What are the risks of using handheld radios during wartime?
Posted by BenefitWeekly6264@reddit | preppers | View on Reddit | 41 comments
I live in Taiwan, an island approximately 400 kilometers long from north to south, up to 145 kilometers wide from east to west, with an area of about 36,000 square kilometers. The central region has as many as 284 mountains over 3,000 meters, separating the east and west coasts. Most major cities are concentrated on the western side, with high population density and dense buildings.
Taiwan’s hypothetical adversary is the Chinese People’s Liberation Army, which has historically focused on rapid decisive operations as its main strategy for operations against Taiwan. Therefore, I am considering all risks associated with higher intensity attacks.
If a war breaks out, China may target infrastructure such as power and communications, potentially rendering mobile networks and the internet inoperable, interfering with normal radio operation, crippling power grids, or even deploying EMP attacks. If the continuity of the Chinese regime is threatened, they may disregard international law. During wartime, radio transmissions are likely to be triangulated and monitored, and in certain cases may even be suppressed or targeted at the source.
I am using an MTS 98X7VU handheld radio with a 10 watt output power, equipped with an RH795 telescopic antenna to support a wider frequency range and improve reception. I plan to have at least two units for family use, so that we can communicate separately if needed. In open areas, the effective range is about 10–15 kilometers, and in urban areas about 1–3 kilometers (I had tested). I have not yet tested it in mountainous.
I would like to ask a few questions:
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In a wartime environment, is there a risk of being triangulated, monitored, or jammed when using a handheld radio?
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With typical civilian equipment around 10 watts, does this power level significantly affect the likelihood of being detected?
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Are there recommended usage practices, such as call duration, frequency selection, or timing of use, to reduce risk?
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Regarding power, which has an advantage in prolonged power outage scenarios, replaceable battery units or rechargeable units?
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Under what conditions or stages of a war would it be advisable to rely on radios as a communication method?
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I hope to receive advice from a practical or experience based perspective. Thank you all.
I would appreciate any practical advice or real world insights. Thank you
Chainsawsas70@reddit
In the event of a war situation you would be better off using a Bluetooth mesh network some of them run open link so you send the message out and it "Hops" from device to device until it reaches the intended recipient who will then be able to read the message (without the same number and app it's encrypted pretty heavily... But NOTHING is perfect.)
418Miner@reddit
the cellphone controlling the mesh unit can be tracked at a root level. mesh networks, with some exceptions like Reticulum, have limited range.
Chainsawsas70@reddit
True, But the way the system works the only thing that would appear is that the phone is On.. Because everything else is done via Bluetooth which is very short range so unless someone was standing within a few meters of your phone it wouldn't be detected like a full broadcast signal from a phone call etc. Again nothing is perfect but it's definitely an alternative 🤷
418Miner@reddit
the phone can be triangulated from cell towers. unless the phone is on Airplane mode it pings the tower every few seconds. very easily tracked.
quinn943@reddit
A phone that's on and trackable is still able to be hit with artillery. That's of course not even considering the use of an emp attack or hitting the power grid before hand so that such signals stand out more.
Tired_Pentester@reddit
Ask yourself this.. who do you actual need to talk to in a warzone as a civilian? What are you going to talk about? If it's not actually important, don't transmit.
The main benefit of the radio is that you can listen.
EffinBob@reddit
Are you important enough to be triangulated? If so, you have likely already been supplied with a frequency hopping digital, encrypted radio to make it less likely that will happen. If not, there will be thousands and thousands of people using radio, and while some may be targeted to prove a point (that your new masters don't want you using radio) it still isn't likely you'll be one of them.
The most important thing is this scenario is to have a plan that doesn't require radio, like an agreed upon meeting point and/or a secure location to head to, among other things.
Bottom line, if you don't want to be found, don't use radio.
regjoe13@reddit
You need to look at Ukraine experiences, recommendations for civilians in war zones, there should be a lot online by now.
In general, it depends what you would do with it.
One one hand, people were detained for as much as google map printouts. Smartphones confiscated, and it was recommended to care a simplest phone you can find with you. If you caught wit a handheld radio, you would be suspected being artillery spotter, detained, questioned and before all of that possibly bitten up by locals. Basically, you don't want anything that may even remotely suggest you are not a civilian.
On the other hand, a person I talk to back there is a ham radio operator and his antenna did not created any problems even when his village was occupied by Russians.
Nathan-Stubblefield@reddit
Maybe do short essential messages from unpopulated random locations away from home. Numerous Russians in Ukraine got blast damage from some location where they used a phone. Triangulation of radio location might be pretty accurate.
Mynplus1throwaway@reddit
1/2/3 are all answered by looking into 'fox hunting'
4 they can be both rechargable and replaceable.
I use my radio for weather. It's faster, but not a great everyday thing as you have to tend to it.
I would also consider looking into mesh networks like meshtastic etc
418Miner@reddit
if you use a cellphone as the head unit the cellphone can be tracked at a root level. the user can’t “turn it off.”
smsff2@reddit
I don’t think invaders can target every single handheld radio in the area.
dittybopper_05H@reddit
Yes, they can. They could do it in the 1980's when I was in the signals intelligence business, and it's much easier to do it now, with fewer personnel.
Little-Carpenter4443@reddit
Although I totally agree with you I’m think of all the noise that would make it harder if not impossible. Like baby monitors, refrigerators, toy cars, garage openers, how could they determine what was legit? They would be targeting everyone
dittybopper_05H@reddit
It's pretty easy to figure them out: All of those have different bands that they operate on.
Signals intelligence agencies are aware of all of the different kinds of transmissions out there. It's literally their job. They can actively filter out waveforms that they know aren't important (though toy cars might be a problem, because you can strap a grenade to them).
They can ignore frequencies that are commonly used for baby monitors and the like. Remember, these all have defined ranges. Baby monitors will always be on certain frequencies.
Same with garage openers, etc.
Little-Carpenter4443@reddit
So my point is why not use those things? There’s got to be so much interference out there. You can probably hide yourself as a chain of baby monitors for communication. But I’m sure they can figure that out too. If they had to I just would be amazed to see the amount of interference you would get from a large city when it comes to all of devices that transmit.
LurkersUniteAgain@reddit
the island is tiny to be fair, they dont have to target every single one they just have to detect where theres a high density of them
Ryan_e3p@reddit
Phew. Just question #3 alone has a LOT to unpack. I'll keep the answer brief enough to give a general idea, and this is nowhere near all-inclusive for an answer.
Keep comms short. You're not going to have a "dialogue" over the air. Use preselected frequencies and conditions where they'll be used (like, if freq A doesn't work, move to Freq B, if still no contact, move to Freq C at X time, Freq D at Y time, etc). Don't use real names for locations (meaning, have difficult-to-decipher location codes, instead of just saying "meet me at the corner of 5th and main by the convenience store"). Don't use real names or do that movie thing where you give each other super-cool sounding nicknames. It's dumb and will only attract attention. Keep check ins brief and to expected times (but also, "randomize" the times so if someone does want to triangulate, they won't know to be listening at the top of every hour). Have conditions where radio silence can/should be broken.
What frequencies you use will depend on your equipment, if they are commonly used in the local area, etc.
StarlightLifter@reddit
Keep in mind that using code like this while we are still in the now times is illegal if you’re on HAM.
Bloodless10@reddit
You can’t use code words? I know encryption is not allowed, but that seems excessive.
Mr_E_Monkey@reddit
It does, and it seems like if you did it right (not to encourage illegal activities, of course!), it would be hard to prove. I mean, maybe I really AM talking about birds or stargazing or whatever.
I suppose, too, that in the event of an invasion, that legality is probably the least of one's worries. 🤷🏻♂️
dittybopper_05H@reddit
No, you can't, not in the US.
§ 97.113 Prohibited transmissions.
(a) No amateur station shall transmit:
...
(4) Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided elsewhere in this section; communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning, except as otherwise provided herein; obscene or indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals or identification.
There is a very narrow exception for controlling satellites, which is that "except as otherwise provided herein".
The idea of amateur radio isn't to provide a secure means of communication. There are services for that.
clementineford@reddit
No. Encryption is illegal but use of codes isn't.
Also this guy is in Taiwan, so FCC rules are irrelevant.
dittybopper_05H@reddit
In the US anything intended to obscure the meaning of a communication is forbidden, except under very limited circumstances:
§ 97.113 Prohibited transmissions.
(a) No amateur station shall transmit:
...
(4) Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided elsewhere in this section; communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning, except as otherwise provided herein; obscene or indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals or identification.
The use of Q and Z codes don't count because they are common, published, and the intent isn't to obscure the meaning.
Also, it is illegal under Taiwanese amateur radio regulations:
https://ncclaw.ncc.gov.tw/EngLawContent.aspx?id=20032
Article 41 Any of the following acts shall be prohibited from operating amateur station by the amateur operator:
...
7. Communications utilizing cipher or cryptogram not approved by the competent authority;
ThirdHoleHank92@reddit
Taiwan may have different laws concerning this
Ryan_e3p@reddit
Does Taiwan utilize US radio use regulations?
BallsOutKrunked@reddit
I think this is really well done. Short comms, don't stay put if you can avoid it, switch frequencies. Use the least power necessary.
Pull all that off and you're pretty hard to find.
dittybopper_05H@reddit
I see that this radio is capable of transmitting at 10, 5, and 1 watt.
I would set the default power to 1 watt. That will give you much longer battery life, and it still allows you to go to 5 or 10 watts if necessary.
But the higher power doesn't increase your range as much as you might think it would between radios. But it does make direction finding your signal easier. And from farther away.
The People's Liberation Army Air Force has 14 Shaanxi Y-8, 5 Shaanxi Y-9, and 4 Tupelov Tu-154 signals intelligence aircraft for a total of 23 SIGINT aircraft. The People's Liberation Army Navy Air Force has another 17 SIGINT aircraft.
Taiwan is only about 380 kilometers long. They could maintain several SIGINT aircraft up for 24/7 listening for signals, and they almost certainly will for a couple of different reasons:
To try to locate ROC military forces. This will be their primary focus, at least initially.
Locate any militia type units who might not be under formal control but will engage in guerilla warfare. This could include people in "stay behind" organizations.
Locate any potential informants/"spies" looking to notify 1 or 2 of PLA forces. These could be considered akin to the "coast watchers" of WWII. Whether formally organized or ad hoc.
To listen for and tamp down on any malcontents that might spread what they would call "misinformation". This is a catch-all category, and probably the lowest priority. And you might not consider it important, or that you're doing that, but even something as innocuous as telling a family member to avoid a certain intersection because it's blocked by debris could be construed as spreading misinformation.
MetaPhalanges@reddit
How are you able to know that?
Adorable-Can-2856@reddit
Odds are it will just be jammed
UP-North617@reddit
Maybe cross post this on a HAM radio sub Reddit?
dittybopper_05H@reddit
Please don't. They don't allow this kind of topic, and I completely understand why: I'm an avid ham myself.
I don't mind myself, but amateur radio is a hobby.
dittybopper_05H@reddit
OK, so for whoever downvoted this, here's the rule in r/amateurradio:
10 No posts or comments on US politics, global politics, military, paramil or militia-related topics
This is a subreddit dedicated to the hobby of amateur radio. Unless a topic is directly related to amateur radio, posts or comments that are politically motivated will not be allowed. Allowed political topics are limited to regulatory actions (FCC, Ofcom, etc.) or other government actions that directly affect amateur radio.
This is definitely a global politics and military related thread.
You might get away with it in r/HamRadio, because it doesn't explicitly ban this kind of discussion, but they need to be on topic about amateur radio, and legal (transmitting in an active war zone will probably be illegal), and they actually say "Mods have final say".
LurkersUniteAgain@reddit
i mean this does directly relate to amateur radio
dittybopper_05H@reddit
No it really doesn't because once you have war involved, amateur radio is pretty much universally shut down. It becomes illegal to transmit. And generally inadvisable. I've got a bunch of experience operating a portable radio station, and experience intercepting radio stations. I could probably get away with it for a while, because I know a bunch of the tricks of the trade, but eventually I'd be caught.
I think it's a decent topic of discussion, and I think my posts here show that: I've put my thoughts and actual practical experience both as a former SIGINT professional and as an avid ham into this thread.
I'm telling you, I know it's not going to be allowed in either subreddit. And I understand why.
jakethewhitedog@reddit
As a ham, that's a stupid rule.
wanderingpeddlar@reddit
Hell yes there are more then a few dead russians (read hundreds) that thought using a Baofeng for comms was a good idea. The Ukrainians nailed them and their squad by triangulating their signal and pounding the entire area around that signal on the very correct bet the dumbass in question was not alone.
The Ukrainians found it easy to track when they were talking at 2.5 watts
Not as far as triangulation goes. The moment you press the talk button they got you.
whatIfindinterestng@reddit
If you're that worried about being triangulated you could place a repater on a hill next to you and transmit to it with very small power. They will triangulate the repeater and if it gets blown up you might turn your radio off.
WhereDidAllTheSnowGo@reddit
It completely depends on the context
Radio emissions from a place with any military significance? Emission similar to anything military?
Yes, instant target thats then put on some priority list, as seen in Ukraine
No, it’s irrelevant
Powerman4774@reddit
Comms is a layered and tiered system.
There’s so much to consider for what you need to communicate, the distances, and
On a basic level If it emits EMF it can be found by opfor, if they’re looking for it.
dittybopper_05H@reddit
Yes, absolutely, and there are dedicated troops whose job is to do specifically that.
In general, you want to use the lowest power necessary to make your communication. This means the direction finding assets have to be closer to you in order to be able to hear you well enough to get a decent signal.
I'll post a link below to an older US Army training manual, but the idea is you want to be on the air as little as possible, and you want to move after you communicated.
You probably want both.
Probably very, very few. You do *NOT* want to be targeted because you're using a radio. I have what I call "ditty's second dictum": "If you radiate, you can be located. If you can be located, you can be killed".
The Radio Direction Finding Threat:
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA128039.pdf
That's an older manual, from 1983, but the basics haven't changed. Transmit as little as possible, and only when absolutely necessary, and "unass the AO" immediately after if possible.