Who can we really trust?
Posted by HowIsDigit8888@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 141 comments
For the record, Artix and Devuan have both long been among the most privacy-respecting distros, and they've both already announced they will remove any age verification stuff.
https://www.devuan.org
https://artixlinux.org
FoxFXMD@reddit
Honestly it's not that big of a deal. It sets a bad precedent but the law itself is only for one city in one country.
0riginal-Syn@reddit
Uhm no, it is also in an entire country, Brazil which has a worse version of the law that has teeth against developers. Other countries including some in Europe, are looking into passing these laws.
zeruch@reddit
It's for anyone that wants to operate a business in one state. That state also happens to be the 4th largest economy on the planet, and where the largest concentration of venture capital and technology companies converge.
S7relok@reddit
The problem is taken with the wrong side. Totally legit open source would not have to comply with stupid laws if only USA didn't became absolutely dumb when it comes to voting.
Also, why would I wipe my working install with ideological projects with the only change to default is a way less tested init than the industry standard?
laffer1@reddit
Why do you think this is only a US problem? What about Brazil? The eu? UK?
S7relok@reddit
Actually there's only USA california who enforces it
laffer1@reddit
Brazil is already active
jermygod@reddit
In what way? Did they send lawsuit against distro that doesn't comply?
0riginal-Syn@reddit
They are far worse than the California law. MidnightBSD is complying now with them as well. While the California law is a bad precedent that should not be allowed, it is much less intrusive than Brazil's law and what others are trying to do.
laffer1@reddit
They have a list of companies/distros that they are monitoring for infractions already. ubuntu is on the list.
MelioraXI@reddit
AFIK we don't have any of this in the EU (yet)?
laffer1@reddit
it's already being proposed
https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-age-verification
MelioraXI@reddit
I see, so if I don't misread the post (i don't really look into Germany cause I don't live there, so the EU is more interesting since it can be enforced on the members), it seem to (for now) be a platform based verification, not OS. So I guess in the extension it means social media and apps are enforced to implement something like Discord has/is by next year?
laffer1@reddit
They do ID checks by using the app in the EU, but the OS will have to cache the validation which means it still knows a rough age for you.
The details of how the flow works are less important than the fact that a single app that can track what you're authorizing on is present.
LvS@reddit
Did Devuan and Artix submit testimony?
natermer@reddit
Did Reddit file a objection?
Did GNU?
Did Linus Torvalds?
Did YOU?
WHO CAN WE TRUST?!?!?!??!!!!!
/s
Davoomer@reddit
Linus Torvalds hurts… Did he said something? I really want to know and believe he is on our side…
TerribleReason4195@reddit
I do not think Linus cares, he probably got other stuff to do.
2rad0@reddit
In Fredo we trust
TerribleReason4195@reddit
I trust that clean penguin.
Greenlit_Hightower@reddit
I have switched from CachyOS to Artix on one of my machines... Artix feels, lighter? I guess those who said rhat SystemD was massive bloat anyway weren't wrong.
Though I believe I will have to go all in on Gentoo (which I run on my main machine) or Linux from Scratch in the future, as I can pretty much tell that every distro with prebuilt binaries will cave ro age verification under the threat of massive fines.
TerribleReason4195@reddit
Void is a good options too.
HowIsDigit8888@reddit (OP)
I am not ready for the Gentoo future, I'll have to get better at linux
Greenlit_Hightower@reddit
They will all cave without exception as they are fined into oblivion. If you (realistically) expect developers not to take the hit for you, better look into compiling stuff yourself haha...
Correctthecorrectors@reddit
i mean this has to go to court first. these laws are probably unconstitutional. We can’t say for certain they will be fined into oblivion until a judge says that it’s legal.
HowIsDigit8888@reddit (OP)
Hope you're wrong in the first sentence but I know your second sentence is right either way 👍
steve09089@reddit
Probably placebo, or benefits of fresh install.
There’s benchmarking by Artix comparing to Arch with systemd and there’s the barest amount of difference in boot or memory usage, nothing that should be perceivable, and no difference in CPU usage.
Apprehensive_Milk520@reddit
I think there needs to be clarification regarding the hardware upon which one is running systemd. For the fortunate, with "modern" hardware, if systemd is not a discernible ball and chain, then that's why - shiny new system. Try running old an old computer with a systemd free distro (my hardware is ten years old at least) and you will immediately see how fast and responsive a systemd free system is. brings back fond memories. I can say as a long time Arch who recently jumped ship - there was more than just systemd that annoyed me about Arch. Arch started getting sloppy the past few years - that's just my opinion, though. New hardware would be really nice, but I like to eat so would rather buy groceries. I think much of the perceived "whining" from users about systemd is that they are old enough to recall a lightning fast GNU/Linux before systemd came on the scene. Super fast and with what would now be considered antiquated hardware. Those were the days... lol...
Greenlit_Hightower@reddit
Yeah who knows, I am just saying that the experience feels smoother, and no, my CachyOS install was pretty vanilla, I switched away from it pretty quickly again.
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
You believe it is smoother without actually benchmarking it. People who know what they are doing don’t depend on “feels.” They measure.
Greenlit_Hightower@reddit
Some people seem personally offended as I merely report an observation or side note. 😂
I have just learned that not using SystemD is considered a thought crime here or something, what a childish community.
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
No, the fact that you haven’t actually observed anything is annoying. I’m not offended, you’re just making shit up.
Greenlit_Hightower@reddit
At this point I just yawn, you know. I merely reported an observation. Not a doctoral thesis, and not a scientific measurement.
Can we please end it here? You are wasting my time, feel free to disengage.
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
You’re wasting everyone’s time.
Greenlit_Hightower@reddit
No one forced you to engage.
rg-atte@reddit
More like making dumb shit up is frowned upon. Come back with evidence and we'll talk again.
Greenlit_Hightower@reddit
No, these people are personally offended as I report an observation, this is childish by definition. I never said that this is a scientific measurement that I have just conducted, please touch some grass. They are not beating the "nerd sitting in mom's basement" allegation if they get worked up over something like using or not using SystemD.
Wonderful-Citron-678@reddit
I can't believe r/linux is still full of people ranting about systemd. No switching an entire OS and it "feeling lighter" has nothing to do with systemd lol. If you don't like the tools fine but don't be a moron.
AWonderingWizard@reddit
Since you deleted your other comment, people who don't use systemd talk about it so much because they are often reminded that they don't have it because there exists so many dependencies that have to be dealt with if you don't use it.
Greenlit_Hightower@reddit
Depends on what you do with it I guess, I have yet to run into something that does not work or where I had to find a workaround. I didn't realize that I have in fact sacrificed some holy cow by not using SystemD, some people seem personally offended over this, seriously what kind of children are writing here...
AWonderingWizard@reddit
As an example, do you use elogind? You yourself may have not had to deal with finding workarounds, but actually the issues surrounding hard dependencies on SystemD have been less apparent due to people having to deal with it for a long while now.
Greenlit_Hightower@reddit
Is this r/systemd or r/linux, I wonder? 😂
Wonderful-Citron-678@reddit
Just don't use it, nobody cares. You literally wouldn't notice it existing or not.
Greenlit_Hightower@reddit
Thank you Mr. Thought Police for your input, that I did never care about nor asked for.
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
All you’re doing with this is demonstrating that you have no use for a dependency aware service manager. Bloat isn’t bloat if it’s useful.
Ok-Winner-6589@reddit
Linux is a kernel, It isn't affected
FSF (or GNU) develops OS components. But not OS themselves.
OSI just promoves Open Source
What are they suppose to do? This has nothing to do with licensing neither with kernels.
Políticians are supposed to do something, not the Linux Foundation
Distros try to do something because they are being affected.
throwaway234f32423df@reddit
but 2027 is still going to be the year of GNU/HURD right?
TerribleReason4195@reddit
I mean it is bow tested on actual hardware and it works on some.
Ok-Winner-6589@reddit
Sorry bro 😟
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
OSI is actually the legal entity that open source operating systems "do business" in a legal sense. It's really the only entity that can be fined for most community linux distros.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
It is still very relevant to the foundation.
Commentary and representation is important.
Jumpy-Dinner-5001@reddit
It's not.
Why would it?
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
You don't think helping to ensure open source stays free from corporate control isn't important?
Jumpy-Dinner-5001@reddit
It says nothing about corporate control.
How did they react to your rejection?
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
If you don't see movements and actions in the Foss community as a move by corporate interests to weaken Foss for a death blow.... You're probably helping on the corporate side.
Jumpy-Dinner-5001@reddit
That's nonsense and doesn't answer my question
Ok-Winner-6589@reddit
Not really.
Google doesn't care so Android isn't affected
And servers won't be affected.
And the kernel has nothing to implement. Probably desktops or the init system would implement it. But the kernel? Why should It?
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
Because it should comment on the principles of open source.
RoomyRoots@reddit
The "principles" are oriented to the community and not the legal system. The real problem is that their goverment and their constituents didn't manifest themselves against it.
It's a bad precedent, but it doesn't change FOSS at all.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
Well there is a bit of the rub.
The money motivator is big here.
But corporate power thinks this is the right time for a take over to monopolize compute.
It is important to call it out. And to act.
Ok-Winner-6589@reddit
Not really. And Torvalds doesn't care at all about users freedoms neither privacy. He cares about efficiency and security on the kernel. Thats all. It would be weird he just did something
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
That's why he just got woo-ed and went on a farewell tour JUST before all this happened.
That doesn't mean others can't or won't protect open source.
iaacornus@reddit
If you are so bothered by this why don’t you run as board member of the foundation and change its mission not ask it to do something that’s not in its job description?
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
I don't need to run as a board member. I can expect things as part of the supportive public.
Why does it hurt you so bad liberal and democracy in compute should be respected?
InitialAd3323@reddit
The FSF has always advocated for freedom in computing along with privacy, so they should care about a law that requires you to identify yourself to use software as you please
Ok-Winner-6589@reddit
They go against closed source and promove OS licenses. Not sure if they said anything pro privacy
shleebs@reddit
Bad take
Infinity-of-Thoughts@reddit
Saying bad taking without following up with anything substantial, and relevant to why it is.. Is a really bad take.
TerribleReason4195@reddit
We can trust the FSF. It is the only foundation I can truly trust.
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
What the hell is the FSF or SFC going to do? Their purpose is to promote and enforce free software licensing.
The EFF is in a much better position to handle this. They have the lawyers with the proper experience and knowledge.
Zathrus1@reddit
And note the EFF isn’t on the list.
I don’t know if they filed a brief on it, or lobbied, and they’re a shadow of what they used to be, but at least this is firmly in their wheelhouse. Unlike all the others.
do-un-to@reddit
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=fpas&q=eff+age+verification
Age Verification and Age Gating: Resource Hub
What makes you say that?
Anyway, when was the last time you tossed them a fiver?
Zathrus1@reddit
Supported EFF for years, but recently my money has gone elsewhere.
And I say that because I remember how active the EFF was in the mid 90s to early 00s, and I simply haven’t seen it as much in the recent past. I know they’re still fighting the good fight, but the public advocacy doesn’t seem to be there anymore.
laffer1@reddit
The EFF and FSF both have lawyers that can explain the responsibilities for distros and developers with all the different laws. Even clarify on conflict with gpl and banning regions would be nice from fsf.
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
The laws we're talking about are so vague that it makes it difficult to offer legal advice without any case law. You don't get that kind of case law until well after the law is implemented.
The EFF has been busy writing amicus briefs and laying out their plans on challenging these laws based on the First Amendment rights of minors. Such a challenge cannot actually commence until the law is in effect. You need affected parties and parties cannot be affected by a law that isn't currently being enforced.
https://cdt.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/08/2025-08-18-CA-Age-Appropriate-Design-Code-Act-CDT-Amicus-Brief.pdf
laffer1@reddit
It’s not easy for distros either. The fines are huge in some jurisdictions. None of us have 10 million laying around to cover Brazil for instance
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
I'm not denying that. I'm just explaining that the EFF plans on challenging the laws. TBH out of all the orgs listed, the OSI is the organization that needs to figure this shit out. They would be the ones getting fined for Debian, Fedora, Arch, etc.
Mars_Fox@reddit
i’m genuinely flabbergasted how many privacy-indifferent cucks have commented here. ‘Well what do you expect them to do?’ How about issuing any kind of assertive statement condemning what’s now happening in California and the world in general?
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
Its all part of the effort for them.
Wonderful-Citron-678@reddit
The Linux Foundation exists for corporations to collaborate, it has nothing to do with user rights/privacy/advocacy.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
I disagree.
They are a place where people look to.
They should be commenting and advocating for the principles of open source.
JacksGallbladder@reddit
You can disagree about what that organization is, but you're just projecting what you want it to be, which it isnt.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
I am definitely projecting what I want this body to do. And what I think it should do.
And I'm here in this forum - like you are - to push what I think this (and other bodies and orgs) should do to stand up for Foss.
You're clearly just on the other side.
JacksGallbladder@reddit
Its fine to want the linux foundation to advocate for privacy rights. But that isnt what it exists to do, and you can't just "disagree" with that reality lol.
What you want it to do is not what it was designed to do and that isnt something you can disagree with. Its a commercial consortium. User privacy rights activism comes from other places.
This is not a case of "being on the other side" lol. You just want a foundation with "linux" in its name to advocate for user privacy rights because it has linux in its name. They arent a FOSS advocacy group. They are an industry consortium.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
Activism comes from where ever.
That's why it is called activism.
They are in a unique position to advocate for Foss principles. And this is a critical time.
They would not be risking a business model either.
And as an industry consortium, they should be consorting to keep compute free.
JacksGallbladder@reddit
This is just an idealistic unreality.
Industry doesn't care about the use case you want it to. Its not their wheelhouse.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
That doesn't make it okay.
And that doesn't mean it isn't worth it to speak out against that.
What is your stake in this game?
JacksGallbladder@reddit
It doesn't make it not okay either.
Im speaking out against being outraged that an entity whos mission has nothing to do with this isnt getting involved with it.
The stake is just understanding reality. There is no purpose pressuring a body to do something entirely unrelated to its objectives because its name has the word "Linux" in it.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
This is what they call a "classic gaslight".
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
JacksGallbladder@reddit
And that is why no one is taking your argument seriously
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
What gives that impression ?
JacksGallbladder@reddit
The fact that every person in these comment chains is directly disagreeing with you.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
Its pretty much just you and one other guy.
Which it would seem by the post topic, you guys came her for this.
JacksGallbladder@reddit
I love that you think I have an ulterior motive for butting up against your stance.
Feel free to scroll the entire thread and note that almost everyone is saying exactly what I am lol.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
I think you motive is pretty clear.
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
This has nothing to do with open source or free software. Those things are not synonymous with privacy advocacy. There are different orgs that handle it with specialized legal expertise, like the EFF.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
Liberty and democracy are very basic principles to open source.
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
They really aren’t within the scope. In fact, a lot of open source project leads, including Linus Torvalds, have been talked about as “benevolent dictators for life” since the 90s.
We do not vote on the code that makes it into the Linux kernel. It’s largely unnecessary due to how the licensing work. You can choose to change what code winds up in your own kernel(s).
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
So corporate take over of compute is a good thing?
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
That’s not what I said, no.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
What's your take on the subject?
You don't think organizations like this don't have a moral authority to speak on these issues?
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
The “corporate takeover of compute” has almost nothing to do with the subject at hand. It’s primarily related hyper-scalers leveraging their deep pockets to eat into the consumer hardware market, not software licenses or age verification laws.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
That is pulling away from the topic pretty hard there.
Corporate take over of compute is exactly where these changes are headed.
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
You're going to need to explain yourself, preferably citing primary sources.
Things can get shitty in two different ways. Many pushes for age verification/assurance are actually pretty hostile to tech corporations' business model.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
Pushing for age verification and invasive and violating code protocols is actually very beneficial to the business models of most tech companies.
If it were the companies openly pushing for this, then yes, that would be extremely bad for their business models.
ENORMOUSLY more so, if foss alternatives exist. Which, right now they do.
If government mashes out a fever dream rendition of something that looks like some kind of intention for something .. Children...
Then yeah. That isn't that bad for the business model. In fact they get to sit back and say "see, you're the ones that wanted this".
AnsibleAnswers@reddit
Ok, Sherlock.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
Until next time, cutie.
WolvenSpectre2@reddit
Not Exactly.
The OSI's Principles : The closest that comes is 5 and 6, and they have nothing to do with Democracy or Liberty.
The FSF is more about liberty, but they advocate for free software, both free as in Freedom and free as in Beer. They offer people making Free Software resources and advocate when they feel that laws are going to impinge on their form of either of the two freedoms. But they do not have any Democratic asperations and only meet challenges to the GPLs.
The SFC's Principles are around Community Enforcement of Copyleft/GPL'ed Software, and the software/software creator's creation of the 2 types of free software, and thus defend users rights to use free software under the GPL. Nothing about Democracy here and they are enforcing freedom of licences and that is it.
And as stated previously, The Linux Foundation, is for the corporate and business side of FOSS Development, and less about legal advocacy, although it has a code of ethics that is anti-discriminatory. They may even have advocated for the law depending on how it was presented to them. They are more about the freedom of the corporate user because that is their lane.
An argument that these could only exist in democracies, but there is no guaranty that they would be allowed to exist in democracies. The whole reason for FOSS is that companies were at the level that they could compel the government to treat their products as special top secret snowflakes and thus treat users like hardened criminals in the worst of cases. That all happened in a democracy as well.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
They are in a position for effective advocacy. And I think they should be doing just that.
ringsig@reddit
It does, though. It's not just the privacy argument. The law is a limit on what software open-source developers can release.
Jumpy-Dinner-5001@reddit
Why don't you do it then?
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
I'm doing it right here.
Where would you like to see compute go in the future?
Jumpy-Dinner-5001@reddit
Where? Where is your objection to the legislators?
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
Expressing what I think should happen here.
What do you think the future of compute should look like?
Jumpy-Dinner-5001@reddit
No, you just want to cry and complain but definitely do anything about it yourself?
Quite telling.
What do you want to hear from me?
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
Now you're just trolling. What precedes the question mark is clear.
Jumpy-Dinner-5001@reddit
No, it doesn’t.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
CO leak?
KittensInc@reddit
Yes, that is what you want it to be. But that's not what it currently is.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
I mean its kind of their basic function.
But your words.... They make me feel so small and ineffective.
What's a boy to do?
MatchingTurret@reddit
Says who? This is how they describe themselves:
Ignore the fluff, and it's a industry consortium to develop tech. Nothing more, nothing less.
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
Its a public facing body. There would be nothing wrong with them standing up in defense of open source principles.
DramaticProtogen@reddit
artix is chud linux
Correctthecorrectors@reddit
what do you expect. As long as the people advocating for it have a D next to their name everyone throws their hands in the air and pretends everything is alright.
GreenSouth3@reddit
remember: the lobbyists write all of the Bills ~
grathontolarsdatarod@reddit
It would be nice to have the names of those consulting companies
GreenSouth3@reddit
indubitably
NightH4nter@reddit
neither artix nor devuan have capacity to maintain their forks, so, they'll probably just drop the packages altogether, like artix did with gnome
DigitalChrono@reddit
Can't say. However with this topic I'm sticking with distros who are implementing. Not because of trust and not because I fully agree with it. I have a lot of concerns about this topic and I also see the pro side of it as well. My concern is distros that don't follow through, high chance at some point they won't install in states that will eventually require the verification so I won't invest time and use in distros that protest because I can't trust their tech will always be able to be used, at least as of now. Time will tell.
Marce7a@reddit
Seems to be work for EFF not these...
Maybe foss organizations can be connected to this law by burdening foss developers with complying with irrelevant laws.
satsugene@reddit
This is normal.
NFPs not flush with cash or strongly involved in the legal landscape (say versus an organization intended to change a bad law or shift public policy, some of which funded by speculative industry wanting to open new markets or expand into currently unviable or illegal products) aren’t monitoring 51+ legislatures in the US and many more across the globe.
I’m involved with one that is heavily legally involved on another issue and it is difficult and expensive to monitor them all, lobby in as many as necessary (sometimes a few, sometimes over half of states in a given session), and engage consumers to contact the relevant legislators which changes depending on where it is in committee or in the process, which can be a 40-50 biannual session (like TX) or a two year drawn out affair (like CA).
Language changes in bills and can be missed depending what terms you look for, even if working very diligently to catch them all on a given issue.
I’m in California and didn’t know this bill was going through. It isn’t my “top” issue of concern but I’d have submitted a letter of opposition if I’d known because of the open source issues.
I wouldn’t take it to mean support or opposition by the organizations or take it that they aren’t capable, or weren’t acting in interest of consumers during the process.
I do think what CA is doing is trying to “short circuit” those advocating for worse age verification laws that force consumers on a site-by-site/app-by-app basis to submit personally identifiable information to some of the least trustworthy entities (data brokers) to verify age like some states are putting forward, some of which wouldn’t be in compliance with CA privacy laws that broadly intend to force brokers to delete information about CA residents starting very soon.
Personally I don’t like or approve either approach, but other than the OSS issues it is “less bad” than other US state (and UK) schemes.
laffer1@reddit
I get they might not be able to fight the laws but it would be helpful to put out guidance on the laws for projects. I run a small bsd project and it’s been hard for me to to wrap my head around all the different laws and issues. Even having a few of them done would be helpful.
A lot of small projects can’t afford lawyers to review this stuff.
satsugene@reddit
Absolutely. Folks building stuff or selling stuff don’t have the time or the means to follow every one of these proposals and full-court press every one of them. Especially for internet or software related things that cross state lines compared to say a midsized insurance agent who is heavily involved in their state but has no business dealings outside of it, so doesn’t have much involvement with a bad bill in a state across the country even if they think those proposals would suck for their industry or the consumers who patronize it.
Often it is large industry associations like “National Association of Potato Producers” or whatever funded by related business and consumers who care about their products so they can try to shape the legal landscape toward what is beneficial for the industry and do PR as a whole.
It makes it easier if legislators get one unified “message” from an industry the members can agree on than a bunch of different incompatible ones from the major players (or a bunch of incompatible ones from opponents).
daHaus@reddit
The user and group name API can already be used for what they want as is, the only question is if people will make the effort to comply. If people don't want to comply they could always lie to the OS anyway so there's nothing more to be done
Spare-Good-5372@reddit
God damn
Jumpy-Dinner-5001@reddit
What exactly should they have done? What do you expect?
dirtsnort@reddit
The laws generally have to do with application distribution, not necessarily the OS itself. That isn’t universal but that may explain the lack of responses from them.
Shished@reddit
Those orgs does not really care about the desktop Linux stuff.
What about the representatives of Linux distros? Were they present there?
fellipec@reddit
TRUST NO ONE
PerkyPangolin@reddit
What is your point?
Farados55@reddit
I think they're implying those orgs don't really care about AB 1043 despite claiming values that go against it.