Would this violate 61.113?
Posted by 100LLTastesYummy@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 19 comments
Hi everyone,
I am a currently a student pilot working towards my PPL and have a question regarding 14 CFR § 61.113. I asked a few instructors and we had some mixed answers, so I'm curious what everyone here thinks as well. First, a little bit of background:
My office is offering a new employee perk that they are calling a one-day travel grant. It is offered once per year, it must be applied for, and it is only granted to one winning employee per 12-month period. The stipulations are that it must be a single day trip, can't be combined with a weekend/PTO, the winner must give a short presentation on our all hands meeting to share where we went and what we saw, and it must be used within 12 calendar months of being selected. I work in design, so this is intended to be for personal research related to our field but not directly related to any of our projects/work. If an applicant is selected, the firm will pay for all of their travel expenses and meals, and effectively grant one extra day of PTO for that employee to take the trip.
You can probably assume where I'm going with this - I thought it would be a lot of fun to fly myself somewhere fun as a day trip. By the time the travel grant is awarded I am hoping to have my PPL. That being said, I am unsure of the legality of me being compensated by my employer for the flight. 61.113a is pretty cut-and-dry about not accepting compensation as a PIC, but I am unsure if this would fall under 61.113b as being incidental to business, since it is just a day off as a chance to do independent research. There would be no financial incentive for my company to send me on this trip. It would just be me and I would not be flying with anyone else. If so, would my employer be able to compensate me for renting a plane to travel somewhere?
This is all just hypothetical right now and I'm leaning towards just asking for something else to be on the safe side. However, I can't help but think about how great of an adventure it would be! I would appreciate any insight.
Wedge_Donovan@reddit
Have you even asked your company if they'll allow you to fly yourself to wherever to go? I worked for medium to very large companies, including an aircraft manufacturer, before switching to flying professionally. None of them allowed personal aircraft for business travel for insurance/liability reasons.
Granite_burner@reddit
I’ve flown myself on trips for large corporations and been reimbursed. They probably already have policies governing it, and it’s possible those policies are prohibitive, but I’ve found the concerns are generally two fold: 1) liability; and 2) not running afoul of the Feds (mostly IRS). Issue #1 was easily solved by including them as a named insured on your policy for the required coverages. Issue #2 was easily solved by finding the IRS reimbursement rate, similar to the mileage rate for automobiles. I think the IRS also allowed for actual cost if documented properly.
Can’t recall for certain if I ever flew myself when traveling on Federal business for either of my agencies but have a vague recollection I may have. I know that I definitely researched the policies to determine not only that it was in fact possible but how it would work. The governing policies were OPM iirc, or possibly OMB, and they required comparisons with commercial fares to ensure the taxpayers were getting good value. The reimbursement rate was based on what was set by the IRS.
Both were a few years ago, so some details may have changed, but it’s certainly possible.
The legality for OP seems pretty clear because the reimbursement is for the cost of travel, not for piloting. Same as his reimbursement for doing it in his car would be for travel, not for driving. If he were paid for driving he’d need a CDL, just like he would need a CPL if he were paid for flying.
Wedge_Donovan@reddit
The aircraft manufacturer I worked for had an explicit clause in their business travel policy document expressly forbidding travel (for business purposes) via private aircraft. It was strictly for liability reasons. There was zero flexibility or waiver process. My coworkers and I definitely asked/tried.
The US government, however, has zero issue reimbursing mileage (or at least a portion of it) for travel via private aircraft for its employees. I flew my own or rented aircraft on multiple TDY trips.
buzzly@reddit
My company is that way too. You needed to name them on an insurance policy that covered them. I forget the exact number but it was in the many millions range.
SSMDive@reddit
My company (an airline) flat out refuses to pay for anything aircraft related - They will buy me airline tickets all day, fly the corporate jet, even hire a 135. But if I want to fly my Bonanza that is flat out forbidden. So maybe clear with them if that is even allowed. This seriously hurts my productivity some times. I could pop in my plane and be at an office in under an hour and be back at my man office in less than 5 hours total, or I could rent a car and drive 4 hours one way and basically be gone all day. I could drive the the international airport and hop a flight, but that is going to cost more and take longer than driving with all the airport BS.... But the word from legal was no....
As for the other stuff. They give you money, you spent it the way you wanted. As long as you don't take people or product with you, it should be fine.
Granite_burner@reddit
Heck if it’s worth flying the Bo but they won’t pay for that and will pay for a 135 just take the 135, it doesn’t require TSA lines so it saves the same time.
Your problem is it’s an airline company so it’s a special case because they’ve got immense reputational risk that nobody from any other industry would have for pilot error or mechanical failure.
As a student pilot in a design gig OP seems unlikely to be in such a situation.
BadassBlondeMILF@reddit
In my experience, the regulatory side isn't the hard part.
Most businesses will not cover personal travel by airplane without onerous requirements. This is for liability reasons. It's also to protect the companie reputation if there's a mishap.
For example, companies I have worked for (ans these are aviation companies) require a minimum of 2M-5M in liability insurance and the CEO/Company must be named as a beneficiary. This is because they have an employee travel program with ancillary insurance. They expect to get all that they pay out back and will fight to show any mishap was a you problem, not a company problem.
They also will not pay more than the constructive cost of travel by personal vehicle mileage rate. More could violate 61.113.
No other employees or equipment can be carried.
They also require director level approval.
Granite_burner@reddit
My experience is that most businesses will not cover personal travel by any means. If you combine personal travel with business travel you have to separate them out somehow.
If you meant they will not cover employee travel by personal airplane my experience has been that they do, if you jump through the right hoops. How onerous those might be will vary. I didn’t find them prohibitively onerous. YMMV.
You say you were traveling for aviation companies, which may mean they have more onerous restrictions. My experience with non-aviation companies was that reputational risk was not a factor. They might also be concerned that their industry affiliation makes for a larger risk exposure motivating higher coverage limits.
ThePartTimePilot@reddit
I would say it is allowed and I would also say it is in furtherance of business since you are doing research for them… however I think it comes down to whether or not the business is posting it as incidental… whiz I would guess they would?
100LLTastesYummy@reddit (OP)
I have a feeling they may ask to post about it on their Instagram/website. I'm not sure if that would then be considered marketing and not incidental to business, so I think I would try to ask them to avoid it.
Granite_burner@reddit
Don’t rock the boat asking them to handle it any differently than they would handle it if you drove.
Marketing is certainly incidental to business.
They are reimbursing you for your out of pocket expenses incurred traveling to conduct business for them, in this case research of your own choosing (pretty nice perk btw). Sounds like they’d be cool if you took an airline flight to wherever you’re going for the day as long as you had enough time to do it in a single day and still accomplish meaningful research, even if they may hope you’ll day trip someplace close enough to drive.
Depending on your industry maybe you could do research comparing design of airport terminals by flying to Chicago or Denver? Or for a real boondoggle do both O’Hare and Stapleton along with Hartsfield and rack up some serious frequent flyer miles getting paid to tour airport terminals? Heck, go big and charter a NetJet to compare FBO designs for the high roller clientele! You could probably get red carpet tours of the FBOs if they know your account will be posted on some marketing blog somewhere…
Those are extreme examples, to demonstrate you’re not being paid for providing carriage. I’m just saying if the program would accommodate stuff like that the FAA would have a tough time asserting you’re being paid to fly yourself, if your employer would pay whatever trip your trip cost regardless of how you traveled.
MattL-PA@reddit
So, youre on PTO and youre doing what you want when you want? Your employer isnt generating revenue from your time off or can control where or what your doing. Additionally they are giving you a bonus that potentially covers what you spend while you're on PTO?
You do have an obligation to tell your peers what you did on your day off?
This is an interesting mindfuk... the "bonus" and requirement to report back makes it gray, but.. my PP opinion is send it. Youre not on the clock, youre not obligated to fly, your trip report doesnt have a flying obligation - unless it does cause that "extra day off" was awarded due to being able to use a private plane - i think this is the crux here. If the company awards it because they are ultimately getting data/experience as a result of a flight, and they are indirectly paying for the flight, its a paid flight. Though if they dont tell you why your submission was selected, how would you know....
AbbreviationsRare303@reddit
It doesn’t seem like a violation at all. Now if they pay for it before hand and provide a requirement to fly here or there and do this or that….but as described you’re fine!
mirassou3416@reddit
Not a problem at all…I used to work with Grumman and they would reimburse me for my aircraft expenses when I would fly my plane to a meeting or event
AIRdomination@reddit
You are not getting paid to carry passengers or property, and you are not being compensated specifically for being in that plane. Your compensation isn’t predicated on you flying. That’s a personal choice.
This is perfectly fine.
BrtFrkwr@reddit
Take it. Don't overscrew your chicken.
jacenborne@reddit
So long as you are flying just yourself, it is perfectly legal under 61.113(b) for your business to cover your travel expenses, so long as the purpose of the trip has a connection to the business covering the costs. I wouldn't overthink this, your work is offering travel expenses with the expectation that the trip involves research and presentations connecting back to your work, that makes the trip connected to your business. If you fly someone with you - the exception is out the window, you're basically an air carrier if you get paid at that point.
Keep in mind as a new private pilot, your get-there-itis will be strong if you choose to fly yourself. Have a back-up plan (pre-booked airline tickets) at the ready to give yourself an easy out.
ReadyplayerParzival1@reddit
Is it being considered a gift from your employer or like a bonus? If it’s a bonus it’s your money, I wouldn’t say it’s necessary in furtherance of a business, this sounds like a team spirit building exercise that you got a bonus for? Right?
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hi everyone,
I am a currently a student pilot working towards my PPL and have a question regarding 14 CFR § 61.113. I asked a few instructors and we had some mixed answers, so I'm curious what everyone here thinks as well. First, a little bit of background:
My office is offering a new employee perk that they are calling a one-day travel grant. It is offered once per year, it must be applied for, and it is only granted to one winning employee per 12-month period. The stipulations are that it must be a single day trip, can't be combined with a weekend/PTO, the winner must give a short presentation on our all hands meeting to share where we went and what we saw, and it must be used within 12 calendar months of being selected. I work in design, so this is intended to be for personal research related to our field but not directly related to any of our projects/work. If an applicant is selected, the firm will pay for all of their travel expenses and meals, and effectively grant one extra day of PTO for that employee to take the trip.
You can probably assume where I'm going with this - I thought it would be a lot of fun to fly myself somewhere fun as a day trip. By the time the travel grant is awarded I am hoping to have my PPL. That being said, I am unsure of the legality of me being compensated by my employer for the flight. 61.113a is pretty cut-and-dry about not accepting compensation as a PIC, but I am unsure if this would fall under 61.113b as being incidental to business, since it is just a day off as a chance to do independent research. There would be no financial incentive for my company to send me on this trip. It would just be me and I would not be flying with anyone else. If so, would my employer be able to compensate me for renting a plane to travel somewhere?
This is all just hypothetical right now and I'm leaning towards just asking for something else to be on the safe side. However, I can't help but think about how great of an adventure it would be! I would appreciate any insight.
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