 25% the reason why I did

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skydiveguy@reddit

Ill have the pick of the litter for my IFR training.

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slimjim9364@reddit

Same thing that happened in the 90s and 2000s.

People can’t pay bills and leave the industry as they’re unable to pay off the massive debt (it’ll be worse this time because the price gouging has been ridiculous). They’ll go find other careers because this one simply won’t be available.

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bootyhole_licker69@reddit

market will just correct, lots of cfis will bail to other careers or never even start instructing once they see the pay and hours. schools will cherry pick the best and the rest will scramble. honestly not shocking with how hard it is to find any decent job now

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run264fun@reddit

Airlines and part 135 & 91 operators will cherry pick the rest as well. College degree, MBA, and 0 Checkride failures will be the minimum in 10 years

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maverickps1@reddit

Why is MBA relevant?

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Hauneul@reddit

It’s not directly relevant, he’s saying they’ll only take applicants that are extremely (maybe over)qualified

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FlyingPetRock@reddit

MBA. Over qualified. Choose one. /S

Sorry just have a general low level distrust of MBA's since so many see themselves as the next Jack Welch. 🤣

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willflyforboatmoney@reddit

As an MBA, I approve this message.

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Hauneul@reddit

No arguments from me there

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Dingletonius@reddit

I’m genuinely curious what percentage of unemployed CFIs are actively looking for jobs. All of my friends have given up and I feel like an anomaly to still be trying.

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KehreAzerith@reddit

There are more planes flying in the sky than ever, yes it's oversaturated for now but eventually things will move. Unfortunately you'll have to wait this cycle out

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Flaky_Summer_9800@reddit

It depends. If we keep produce CFIs and commercial applications at record levels, it will never catch up. I don’t care how many planes the airlines order, or if Boeing ever gets there act together, it just won’t matter if we keep making so many pilots. There are simply far too many people in this right now. There isn’t going to be a flying job for everyone.

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BigBadPanda@reddit

Ask Helo CFIs.

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Cdraw51@reddit

They most likely leave the industry to pursue other career options either permanently or temporarily.

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redditburner_5000@reddit

The ones who really love flying will find ways to stay involved, either through part time work or pure grit and full time effort. They'll be marketable when the time comes. The ones who don't will go chase money in a new direction and will miss their shot when it comes around.

Balance will once again be restored and all will be right with aviation.

And then we'll do it all again.

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BrianBash@reddit

Apply for cadet programs, live in squaller and wait tables. The only way I was able to start a flight school was by living with my parents. I still do.

One of my old CFI’s (super laid back, 25k+ hrs) laughs at this stuff. It wasn’t uncommon to have 13 CFI’s sitting in a school waiting for students.

Anyone remember Comair? Have we reached the point of paying for your own type rating yet?

It’s not great, industry is goes through cycles. A good amount of people will give up. Those only career hunting will be greatly disappointed.

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Fr3nch_Toa5t_@reddit

Something something 10 year cycle

It’s always been a pyramid scheme mixed with a game of musical chairs

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InJailForCrimes@reddit

Folks really need some perspective. Aviation isn’t going away. However somebody has to make a living is their business. If aviation is what you want to do, there’s opportunities out there,

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captaincrj@reddit

Wages fall and we have the early 2000s again

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SlamNGo@reddit

Time to look overseas for pilot jobs, I am at the higher end of hours as a CFI and it doesn’t get better down the road 😫

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Throwawayyacc22@reddit

Make a post in here if you find anything, I hear getting the right to work and conversions are the hard part.

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Additional_Duck974@reddit

Target new and naive demographics to train more pilots to continue the pyramid. That’s how you keep it going. Straight from the multilevel marketing playbook. Show off how much money you make on social media and how cool it is to be a pilot to draw more people in. As long as those people are below you it’s fine. /s

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Throwawayyacc22@reddit

Why the /s?

That’s literally the playbook of some big schools with a large marketing budget, you know the one.

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VanDenBroeck@reddit

They will need to find other flying jobs or even non aviation jobs. Just a fact.

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CarminSanDiego@reddit

Just join a reserve or guard flying unit ?

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Accomplished_Beat418@reddit

Army Reserve Aviation is gone. 6k pilots either exited the military, transferred units, or branch transferred into the Guard.

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sprulz@reddit

When the airlines stop hiring the Reserves/ANG get insanely competitive (even more than they already are) because everyone has the same idea. Units are also very good at sniffing out who’s actually in it for the mission and who’s in it just because they didn’t have any other options.

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haveanairforceday@reddit

The timeline on that is like 2+ years from when you apply (which might only be possible once or twice a year) to when you start building meaningful time in your airframe. Assuming you get selected. Most will see that 2 years as long enough that they could have found a CFI/survey/whatever gig in the mean time, particularly if they are willing to relocate which you will have to do multiple times during the military pipeline.

Not to mention many people are hesitant to sign up for likely flying in combat

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Academic_Guest_9246@reddit

Easier said than done

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otherwisepandemonium@reddit

Hopefully one day I'll be able to afford to continue my passion and hire one to teach me. I'm priced out of the greatest aspect of my life these days, midway to CPL.

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Ill_Rush9159@reddit

Those with the CFI jobs at the moment will soon live like kings moving on to the jet jobs.

Those in waiting will take our jobs. Problem is the CFI certificate number is only going to keep rising with no end in sight. It will be 20-30,000 candidates competing for all the instructing jobs. News flash, there isn’t 20-30,000 CFI jobs available

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sprulz@reddit

I’ve met a lot of folks who came up around 2008 and ended up not pursuing aviation all said and done.

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kytulu@reddit

We just lost two CFIs, with another leaving in a couple weeks to go to the airlines. We had over 200 applications for 3 positions.

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bigplaneboeing737@reddit

If you are not in a Cadet Program, you are screwed if airlines are your intention anytime soon.

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SnorkyB@reddit

The career CFI who I used to work with will continue to steal, or try to steal, all of the students from the younger CFIs.

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caelum52@reddit (OP)

Dang, that’s kind of messed up

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No-Cell-8208@reddit

Exactly what happens every time this cycle occurs. Many will leave for other careers entirely.

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brongchong@reddit

It will be like 1992. No big deal. Keep grinding.

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run264fun@reddit

A friend of mine got into aviation 20 years ago. He knew it was going to suck and there was no “pilot shortage.”

Getting in a jet was impossible and you needed serious connections from the inside just to fly a turboprop. Whether it was part 91, 135 or regional.

He didn’t have any, but knew exactly how hard getting into aviation was. His competition had MBAs and he only had a bachelor’s degree.

Ended up quitting aviation all together. Probably had 1,800tt and maybe 400 multi doing survey work.

The hammer is about to drop.

$150,000 in student loans with a college degree is a hard pill to swallow. $150k for 7 ratings and a low time CFI on the other side is criminal

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CFI original issuances will continue to increase yet the number of student pilots is actually going down. It’s basically going to be a reverse pyramid.

What’s gonna happen when you have 2 to 3 CFI’s per actively training student

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