Advice on handling toxic team member
Posted by shmiel8000@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 32 comments
Recently I switched jobs from Senior .NET engineer to solutions/software architect. My previous was a multinational billion dollar scale up where code quality and pace were key. It was a cloud native Saas platform. One of the key initiatives I worked on was transforming the monolith to modulith and later one extracting some modules to microservices.
I got contacted about half a year ago by my current employer (through a headhunter) for the role of software architect as they had started to transition from an on premise solution to a Saas solution. The project seemed interesting and because I already worked about 8 years in the scale up (and tbh because of the success and growrh of the company, the company became American which was detrimental for the culture) I felt it was time for a change. It also felt like a natural transition in roles.
I've been at the new company for about 4 months. I am working on several projects and I have two teams I need to guide technically. In one of those teams there is a senior engineer that is very toxic, and very rigid in his thinking.
when I joined, the director I report to warned me about him and the bad atmosphere in the team. The toxic one wanted my job but failed the technical assessments and his personality wasn't what the company wants to lead a team. He meddles in everything and basically throws a tantrum when he is not included in a decision, but when you ask him to make a decision it is not his role or above his pay grade. I have been at the company almost 4 months, he 10+ years.
About two weeks back, there was a meeting about starting the migration of a piece of functionality to the cloud. There are two modules, one can not live without another and they are basically the same. They started the architecture and technical analysis before I started. So during that meeting the architecture was discussed and all of a sudden Mr. Toxic talked about copy pasting domain models and business logic to a second application. I intervened and suggested a modulith with hard constraints and gave valid arguments, both technically, in terms of speed/ease of development and costs. The team followed my reasoning and I thought it was concluded. The discussion was good and took about an hour. I asked Mr. Toxic to put a summary in Confluence with his arguments why he was convinced separate applications were a better idea.
Yesterday there was a kick off meeting and I already felt when I walked into the room that the atmosphere was different. Mr. Toxic, as tech lead of that project, started by saying that he had several meetings with the team members and the product owner and that they had decided to move forward with two separate applications.
So he went behind my back like a snake to convince everyone of his idea and also urged the PO to make a decision by starting the project.
During that meeting I asked why I wasn't consulted but he diverted the question, I asked him where the documentation was with his arguments. He showed a word document with non arguments so wasn't prepared at all. Every question was answered with "We think...". When I looked at other team members, they didn't make eye contact.
The fact that another decision is made doesn't bother me, it is the sneaky kindergarten mentality, the political games that bother me. A lot. It is clear that there is a dynamic there that I can't change. The previous SA also left because he couldn't make an impact, now I understand why because the project has potential to be very impactful.
I am really conflicted. On one hand, I feel I can make an impact there. With team B, the collaboration is good and we are getting places already. On the other hand, I don't want to spend my days navigating ego's and being in conflict situation because of ego, not because of valid arguments.
Also, I can't imagine spending my days in meetings (I have on average 28 hours of meetings per week) and, that's an error in judgement on my part, I do miss to code.
I am contemplating to start looking for another job but I don't know if that is the right decision. There will be something somewhere else as well.
Hot-Mathematician865@reddit
Technical decisions in political environments need governance and sunlight. Since nobody reads documents may I suggest ADRs for individual decisions and PRFAQs for projects/products. That way everything is documented including the reasons and who made the decisions.
For people like you are dealing with, there is a great book called The Manager Pool with a number of management patterns in it. This person sounds like you need to apply the “Enough Rope” pattern.
shmiel8000@reddit (OP)
Thank you, I will look to order the book.
BoBoBearDev@reddit
I didn't read the whole thing. But I got the gist of it.
1) create meeting to solicit ideas from him and everyone on the open channel of the chat app and ping them. And send additional emails to make sure they are aware of the open discussion has taken place. You can even create a meeting to explain the goals and tell everyone who is interested to post the idea on the chat app.
2) give everyone 7 days to voice their ideas.
3) do not refute the idea. Just collect it.
4) present the pros and cons of each idea to your direct report.
5) announce the final decision.
6) if he still complains, collect his voice without any emotion. And relay this to your direct report.
GoonOfAllGoons@reddit
Gotta be honest, you sound like you're pushing a solution from up on high and not selling it to anyone.
Anyone with experience has dealt with the architect who lives in the clouds and has no idea or doesn't care about the real issues that would come up. That might not be you, but you're relatively new, and this guy isn't, and they know this guy.
Whether you want to play politics or not, it comes with the territory.
RastaBambi@reddit
Whether you like it or not, you've entered a new role and as a contractor you'll always be thrown in the deep end in (slightly) dysfunctional orgs.
Of course you get flown in to deal with exactly these kinds of problems because it is cheaper to pay for an external SA than doing a reorg that would address the systemic failures of the business and the train keeps chugging along.
My advice would be to use this as a way to level up your politics and if you have any ambition to stay in the SA role or move upwards you will have to learn to navigate these situations.
In my opinion you also have to be more strategic about how you make decisions and garner trust and goodwill from the people around you. Plus getting buy-in from teams is an art form you should have mastered as you progressed in your career, not label someone that disagrees with you as flat out toxic.
I'd also advise you learn the difference between "sell" and "tell", but be mindful of the fact that morale can be affected if you try to dictate solutions that people aren't on board with even if you think you're 100% right and have all the right arguments in the world. At the end of the day, although people pretend to be rational, we are emotional creatures so you have to learn to play that game.
Empanatacion@reddit
The architect role is like 75% diplomacy.
hiddenhare@reddit
Your description of "Mr. Toxic" would also match a slightly abrasive engineer who skilfully bypassed you because you were about to enforce a bad technical decision onto his team.
Could you explain why you virulently hate this guy, please? You haven't actually listed any reasons for that in your post, except for refusal to make decisions above his rank (passive-aggressive, but understandable) and building consensus against one of your decisions without explicitly telling you what he was doing (sneaky, but very understandable).
shmiel8000@reddit (OP)
I don't hate the guy at all, I won't let myself get consumed by that negativity. I also don't understand how you came to that conclusion tbh.
The thing is, I can validate my opinion with arguments and never stated that I was right. The original post also declares this. My point is that the way this was handled, by sneaking behind my back to rally the team against me, is a red flag for me. As I just started in the company, I fear that a great part of energy would go into constantly proven my point (regardless if I am right or wrong) vs someone who doesn't provide any researched arguments against my claims but uses tricks to undermine my opinion. Architecture is my responsibility, I should get consulted. I am s very approachable person and very open minded to discuss alternative points of view. But I wasn't consulted nor did he provide valid reasoning or proof to back his claims.
Could you please elaborate on why you say this behavior is understandable? Genuinly interested.
hiddenhare@reddit
The way you describe "backing up your opinion with arguments" is good-hearted, but a little naive. Please bear in mind that your arguments may simply be wrong, either because Mr Clever has better general knowledge than you, or because you're missing some local context (e.g. you may be ignorant of the skills and preferences of Mr Clever's team). You may also be acting in a politically clumsy way, much too eager to boss Mr Clever around, when you haven't yet given him any reason to trust or respect you.
He's close to your rank (he might actually be in charge of this decision?), he has a forceful and defensive personality, and he disagrees with your proposal. You had an hour to make your case, but you didn't change his mind. It seems his team either wasn't very convinced by your arguments, or they trust him more than they trust you.
Mr Clever is confident that you're making a serious mistake which would hurt the codebase, and so his goal is to prevent you from doing that. Giving you more time to talk will not achieve that goal; you've already made your case, he's judged it, and he doesn't like it. Instead, he simply arranged for your proposal to be rejected. He's probably going to get what he wants, and you aren't going to get what you want; he wins. In his opinion, he's just prevented a crisis which would have wasted months of time. Disrespecting you is a small price to pay for that, and as a bonus, it sends you a clear message "don't try to do this again".
Politically, the best strategy here would be to swallow your pride, and approach Mr Clever as though he's better than you (because he probably is, in many ways). Make him feel good, get him to share the knowledge he's hoarding, win his trust, and then slowly start pushing for change as an equal. Work with him.
smutje187@reddit
As simple as that sounds - there needs to be a conversation with Mr Toxic about roles and responsibilities, and those need to be documented and his behavior evaluated against.
If he doesn’t follow guidelines and cuts corners, who will be held accountable for that? If it’s you then you need to establish baselines of acceptable standards, or escalate that to his line manager.
Mountain_Giraffe_941@reddit
sounds like the office politics episode
Sad_Recording_9058@reddit
sounds like mr toxic needs a new hobby outside of workplace drama
shmiel8000@reddit (OP)
My job for the first year is to focus on technical decisions and team management. It is a very vague line. I already flagged his behavior to our common manager but they know about it and it seems to be "accepted"
itix@reddit
Would it be possible to get him transferred to some other team?
shmiel8000@reddit (OP)
I don't think so, we are already stretched thin. Also he has been working on this domain for a long time so replacing him will cause losing a lot of business logic knowledge
divorcingjack@reddit
I’m sorry to say, but in my experience, if the line manager is unwilling to get involved or acknowledge the problem, this won’t change. A good EM can address this, but it doesn’t sound like you have one.
dllimport@reddit
We also have someone on our team like that. He is valuable and people have been living his bullshit for 10 years on our team so they just keep doing it. But he actively makes issues and gate keeps everyone. He also contributes valuable code and experience but I know he is not the only one who is capable of that. He is the "tech lead" on our small team and leads noone. He also throws a fit if he isn't consulted. And he tears other people down to get things his way even if it's not actually a good idea.
There are other people out there who could be just as if not more valuable than him for his price tag and not have the extra problems of intentionally fucking things up. We work closely with another team on the same product and while the other team isn't a shining beacon or anything the culture between the two is very different. On one team you are listened to. On the other you are talked over, ignored, or undermined no matter the validity of what you're saying.
It's such trash and it's embarrassing that everyone just tolerated it because that's how he is. And if you call him out on something and back it up with evidence your manager tells you that you know how he is and you shouldn't do that because he's more interested in coddling this guy since he's the most competent person on the team. Well you're not going to get a lot of other comment people if you let this guy cockblock everyone on everything are you??
JCii@reddit
The most you can do is provide technical backup to the director; this is their issue as they own manage the humans. If they're hoping you can magically fix it, they want you to do the director's job without the director's pay. that's a trap.
Paste everything you wrote into Claude and ask for ways to discuss with your director. it will give you several. ask for subtle, direct, and somewhere in between.
Civil_Essay_7324@reddit
Only way to handle toxic members is to be like them in front of them
spez_eats_nazi_ass@reddit
yeah every place has or “had” that guy. It’s taken a lot of work to get mine to a safe position where he is not a code terrorist. Boss won’t get rid of him. And i’m kind of an asshole but this dude is something else. In a smaller area where it only takes a few decades to know everyone and when I mention him to others in the industry i usually get sighs and “im sorry man”. At a prior job we hired two employees that quit to work for us that he oversaw when he was in a managerial role that ran screaming from him. My favorite incident is how he commingled his state nat guard duties w corporate by keeping a few hundred mb of spreadsheets that contained pii of the entirety of the state’s militia members on his corporate laptop that he insisted staid at his desk because “im not paid enough to take it home”. Corporate had not made disk encryption a requirement yet. A crack head broke in and stole a ton of equipment including his laptop. And of course it was brushed under the rug.
Leopatto@reddit
Fire them. It's a business, not a daycare. Plenty of good senior engineers looking for work.
CodeToManagement@reddit
If you’re the architect setting technical direction you need to stop them and call it out right there
“Sorry but we decided not to go with two applications so I need to know firstly why you have planned to build two and why you didn’t consult me in any of the planning. My role is to set technical direction for this team and this isn’t a valid approach in my opinion - it was decided to do a single application so you need to go back to planning if that’s not what you’re ready to build”
Then you get on a call with his boss and call out that he’s derailing the project and the team and working around you. And that something needs to be done - preferably him being gone. Toxic team members bring the rest of the team down
shmiel8000@reddit (OP)
I think this is the only way to go and draw my conclusions based on the follow up actions from both Mr Toxic, the team and our manager
AirSuitable4041@reddit
sounds like you've had some frustrating encounters with it admins
Oakw00dy@reddit
As the SA, as far as the architecture is concerned, the puck stops at you. Since I assume you're not on Mr. Toxic's line of command, I'd recommend you have a discussion with your boss. Not to complain about Mr. Toxic but to clarify your responsibility as the SA. Your boss has then the option to either have your back and deal with Mr. Toxic or ignore you, in which case, draw your own conclusions.
shmiel8000@reddit (OP)
I tend to think I will need to draw my own conclusions. I will follow up on this and draw a line based on research, arguments and past experience. However, since they know how he negatively influences the atmosphere and team (and higher ups explicitly warned me about him week 1 in the job) and he is still there, they are afraid/unwilling to do something about it. Our common manager is responsible for three (small) departments but they are based in different parts of the country so he is not that much in the office where Mr Toxic is.
Ace-O-Matic@reddit
If understand your post correctly, he's the tech lead or in other terms the DRI on the project. In that case, it's his call to make regardless of seniority. If you think it's a serious mistake, go up the ladder over his head and make your case to org leadership.
If he's not the DRI on the project and you are, professionally tell him to fuck off. Inform everyone else you will not be going with his proposal. Not an "ask for an opinion", but "This is what we are doing, so that we are all clear". If he continues causing issues, speak with his manager and org leadership about removing him from the project.
If it not clear who is the a DRI, ask org leadership. If they cannot clarify then leave because that's a whole other level of corporate mismanagement.
shmiel8000@reddit (OP)
I will explicitly ask this and base my follow up actions on this.
belkh@reddit
if the senior engineer is like this with you I imagine it's even worse for team A, dude is a risk in terms of both project delivery and team culture, I really doubt he's mentoring anyone in any meaningful way or allowing them to grow, in fact they're likely looking to escape.
I don't understand how they're still around if they know they're a problem, even with worker protection, you can't just undermine supervisors, be uncooperative and continue to receive complaints from team members without a warning and then getting fired, conduct aside you can also point to their inability to really lead effectively as a senior engineer as well.
did you have a talk with his direct manager?
EdelinePenrose@reddit
how can you make sure that your suggestions are publicly recorded along with the team decisions and their impact?
unless you have management power over the toxic employee, not your job to manage them.
shmiel8000@reddit (OP)
After the first meeting, I wrote a report about the outcomes and the follow ups. This was sent to my higher ups and the team members.
Material-Smile7398@reddit
I feel your pain, I work with a Mr Toxic who does the exact same thing. I’d suggest approaching the director, or someone more senior to ascertain the levels of support you have for tackling this issue.
You won’t be able to effectively do your job if his behaviour goes unchecked and reasoning with him is going to be futile, these guys have all the tricks in the book.
If you have support from above, then I’d suggest being firm, these decisions are yours to make not his. If he can’t behave himself then start excluding him from meetings and progress without him.