Never hated myself more than after moving to Germany

Posted by Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 152 comments

To start off I want to acknowledge I'm just venting here mostly, because at this point I don't really have anyone to tell who would have anything helpful to say.

I moved to Germany when I was 20 from SA (exactly a year ago now), a very bright and beautiful country, known for having a rather friendly and open culture. Unfortunately I'm from a pretty messed up Southeast Asian family, and after studying Law for a year (forced to by my mom), being an unpaid house cleaner and cook at home while also being verbally insulted for one thing or another almost everyday, with no sense of freedom at all (was barely allowed to go out and wasn't allowed to get a job by my dad) I said screw it all. I saved up and moved here through a programme.. which went terribly of course, because I was stupid enough to think I would be able to manage freshly out of a toxic environment.

so I unfortunately left + was removed from the programme and was then homeless for a good 5 months despite having a perfectly valid visa and all my documents to do something else, purely because, and I'm assuming, discrimination? I lived with my boyfriend and his ALSO extremely emotionally abusive parents which was great because I was getting kicked out every other day just for saying Hello or using the toilet, even though I was paying to stay there by selling all my belongings.

After 5 months of that I finally was registered my residence permit by an angel at the rathaus in my city because he saw I was being unfairly dismissed despite having every available document. I started working in an FSJ in pflege, which was exciting because I figured Id actually thrive there with my passion to help and care for people.

oh well. not really. it's been pretty rough. I've been here a good 5 months now too (I believe) and I've been bullied by a group of much older people ever since. a 60 year old guy, a 20 year old girl and some 35 year old woman (plus another lady 40+). whether it was over how my German wasn't good enough (I understand that, however my first month there, how could it be good? I just started learning ), they'd make up lies about me not dojng tasks that I absolutely did do, laugh at me when I'm around and whisper things, slam the door in my face and I was told once to leave if it's not good enough here for me. the last awful incident was when I had an accident on the way to work and fell directly on my head multiple times, I was unable to sleep properly for 2-3 days because of the headache I got , and amazingly I got an infection in those days too. it was pure hell. however when I returned to work they all cornered me and said they don't believe me and feel like I lied about it all, that if Im sick or hurt I should continue walking to work no matter what. I cried so hard that day.

a week later I reported it to my boss, because I honestly felt like I couldn't work there anymore after how I felt.

I acknowledged I might come off lazy sometimes. I apologised. I said I won't do it again. however their comments never stopped.

I moved work stations a month ago now, and I work with a completely different group, however yesterday a coworker from their station told me she spoke to them and they would make fun of me almost everyday since then. saying things like "how can someone so fat and ugly have a boyfriend?" , make detailed comments on my body and how I carry myself. That it's a shock someone like me could ever be loved.

I felt such a pit in my stomach since then that I can't get out of bed. I've already dealt with relentless bullying from my family, in highschool etc. from my boyfriends own parents. I've had multiple cases in public where I've been called slurs or looked at with disgust. I'm always ignored in groups of Germans. recently I went to a programme with other FSJlers and we played a quiz game, despite calling out MULTIPLE correct answers to my group (in German of course) they ignored me. every single time.

I feel like an absolute nobody. I already deal with pretty severe self hatred. I know that that's my fault, and it's something I've wanted to work on and erase because I've finally left the source of it (my family), however, coming here proved I'm gonna face it now everyday and even worse. just yesterday a patient ranted to me about how 'disgraceful' foreigners are and I'm lucky my coworkers are nice to me.

how do you live through that and not just think of yourself as utter trash ?

I felt my confidence genuinely spike really high recently, I started expressing myself again and wearing cute things I like. then this stuff happens and I remember my 'place', that I really don't deserve to be happy and that it might actually be that most people find be vile, disgusting, a waste of space here..

I've always been so fascinated and interested in Germany. learning the language has been difficult, but fun, I love the progressive culture and the how the arts are so available here. how alternative views and lifestyles aren't so ostracized.

however it hasn't take me long to see I'm not part of that. I can't afford to be myself and be a person of colour / foreigner. I feel ashamed of myself sometimes just going out in public in my body and skin.

I know it's not gonna change, so all I can do is let it out.

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Old-Bandicoot-5272@reddit

You’re being really naive and why are you going to Berghain if you’re struggling especially as an expat? Why are you linking your Instagram to reddit? I don’t know if you want help or are just looking to vent. The latter I feel is the case and I don’t think I or anyone has anything to help you. You’re just going to have to live life and figure things out.

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

Why on earth would I not deserve to have fun or link my socials if I am struggling with discrimination/racism in another country, I don't see the correlation. I'm not gonna back down from life completely because of what I'm going through. I never said I'm going to just crawl into a room and rot away, I'm still determined to experience stuff

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Potential-Table-8913@reddit

I’m so sorry you’re facing such terrible circumstances. It sucks to think you made a decision for the best only to land in similar situations. I think taking small steps to change a day may help.

At first it will feel like nothing but please be patient. The snowball effect is what you’d potentially be going for here. Start really small.

Figure out how to tune off anything hurtful that anyone says. For example, I start thinking about something completely different as soon as some people start talking. I figured they never have anything nice to say so I completely tune them off and blankly stare at them as they speak. I would try this on your bf parents & co-workers(just careful not to tune work related stuff off of course).

Also, allow yourself a slot of time to vent/cry/complain about it all but after that slot of time. Pick yourself up and go do something productive to making your life bearable eg. finding another job. Slow quitting will really help you have something to look forward to. Just imagine not working in such a toxic environment anymore. It will also keep you motivated if you are open to it.

Also, just make a point to make anyone who makes you uncomfortable experience the same. If someone is rude, say “ that’s an awfully rude thing to say to someone..!” It helps to get it out of your system and most people aren’t prepared to be called out directly. Being nice is doing you a de-service. Push back a little bit and draw boundaries with everyone.

Being “fat &/ ugly” is subjective. Don’t listen to remarks of people you wouldn’t normally take advice from (heck, don’t listen to anyone but those with nice things to say 😉) some people are miserable and just feel the need to spread their misery around.

Start meeting your problems at the door. Don’t let them come in and take up residence in your life. Go outside and be alone more. Walk ALOT ( it helps clear your head and is great exercise). You’ll come across other people that may not be so toxic & even friendly.

Just don’t stop fighting for yourself. You only loose when you stop fighting. It sucks to have sooo much to deal with and it’s not fair at all. That said, it’s the cards you’ve been dealt with at the moment & only you can decide which direction your life will go.

You’ve already done a remarkably brave thing by picking up your life and moving to a whole new continent. Don’t let anyone minimise your win. Sum up the same courage and start figuring out the rest of your life. The hardest part was taking the leap. Settling down takes time but you’ll get there. Keep the faith.

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Pure_Composer_9236@reddit

Yeah Germany is such a big scam it is amazing people still fall into it

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yellowbat30@reddit

Financially, it's not a scam at all. But you do quickly learn that nothing is free after all.

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Bellanzz@reddit

The big advantage of German economy IMHO is that it has (had) a big job market. But similar job conditions, in many cases, can be found in neighbouring EU countries.

But now that German economy is not steaming anymore(and, proportionally, anti-immigration/racism sentiment is increasing), even this is questionable.

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yellowbat30@reddit

Many of the modern immigrants come for the free education. And then the salary is similar to the rest of western europe while the living expense is considerably lower.

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Bellanzz@reddit

I think the problem is Germany has a bit of white knight complex even at the international level. Showing itself as having a morally superior, always right culture, and often pointing out others' defects. While in reality it is not so perfect and under certain aspects even backward and conservative.

If you come from a culture where this is not common, it is easy to fall from it.

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miseryglittery@reddit

It is what you make out of it

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Eastern_Ideal_5854@reddit

I swear to God if you don’t toughen up and make it, I’m coming there to defend you, I’m not far. What part of Germany? I hate the type of people you discribed I felt burning rage reading. There are many people, find YOUR people outside of work cause at work you can’t change them they’re lost and fucked up. Dump your lame ass boyfriend that is not even defending you against his parents and find different people and believe me only this can recharge your self esteem battery 🔋. Pls don’t give up and believe me things can change even in a month, make different choices and only for yourself, don’t please others and remove yourself from situations that allow people to mistreat you. Simply stop participating or eat they faces in your native language slurs cause they do that in german to you apparently. I am waiting for an update, do better, stop venting and start living and that’s on you cause they’re doomed stupid people that cannot do bettere and you’re not like them. Let them continue fueling your rage but channel it towards something else, not yourself, you should feel like you are worth it despite what others think, and the fact that you wrote this proves you know you worth more than the way they treat you

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Quiet-Constant-803@reddit

Work in tourism? You’ll meet various people and your English skills will be of good use. I visited Germany and had people ramming into me in Berlin. In France, some dudes were being rude but I ignored it. I am obviously American and not from Europe. There is something inherently messed up socially when it comes to humans in general so it’s not just you. Some people want to feel superior because they are small people who have nothing going for them. Brush it off. Don’t let their insecurities affect you because what they’re saying/doing shows how weak they truly are. You studied law? You’re obviously intelligent so learn a new skill. Join expat groups. Don’t just rely on your boyfriend for companionship. You can get out of this slump. You’re young enough to start over. Don’t waste your time worrying about what other people think of you. It took guts to make the move to Germany from SA and it took guts not to run home immediately when you became homeless. You’re enough as you are. You just have to believe it.

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LavaLampLogic@reddit

What is keeping you in Germany? It doesn’t sound like you’re very happy there?

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

Well I can't go home because I left my family for a reason, and either way I'd be humiliated for life for not being able to make it on my own after only a year. I also earn like 400 a month, my boyfriend makes a lot but I'm not gonna mess up his life further by asking him to use his money towards moving to another country. I've kind of just accepted I'm gonna have to stay here at least for another 4 years

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MysAlgernon@reddit

Why not move to a different city?

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Professional_Ad_6462@reddit

There is always more to the story for sure. But this your here for a week you should be speaking near native fluency of German, Dutch, Spanish was not near as prevalent before the new European nationalism-tribalism.

I assure you many of the German Engineers I worked with in Silicon valley in the early 2000’s did not have anywhere near native fluency and say what you will about the U.S. no one gave them shit about it.

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lnxkwab@reddit

I assure you many of the German Engineers I worked with in Silicon valley in the early 2000’s did not have anywhere near native fluency and say what you will about the U.S. no one gave them shit about it.

Lmao terrible, tone-deaf comparison.

American culture inherently worships European identity, that’s why. Compare the general acceptance of those German engineers to the acceptance toward H1B Visa engineers(especially tech ones, since you’re in the SV space), or even less favorably looked-upon places like South America, Africa, or countries we had been told to hate like China or Russia.

OP’s bad luck does seem a bit prolific to an extent that leads one to have questions, but pointing to abject favor experienced by a completely different privileged group isn’t the way.

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molotavcocktail@reddit

H1 b discrimination has zero to do w ethnicity and everything to with unfair labor practices by tech and USGOV.......now, no longer just tech. I have reason to know.

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lnxkwab@reddit

What I’m saying is that there absolutely exists negative sentiment amongst a subgroup of employees against the nationalities/ethnicities/“colors” colloquially associated with H1B.

I work in tech. I’ve absolutely heard “these Indians are taking over huh? This is getting out of control” and such.

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molotavcocktail@reddit

Its transactional......if the labor was not imbalanced there wd be no grievance. Also, the scales are super tipped by India now. No disputing that.

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lnxkwab@reddit

Is that the Indians’ fault or the company owners shilling off to the cheapest labor? Come on now. If not them, it’d be some other relatively poor country which also happens to have good technological infrastructure.

If there’s one good society-level impact of AI, it’s that it doesn’t present a “other”-ed group for people to scapegoat as the root cause as to why jobs are being erased.

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molotavcocktail@reddit

We are in agreement

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yoshimipinkrobot@reddit

Silicon Valley is the most asian place in the US

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lnxkwab@reddit

Are we going to take it there that “model minority” and “vicinity to whiteness” a well-documented phenomenon? I’m not here to criticize cultures, but I’m just saying that comparing Germans in America to Africans in Germany is a poor judgement.

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MostlyBrine@reddit

You are talking here about Silicon Valley. That is in the most “racist” country in the world, where everyone has an accent of some sort, and almost nobody cares. Half of the engineers in Silicon Valley are born outside USA. It is not the same environment as a factory worker in Germany. You can speak Klingon in Silicon Valley and everyone will find you cool. Even the rednecks in Alabama are more open minded than the average factory worker in Germany.

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Ill-Apartment3656@reddit

Wait wait wait …… this is Not true ! We Are Not the Most racist Country …. It may depend on where you live !!!! And what people You have around You …. Normal Germans Like me and Most other people Are Not racist at all ! I work together with people from the entire world ! How dumb would it be beeing racist !!

She Met a bunch of Idiots that’s what happened !

But complaining will Not make it better !

First why do you have only 400 Euros ? That does Not Sound correct to me because you Are all alone ! Do You have a „Arbeitserlaubnis“ ? What about learning a real job ! ? There Are so many people needed in „Pflege“ why Not learning it the Right way …. For instance Nurse ?

You can go to Arbeitsamt and they can help you in finding a „Ausbildungsplatz“

In Which city do you live ? Maybe I can help You !

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Liittlefoott2@reddit

Damn I had no idea Germany was so gross

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ggalassi86@reddit

I lost a job as a hotel's Bar Manager in Spain because german tourists were complaining about me not speaking german IN SPAIN, when they didn't even speak english. I speak 3 languages btw.

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

Yeah it's pretty brutal. I think it was yesterday when a patient came up to me and said it's good I speak German because foreigners are 'disgraceful' to be around these days. I think the pressure to be fluent in such a short time is a bit. Unfair. There's a guy who works with me from the UK, he's been here 30 years and doesn't even speak that well...

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ConstanceL1805@reddit

Yeah, I think a lot of people don’t really realise how difficult it is to learn a whole new language, especially when they’ve never had to do it themselves. On top of that, many immigrants in Germany simply can’t afford to study German full-time, and even if they do and pass a B2 exam (which is often the requirement for many jobs) before they start working, they’re still not necessarily fluent in everyday life, it doesn’t mean they’re not working incredibly hard.

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Professional_Ad_6462@reddit

Yes I have worked all over Europe. Born in Denmark decades ago. Grew up In the U.S. worked in Europe since 95. I speak German, Danish, and passable Portuguese. This language requirement on exiting the jet bridge is an intolerant newer development.

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ow191@reddit

The more we think about german language, the more we realize Germany and german language have a strategic disadvantage, compared to English, French (at least also in Africa), Spanish/Portugese (whole South America), or Chinese (rapid economic development).

Worse, people in Austria and Switzerland don't speak German (in Germany) dialekt.

Learning German is like learning Thailandais. Unless you have absolutely something to do with it (like refugees, or whole familiy in Germany), it's not worth learning. Fun fact: even refugees want to go to UK instead (if given a chance), thanks to English language.

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

I'm planning on doing that in a few months, but you've gotta understand it takes a lot of money, time and effort. My boyfriend is also gonna have to give up his life and his little brother who is being neglected by his parents so it's a whole thing. However, yes that's been the plan. I'll just be moving back to Berlin where I was in the beginning

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nonula@reddit

Big hugs, friend. I’m not sure you asked for this kind of advice, but honestly? I’m afraid you’ve connected bf’s toxic parents with your own family origins, and now trapped yourself with them as much as you were trapped back in SA. Have you looked for a job in Berlin yet? The best thing for your mental health would be to get yourself a job in Berlin, move there sans boyfriend (let him figure his own stuff out), and find a Berlin-based therapist who will help you listen to that still, small voice inside that is telling you to respect yourself.

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

Thank you. It means a lot. It's extremely possible yes, our families have a ton of overlap, probably why we have such a strong bond.. I have already started to look, I will do my vocational training there (ausbuildung) so not work in the conventional sense, but yes. I'm confident after getting my language certificate and writing up a nice resume I'll get one soon. My boyfriend also suggested I study again and he just works. I have to think over it.. However, yes, I already will be calling some therapists in my immediate area this afternoon. I know it's the right thing to do and I hope I can be mentally fit enough soon again.

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SampsonRustic@reddit

Ditch bf and move to a more friendly city. It’s hard but you’ll be glad you did.

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proof_required@reddit

Have you looked for a job in Berlin yet?

If OP is going to work in Pflege, Berlin isn't going to be a big change either. I have heard similar stories about workplace mobbing and racism in Berlin.

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Vladimir_Putting@reddit

You're 20.

No one is going to give a fuck about you moving back from Germany. People will ask you about it, you will answer and then life will move on. 20 year olds move to exciting places where it doesn't work out all the time.

It's not "humiliated for life". Not even close.

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suazithustra@reddit

you would be right if her family were so wise, they are clearly not

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Vladimir_Putting@reddit

When you are an adult you have to start making decisions that are in your best interest. If your family is actively harming you or stopping you from growing and being healthy then you seriously have to consider how much of a role they will have in your life.

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theytookallthecash@reddit

Repeat after me: A Man Is Not A Plan

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supervanilla@reddit

First of all I truly hope this all goes away eventually. As someone that has immense difficulty as a trailing spouse making new connections, I feel so much for you.

Can you try searching for new jobs at least? You don't have to occupied spaces you are not appreciated.

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Livid_Importance_453@reddit

You do not have to solve the next 4 years tonight. If the current job is crushing you, the first move is usually a better city or a different employer, not some grand life decision. Even a small change in rent, commute, or workplace can make the whole country feel less hostile. And if you’re stuck on the money side, running a borderpilot search for relocation options might at least show what’s actually realistic.

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yomamastears@reddit

Where in South Africa did you move from exactly? As a woman who also took a deal of acclimatisation in Northern Europe, admittedly in less drastic surrounds. Don’t underestimate the values and views you hold that are shared. This sounds largely circumstantial. You’ll work it out, liefie. Don’t undervalue yourself at any point. Don’t ever feel ashamed of your colour. It’s far more established than you realise. Get better people around you. The rest of us support you and are better off with you here. Give yourself grace and latitude and remember why you chose to study there.

That’s the Europe we all feel proud for.

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Old-Tradition392@reddit

It sounds like wherever you're going, you're experiencing bullying. What is the common factor there tho?

I know it sounds harsh, but some people seem to ATTRACT bullies and toxic people. I know that sounds like blaming, but it isn't meant that way. What I'm saying is sometimes when we're traumatized and abused- we somehow keep attracting it and "seeking" it unintentionally.

I would urge you to see how you can get some therapy, find yourself some new friends, maybe some other language learners or people with common hobbies or interests who are nice. Communities that tend to be very inclusive and welcoming- artistic/craft communities, language clubs, LGBT organizations, Toastmasters, Improv, theater, and many more. Find clubs that value humans and be picky about who you allow to enjoy your company. They will build you up and find your value, sometimes even if you are bad at finding it yourself.

Keep working on recognizing that you're a valuable and lovable person who doesn't deserve abuse- while learning not to feel and behave as a victim. We're all victims at one time or another, and trauma can make us feel like we always will be. Unfortunately THAT is the exact mindset that attracts bullies like a predator going after a wounded gazelle on the open plains. They sense vulnerability and attack.

There is no perfect system but if you improve your self esteem, your confidence, and your self reliance- these jerks will lose their power over you. Those things are like a shield against the world and also attract people who are kind and want the same things as you.

Best wishes, you've got this!

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

That's a great point and I am honestly aware of that to a point, but I'm sure you understand that at many points you forget not to keep going on autopilot and revert to your usual anxious, vulnerable self. I struggle with really bad anxiety and sometimes stumble on my words in conversations, unless I'm talking to someone I love and trust like my partner or my friends. I have thankfully managed to make 2-3 friends and many acquaintences here, but Im yet to meet someone with the same struggles, I would love to and definitely wanna seek that out soon. I am looking into therapy atm but finding one that speaks fluent English as well is the hard part, which I understand because I'm in a very niche area in NRW so why would there be any lol. Thank you and I appreciate your advice and perspectives!

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Old-Tradition392@reddit

I would recommend to ask around in expat groups on FB, and consider doing therapy remotely.

I totally understand how easy it is to revert to anxiety and nervous behavior. Things like social clubs or interest groups help with giving you a safer place where you can be yourself and people won't judge you for stumbling on your words or whatever.

Confidence is a learned skill just like any other. The more you do it, the easier it gets and the more natural it is and doesn't take so much energy. I promise you can get there!

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Strict-Armadillo-199@reddit

I'm so sorry for the situation you're in. I can empathize with certain aspects of it. I've lived in Germany for 24 years and experienced bullying at the workplace my first year, and in my partner's friend group the following years. On top of that, the general culture here left me feeling insecure (so often getting shamed in public for breaking some rule, or just existing in the same space as a boomer with a lot of anger issues) had me feeling just like I did on my abusive family growing up. I'm a survivor and I kept on trying to survive through it all, but I ended up having a massive psychological breakdown and spending the next 10 years seriously I'll and in and out of psychiatric care. Where I also had some bullying therapists (but also some good ones, I must admit).

I think there aren't necessarily more bullies and people with repressed trauma in Germany, I think that it's just more socially acceptable to lash out at people here, and then pile on blaming the victim if they complain. That's my main criticism with German culture, as someone whose gone on from their struggles to seek a second career in mental health.

The real place I found healing from my abusive childhood is https://adultchildren.org/. Check out the Laundry Lists and the other basic literature on the website, then attend a few online meetings. There is an established community and numerous meetings in South Africa if you prefer. I attend international European meetings and ones based in the US. It's helped me more than years of therapy did, and it's given me the strength to deal with life in Germany better. I still might leave, but I don't hate my life here as much in the meantime.

Wishing you healing.

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ZazaQada@reddit

This is a WONDERFUL and KING response!

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Scary-Net4413@reddit

Second the recommendation of ACoA

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cryingingerman@reddit

Hi OP,
I'm sorry you're going through this. Germany is a tough culture, and unfortunately, there is a lot of bullying here, even in professional environments. It's so common that it's referred to as "mobbing" in clinical language, so you'll also be able to find a lot of support to deal with it.

In your situation, the first thing is to go to your Hausarzt (GP) and get a referral for therapy, and maybe some time off, if possible. It's also important that you don't lose whatever financial independence you do have. If you don't want to go through the regular process of getting therapy, I'd recommend calling a hotline, either one that is specialized for women (Frauenberatungsstelle) or one for racism/discrimination. They will be able to help you, or at least make a plan together with you on how to move forward.

Yes, it's difficult in Germany as a foreigner. But don't let that stop you from building a safe and meaningful life here. It is possible, and support exists. Don't let them chase you out. You deserve to be here as much as anyone else.

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ow191@reddit

Speaking german as a foreigner in Germany is like begging for mercy. This issue always comes up in Performance Review in the workplace. If Germany were in their primetime (like the last 30 years, before 2019 Covid), then one may suppress the negative downside. But with a possible large scale deindustrialiazaion probably coming to Germany, foreigners must think 10x before settling down and learning the language. It's all about "Is it worth it in the long run (20-30 years)?".

Despite having much better living conditions than, say, Somalia, Germany has a clear potential danger: people here are used to living the way they lived in the last 40 years (when Germany was at their prime). But in light of competition with USA and China, Germany is undoubtedly losing its steam. Consequence? People here will not accept losing the glory past, but the wealth is no longer there, so the radicalization will be the consequence: they 'blame', from parties (CDU/CSU..), to "Ausländer", to even USA (caused Iran war).

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ZazaQada@reddit

Wow! This is the kindest and most helpful response to OP that I’ve seen on this thread so far. ☺️ If only the rest of Redditors had this kind of attitude. Redditor culture is truly toxic, often picking people apart and kicking them while they’re down, all while lobbing smatterings of advice that do everything but address what the person is requesting. It’s a really crotchety bunch, so thank you!

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wytnesschancealt@reddit

It's so common that it's referred to as "mobbing" in clinical language

This is a bit of an odd sentence. "Mobbing" is just the German word for bullying, which is.. common and thus has a word in the English language.

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cryingingerman@reddit

Let me clarify further. When you search for therapists, it often comes up as a topical specialization. And that's not the case in other countries.

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wytnesschancealt@reddit

Do you seriously imply that bullying isn't a common occurrence in other countries?

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CuriousLands@reddit

It could happen. I've never been to Germany, but I've worked a lot of jobs in Canada and only faced similar issues twice, and even then it was 1 or 2 select people, not virtually everyone at work like OP is describing. Maybe that's where the "mobbing" distinction comes in? What OP is describing is something I've never experienced in either Canada or Australia.

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cryingingerman@reddit

It's high school mean girl behavior. I've worked in South Asia, where there's a lot of nepotism, but this group bullying doesn't happen.

In Germany, there's usually one person, like in Admin or HR usually, searching for some kind of conflict. If you are their target, they all come after you. I had 2-3 women at two different jobs here who did this.

And I've heard stories also from people born here, like a friend who's a single mother who was bullied by the women in her town, and another who sued her employer and then won her case, and obviously you read other stories about it.

The thing is often cultures have these dark aspects and people obviously don't like if you point it out, or they have never thought about it. But you can go to the German sub Arbeitsleben and will find many stories in German about this. So it's not something that only immigrants experience.

Anyway, before I get attacked more for saying this, I'm out. I just have a morbid interest in this topic, so I participated in this thread.

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CuriousLands@reddit

That's funny cos I just replied to the other person that the only time I can think of experiencing this type of bullying was in school, specifically grades 6 and 9. And in grade 9 particularly, it was a group of mean girls (grade 6 was a mixed gender group). But I think it's just much less socially acceptable behaviour in Canada, so by the time you're done junior high, you're a lot more likely to have seen the last of that dynamic (even in high school it's much less common), but bullying by 1 or 2 people still happens.

Like what you described here is something I've never heard of happening in Canada or Australia - not to say we don't have our own issues, like you said each place has negative aspects, but having like your whole workplace or all your neighbours come at you is pretty much unheard of. It's the nature and dynamic of the bullying that sounds different, not the overall incidence of bullying in general necessarily.

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wytnesschancealt@reddit

I'm not sure why I'm even taking the bait but I continue to receive notifications about this, so whatev.

Look, OP may or may not have been the victim of severe bullying. She would then have one anecdotal experience (n=1). You have one more anecdotal experience because you have never encountered such a thing in Canada or Australia (n=1). However, based on this reddit post and your own experience, it does not follow (logically speaking--I detest that word) that Germany is a particularly unique or severe case comared to most countries, because this is still one post and one other experience. I'm a bit shocked I have to say this tbh.

We have no idea whether Canada or Australia would be a better place in this sense and for all I know, this could as well be true. After all Germany appears to be in the middle globally and this implies that at least 50% of nations are superior in that area. Though I have to say that the results of a fast google search for "Canada bullying" or "Australia bullying" don't truly indicate that these countries are doing better at all (in fact, if anything, they might actually be worse) and if you believe that posts on reddit are such a representative example, you can look at other posts because there are entire subreddits on the subject and these people don't seem to be where you think they come from.

But ignoring the volume of information or publications on that subject since data and studies are difficult to compare in the first place understandably, it may also indicate that you and the OP are just entirely distinct and uncomparable individual instances. She is a foreigner living in a nation where her language skills are lacking. She works as an unskilled worker, she is a POC, and works in a workplace known to be toxic (medicin/nursing). She appears to be coming from a toxic home, which suggests that she faces difficulties in a number of other areas of her life. I'm not sure how this relates to you, but there are considerations to take into account as well.

Misinformed statements such as "there's even a clinical term for this" (as if the English language doesn't have a word with the exact meaning) or implying that it's especially horrible because psychologists are aware of that and "know what you mean" when you talk about is, to put it mildly, mental. And despite being a purportedly sympathetic answer, it doesn't assist the OP in making an informed choice. When individuals who have gone through similar experiences in Germany respond to her because this subreddit attracts bitter people and advise her to relocate to a different country - a significant and fundamental choice - that would be even worse advice because she is unaware that everyone is reacting in the same way when another country is mentioned, and her real problems might not change that way.

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CuriousLands@reddit

Well it's not bait lol, just thoughts, which I totally qualified with the caveat that I don't know much about Germany. And you don't have to respond if you don't want to.

I was more suggesting that maybe the specific type of bullying she's experienced a few times now is not that common, not that instances of bullying in a more general sense are less common. And maybe that's what the other commenter was trying to capture with the mobbing term - mobbing does imply a group after all, which is different from being bullied by just one or two people. (Come to think of it, I did experience that specifically in grades 6 and 9, just not at work. It's definitely a different dynamic.)

Like for example, in some countries there is culturally a higher level of sexism because it's encouraged and/or accepted, right. So if someone experienced bullying for being a woman trying to do something less traditional for women, to compare it to general bullying in a place like the US wouldn't be comparing the right things, and it would be fair to say that kind of bullying happens much less often. But maybe hypothetically the US has more bullying about other things - like perhaps a person is more likely to experience bullying over not wanting to drink alcohol or wear trendy clothes, something you'd hardly ever experience in some other countries. So on blance it might be a similar amount of bullying, but the nature of it is different. And it would be due to cultural differences too.

So yeah I was just putting out the idea that maybe this is where the point of distinction is. Not that Germany had more bullying than average, but maybe more of this specific type of bullying.

I dunno, personally I find this kind of thing to be helpful knowledge. Like in Australia my major irk is the housing quality and crappy rental agents. Knowing those are cultural issues can be discouraging, but it also helps to know it's not just me, and to have a more realistic view of my problem so I can adjust my actions accordingly.

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cryingingerman@reddit

There are countries where bullying occurs more. And then there are countries where it is less of a problem socially. It's common enough in Germany that psychological and social help exists exclusively for victims of bullying, and if you tell doctors about it, they will not be surprised.

You don't have to react negatively to my comment. You know I wasn't claiming that bullying doesn't exist in other countries. I was commenting on the magnitude of the problem.

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CuriousLands@reddit

Tbh, I've experienced workplace bullying in Canada, but not like what OP is describing. It's like this or that coworker or boss, not whole groups of people.

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wytnesschancealt@reddit

Okay I'm not sure what 'reacting negatively' to your comment means (unless you don't like being criticised on reddit). But bear in mind that when you frame something a certain way, or say 'it's not the case in other countries', or talk about the 'magnitude of the problem', you are indeed implying that Germany may be one of the worst offenders in this regard, or that it belongs somewhere at the top end of the scale, even though you aren't saying the sentence 'there's no bullying elsewhere'. It also sounds like you might be jumping to the wrong conclusion (e.g. that fewer specialists automatically means it's less of a problem, rather than there being more awareness about this).

Reliable data on this is hard to come by, but whenever you find studies that compare different countries, Germany ends up somewhere in the middle (https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1qwjkrw/percentage_of_students_aged_1315_years_who/; https://qz.com/365799/austria-has-the-most-bullying-in-the-western-world-sweden-has-the-least; https://www.oecd.org/en/about/programmes/pisa.html), so not great, but not terrile.

The way you phrase things makes a difference. If OP gets the impression that Germany is a particularly bad country in this regard, she might jump to the wrong conclusion (regardless of the fact that moving back or somewhere else might be a better idea for her, all things considered). She might think that things will get better for her, when maybe they won't. Alternatively, she might think it's a particular German problem and give up on trying to improve her situation here that would need another focus (maybe the particular workplace, or maybe her socioeconomically very strenious situation). In my opinion it does make quite a difference where Germany falls compared to other countries, and yes, statements like this might be misleading.

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cryingingerman@reddit

The problem is that OP already got an impression from her own experience of bullying in Germany. People believe in their own experiences more than data.

I can empathize with her because I was also bullied in Germany at the workplace. Immigrants are more likely to be victims of bullying regardless of the country they are in. And in Germany, they often are bullied and data supports this.

The only way for OP to change her opinion about the German workplace is to give her positive experiences, least of all is to tell her that she's wrong and the data says otherwise. This won't help her at all and confirm her belief that German people are unempathetic, which is exactly what you are currently doing.

You may mean well. But maybe part of your motivation is to defend Germany because you cannot believe that the country that is so good to you can be so awful to someone who is not born here. That is a very human thing, after all.

Maybe you should think more about your motivation to post in this thread. I commented to genuinely help OP. Why did you comment?

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wytnesschancealt@reddit

To be honest, I'm leaving this subreddit since it's probably a neurotic echo chamber at this point.

I never meant to tell her that immigrants don't experience much more prejudice or that bullying isn't an awful thing. But we were discussing the fact that this is a phenomena is somehow awful in Germany in particular and your statements were so ridiculous that my first reaction actually was to laugh and this and show to my boyfriend what these people on reddit say, but I also felt compelled to respond. So no, I don't think it's the greatest course of action to emphasize to OP that her issues are likely caused by the nation even though it might have been a good thing to emphesize that her experience at work is awful and her being an immigrant makes things worse.

Every time someone posts here, it turns into an echo chamber of extremely wealthy people ('90k isn't enough to live in Berlin these days :((( ), who are utterly miserable and confirm how terrible this or that country is, and that this alone is the reason they are so unhappy here, rather than their mental health (obviously stemming from something else), their marital issues (ahem), or anything else. Every post has the same commenters, confirming and feeding off their belief that this is the source of their discontent. I don't think it's beneficial to only have the same 10 or so people validate your opinions about the nation and wallowing in your misery forever (not changing anything or so) while many people would do anything to be in your situation. Yes, I am aware that this sub is not for me and I will be leaving it to find better peace :).

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cryingingerman@reddit

Honestly, you sound like a very triggered stalker since you're referencing my previous comment about Berlin. Please block me so you don't have to read my neurotic opinions. Lol.

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JaviMT8@reddit

You're definitely reacting negatively, as an outside observer of you in this thread, you're coming off as pretty defensive.

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Squawk1000@reddit

Mobbing has an English origin ('mob') and is a pretty common sociological term throughout Europe.

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wytnesschancealt@reddit

I'm not sure whether I got you correctly here. Of course it's a term that originated in English but it means bullying in German, it's one of those "false friends". Meaning Germans always think mobbing means bullying in English and students stay "I've experienced mobbing" and then they are always corrected by teachers because the English term is bullying.

We also borrowed the term "mob" but with the right definition this time. Then again (to) mob would mean something different and might not have the same equivalent (anpöbeln, über jmd. herfallen etc.)

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Squawk1000@reddit

I got confused by you saying mobbing is a German word. I get what you meant now.

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csikszentmihalyiscat@reddit

This is just awful. Realize this may not necessarily going to be appreciated but there is a God who "sees not as man sees."

"Man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart."

This world is evil and is passing away but all who put their trust in Jesus find salvation, hope and the truth about God's love. Everything else is just a flash in a pan, here today gone tomorrow and there will come a day where how someone looks on the outside won't help them at all.

Consider ditching this temporary broken world and its cruelties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL4-U1D7b_U

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Infamous-Libertine@reddit

I've been looking at different countries to move to. I scratched Germany off my list. I'm sure it's a wonderful country for Germans. I heard that they don't talk to strangers. And if you try to talk to them they look at you like you're nuts. I enjoy speaking with strangers. I enjoy learning about other people's cultures from them. For this reason I decided Germany wouldn't be a good fit for me.

But I agree ... Coming from a toxic family makes everything more complicated. As I've gotten older I've realized a lot of things that I thought were normal are completely a product of my toxic upbringing.

If you can try a different country instead of going home.

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Abject-Substance-108@reddit

Consider going to GP and getting therapy sessions. It will help immensely.

Also, it sounds easier than done, but look at those people and tell yourself that they’re in your life temporarily and they are not important figures. They’ll come and go so what they say has little to no value to you (well, it should be like that but it’s difficult).

Focus on yourself and let the negativity enter through one ear and out the other.

You are a tough cookie and don’t view yourself as inferior, a victim or something like that. You are a capable human to sort things out for yourself and make important improvements one step at a time

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Wspugea@reddit

Hey, where are you in Germany? I'd suggest moving to hamburg. It's multicultural and people are nice. In the house I live in 1 person is German, 6 others aren't and it's normal.

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

I'm in Osnabrück, the main city is rather cool and progressive but unfortunately I live on the outskirts. I have considered Hamburg, but I've heard the rent is pricier

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Bellanzz@reddit

I lived in Hamburg for 7 years and left it. One of the reasons was the coldness and aggressiveness of strangers.

Plus, the weather is miserable...

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Wspugea@reddit

Yeah rent can be really high in some parts, other parts are much cheaper and either way there's flat sharing. I have a big apartment and have a flatmate, helps paying the rent. There's jobs (though I don't know in which field you'd want to work). Maybe you should reconsider. There's a massive Asian community here as well.

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miseryglittery@reddit

PLEASE NEVER MOVE TO ANOTHER COUNTRY IF YOUR ONLY PLAN IS A MAN Like no shade but this never works for a reason

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

He wasn't my plan, I genuinely was super fascinated with Germany for years beforehand. He was sweet enough to help me through it all but I chose where I wanted to live and what to do. Now again I've chosen that we will go to Berlin and he is kind enough to just go with and support that. He's the last of my problems and the only person I trust 100% here because he's dealt with bullying and abuse too

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Waterpatat@reddit

You need thick skin to live in Nordic countries. People are every direct here, what you interpret as bullying could be them pointing out genuine observations. Either way the depressive low self esteem vibes you got going make you easy prey. No matter where you go people can sense when you’re defeated. They will treat you accordingly.

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

I can definitely see that, there's some people I've met who are direct but say they don't mean harm and just want to be constructive. That stings, but I can absolutely accept and appreciate that. What I experienced however with this particular group is genuine just people calling me disgusting and hideous despite me never being rude to them. The guy who is basically the 'group leader' yelled at me to tell me I don't earn the right to speak English with my coworker during my lunch breaks on my second day of starting there, so I think it's more than being blunt and them genuinely just finding my existence repulsive despite making friends with 2-3 other people there.

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DeeHarperLewis@reddit

You need to seek out an expat community immediately. When I moved overseas I had a wonderful experience because I never expected to be welcomed by local people, nor did I want to. I met people in language classes when we’re in the same situation, I joined online expat communities and made lifelong friends. Ignore these horrible people and don’t let them have space in your head. Seek out other SoAsians, Americans, Brits. Find your people.

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hot_chili_pepper_@reddit

Just leave. I was born and raised here and I hate it. i was gone for 2 years came back 3 months ago and leaving again in a week. Just go

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woahtheremate_@reddit

I am so sorry your parents set you up for this so much pain and turmoil. And this makes me so enraged at them. You are 20 and spent years in abuse and survival without support. With a dysregulated nervous system that was probably dependent on surviving and not rocking the boast so as not to attract more abuse. And pain that had nowhere to go but internally. The self hatred makes sense.. given the circumstances you were dealt. I want off first gently nudge you and say - the hate doesn’t belong to you. It is the pain of a child who has been forced to grow, exist and develop in the absence of the love that would enable you to thrive. And I am sorry. I am So SO SORRY this has been done to you. But I’m glad you came here.

You see what you don’t recognise in yourself I can see - and that is the desire to LIVE. Not to survive. It is also the instinct to protect your inner child and your nervous system at all costs. And that is what you have done here. Wobbly and stumbly? Of course. But you’re recreating your formative years with very little resource. Go easy on yourself.

I’m INSANELY PROUD OF YOU for picking up and leaving SA. You are SO Brave and this Bravery & Courage gives me assurance that you will come through this.

When I was 14, I’d experienced similar to you. The only difference is my parents were in the new country. My mother left back after a divorce and a breakdown from an abusive husband - my father - who then kicked me out. Why? I went to babysit because he’d leave for days for work and leave us very little money. And I too needed to breathe away from a dysregulated house.

I’ve stumbled until I found my way since then - raising myself at 14.. with multiple issues, no family, no support system. The biggest “trauma” I absorbed is feeling like a burden constantly - which in retrospect - led me to accepting anything. I had no boundaries, didn’t know how to stand up for myself, was too scared to and wanted to avoid confrontation, I didn’t know the system around me and was constantly in survival. No room for self. How could I though!

I think this is the first thing I’d like you to do. Find a place. Your place. Somewhere special to you. And be with yourself and your inner child for a moment. I want you to SEE her. To recognise her away from criticism, from eyes and from observation. I know it sound wild but I need you to acknowledge her.. and build a relationship with her and yourself slowly.

I want you to thank yourself for showing up for yourself in getting away from what would have destroyed you completely and remind yourself why you did it. Whatever your reasons are. I want you to recognise that YOU exist and YOU are important and your voice , your screams and pain deserve to be heard and if Motherfkers outside won’t hear it - you have and you WILL.

If there is something you are passionate about, find spaces to go. Eg do you like dancing? Or knitting? Whatever it is, I want you to get onto eventbrite - toggle it onto free events and activities and attend something. Just go. It will begin re wiring your neural pathways. I’d sometimes cry on the way but it changed my life, my network and my mind without me realising. It was also incredibly healing. If you can, I want you to listen to very quiet affirmations of self love, healing and encouragement at night - when you remember. Dont put any pressure on yourself or beat yourself up for not doing it everyday. Then - I want you to move when you can. Process out trauma with movement. Uphill walk, 10 jumping jacks a day challenge, wiggle your leg and butt to your favourite songs in private from time to time. It sounds wild but this is you reconnecting to self - so that she can carry you the rest of your journey in a self assurance that is life changing to your journey.

Next - CONGRATULATIONS on your job, and getting your residency! It was rough but You did that!!! And in proud of you for figuring it out with such little support in an entirely different country, culture and context - and in a COLD place too! And I know the cold there is not just physical but is in the people.

A couple of options. South Africans in Germany - type communities - online and in person. Seek them out. Any charities or organisations that support people with community, mental health, understanding the system, housing , mutual aid, immigrant organisations? Find them. Those are your people. They’re kind. They’re set up just for you. That is your tribe.

Take some time to write down your ideal needs. Take a day, make yourself a nice drink and get in touch with all of them. If it’s overwhelming, word vomit onto AI. Let it formulate and then send in lots of enquiries.

As for return, if you don’t want to return. Don’t! Try another place in Europe (warmer perhaps?) or another place in Germany. I personally found Berlin too harsh when I was there and couldn’t live there especially coming from a hotter country with much more warmth and community.

Ireland is much more community centred. London is great though expensive but happy to share resources with you on support. Italy can be lovely especially the south or major cities but earnings there can be tricky and then there’s language though English is spoken extensively. Much kinder too. Scotland too - Edinburgh, Glasgow - also much kinder. In the UK other major cities like Bristol , Manchester & Leeds are great. English speaking spots reducing cognitive load. Continued below 👇

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woahtheremate_@reddit

If you do want to go back to SA, you don’t have to go back to where your parents are or your parents house even. Since you know the system, plan, save and get your own spot.

Who gives a HECK what they think? I spent so much time doing this .. it took me over 10 years to finally realise my life belonged to me… and I spent it trying to appease to them, trying not to let them down, trying to escape the proverbial voice on my shoulders shouting in my ears how embarrassing a child I was and how much of a failure I was. Those things weren’t real. They were internalisations that were too loud and too embedded. All I needed to do was uproot them.

The moment it changed for me was when someone asked me — do you really think that you’re ever going to get the parents or family you want? Do you genuinely believe that one day, they will change just like that and give you all the love, affection and support you had always needed? And they’ll apologise and embrace you and fix the damage? Do you really think that family exists and you will get that one day?

I sat with that and knew my answer. And he asked me - so why are you living your life on those terms? Fighting to prove yourself and revolving your life around something that doesn’t exist?

It was in that moment I accepted my family was my family. And MY LIFE was and is - MY LIFE. Hitherto, we were enmeshed in my mind. That untangling changed my life! It gave me clarity - and there began my self advocacy. To be honest, it was the same year I cut off my parents. My father barely spoke to me anyway. My mother I made the decision that I’d close the door to her hurting me and constant criticism and abuse for damage that her, my father created & their families created in My life. I didn’t realise it at the time but it began my journey towards leaving an extremely abusive and unsupportive relationship.

I have been an ardent protector of myself since and I wish I’d had this way younger. It took 24 years. It doesn’t have to for you!!

As for the racists who hate migrants - I consider them low IQ 🤣 genuinely. I cannot even fathom how you don’t know history in an Information Age, and you have this huge problem with the fact that humanity exists. It’s like being angry at trees everyday. I ignore them, tell them to cry more, laugh in their faces or give them historical facts around migration and their own brutal invasion of sovereign countries. I’d remind them of the Berlin conference and destruction of Africa. I’d remind them of the gen0cide they committed in Namibia. I’d remind them of apartheid South Africa. And I’d remind them that me and them are NOT the same. I’d remind them how lucky they are that those they historically brutalised are not seeking revenge. Chin up. Chest out. Read your history and remember who you are!!!

There’s so much I could say as there’s many ways to attack this but hope some of this has been useful. And give you food for thought.

I can see lots of people have replied so hope a culmination of advice has helped.

Online community is great. In person community is great. It’s amazing you’re here now doing this. Keep coming back and figuring it out. This was a stream of consciousness from my experiences but by no means - here take this advice by force.

I wish you good luck and I’m rooting for you!!! 🙌🧿

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Disastrous_Bank_4825@reddit

If your not okay dm we are there for u

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WeAreAllStarsHere@reddit

I honestly can’t add anything substantial to this discussion but did wasn’t to offer my support because after reading your rant and the entire thread I feel for what you are going through and hope things turn around sometime soon.

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Skrivz@reddit

Try tirz or reta

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AK_Sole@reddit

Any major life adjustment, whether voluntary or involuntary, take years to adjust to, so be more patient with yourself.

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chamomileyes@reddit

Jesus Christ. I will say people who experienced abuse from their families tend to be more tolerant of abuse from others because they normalize it. This can lead to a feeling of being stuck and like history keeps repeating itself. Okay, the world isn’t perfect and there are crappy people. But you also have to genuinely know you deserve better and take responsibility for seeking better. Don’t just accept it or lay in it.

If your job treats you so heinously, do your best to find another job. Don’t plan on continuing there!!! If the place you live is so hostile to foreigners, maybe change cities or the over all country. There is no shame in doing what is best for you!! Also quite frankly, if your boyfriend’s family is creating a toxic environment and he has not healed or matured enough to create appropriate boundaries, leave him.

You. Deserve. Better.

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Fearlessbrat@reddit

I went to Germany for a week and I couldn’t wait for the minute my flight takes off and leave that place. Never visiting again so don’t hate yourself for recognizing that it’s not the right place for you. You may. Not be able to leave but since Germany is already miserable you don’t need to make your life more miserable

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GingerPrince72@reddit

I would concentrate on learning German and gradually trying to improve your self-esteem and mental health, which is clearly a mess.

Your problems won't be very different in another country where you can only do unqualified jobs and don't speak the language.

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

I've been doing that ever since the beginning of the bullying. I never stopped learning German and I can now have pretty intense conversations even if my responses aren't all well articulated in return. I also have gotten some materials and plan on enrolling in a course for higher level German, but people won't like me whether or not I can speak the language lol.

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GingerPrince72@reddit

If you've already decided in advance that people won't like you then no, they won't.

You've only been there for 5 months, it takes time to acquire a decent level of German, be patient with yourself and others. Stick with German and Germany but it won't change overnight.

Think about it, why would a German be delighted to meet someone who is a walking pity party, defensive, negative and has zero optimism about friendship?

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Visual-Border2673@reddit

I need to jump in here… Are you German? Do you live in Germany? Do you speak German yourself?

I feel that you are gaslighting op and you likely have no idea yourself of the realities of living as an auslander here in this present moment.

I live in Germany. It is not uncommon for immigrants to Germany to be treated this way. Especially to certain parts of Germany like Bavaria or old east Germany. Germans actually expect us to be fully integrated on day one, but also have no intention of opening their arms to welcome anyone in to be integrated (Germans mostly keep to their German friends and do not let others in- it is the most common auslander experience here).

You can speak perfect German, you can even be raised here since you were 8, but if you do not “look German enough” or “sound German enough” you will be treated poorly- ostracized, things made more difficult for you everywhere because they do not like you and do not want to help you (unfortunate at the supermarket, problematic from your doctor or utility), people get in your face perhaps and scream at you randomly, people will mob you, pick at you (things you say, your hair or makeup or god forbid tattoos, how you’re dressed, what or how you’re doing something, etc) even though you’re not doing anything wrong, deny you service or even make threats like calling cops though you’ve done nothing wrong.

I’ve even had little old ladies stop on the street, point at me mouth gaping, and turn a whole 180 doing this as I pass by simply because I’m dressed differently here (this has happened no less than 5 times, which is 5 times more than has ever happened in my life lmfao).

I’ve seen friends who have been here 20 years speaking perfect German after taking the German citizenship test and receiving their German passport and German citizenship still treated like a farm animal because they will never be seen as German enough. I’ve even seen this with 2nd Gen citizens, they just aren’t considered “German enough”, though of course these are usually minorities of some kind.

But overall it’s even worse for minorities here.

Please do not gaslight op Not being believed adds another layer of trauma You clearly have no idea what is really like here so do not talk like you do 👎

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GingerPrince72@reddit

I didn’t gaslight OP, I don’t live in Germany but I used to, I now live in Switzerland and my wife works in healthcare, both immigrants who have learned German. Explain how I’m gaslighting. I pointed out some things like her negativity and how little time she has spent and made some suggestions.

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Visual-Border2673@reddit

The things op talked about are extremely common in Germany. Switzerland is known to be a kinder place to auslanders.

You gaslit op by saying that they made up their mind that people won’t like them. I think it’s clear op has been treated obviously poorly and has reason to think that they ARE LITERALLY being treated poorly RIGHT NOW. Op didn’t decide this in advance so much as deciding this after the poor treatment is already becoming chronic. This is not disordered thinking on OP’s part but disordered group-think on behalf of this culture and likely region of Germany. You telling op otherwise is absolutely gaslighting.

And your last paragraph just shows how you judge op from this gaslighting perspective. I can assure you these stories are SO COMMON here amongst auslanders. I am involved in many different auslander communities here.

Read a little about certain areas of Germany where the AFD are doing well- auslanders have a wicked time in these parts.

Additionally, the time to say anything even remotely similar to your last paragraph is long after op has left any abusive situations and their nervous system has been able to leave the situation as well. You do not ask trauma survivors (which op very well may be in their family of origin) or people still living in trauma (which is what OP’s current situation is) to observe their likely subconscious or only pseudoconscious at best reactions to the very real issues they cannot escape at present. You victim blame op by telling them to simply develop a better mindset to their own abuse. It’s absolutely enraging.

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

Fair enough. I know I'm extremely negative but I feel like when I actually tried to be happy and friendly I often get pushed all the way down. I'll just try to forget about it and move on. Maybe one day in the near future it'll hurt less

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Hopeful_Hunt6988@reddit

In Europe the people will make excuses for their very shameful behaviour, it is embedded in the culture. They are a horrid people they will even go as far as saying your the problem yet they want to live all over the world and be accepted.

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Human-Ad4723@reddit

People in Germany like to see others suffer, and they do not like when others are happy and friendly. If you want to learn a German word that will explain a lot: Schadenfreude.

My advice for you is to stay professional, do not let them see your emotions, document everything (in writing). If you can, try to get to a different place, Heidelberg has a good reputation for how they treat their foreign nurses.

Good luck

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GingerPrince72@reddit

TBH you clearly need therapy but that will have to come later.

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Human-Ad4723@reddit

Nope, es someone who has worked for an organization that helps foreign Nurses in Germany, these problems are Germany/Western Europe exclusive. Regards of where the nurses came from, Mexico, India, Tunesia etc. Many nurses who moved to other countries (even other European countries like Norway) experienced much better situations. I believe OP 100% and wish them a lot of strength!

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Visual-Border2673@reddit

I live in Bavaria, I get this. I’ve experienced this myself too in pretty extreme and shocking ways and I’ve seen how my partner and my friends are treated (of course most are also auslanders), I’ve especially seen how those who are not white are treated. My black friends are treated so poorly here even though their German is fantastic . I see you and I feel you and I’m sorry you’re suffering 💖

I’m just here to validate you so you feel a little less crazy (I know I felt crazy for a while). It’s not you, it’s them. And I’ve even seen here how they also do this to a minority of Germans who choose louder alternative lifestyles, of the more obvious kind. It’s a kind of punishment mentality that also extends into group-think.

I also know how unsafe it can feel to be on the receiving end of it, I developed panic attacks because of how I was treated here. They did a really bad surgical malpractice on me 6 months after arriving (they left many plastic and metal items in me and told me for9 months that I wasn’t in pain and it was all in my head until an eventual xray and ct would show otherwise) and even after finally removing the items I’m still not better 5 years later. My own bad outcome because they botched my surgery was continuously blamed on me and real help is withheld. For 5 years I’ve been battling legally but our own lawyer also treats us poorly and refuses to do his job so we have gotten nowhere. They do not treat Germans like this, but these things are common here for auslanders.

Also just for the record I find the younger generations here (millennial and younger particularly) to be much better overall and more sensitive to being decent humans to others who are not just party of their own social/cultural group. Definitely not so with the older generations and those more in positions of power.

I loved Germany before I moved here, I had been an exchange student when I was 16 and had visited extensively, but now after moving here I’m just disappointed, and honestly a bit disgusted. But I’ve also regained my anger over the past few years and I started yelling back when they chose to treat me like livestock. I’ve even let a few doctors have it. So far, yelling back and doing so MY way (not whatever their culture expects) has worked every time and individual people have even been nice to me afterwards, in some cases it’s like I gain respect which is kind of gross but whatever. Where I’m from, engaging in behavior like this could get you in a brawl or shot, so it always sends me into a panic but it does feel nice to put these people in their place when they act foolish. It feels good to not care anymore…

But I’m white and I do not know how safe it would be for a person of color to be angry at a German. This is why I’m happy to give Germans an earful now if they mess with my friends who are not white. They’ve gotta go through me first. And I don’t mind going off on someone in English rather than German- they probably understand me just fine even if they pretend not to (and anyone around watching probably understands well enough too). Maybe see if your city has auslander groups you can join to meet some friends and stick together. I’m sorry you’re having an awful time of it here, but I get it, it’s not you it’s them 💖

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Visual-Border2673@reddit

Also, I recommend finding someone of a similar culture if possible, expat if possible, if you choose to find mental health care here. After my own experience here, I will only recommend a German to an expat living here if they are extremely good.

I was a total mess until I found an American therapist living in Bavaria. She understood all the things I’d been through because some happen to her and ask her clients are auslanders, so she also gets it and made me feel like I wasn’t crazy. That was a game changer for me, but I would’ve trusted a Canadian and probably any other English diaspora therapist as long as they answered my questions acceptably to prove I could trust them.

I came from an authoritarian fundamentalist Christian upbringing, a narcissistic cult of the father as God in a strict and punitive way, so I can also understand a bit of your family background though likely from a different perspective. I’ve done a lot of the work over the past decade or two to dismantle these systems within me (toxic abusive family systems, toxic abusive religious systems and cults, ptsd/cptsd, trauma, dissociation, etc) and I’ve been working the past few years on nervous system rewiring additionally. If you want some YouTube recommendations on any of these things feel free to ask and I’ll share. I have some really good people I follow whose videos have really helped me a lot with these things.

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Visual-Border2673@reddit

Oh and one more thing I just thought of- this theory really helped me out when I realized it, perhaps it can help you too…

I realized that Germany is a quiet culture. To be Good, Germans will usually be quiet and keep to themselves. This is respectful and keeps peace.

The Germans acting badly are usually the ones doing these other awful things. The Germans acting out against auslanders specifically are also those who likely are less international, more likely to lean AFD, and also less likely to be able to speak another language themselves (so they do a lot of projection with their own shame or perceived inferiority- Germans themselves have told me this). And I think there’s a similar amount of people acting badly as in any western culture at present, the only difference here is the good people are simply quiet here in Germany and keep to themselves because they are being polite. But I think in actuality it makes a huge difference to an outsider.

So from an auslander perspective, unless the auslander is somehow able to assimilate well which is seemingly hard to do, you may really only interact with bad Germans and all the rest are seemingly NPCs (obv not literally) because they do not interact. You get only the bad and none of the good that other less quiet cultures naturally would give you. The Germans who often vacation in Spain or Italy or Thailand usually go to these and similar places in part because not only is the weather warmer, but so too are the people and culture. It is much more pronounced of an effect imho from an auslander view since we likely have no group to go to here for warmth.

Contrast this with American culture in the USA- where people love to randomly come up to you and ask you questions and learn about you more frequently than people do here (for better or for worse lol). Strangers meet and mix all the time. Some strangers are golden, some are awful, many are in between. It’s easier to randomly make friends this way. But you likely don’t get as concentrated a group of people being outright hostile to you as regularly as you do here in Germany. Not that it doesn’t happen, but more of a percentages thing. Also, I haven’t been back for several years so I do realize it’s currently a dumpster fire over there.

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Humble-Ask-8691@reddit

I was also harassed by my parents and my mom kicked me out. she ran over me with a car crushing my feet. she kicked me out i had no towel no underwear with me and she sent me to a different country (in north america) it was a terrible start. i overcame so many traumas. Im glad i did not fail my studies tho.

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Humble-Ask-8691@reddit

I just want to finish my program have my diploma and then residency bc i cant imagine going back and living with her again. she used to call me parasite for not being able to find a job and living off of her. terrible i know.

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Humble-Ask-8691@reddit

in quebec i feel the same cant wait to move to ontario

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Fit-Duty-6810@reddit

Please post this in a Germany sub!

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

I tried, they would not approve it because apparently it has political themes..

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Visual-Border2673@reddit

I’ve been kicked from the German subs just for posting about what happened to me here and seeking help. God forbid you’re angry or upset about mistreatment. The German subs are usually hostile to auslanders who speak up, it’s not safe. I do not recommend this unless you are masochistic 😏

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Draconianfirst@reddit

I think you have the issues. Is not the environment but you. Germans are straight forward and never gonna bully you. Is not their culture. I'm part german. And honestly they treat better foreigners than their own people. But if you don't like it move back to your country. Btw the fact that you are Asian could be an issue. You don't feel identify with any of those countries. You are too young. Move and be happy, don't find a reason for suffer or be lazy when finally you find a job

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W_Rabbit@reddit

Doesn't sound like Germany is the problem.

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Wonderful_Page_4574@reddit

When I go to Netto in Germany they think I steal and when they see me €50 notes then they think I’m a drug lord.

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--2021--@reddit

My SO and I visited Germany once. Frankly I was a little worried about how he would experience it, he is poc and I am white, though queer and a religious minority. But this situation is not new to him, he grew up part of a very small minority in his community. And we were also meeting up with a group of people with some diversity which made it safer. Turned out his german was better than mine so people were sometimes friendlier to him than me.

I'm sorry that you went into this situation with an idealized frame of what it would be like and it turned out to be very different than what you expected. So now it becomes dealing with that. There are a lot of angles to this.

So how do you deal with this situation? You have a legacy of abuse. Which I personally have experience with, and how can have an effect on how you think, perceive, how you stand up for yourself or don't, how you set boundaries or don't. And it can leave you vulnerable to other bullies, particularly if you're different or a minority. It's kinda like a doubling down on being targeted.

I might not have the best answers as I have journeyed through life stumbling across resources and trying to figure it out without help. I can only tell you what I know.

One thing that might help is a book that discusses how people weaponize social situations or bully, and how you can deflect them. There's a book called "The Gift of Fear", read some of it a while ago, one thing I recall was it talked about "interviewing". So basically people test you to see what they can get away with. And if you don't assertively protect your boundaries, they will know they can get away with bullying you. If I recall correctly it's a white male author, the victims are often women. It may not be intersectional.

I kinda scanned it for anything that I could use quickly or topics I might want to learn more about and didn't go into much depth. There were a few interesting points I found helpful for me. Others might know of resources that may be more tailored towards you. Whether it's you dealing with racism, or dealing with bulling in the workplace, living as an expat, etc. The information is out there, it is a matter of seeking it out. Most of the time the information will be partial or imperfect and you are finding ways to use it as best you can to get further than where you are now.

It may help to seek out peer or support groups that feel welcoming to you. People who may share similar experiences and have tips for deflecting, redirecting, or turning the tables on people to work things in your favor. Whether they are expats from your country, a group centered on your culture. It's hard say. Belonging can be complicated. Was having a discussion of belonging long ago, and one person spoke about being black, growing up in a black neighborhood, but being relentlessly bullied because her mother was from a certain country. And then had to deal with racism outside the neighborhood. I have my own issues with belonging that I don't quite fit in anywhere, but I still talk to people and glean what I can. Sometimes it's the best you can do.

One aspect of bullying is messed up boundaries, so you take responsibility for things that are not yours, and maybe also don't take responsibility for what is yours.

I already deal with pretty severe self hatred. I know that that's my fault, and it's something I've wanted to work on and erase because I've finally left the source of it (my family)

The abuse you endured was not your fault, the self hatred is not your fault. Fault(blame) I feel is really more of weapon of emotional abuse. It can serve to keep a power dynamic or keep you trapped in a situation. Blaming yourself or others won't get you anywhere. It won't get you justice, it won't get you validation, it won't get you healing.

There is responsibility as what you own or take on as yours. What your family and others did was wrong, and it affected you. You are dealing with the aftermath of that, of social conditioning and behaviors that maybe helped you survive that environment but no longer serve you. And the environment you're in you're facing racism.

It becomes a matter of accepting the situation you're in, that doesn't mean it's ok, or you're ok, but you accept the reality of it. And you figure out what to do. Maybe you can't get to a place right now where you feel good, but you can figure out how to make it less bad. Find ways to deal with the bullies, find ways to protect yourself better, find others who validate and support you. And keep improving your situation. You may be guessing in the dark at first, but you can still stumble across information you can use. Keep seeking resources, information, create tools for yourself. Build out a plan to get to a better place.

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Zenzappppper@reddit

save and move. You young you can do it.

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Humble-Ask-8691@reddit

im so sorry.. europe is such a racist continent

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jxanne@reddit

SA - saudi or south africa?

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thegmohodste01@reddit

Saudi is KSA I think...

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Competitive-Leg-962@reddit

SA = Saudi Arabia

ZA = South Africa (Zuid Afrika in the local language)

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Garleekail@reddit

Which one of the “local” languageS?

FYI both ZA and SA are used to refer to South Africa.

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Defiant-Dare1223@reddit

They are referring to UN country codes.

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Environmental_Bat142@reddit

It is not even Zuid Afrika in the local language. That was the Dutch form. In Afrikaans it is also SA (Suid- Afrika)

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

Ah well we call it SA too. I assumed people generally knew it that way, my mistake

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Environmental_Bat142@reddit

South Africans always refer to it as SA. But I think in the global context it can be confusing .

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_Anonie_@reddit

The previous commenter was wrong OP. Rest of the planet knows it as SA.

"The most common initials and abbreviations for Saudi Arabia are KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia), SA (ISO 2-letter code), and SAU (ISO 3-letter code). These are used for international identification, sports broadcasting, and formal documentation.

KSA: Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (Commonly used to represent the full title) SA: ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 code SAU: ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 code SAR: Saudi Riyal (Currency code) .sa: Country-code top-level domain (ccTLD) "

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Alt_CauseIwasNaughty@reddit

I generally use it for South America lol, there are so many things getting abbreviated by SA it's hard to tell sometimes

Either way sorry for all the bullying, since it seems like working low paying jobs is your only option you're gonna meet a lot of bitter people and they're quick to bully someone

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SirHawrk@reddit

I read it as South Asia lmao

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dingle_don@reddit

I thought south america lol

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

South Africa lol

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jxanne@reddit

ok just wanted to know since it’s usually ZA

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No_Pen_376@reddit

I am not sure what yo want out of your post. It's all very confusing. I feel there are things being left out. I have relatives with lots and lots of problems, and when they regale me with the issues, they leave out many things that are relevant and illuminating. I feel there are lots of issues happening here, so it is hard to comment on the post, or the situation.

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

Honestly didn't want anything just had to vent into the void a little and maybe someone would reply saying they relate to a portion or so of it

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PinkHush-@reddit

remember that your worth isn’t tied to ignorant rants or anyone else’s narrow mind, so strut your fabulous self and let their negativity bounce off like a bad pop song.

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Overall-Desk7927@reddit

caramba pelo que leio no reddit parece que os alemães são todos sádicos e gostam de fazer os outros sofrerem.

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Ramroom_619@reddit

I’m sorry you’re going through such a tough time. Try to take care of yourself, taking it one day at a time. Those sad people being mean to you.. it’s a reflection of the emptiness in their lives. They’re pathetic and do not deserve to have a negative influence on your life.

One step at a time, focus on building your skills and finding a space where you are appreciated. It’s always easier said than done, but you are capable and you can do it.

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Cojemos@reddit

Well, get the self awareness necesessary. Which sounds like you have some level of it. Know the its worse back home. In the mean time, hang in there and ignore the haters, Don't allow rando people who won't be in your mind 3 years from now affect you. They are nothing to you in you greater life plan. Just rough patches in your journey. Do thrive in your work. Shine bright. Excel. And show everyone the educated and stellar employee you are. From there you move on. Just as one angel took you under their wings, so will another. It will change. it always changes but your perspective has to change as well. Line things up just as you did to leave SA, and start to plan an exit. Beginning with trying to establish residency then citizenship so you can move around Europe for other opportunities.

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Environmental_Bat142@reddit

Where in Germany are you at? I moved from SA to Germany 10 years ago, but I was much older than you and also “found my feet” career-wise in SA prior to moving here. The stress if you starting a career her, coupled with your already previous experiences with your family, as well as a very tough working environment makes it extra daunting. From my perspective - you can make it work in Germany and it seems like you are taking the right small steps. What I had to learn is that one has to develop a really thick skin to be happy here, which I suppose is not easy at your age. If I was you I would look for another job, seems your workplace is toxic. But in parallel also see if you can get some therapy. I think you have a lot to work on. Good luck, and be patient with yourself.

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Wonderful_Page_4574@reddit

I don’t think I have any advice but I believe in everything you say. I send you strength and hope things will be better in the future.

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Additional_HoneyAnd@reddit

I don't have any advice but I'm sorry you are experiencing such cruelty :(

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small-giraffe@reddit

I was bullied by my boyfriend's family when I lived with them after moving to the Netherlands. They continued to bully me after we moved out and my boyfriend started bullying me too. I had to break up with him. The stress was awful for my health. I moved back home and the relief of not seeing them everyday kept me going. Now I have plans for my future, a much better one than the one I would have got if I stayed. There were lots of things to stay for but the bad parts were too bad. Maybe you'll find happiness elsewhere, surrounded by people who appreciate you. Trust me, you will find your people, you just have to keep looking.

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Garleekail@reddit

Where is home ?

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small-giraffe@reddit

England

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swampgremlins@reddit

Depending on what level of melanin you have, either leave Europe altogether or move to the South of Europe. It’s not a good time to be brown in Europe, immigrant or not.

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Old_Bullfrog_1157@reddit (OP)

From what I see online, it's not a good time to be brown anywhere lol

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swampgremlins@reddit

Fair

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notajock@reddit

SA = Saudi Arabia, South America or South Africa??

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Delicious_Crazy513@reddit

Typical Germany

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nonula@reddit

Please don’t listen to any victim-blazers here. You need supportive voices, including inside your own head. “Look for the helpers.” I hope you will find the support that is out there!

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Expert-Fly8836@reddit

You sound depressed. Are you taking enough vitamin D?

Many people in Germany who immigrates from southern countries suffer from severe vitamin D deficiency. That of cause influences their performance and relationships.

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Jozefstoeptegel@reddit

Sounds like you have a lot going on, internally and externally. If I were you, I would make an appointment with your GP to get a referral for some sort of therapy. I've done so for less than what you're dealing with, and it's really helped.

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utsu31@reddit

Is there any possibility of finding other expats from SA? While I of course don't recommend you neglect your attempts at integration, in the end the most important thing is that you can be mentally healthy. So finding people from a similar background might help with feeling lonely and relativizing your experiences.