What’s something that’s factually correct, but would get you “cancelled” if you said it in your country?
Posted by Sad-n-Salty@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 125 comments
For me it’s whenever I use our constitutional name I get called a traitor! :)
Free-Celebration4562@reddit
Greece never belonged in the "West". And all of Eastern Europe too, incl. the Balkans. In Greece's specific case, we will always have more in common with Arabs and Asians than with Western Europe and USA, despite what people believe. This "shift" in culture and beliefs was forced a little before the revolution against the Ottoman occupation, so that Western Countries and Russia would fund the uprising. Whole parts of language, history and folklore were uprooted so that we look more western to others. It worked so well at the time that there was a widespread Hellenomania all over these western countries but also people in Greece lost parts of their culture that are only known to a few historians with niche research subjects now.
Striking_Shock_6463@reddit
Greek music would not exist the way it does today if it wasn’t for the Ottoman Empire and the sultans paying good money to the musicians of their courts to come up with new maqams and compositions. Greeks love to hate on Turks but thy would not have laika or rebetiko without them.
ApisBondar@reddit
Orthodox Christianity is on par with Hasidic Judaism and Taliban Islamism.
Hentaimemereview@reddit
Holy Reddit
Western_Toe_2536@reddit
Wouldn't get me "cancelled", but Northern Ireland should belong to Ireland (especially since the disaster of Brexit) and Gibraltar to Spain.
GrogmarktheRag@reddit
The Greek state repeatedly and explicitly treats Thracian Pomaks and Turks (yes Turks, not Greek Muslims), Slavic speakers in Macedonia, and Arvanites (tho to a lesser extent) as second class citizens, denying their ethnic heritage, restricting their cultural freedom and refusing to care for their distinct languages, asserting they're pretty much just "special/foreign-ized Greeks". This us because Greece simultaneously wants to say that anyone who was born and lives in Greece is equally Greek (good), but also being Greek requires the correct ancestry and heritage (bad).
Magistar_Idrisi@reddit
Operation Storm and its aftermath were a textbook example of ethnic cleansing.
Standard Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin are all variations of the same language (Štokavian).
In the same vein, Kajkavian and Čakavian are distinct languages whose eventual extinction will be the fault of Croatian nationalism and its ridiculous linguistic policies.
HOS was an openly neonazi militia and its symbols should be banned, full stop.
Alojzije Stepinac got what was coming to him.
Strawberrypizza__@reddit
"Alojzije Stepinac got what was coming to him." How? Please explain.
Magistar_Idrisi@reddit
He openly supported the Ustaše government and helped organize forced conversion campaigns of Orthodox Serbs. He criticized the Ustaše in private and helped several Jews survive the war, but he still considered the Nazis to be the lesser evil to the Partisans.
Also after the war he did nothing to stop his subordinates from establishing ratlines.
Strawberrypizza__@reddit
Ah, this is how you mean it. My brother/sister. I don't think this is true at all. But correct me when I make a mistake
'Historian of the Holocaust Martin Gilbert wrote that, "Stepinac, who in 1941 had welcomed Croat independence, subsequently condemned Croat atrocities against both Serbs and Jews, and himself saved a group of Jews in an old age home.'
AND
"Rychlak writes that the "Associated Press reported that "by 1942 Stepinac had become a harsh critic" of the Nazi puppet regime, condemning its "genocidal policies, which killed tens of thousands of Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and Croats." He thereby earned the enmity of the Croatian dictator, Ante Pavelić. ... [When] Pavelić traveled to Rome, he was greatly angered because he was denied the diplomatic audience he had wanted", although he enjoyed at least two "devotional" audiences with the pontiff, under whom the Vatican granted Pavelić "de facto recognition" as a "bastion against communism".[citation needed] Phayer wrote that Stepinac came to be known as jeudenfreundlich (Jew friendly) to the Nazis and the Ustaše regime. He suspended a number of priest collaborators in his diocese.[29]
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Usta%C5%A1e
Another thing: Forced conversion is prohibited by church teaching. It would be very strange, when a famous bishop of the capital city could get away with it and the Vatican not notice. In fact, there are documents from the 15th and 16th century, where Popes speak against colonialism and force.
Last thing: It was not a few jews. Here it says 6000, I am unsure how true it is or not. But he saved many, not just a few.
'But as she [a historian, Esther Gitman] searched through the archives of the Catholic cathedral in Zagreb, where Stepinac was assigned during the war, “I couldnʼt believe what this man has done. I had a few hundred documents and I started to interview people and I just collected hundreds and hundreds of them and I saw...what an amazing thing this man has done.”
In total, and through various strategies, Stepinac directly and indirectly rescued more than 6,000 Jews from the Holocaust.'
Source: https://www.ewtnnews.com/world/europe/how-this-croatian-cardinal-saved-thousands-of-jewish-lives
:)
Magistar_Idrisi@reddit
He never condemned the regime in public, nor did he ever do anything to support the resistance movement. At the same time, he kept cordial relations with the Ustaše regime, he was the military vicar of the armed forces of the Independent State of Croatia, etc.
And yet, that is precisely what happened. The Vatican turned a blind eye because it suited them, as is tradition. Tens of thousands of Serbs were forcibly converted to Catholicism. Stepinac knew all about it and was even involved in coordinating mass conversions. Of course, he always said that those conversions had to be "voluntary", but literally everyone knew that was not the case. Still, Stepinac never put a stop to them.
It's not.
Again, Stepinac was a willing collaborator. The fact that he sent a few angry letters to Pavelić doesn't change anything. He helped coordinate mass forced conversions of Orthodox Serbs, he remained at his military post throughout the war, he kept giving a veneer of legitimacy to the Ustaše regime until 1945, he did nothing to stop his subordinates from actively cooperating with the Ustaše in their genocidal campaigns, and he did absolutely nothing to help the resistance movement - as a matter of fact, he was openly opposed to it.
There were valid reasons for his post-war trial, and his sentence was just.
Wonderful-Top-1102@reddit
LOL its not ethnic cleansing. Fuck off serb
Magistar_Idrisi@reddit
I'm a Croat by ethnicity.
Comments of this sort will not be tolerated though.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
Byzantium is a joke compared to ancient Greece.
Cyprus shitshow is 100% on Cyprus, & "Makarios"
(& we were right not to get involved).
Metaxas is a good/great PM, (only in terms of foreign policy).
majority of the wars Greece fought (all except 2) were offensive in nature.
Venizelos right to ban communists.
Beautiful_Ad1971@reddit
Byzantium is way cooler than antiquity
St_Ascalon@reddit
Isnt it just facts? I mean sure Eastern Rome was pretty cool and not a joke at all. But Ancient greeks created biggest canon(outside of abrahamic religions even tho for me platon is even bigger than jesus ) of humankind. people still read Iliad or The Republic and many more.
ZestycloseHat4990@reddit
Arvanites, Vlachs and Macedonian slavs should have had respective educational institutions for each ones language preservation since the founding of the country
Beautiful_Ad1971@reddit
Thats public consensus bruh. But those population groups do not ethnically exist anymore. Only linguistically. You cant expect, an especially small minorities that barely ever reached 100.000 to mingle with the majority more than 500 years and think they are still ethnically aromanian, arvanite etc.
ComplicatedSunshine@reddit
Incvbvs666@reddit
There is still no reason to give away international recognition in exchange for... nothing!
Key-Concentrate806@reddit
I don't think they even need it.
Fred_Neecheh@reddit
I can fix her
sasvim_nebitan@reddit
Albanians are not Illyrians
Formal-Can-4168@reddit
Albanians do have grounds to claim that, even though it will remain a theory. A truth would be that even if there was some kind of discovery making it clear Albanians descended from Illyrians, it wouldn't change anything. Illyrians were not some kind of super civilization, they were mostly pirates and tribes who lived as farmers and mercenaries.
Additional-Gur7915@reddit
It has already been proven by genetic research. There's no doubt that Albanians descent from Illyrians.
And the story that Illyrians were pirates is shitty and untrue.
As for farmers and mercenaries, yes, most of the world were farmers some decades ago. Let alone thousands of years ago. Being a farmer, 4000 years ago, was the civilized way to live. Others lived by hunting and gathering.
Additional-Gur7915@reddit
Albanians are descendants of Illyrians. It's been proven by genetics.
ZestycloseHat4990@reddit
Technically speaking "Illyrians" is a term describing a variety of coultoures with an little consensus of their linguistic landscape and Albanians are probably one of them based on logic and geography.
d2mensions@reddit
Albanian “historians” and “linguists” that claim everything is Albanian is making Albania seem like a joke of a country. It’s okay to say “Apollonia was Greek city”, its okay to say “Durrës is a Greek toponym”.
Not everything has to be 100% Albanian, and that’s okay.
Additional-Gur7915@reddit
I don't think actual historians or linguists say that. Random people with no knowledge might..
That said, there's a lot that has been claimed as Slavic or Greek, when in fact, it is Albanian.
-Against-All-Gods-@reddit
Croatia as it was re-formed after the Turkish Wars has almost nothing to do with Croatia before the Turkish Wars.
fuzzy3000@reddit
Wdym? Generally curious
-Against-All-Gods-@reddit
The core territory (Dalmatian hinterland) was lost to Ottomans and Venetians and it never again became the political and demographic center of gravity. Instead it moved to Zagreb, in what was then considered Western Slavonia, a peripheral area which even spoke a different language.
The institutions survived, as the only thing that survived without doubt, but the personnel of those institutions was completely replaced because the old aristocracy was decimated on the battlefields. The whole Zrinski-Frankopan affair is extra tragic because they were the last remnant of medieval Croatian nobility.
Medieval material heritage of core Croatia is mostly gone. Basically nothing remained. What remained were, again, sparse monuments in peripheral areas that weren't as much affected by fighting(*); that's why you can find more Glagolitic in Krk than in entire continental Croatia. The cultural production could only continue in Zagreb and hinterland, and in Dalmatian cities under Venice; again, periphery.
And the most important part: population replacement. By 1700, when Turks were kicked out and the borders stabilized, pretty much everything east of the Virovitica-Karlovac-Karlobag line was empty. I'm talking up to 90% population loss. The fact is that geographically, demographically, and to a large extent culturally, Croatia is mostly descended from post-Ottoman resettlement, not from anything that existed there before.
(*) If you ever decide to troll Serbs a bit, the next time when they ask where are the tombs of our kings, you should reply with: "Destroyed while fighting Turks. Why are yours still standing?"
Hour-Promotion-2496@reddit
That's why Kajkavians today are genetically closer to Slovenes and even Czechs than their southern and eastern compatriots.
markohf12@reddit
The gov. cooked the history books in the 90s to protect the state from the Yugoslav wars and justify it’s existence outside of the Yugoslav sphere, to keep the population unified during times when countries were split and especially after the failed 2008 NATO bid - to get better terms for the naming dispute in the future.
Since none of these is no longer a threat, this should be corrected.
noiseeeeeeeee@reddit
I've heard a lot about this but never did a deep dive. What part got "cooked" actually? And how did it tie to the failed 2008 bid?
Would love to hear more!
Pristine-Breath6745@reddit
Wait what? What did they do?
hruschov@reddit
Croatia - saying anything positive about Yugoslavia.
Pristine-Breath6745@reddit
Mozart is overated
SituationRoyal6535@reddit
Saying that I don't particularly care about the national football team.
Alternative-Tie-4970@reddit
Tesla is a Serb
TheSamuil@reddit
The modern Cyrillic alphabet has little to do with what the students of Cyril and Methodius developed
nemasikiriki@reddit
Alija Izetbegovic, for all the good he did for the modern Bosnian nation, did equally as much damage. Radovan Karadzic and Mate Boban are equally to blame.
zwiegespalten_@reddit
Anatolian Turks descend, to a great extend from former Romans/Greeks. Nah, the fact that they were themselves assimilated Anatolians play no part here. Identity is not about genetics. You can be Turkish while acknowledging your ancestors‘ differing identity
Armenian genocide happened. Turkish/Muslim genocides in the Balkans/Caucasus happened as well. You don’t need to pick a side.
the Republican period was a one-party dictatorship ruled by one guy
Putrid_Speed_5138@reddit
Many of these points are not factually correct.
Also, many of them won't make you cancelled as seen in the fact that some people still defend them publicly and they don't get cancelled.
zwiegespalten_@reddit
I am not going to delve into details. There are enough genetic studies on the Turkish population conforming that the contemporary Turkish population descends foremost by native Anatolians with a minor central Asian component. That they had a Roman identity is also well established
The definition of genocide is also available online and rests on the intent of exterminating a population. The intent can be seen in Enver Pashas writings. And aside from a apolegetic Turkish nationalists, there is a consensus that it happened.
Mohammads marriage to Aisha was at 6-7 with thr consummation thereof dating to when she was 9
For Ghazi ideology, I’d refer you to Shukurov and Vryonis Junior.
Single party rule dictatorship during the republican era is also the consensus except maybe Turks.
Putrid_Speed_5138@reddit
Your generalizations and anachronic interpretations make many of these points quite meaningless. I also won't go into detail as it will take a book to respond each of your points. Let's just take your first point: It relies on historical anachronism and misinterprets population genetics.
First, framing the Roman/Byzantine identity as biological rather than civic erroneously projects 19th-century nationalist paradigms onto medieval populations. This argument has many flaws. For instance, it ignores the prior Hellenization of indigenous Anatolian groups like Lydians and Phrygians in Western Anatolia. On the other hand, Hellenistic colonialism has never advanced too deep into Inner and Eastern Anatolia. Furthermore, identity represents a dynamic sociological synthesis of language, culture, and collective memory. Differing ancestral affiliations do not retroactively invalidate it.
Second, population genetics actually demonstrates that dominant Anatolian haplogroups (J2, G, E1b1b) trace to Neolithic and Bronze Age populations, predating regional Hellenization by millennia. Categorizing these ancient markers as inherently "Greek" or "Roman" lacks scientific validity. Additionally, autosomal DNA studies consistently identify a 10% to 15% Central Asian genetic contribution in the modern Turkish population, with higher concentrations in southwestern regions like Muğla. The presence of Central Asian and Siberian haplogroups (C, N, Q) confirms significant demographic intermingling during the Turkic migration, falsifying the premise of purely cultural assimilation.
Finally, historical records contradict the narrative of a fully populated Byzantine Anatolia absorbing a small Turkic minority. During the 11th and 12th centuries, notably during his 1116 campaign, Emperor Alexios I systematically evacuated Christian populations from Western and Central Anatolia, resettling them in the Balkans. This policy left vast territories largely depopulated, directly facilitating large-scale Turkish migration and settlement rather than mere assimilation. This also explains the surprising finding about southwestern regions like Muğla, where "Turkic genes" currently dominate, despite the fact that the area was one of the focal points of Hellenistic colonization.
Comparative population genetics and historical linguistics demonstrate that the ethnogenesis of Anatolian Turks aligns with universal mechanisms of demographic synthesis, rather than representing a historical anomaly. If you look at comparable data from places like Britain or Spain, you will see that they are equally or even more heterogeneous. There is absolutely nothing surprising in Anatolia in terms of genetic makeup and cultural evolution, and what you claim here is as factually correct is factually incorrect.
zwiegespalten_@reddit
I haven’t framed Roman/Byzantine identity biologically. I also didn’t frame genetics in terms of a predating hellenistic identity either. I don’t assign cultural identities to genetic markers.
I said that the modern Anatolian Turkish population descends to a great extend from a native population whose identity was Roman/Greek with a minor Central Asian component. That this population itself descended from an earlier native population which itself was hellenized is something that I already said in my comment. I also pointed out that genetics and identity are separate.
What I say is „most of the ancestors of modern Anatolian Turks are native Anatolians who called themselves Romans. That they were themselves asimilated don’t invalidate their Romanness. Identity and genetics are Separate things. The same applies to modern Turks. That these descend mostly from a native Roman population with a minor central Asian component doesn’t invalidate their Turkishness. The identity of ancestors‘ and oneself can differ and there is nothing wrong about this.
I haven’t said that what happened in Anatolia was something different than what happened elsewhere.
Putrid_Speed_5138@reddit
This is why I used the word "meaningless" to describe your generalizations. If you concede that genetics and identity are distinct, and you acknowledge that the genetic material is Neolithic while the populations underwent successive waves of cultural assimilation, then singling out the "Roman/Greek" layer as the definitive ancestral identity of modern Anatolian Turks is entirely arbitrary.
You are selecting one specific epoch of cultural synthesis in a continuous, millennia-long process and presenting it as the foundational baseline for modern Turkish ancestry. If identity is fluid and genetics remain relatively static, branding the native ancestors of Turks specifically as "Romans" is a selective historical snapshot that provides no real analytical value. The historical reality of the 11th and 12th centuries that I previously raised is just one example to demonstrate it.
As a result, what you present here as a fact is not a fact. It is just an utterance of little semantic value, and absolutely no scientific value.
zwiegespalten_@reddit
I am familiar with "Rumi“ identity cultivated by Ottomans in Kafadar‘s work. Thanks tho.
You might see it as an arbitrary selection and singling out among many identities that were previously held by the ancestors of Modern Anatolian Turks. Though I can give a justification as to why it is not arbitrary. All the other identities were long gone by the time the ethnogenesis of the modern Turkish population. Isaurians, Galatians, Phyrgians, Urartians, Thracians, Hattians and many others were all long gone and assimilated into a Christian in religion, Roman in state, Greek in language identity. This was the identity held by the majority of the ancestors of contemporary Turkish population without any intermediary in between. If there are any cultural continuties between the former populations of Anatolia and the modern Turkish population, this must have inherited via the Roman milieu. This was also the identity of the locals when Turks arrived in Anatolia and started assimilating and intermingling with them. There is no connection to the older layers of Anatolia except through the intermediary of the Greco-Roman layer. This is my explanation why it is not arbitrary to single out this. Otherwise we could all go to Homo Erectus. But you seem to put the Hattian and Greco-Roman layer on equal footing for the ethnogenesis of the modern Anatolian Turkish population even though there is a gap of 2500 years between the Hattians and the ethnogenesis of Turks whereas the Greco-Romans directly contributed to it without any intermediary.
Putrid_Speed_5138@reddit
All these can be discussed and debated.
However, this post asks about "what’s something that’s factually correct, but would get you 'cancelled' if you said it in your country?"
I only point out that your first point is neither factually correct nor would get you “cancelled” in Turkey.
zwiegespalten_@reddit
But it is indeed factually correct that the modern Turkish population descends from a native population whose identity was Roman. It also descends from a population whose identity was Hattian through intermediaries or from a Turkic population without any intermediary. None of these are infactual or stand in contrast to one another.
I admit that not all the points would get me cancelled though there are some in the list that would get me cancelled.
Putrid_Speed_5138@reddit
This is why I say that the factual parts of your argument are meaningless because yes, modern [any_country] population descends from a native population whose identity was [arbitrarily_chosen_identy_name_1], [arbitrarily_chosen_identy_name_2], [arbitrarily_chosen_identy_name_3], [arbitrarily_chosen_identy_name_4]...
Even your example of an arbitrarily-chosen identity (Roman) doesn't mean much as a definition because we're talking about more than 2000 years of evolution.
The Roman Republic's Roman identity (let's say, during the Mithridatic Wars), was different compared to the late Roman Empire's Roman identity.
And even within the Byzantine era, the meaning of this identity evolved with various official policies and demographic changes.
More strikingly, even the Seljuk Turks had quickly adopted the Roman identity, albeit in a different form (more geographic than legal).
More meaningful "influences" can only be discussed in shorter periods of time --and only by pinpointing the comparison to more structural and verifiable elements, such as the language of the inhabitants or the institutions of states in the same geographic area.
zwiegespalten_@reddit
Alright let me be rigorous:
The majority of the ancestors of the contemporary Anatolian Turkish population between 12th to 15th centuries stemmed from a population who practiced Greek-Orthodox Christianity, spoke a form of Medieval Demotic Greek and identified with the medieval form of the Roman state. During this period, they were intermingled with and assimilated into a Turco-Persian Islamic society
Putrid_Speed_5138@reddit
Well, I agree with this one, but it won't get you “cancelled” :)
zwiegespalten_@reddit
Yeah but this might be one of the most benign statements in the list 🤷🏻♂️
Sekalino@reddit
It’s so dumb that they can’t accept that it was a dictatorship because that’s what it literally was. Atatürk ruled until he died.
I get that there are negative connotations attached to the word dictatorship but just outright denying it won’t change that it happened.
Also, and this is my opinion on the matter, it was a good thing that Atatürk decided we weren’t ready to rule ourselves yet because we simply really weren’t ready. Just look at Germany after WW1 they got their democracy at the same time as us and it ended in a shitshow. By the people, of the people, for the people, requires responsible people that know how to democracy or else some sleezy fuck is going to take advantage of their ignorance as it happened time and time again ever since the times of Ancient Greece. It’s also what Socrates warned us about.
BamBumKiofte23@reddit
Fellow traitor here. "Macedonians can call themselves whatever they want, you can't control it and you don't have to".
mrgleman@reddit
Not controversial anymore after the agreement we had. They get to call themselves Macedonians ( with Slavic context ) without appropriating the Greek Macedonian identity , so it’s win-win in my opinion for both sides
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Maceodnian(with slavic context )what does that even mean? That is the most stupid issue that never existed ,you got to bully them just because you in the EU and they wanna join ,if your government made you believe this is important then you are stupid too
mrgleman@reddit
It means that they get to use the name Macedonian without our historical heritage and identity , it’s not issue as it’s considered solved
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
It was never an issue to begin with and there is no difference between being called “macedonian” or “macedonian” ,you must be a genius
mrgleman@reddit
By agreement that was signed the name “ Macedonian “ when used by the citizens of north Macedonia refers to the group and its history of the area of north Macedonia , the language when referred as Macedonian , it refers to the modern language that belongs to slavic group of families
When the word Macedonian is used by the Greek state it refers to the history and identity of the people living in Greek Macedonia , same when the word Macedonian is used to describe the language , it refers to the Ancient Greek Macedonian language.
You can cope all you want but the faster you accept it , the better , case is closed whether Greeks or Macedonians like it or not , move on
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
They are still being called Macedonian(no context)😂😂you are just stupid ,if Macedonia were in the EU and Greece wanted to join Macedonia would have bullied your too ,you picked the name also 200 years ago
mrgleman@reddit
Yes they are being called Macedonian , I didn’t deny that lmao , I literally called them Macedonian as well , I’m just pointing out that the agreement erases their claims to ancient Macedonian heritage and lands , language , nothing more nothing less.
Also the official name is “ Macedonian/Citizen of North Macedonia “ , but in short obviously people say “ Macedonian “
The English version of their passport for example mentions the “ Macedonian / Citizen of north Macedonia “ not just “ Macedonian “
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
I was just pointing out that if they were in the EU and you were not ,they would have bullied you also for stupid reasons and again being called “macedonian” or “macedonian” is the same shit
mrgleman@reddit
“ if my grandma had balls it would be my grandpa “
They could certainly “ bully “ us with something as EU would give a leverage , but not with Macedonian identity as besides them that topic was considered a meme in academic circles.
I honestly don’t care how they call themselves , as long as it cleared the confusion between Ancient Greek Macedonians and the modern ones.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Not only with Macedonian identity but also with the minorities you guys do not recognize,I mean from an academic standpoint it is clear that you picked the ancient Greek identity 200 years ago so are the assimilated Slavs in Greece the same as Slavo Macedonians,do they get to claim Alexander exactly as their slavic counterpart that got assimilated? What about the Pontics or Egyptian Greek,do they have more legitimacy than a slavic dude that lived and was mixed with the local populationin the same area for more than 1500 years ?? You live in your own bubble and I kinda feel sad that stupid nationalistic perspective is still a thing
mrgleman@reddit
The Greek identity has its foundations in ancient times , you can easily use google to find plenty texts confirming it , even during the period of eastern Roman Empire when Greeks were calling themselves Rhomioi , the Europeans called them Greeks and the eastern Roman Empire as “ empire of Greeks “ because they believed that Greeks should not hold the title of Rome.
It’s funny you mention Pontic and Egyptian Greeks as argument against Alexander the Great because the reason they exist as Greeks is …. Alexander the Great lmao , his conquests hellenised and spread the Greek identity in those parts of world , without Alexander’s hellenisation conquests the Greek groups would be diffrent in modern times.
And keep your advices for “ stupid nationalism “ to your own people before you try to spread it to others , before we get to the claims of some of your academics that “ napoleon was Albanian “ , “ Ancient Greeks were Illyrians , Romans were Illyrians “
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
You started making non sensical claims cuz you cannot accept reality ,during the Greek Revolution according to main stream historians there were 20-33 % Albanians,15-25% Slavs,10-15% Vlachs ,5-15% Turks,how many Greeks were there??Just a couple of Maniots ,Tsakonians and Islanders . Dude Alexander was from modern mainland Greece just because he hellenized people during does not mean they became related to him or to the mainland people and his Grandfather needed also to prove his Greekness before participating in the Olympic games. The Albanians that claim those thing are exactly as ridiculous as you ,stupid nationalists ,do not think you are better
mrgleman@reddit
Yes you are correct that because of ATHENIAN objections ( not Greeks generally , only them ) , early Macedonians had to prove their Greekness in order to participate in Olympics , which they did prove it and they participated which settles the topic whether they were Greeks or not , so what’s your point ?
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
The point is clear ,you skipped completely the ethnic composition of Greece during revolution and went right to Alexander😂😂if I was a Greek nationalist ,I would have troubles sleeping at night
mrgleman@reddit
I think except of hair transplant you could try for a brain one next time :)
I skipped that part because it’s just nonsense, but if you insist we can go there too , you claim that a number of Greeks is assimilated foreigners right ? Yes that’s true.
But assimilations didn’t magically appeared in 1800’s and they were not exclusive to Greece. Why you cherry pick that date and period only ?
Let’s cover them all , the Turks you mentioned were not Turkic but assimilated natives ( Greeks / Thracians / Illyrians / paleo Balkans )
Slavs - the majority of Slavs in Balkans are not settlers of Ural Mountains but assimilated natives ( mostly Illyrians and Thracians , or peonians in case of modern Macedonians which would put them in Thraco-Illyrian group )
Albanians - Albania was pure and inhabited only by Albanians ? What about the dozen Illyrian tribes , peonians , Thracians and Greeks who lived there as well ?
You use the population census of 1800 to prove your point that some Greeks are assimilated but assimilation in the region are happening since 300 b.c
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
It is not nonsense ,it is academical consesus that was a revival of ancient identity in a multi ethnic composition. You are talking nonsense regarding Albania and modern populations ,Illyrians ,Thracian,Dacian and ancient Greek ceased to exist as identity 1800-2000 years ago ,what nonsense is that?? Albania recognizes its Greek,Slavic and Vlach minority unlike Greece ,there is no such a thing as Thracian minority 😂😂even personal attaccks wont help your silly claims,you talk nonsense
mrgleman@reddit
“ every single one ? “ 😆 so it won’t be hard to give me name of 3-4 of them who are unbiased , since you have millions options , go ahead choose 3-4 of them , it won’t be hard right , napoleon boy ?
If you don’t believe my claims , search them yourself don’t listen to me
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
I have already searched them,they are false anu single historian would say Roman was the main identity no such thing as Greek from 200 ad to 1700-1800. Eleni Glykatzi a Greek historian talks about the ethnic composition of Greece in the 1800s ,she was the nationalist nightmare,you are clearly ignorant on the topic just the fact that you mentioned Thracians as Illyrians as minority tells a lot about your knowledge
mrgleman@reddit
Rhomios was the dominant self identifying factor as Greeks were citizens of the Roman empire , yet they still had Greek identity.
In Europe eastern Roman Empire was called : Imperium Graecorum , Griechenreich and “Griechenkaiserreich” (Greek emperorship)
Rhomios is used even today ( to small extend ) older Greeks still call themselves like that , does that make them Roman ?
What you fail to understand is that Greek ( like EVERY other ) modern nationality didn’t exist until French Revolution, that’s not exclusive to Greeks but to every European
There is not a single historian saying the Greek identity didn’t exist before 1800 , you probably can’t grasp the concept of modern national identity , and it’s okay no worries , I am not here to teach you what your teachers and common sense failed to teach you :) enjoy your day neighbor , I have nothing else to say without repeating myself as you clearly can’t understand the basic concept
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
That is just bs ,Rhomioi was the ONLY IDENTITY!!! It would be the same if you picked the name Ottoman after 500 years of conquest . I literally gave you the name of the famous Greek historian saying it and you just skip and talk nonsense😂😂if I was a Greek nationalist I sincerely would have trouble sleeping at night
mrgleman@reddit
Don’t worry about my sleep it’s fine :)
I would worry more about your intellectual capability of understanding, regarding the historian Helene Ahrweiler (Eleni Glykatzi ) you mentioned , she doesn’t say Greek identity didn’t exist prior to 1800 lmao , you carry the same brain as the blind Greek ultra nationalists who hated her because they don’t understand what she was saying.
She believed that Greek nation existed from classical times until now , but she didn’t like that nationalists rejected the Rhomioi identity and its contributions to modern Greek identity.
You see many far righter and ultra nationalists go from Ancient Greeks to modern Greeks , skipping everything between which is nonsense from logical and academic point of view , what Helene was saying is that modern Greeks are closer to Rhomioi Greeks than we are to ancient ones , no shit ! That’s common sense and you don’t need a historian to tell you that you are more similar to someone from 1400 than to someone from 300 BC.
Nice try though with Helene ! You might have triggered some idiotic ultra nationalist but not me , most of Greeks we see her as one of the greatest academics in our modern history , I’m glad her fame reached to you
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
She does not say that ,you are just sugar coating it to make you sleep better at night😂😂she talks about the multi ethnic composition of the eastern Roman Empire and especially about the mainland Greece ethnic composition ,that is why nationalists used to hate her. She even claimed that the great majority of Athen and Attica was Albanian in the 1800s ,Im sure you love thag claim😂😂do these Albanians get to claim Alexander the Great?I do not think so😂😂
mrgleman@reddit
Her stance to Greek identity is that there is a line of continuity from ancient to modern with many links , if you aren’t capable of reading that’s the problem of your teachers and your parents , not mine honestly.
Nationalists hate her because she was against the ancient-centered ideology of nationalism , every academic agrees on that and whoever denied Rhomioi link is just a brainwashed far right pseudo historian.
Yes Attica had tons of Arvanites who were assimilated into being Greeks what’s your point still I don’t get it ? 😆
You worry for Arvanites and their legacy to Alexander ? Well I guess since they identity as Greeks now they can do what they wish , Greek nation was never about genetics but culture and language.
Greeks themselves were not 1 group of people but a multi mix of many , Minoans for example were not Greeks because they were older than Greek civilisation but they became Greeks once they got absorbed by Mycenaeans.
Dorians , Ionians , Aeolians come to Greece later at different time from different place , yet they were still Greeks , Anatolians who were hellenised ( same case as Arvanites ) they were seen as Greek also , you are trying to trigger me that Greeks have Albanian admixture in our genes? 😆 it’s common sense and fact that Greeks and Albanians have similar ancestry because we live next to each other for 2500 years +++
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
This is the main contradictory nationalist propaganda ,so if the Albanians or Slavs that got assimilated get to claim ancient Greek heritage ,why cant Slav Macedonians claim it too?just because they do not speak Greek?what if they start speaking Greek?believe it or not even Slavo Macedonians share almost the same genetic as any other balkanik population and maybe they were even linguistically Greek during specific period of time,in the sense that they went back an forth from Greek-Slavic-Greek-Slavic The rest of the world does not see ethnicity as you see it ,if your claim is that Greece is a multi ethnic country that started to adopt modern Greek identity no one will have an issue against it but if your claim is the modern Greeks are a direct continuation of ancient Greeks would be silly af because we have plenty of evidence against it. Nationalist hated her because she talked about the multi ethnic composition of modern Greece not because they dismiss Rhomioi identity(most of them dont) .
mrgleman@reddit
Greeks are continuing from ancient times but not the way ultra nationalists believe , the core of Greek people remained more or less same but of course with admixtures ( Albanian and paleo Balkan being the most )
Arvanites were not invaders they were invited and they were integrated in Greek society quite easy and they offered their blood in our independence that’s more than enough to consider them fellow Greeks in my opinion since they fought and bled for Greece .
Now regarding Slavic Macedonians , what makes them to claim the ancient Macedonian identity in your opinion ? Yes they are paleobalkan mostly as you correctly mentioned but the territory they live was not populated by Macedonians but by Peonians.
So my question is the following IF
A) they don’t live in same territory as Macedonians , nor have any land that was part of Macedonian original kingdom
B) they don’t speak Greek
C) they dont have Greek national consciousness
What link they have to Macedonia ? As Helene correctly mentions ( and that was the case since ancient times ) Greek identity is defined by culture and by language , later in Byzantine times religion was added also in the list .
So in short even if we use the pre - nationalism standards they have nothing to do with Macedonians of ancient era
I don’t understand why you keep pushing this narrative , your options are mostly aligned with mine , I am not claiming any Greek blood purity as this thing doesn’t exist anywhere in world , every modern nation is mixed.
But identity isn’t tied to blood otherwise Austrians and East Germans would be considered Slavic people
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Why would Austrians and east Germans be considered Slavic,they have slavic admixture as almost all europe but that does not make them slavic. There was no borders in ancient times and I already answered why slavo Macedonians get to claim exactly as the assimilated Albanians and Slavs get to claim it ,we cannot use double standards ,the Rhomioi identity was not exclusive to Greek speaking but to all the Orthodox and obviously there was no sense of modern identiy but there were clearly different groups with different language,customs and culture. The only undeniable continuity is the Greek language which was a lingua franca as english today (even more important )but the jews who wrote the new testament in Greek were definetely not Greek exactly as the Egyptians that you claim they were hellenized (only the ruling elite was Greek) and even in the Pontic area same shit ,that is why it makes sense that Slavo Macedonian claim ancient Greek heritage ,they are also tied to those lands.
mrgleman@reddit
Austrians / Germans was just an example that you don’t need to be racially pure as ultra nationalists believe to be part of X nation.
But my question to your statement of modern Macedonians , how they are tied to Macedonian lands ? A small minority of them are from Greek Macedonia , how can someone from ohrid or Skopje or veles or tetovo be tied to Macedonian land since they don’t live there?
The assimilated Albanians ( Arvanites ) get to claim it because they fill every category of being Greek
Ancient identity standards ( they don’t apply nowadays this is just example )
Speak Greek ✅ Greek culture/education ✅
Modern identity standards : Greek culture ✅ Greek language ✅ Orthodox ✅ Consider themselves Greek ✅
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Using chat gpt does not make you look smart ,the Ancient Macedonian Kingdom encompassed most (maybe all) of the modern Macedonian territory so idk what are you even talking about. The problem is that you do not get to decide how ethnicity is defined,what if those assimilated Albanians and Slavs started to identify as modern Albanian and Slavs ,would they still get to claim it?you see how silly it sounds,there should not be double standards,I personally do not identity as any of the ancient populations and I think is stupid to do so but if someone wants to do it ,they should be free to do it,a Slavo Macedonian has the same right as a modern Greek to pick the name he wanna be called.
mrgleman@reddit
I didn’t use chat , I added the ticks myself I believe I am capable of doing that without a chat lol
I just wanted to make my text easily readable because Reddit would give it all in same line and ticks would look ridiculous without adding extra spaces.
Ancient Macedonian kingdom conquered the land of modern north Macedonia , Macedonians were not living there , north Macedonia was part of Macedonia same way Pakistan , Syria and Egypt was.
The original ancient Macedonian kingdom before it started expanding was entirely in Greece ( it didn’t even cover full of Greek Macedonia )
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Those geographical border claims are completely made up from you😂 A balkanik Slavo Macedonian has more rights to claim ancient balkanik populations as someone that came from Egypt or Pontus (there were a lot that came from there) .
mrgleman@reddit
Okay then what are the borders of ancient Macedon kingdom according to you ?
And before you say “ borders didn’t exist “ they did , just in difference sense than modern ones , or make it easier for you , which ancient Macedonian cities existed in north Macedonia ?
( and no Heraclea isn’t one of them because it was Peonian city that was conquered and re-named )
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
According to Brittanica before Philip 2nd but the reality was that there were no borders as today ,just some tribes winning over each other
mrgleman@reddit
Nice we start heading somewhere , that map shows approximately that Albania has ALMOST better claim than north Macedonia itself 😂
Also that map is from 350~ bc area which excludes the conquests of Alexander I ( towards north ) and Amyntas III ( towards north and Illyria )
Now can you please tell me , in the entire geographical area of north Macedonia how many cities Macedonians created and settle them with Macedonians ?
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Based on the map Albania has no better claim than modern North Macedonia and Im being realistic here,there are a lot of cities and Idk why you already dismissed Heraclea(you are very biased) Ohrid,Stobi etc. Ancient hellenization was completely different than the moder times because 200 years ago “ethnic identities” were pretty much defined and I will repeat again than Slavo Macedonian get the same rights as an assimilated Slav in Greece to claim ancient Greek heritage (if they want to) I think is stupid to claim it but I do not use double standards like you
mrgleman@reddit
Even I consider Heraclea as Macedonian city , I don’t think the Macedonians completely wiped out and genocided the natives there and replaced them with Macedonians , anyway for the conversation I will consider Heraclea as 100% Macedonian city , ohrid and stobi were also non Greek cities but they were renamed and developed by Greeks when tho the population was not Greek , but I will go even further and consider them Greek as well , so in the entire nation we got 3 cities that remained Macedonian for ONLY 190-220 years approximately before Roman conquest .
Before you mentioned that the borders in that area were fluid between some tribes winning over some others which makes even harder to consider these lands as core Macedonian .
And regarding the assimilated Slavs in Greece we already said before that in order to be considered Greek either by modern or by ancient standards you need to fill some requirements , those in Greece fill them ( even though their assimilation was not natural and peaceful unlike Arvanites )
So back to the those in north Macedonia , what they have in common with Greek civilisation other than that their 15% of ther land was “ switching hand between tribes 2600 years ago “ as you said ?
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
From my point view they have nothing in common with ancient Greek civilisation exactly as you have nothing in common beside the language and I made my case why and even main stream historians agree with it,how can an assimilated Slav from 100-200 years ago be the descendant of Ancient Greeks ,it does not make sense so either both get to claim it or none of them.
mrgleman@reddit
What else can we have in common with Ancient Greek civilisation other than language?
Wear white togas and worship Zeus ?
Albanians for example are paleo Balkan people and even your language is less related to your thraco illyrian ancestors due to Latin loanwords that overflow it , but it’s not correct to say “ Albanians are not old nation because their state was formed in 1900 and their language is heavily mixed with Latin “
Also you keep mentioning the assimilated Slavs of Greece but you know that those are a minority right ? There were Greeks living in Macedonia as well , not everyone is assimilated Slav
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Well Zeus >>>>>> Middle eastern Yahweh😂😂but beside that the point is that if you get to claim it ,they get to claim it too. We have no idea how the Thraco -Illyrian language was so we cannot say how much it changed ,we have only some Messapian inscriptions and we cannot make assumption based on that. It is also stupid to claim Albanians= Illyrians/Thracians exactly as it stupid to claim Modern Greeks=Ancient Greeks ,this is silly nationalistic propaganda,we know that ancient identity was completely different than modern one so we cannot align or even compare them the only sensical claim we can make that all of these populations share almost the same genetic profile and all of them belonged to the Indo European culture and that is it.
mrgleman@reddit
Albanians have to descent from somewhere and while the theory that : all Illyrians = Albanians , is wrong in my opinion because of poor knowledge we have of Illyrians , it’s safe to say Albanians = Illyrians due to the fact they are paleobalkan people and didn’t pop out of nowhere .
Of course there are many differences same way modern and ancient Greek but that’s natural , no nation remains same in such huge period
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Ofc they have to descend from somewhere and they descend from Paleo Balkanik people with Slavic admixture exactly as any other one in the Balkans but we cannot say what they were in the ancient times or during the 3000 years period of the scarse history that we know and again identity back then was completely different,you cannot compare it ,idk what you are even arguing about at this point.
mrgleman@reddit
Which historian says Greek identity didn’t exist before 1800 ?
Let’s check some mentions from every period :
Plutarch (c. 100 AD) “I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world.”
Julian the Apostate (4th century AD) “We are Hellenes… by culture and by our devotion to the gods.”
Anna Komnene (12th century) “I am a Greek by birth and proud of my heritage.”
Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (10th century) “Our empire… is called Roman, yet it is Greek in speech.”
George Gemistos Plethon (15th century) “We are Hellenes by race and culture.”
You can search yourself for more , Greek identity never stopped from existing. People didn’t woke up 1 day in 1800 and decided to be Greeks
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Every single one and you are lying about your claims even though they are ridiclpus because there are 10000000 claims that the identity was Roman and not Greek,Greek /Hellene was derogatory and could have even put you to death You are just copy pasting answers from chat gpt😂😂
mrgleman@reddit
Personal attacks are included in every message , I am being polite and you act like a monkey , you deserved it
Let’s go back to the “ Greek identity ceased to exist 2000 years ago “ , so you say there is no continuity mentions of the Greek identity in that period prior to 1800 , is that correct ?
fuzzy3000@reddit
C'mon man be real, when people hear Macedonia they think about the counry bit the region, in modern context. I bet my ass most people dont even known there is a region in Greece still called Macedonia today. Even I don't think of the historic Macedonian language as a thing and I like history. It really did feel like you bullied the Serbian-Bulgars.
mrgleman@reddit
I don’t disagree with what you said , which is why I think the “ North Macedonia “ was good deal because it clears the confusion between the Slavic and Greek Macedonia thing , it ll take time to stick around but it will
Legitimate_Kick_5628@reddit
Based
Happy-Hour88@reddit
- We're not the oldest country in Europe. San Marino is older and while we have kept our name without nay changes, for long stretches of our history we weren't even on the map but part of Byzantium for about 300 years and the Ottoman Empire for 500. It's funny how we claim to have been a country for 1300+ years when for about 800 of them we weren't even existing on the map... I think Portugal and France have so far existed for far longer without getting subsumed under another country's name.
- We have the highest peak in the Balkans Musala but our mountains aren't as spectacular as the mountains in Greece. On the way from Sofia to Thessaloniki I always find the mountains South of the border more impressive because they look huge as their river valleys of Struma and Vadar are really low-lying as you go South. In Bulgaria whenever there's a mountain the nearby valleys are actually quite high themselves so you don't have such a mouth-dropping contrast. Look how dark green (low) are the Vardar and Struma valleys in Greece, wherever Bulgaria has similarly dark green places they're never as close to as high mountains: https://server.www.robert-schuman.eu/storage/images/banque/largeur-585/2022-05-23-12-04-56.6607.jpg
Let the angry Bulgarian comments begin.
fuzzy3000@reddit
Oh boy. Here we go. 10 things.
Fickle-Message-6143@reddit
What is controversial about that?
fuzzy3000@reddit
I once tried to have this conversation in a civil way. But appereantly larping as an Arab / Turk from the hinterlands is still in Fashion. Maoča is in my back yard.
LenaLena93@reddit
ScarRedDA@reddit
Expressing hate towards a fellow native with a different religion only creates national division and aids foreign powers
For some reason this is controversial
int23_t@reddit
Kurds can and should get independence, the region is not beneficial to Turkey in any way anyways, they get way too much investment and contribute nothing, and they steal electricity and whatnot. Just let them go, we are better off with them independent.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
lol.
(it's, probably, the only way Turkey joins the EU, or well at least it's no longer 0% lol).
krisvelde@reddit
It's not in my country, but saying burek with cheese in Bosnia is common mistake
Additional-Gur7915@reddit
"There's no God."
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
But Allah…😂😂
GeneralVuk@reddit
AYYY! Where is this coming from!?
BigFreakingZombie@reddit
Could be from anywhere to be honest. People here can be very religious especially in rural areas.
Young_Owl99@reddit
Anything against Islam that became viral.
Anything radical (in a bad way) about Atatürk. Even calling him a good dictator sparked some debates at one point let alone his words and writings that openly against Islamic belief.
Anything that praise Kurds a little too much. Kurds became a political subject so much.
thatMrGecko@reddit
well, if I make a hilarious joke about an ottoman emperor and it goes viral, I may be jailed. how about that?
Young_Owl99@reddit
No you wouldn’t.
You may be cancelled on social media but there won’t be a legal action.
thatMrGecko@reddit
this literally happened yesterday, what are you talking about?
Young_Owl99@reddit
Really :) to whom for what ?
thatMrGecko@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/Turkey/comments/1sgnnq8/komedyen_tuba_ulu_son_g%C3%B6sterisinde_osmanl%C4%B1/
Young_Owl99@reddit
Oha bilmiyordum. Süleyman kim ya. Kutsal bir birey sanki.
HorrorsPersistSoDoI@reddit
Sultan Erdogan doesn't want you insulting other fellow sultans
CivxEng2@reddit
Unified Cyprus is better for Turkish Cypriots and Turkey. Mavi Vatan is not even a logical starting point for any negotiation.