Poll: More Europeans see US as threat than China
Posted by BabylonianWeeb@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 457 comments
Posted by BabylonianWeeb@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 457 comments
OccasionNo2675@reddit
I'm not surprised by this. Not saying that China are the good guys but comparatively they seem much more stable.
fifthflag@reddit
We europeans are not good guys either, far from it.
Kubocho@reddit
Who are the good guys?
Sir-Knollte@reddit
I wonder if Obama would have put a hold on Gaza, if he could have done that he would be the best you can realistically get from the world hegemony.
Still far from a good guy.
Kubocho@reddit
During Obama presidency, US bombed Libya, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen and Afghasnistan
1966TEX@reddit
Canada
fifthflag@reddit
There's no good guys, good and bad cannot apply to societies/countries no matter how much we all wish we were THE civilization, the only moral power.
mrgoobster@reddit
Much better to judge leaders, and it would still be complicated. You'd need axes like competence, integrity, realism, prudence, restraint.
For example, Napoleon was competent, self-aggrandizing, a realist, imprudent, unrestrained. Mao was incompetent, immoral, delusional, imprudent, unrestrained.
...I've just realized that Trump is more of a Mao than a Mussolini, when judged by method and character instead of ideology.
balinjerica@reddit
Mao? Comparing him to Mao? Mao was as if all the founding fathers were also general Eisenhower winning against the Nazis and also produced historically important texts as did say Lenin. Almost noone can fathom how historically important and accomplished Mao was. Read, n, read!
mrgoobster@reddit
The tags you guys put on are hilarious.
effurshadowban@reddit
Trump more of a Mao than Mussolini? You know nothing about Mao or Mussolini. Neither their character or ideology. And comparing Trump to either is laughable, because they are both intellectual titans when compared to Trump. Mussolini somewhat understood socialism and could invent a political movement that diverts the underlying energy for socialism into something else.
mrgoobster@reddit
I laid out exactly the criteria of comparison, and somehow you managed to avoid mentioning them at all. Trump is, as Mao was: incompetent, corrupt, delusional, imprudent, and disrespectful of institutions.
AlphaBetaOmegaGamma@reddit
Mao took China from a humiliated nation that was partitioned by colonial powers and laid the path for them to become what they are today. Trump wishes he was 1% of the leader that Mao was.
mrgoobster@reddit
Mao mismanaged and brutally repressed China, murdering millions and starving millions more through incompetence and paranoia. The economic achievements you're gesturing towards are properly attributed to Deng Xiaoping - no saint himself, but sane, competent, and forward-thinking.
The best thing you could say about Mao is that he was good at ideological mobilization and asymmetric warfare. His strategy of using the war against Japan to position the Communists for the post-war struggle against the Nationalists was smart and effective. He never took an action during the war without calculating the long-term advantage against his real enemies.
As is often the case, however, rebellions tend to project the wrong people into positions of power. Mao was a talented revolutionary warlord, but a disastrous economic governor.
Zealousideal_Ad4505@reddit
All the dictators you could compare Trump with and you chose Mao? They are nothing alike. Trump is not even 1/10th the man Mao was, even with his disastrous flaws. At best Trump is like a second rate Latin American caudillo like a Stroessner or a Batista.
-The_Guy_@reddit
I apologize for the state of American education being put on display here.
fifthflag@reddit
Napoleon invaded several countries, Mao none. This is why we all should stop comparing and judging with our own biases or we might make stupid statements that Trump is in any shape or form a Mao like figure.
Qweedo420@reddit
The international proletariat
LetMeHaveAUsername@reddit
I mean, I like where you're coming from, but if you look at the reality of people's social and political opinions and voting behavior, that's not really the case either, unfortunately, even though it reasonably should be.
Czart@reddit
Ah so unicorns and elves.
Kranken_DeHogge@reddit
unlike unicorns and elves the working class is a very real thing
Czart@reddit
And yet international proletariat is a figment of communist imagination
not_not_in_the_NSA@reddit
So you think people who need to work for a living don't exist?
Czart@reddit
I'm saying "international proletariat" doesn't exist. Not that there aren't workers across the globe.
1-123581385321-1@reddit
"international proletariat" literally just means workers across the globe, it says nothing about them being organized along marxist lines (or any lines). But it's funny you got so triggered by scary words.
Czart@reddit
Man i love tilting commies. Your definition would be so vague you might as well say "humanity".
BiCloverly@reddit
You're just showing that you don't actually have any understanding of these terms. Please stop
Emperor_Cat_IV@reddit
It's not vague though, the proletariat is a specific, defined thing contrasted by other classes.
effurshadowban@reddit
You're so ignorant that it is both funny and scary. Words have definitions. "international proletariat" literally means (industrial) workers across the globe.
Czart@reddit
Go on champ.
Scientific_Socialist@reddit
Sounds pretty based
Scientific_Socialist@reddit
Holy fucking based
Magjee@reddit
Pretty good answer
Private_HughMan@reddit
Sentinel Island seems to have the best track record so far.
Caliterra@reddit
I don't really hear people complain about Fijians
luvsads@reddit
Palau. Definitely NOT biased or anything.
combustibledaredevil@reddit
You know what fuck it, let Palau run the rest of us
EmilyFara@reddit
Oh god, that's the plot of Helldivers. World goes to war with each other, nuclear catastrophe, survivors decide that the only neutral country gets to run the world
GrassFromBtd6@reddit
Wouldn't that be switzerland...
EmilyFara@reddit
In Helldivers it's Sweden (the devs are Swedish and then Sweden was still neutral when the game was made)
eggplantpot@reddit
I'm always been a fan of Palau and Order
flyinggazelletg@reddit
Pan o palau
VastPresent7800@reddit
turks 💪🏿
CEDoromal@reddit
Scandinavians
ImpossibleDragonfly@reddit
Life is not a movie. The more responsibilities you have the more you'll be confronted with moral dillemas that have no clear right answer where someone will end up suffering no matter what decision you make.
travistravis@reddit
It would 100% depend on viewpoint and who you are. To the tech billionaires and a group of rich pedophiles the US is definitely the good guys for right now. In a few years, for at least one of those groups it's likely they won't be the good guys anymore.
Personally, if I had to assign relative "good" to a country, it would be measured by how difficult life is for the absolute worst off. (In general things like reducing income inequality, focusing on initiatives for reducing homelessness, eradicating food insecurity, improving literacy, etc.)
Fluffy_Beautiful2107@reddit
Right now, maybe spain ?
Kubocho@reddit
well im spanish so thanks man
Flaksim@reddit
No one tends to be in the end. The only countries that you can consider to be "good" from a geopolitical standpoint are those that were historically too weak to do bad shit to others (and thusbgot bad shit done to them), but they probably wouldn't have been any better had the roles been reversed.
Anxious_Katz@reddit
No Nation state is "the good guys". In fact nation states don't have morality, they have interests. "Good guys and bad guys" thinking is super American lib coded.
ChillAhriman@reddit
Any geopolitical entity has to make compromises with morality in order to survive, and usually stomp on it if they want to get ahead.
Some institutions and dynamics make this cruel game a little bit less terrible. The EU has most likely prevented wars between countries that belong to it. International law and the UN serve to seek alternatives and slow things down before the worst comes to shove. Unfortunately, they're only patches on a reality that's very cruel, and they aren't even capable of stopping the worst criminals of our time.
Maybe there will come a day in the long distant future where some people manage to create systems that bring justice and order for all, and not only for those that the most powerful aren't trying to subjugate. We will live and die without seeing that day come, like all our ancestors have for the whole history of civilization.
Omegatherion@reddit
Mr. Rodgers, it's only one guy actually
jenny_905@reddit
I like Estonia, nice people. Great flag.
iHadou@reddit
Puppies
NeJin@reddit
No geopolitical actor, that's for sure.
CustomerSupportDeer@reddit
We're not, but there are grades to evil.
fifthflag@reddit
Yeah, historically we are worse than the Chinese, better than the US only if you take the last half of the 21st century, even tho Europe didn't really shy away from assisting or supporting the US with warcrimes.
CustomerSupportDeer@reddit
You mean 20th, and yes. We (whatever that means in the context of the sum of european nations) are better than both China and the US - both currently, and for most of the past 60-70 years.
datNomad@reddit
Duh, definitely not better than China. China didn't wage genocidal wars nor subjugated foreign countries, exploiting and robbing them of their natural resources, while mass murdering native population.
Big_Distance_2542@reddit
You really need to read more about chineese history before making statements like this, on their own turf alone they do a lot of atrocities to minorities, and they are a global power with global interests.
Goigle the treatment of uighurs, their social credit system or their "cheap loans" to mention just a few.
austin_8@reddit
This is stupid, China has done a lot wrong, but those aren’t examples of it. They are working towards pacifying a radical population to ensure the long term stability of their nation, the social credit system, just like credit scores in the USA, are a basis of increasing economic efficiency on the calculus of the credit rating of an individual and race or nepotism, and the loans are supporting the building of the economies of developing states and generating both wealth and allies in the process.
_Enclose_@reddit
That's dictator speak.
austin_8@reddit
Not really, liberal democracies over the entire world and history have engaged in the same behavior
_Enclose_@reddit
State above all else. That's dictator speak.
austin_8@reddit
If Jackson, Lincoln, Churchill, de Gaulle, were dictators than sure
datNomad@reddit
You really need to read less of Western propaganda for not-so-bright people.
CustomerSupportDeer@reddit
China is doing all these things right now.
datNomad@reddit
Vague post king.
Ok_Relation7695@reddit
This is stupid!!! Fucking dumbass. Isn’t it better to accept no evil? Why do you feel like you have to accept evil?
4latar@reddit
find a "good" country in geopolitics is quite hard, but at least europe isn't leading a surprise attack to "bring them back to the stone age" or kidnapping foreign presidents
NOLA-Bronco@reddit
I mean lets not pretend that Europe isn't very much part of the machine of extractive capitalism itself.
That has played ongoing roles in many places in the global south keeping regimes destabilized, corrupted, and/or subservient in order to maintain the shared resources of cheap raw materials and cheap labor. Often to the point of slave-like conditions.
Like pretty much everyone has blood on their hands in the Congo. Whether it was directly engaging in extractive colonialism, assassinations, coups, corruption, or predatory structural adjustment loans that keep Congo in endless debt and subservience,
But TBC, the US sits high above most in modern history, but Europe, as we see with Gaza, don't exactly ever step in and do much about anything, even rhetorically.
4latar@reddit
oh yes, i'm from france and i'm well aware of both our history and continued exploitation of our colonial empire. but as bad as it is, and it is bad, the US has and is still doing way worse with the threat of invading canada and greenland, the iran war, and kidnapping of president maduro
IsNotAnOstrich@reddit
Europe just got done with a literal genocide like 30 years ago dude lol
4latar@reddit
sure buddy, all of europe was doing a genocide 30 years ago. absolutely
IsNotAnOstrich@reddit
Not all of Europe, but yeah, right on their doorstep. How would you feel if the US were doing a genocide, but only in Florida?
4latar@reddit
well, since the US is a country and europe is a continent, i'd say the US can be guilty of something if its government does something, but europe doesn't have a government so it doesn't work the same. the only way europe can be guilty of something is if all (or at least most) of europe is responsible, which isn't the case here.
sorry but this is a false equivalence
IsNotAnOstrich@reddit
No, you're just unnecessarily picky with the analogy, because you know it reflects poorly on Europe. It's about the distance.
How would it reflect on the US if it ignored an active genocide in Mexico? On the UK if Germany were committing a genocide? There are barely 500km between Vienna and Sarajevo. It was right there.
-The_Guy_@reddit
My guy, our country just participated is a genocide and Gaza and are threatening one in Iran. Sit down and shut up would ya.
4latar@reddit
damn, you got me, your argument being shit is a proof of me being evil
julius_sphincter@reddit
Seriously. The amount of what sometimes seems to be unjust self-righteousness coming out of Europe the last decade or so can make it difficult to take their other reasonable/just criticisms seriously
The360MlgNoscoper@reddit
We’re doing quite well though, considering our history.
OneMonk@reddit
I dont know how you reached that conclusion.
Levitz@reddit
About every thing you can pin on European states you can pin on China 10 times over.
fifthflag@reddit
Sure, China was known for running a colonial empire based on chattel slavery and resource extraction and bankrolling wars and genocides globally.
Levitz@reddit
Oh no, China is known for imposing forced labor today, targeting minorities.
fifthflag@reddit
China still has a better track record than European nations, even if that was true. We are know to provide diplomatic immunity and economic assistance to a country doing a genocide.
Levitz@reddit
Which is so unlike China's support of Russia lmfao
fifthflag@reddit
Is Russia doing a genocide that I don't know of? Is china vetoing anything at the UN?
Ok_Relation7695@reddit
What’s your country?
Eoth1@reddit
So are a lot of other nations
Ok_Relation7695@reddit
Bullshit!!!! Fuck off with your bullshit. Did China colonize and enslave the entire fucking world for 100s of years? Why aren’t we all speaking Chinese?
Trollimperator@reddit
Jea, fucking Romania knows what they did. They should really be ashamed of themselfs! ^/s
fifthflag@reddit
Romania was an active participant in the Holocaust bro, was pretty cruel in Ukraine during WW2 and had the worst form of slavery against the gypsy population, probably the only one from Eastern Europe.
redredme@reddit
But we aren't in dire need of agricultural mechanisation anymore Hans!
Monterenbas@reddit
Lmao, what do you blame yourself for, Romania?
Comprehensive_Bad876@reddit
Being the two sided idiots that seem to choose the wrong side again in less than 100 years? Neah, we’re chill. Hopefully.
Kiboune@reddit
Honest question - why people hate China? Except awful shit they did in 90s with protesters, I don't remember anything else. Did they invade some country or bombed someone?
Cdru123@reddit
Well, there's the Great Firewall, the Uighur genocide, secret police embedded into other countries, and threats over people talking about Taiwan
AwTomorrow@reddit
Honestly the Great Firewall has been publicised a lot, but a lot of countries (Russia, the UK, etc) similarly block swathes of the internet now.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
The Ugyur genocide has been thoroughly debunked and you can literally go to Xinjiang and see you with your own eyes.
It's wholly disingenuous to suggest that there is a genocide of the Ugyurs when there is not a shred of evidence for this.
We know a genocide looks like in 2026. Every single person has a smartphone and every single Chinese person uses a VPN.
Get a grip.
aljuan420@reddit
Are you really irish?
beryugyo619@reddit
No way. There are plenty of reports showing how they got rid of everything Islamic from those regions. Everything flashy from Hong Kong as well.
An Irish guy calling it "debunked"? lol absolutely no fucking way
Medical_Officer@reddit
Literally every single travel vlog to Xinjiang shows the exact opposite.
But yeah, keep believing the "reports" and not your lying eyes.
beryugyo619@reddit
Literally every single travel vlog to Xinjiang on YouTube shows exactly that! wtf are you even watching!?
Medical_Officer@reddit
Link a single travel vlog video showing a genocide in Xinjiang.
robiinator@reddit
Do you also believe North Korea is prosperous lmao
beryugyo619@reddit
to take them down? no fucking way I link them here
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
convenient
malakambla@reddit
In this sub? It's much more likely than you think.
Big_Distance_2542@reddit
Useful idiots are wverywhere.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
No I'm Russian/Chinese/Iranian bot
Take your pick
aljuan420@reddit
never seen an irish bootlicker
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
Possibly because you don't know any Irish people? Any honest Irish man is an anti imperialist and we are not scared of broadening our horizons like I did.
Instead of just buying the propaganda I went to China and spend a month there, in the muslim regions.
The people are prosperous and healthy and happy and their culture and languages are represented on every corner. Big beautiful mosques and delicious halal food everywhere.
Like most of China their cities put ours to shame with the infrastructure etc.
It's 2026, we know what a genocide looks like.
Big_Distance_2542@reddit
So you went to china and saw no genocide, good for you.
Are you aware that a lot of germans were unaware of the existance/scope/true terror of the concentration camps?
Because china is even larger, and their propaganda machine is even more impressive.
Maybe multiple entiries reporting on something is an indication.
Unoriginell@reddit
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-camps-china/
You dont need to kill people for it to be a genocide.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
In China: their scary re-education camps
In the west: our benevolent correctional facilities
It's 2026 man, your propaganda is so stale that it's broken my teeth
Unoriginell@reddit
You said the uygur genocide does not exist i proved the opposite. China calls the camps vocotional Training Centers not jails. So its not comparable to Western prisons
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
Between the years of 2005 and 2015 there were countless terrorist attacks on China by separatists from the ETIM (radical islamists separatists that want to form an Islamic State in Western China akin to Afghanistan.)
China cracked down effectively on this. It cracked down so effectively that it even received praise from the OIC (organisation of Islamic cooperation) for it's efforts. The organization also sent a delegation to xinjiang which came back with the report that they were very happy with the conditions of Muslims in the region.
I'll take the word over the organisation of Islamic cooperation over a random German on Reddit.
Unoriginell@reddit
You are not supposed to trust me but the article that I Linked. You can also go to Amnesty International or human rights watch who call the treatmemt of uygurs crimes against humanity.
Or would you rather believe a Organisation half the member states of which are financially dependend on the Belt and road initiative and are heavily indebted to China?
https://amnesty.org.nz/china-draconian-repression-muslims-xinjiang-amounts-crimes-against-humanity/
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/19/break-their-lineage-break-their-roots/chinas-crimes-against-humanity-targeting
You have not yet shown any actual proof refuting the evidence shown by Reuters, Amnesty etc.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
Wait a second didn't Amnesty International say that saddam Hussein was killing babies in incubators shortly before the genocidal attack on Iraq? Didn't they testify this before the United Nations and it turned out to be a lot of crap? It's almost as if these western ngos have their own motives
ChristerMLB@reddit
Amnesty International make a mistake, which they later correct, and based on that you chose to believe that they are part of some shadowy conspiracy?
This pisses me off, tbh. Fuck you.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
Amnesty International makes a lot of mistakes, at some point one recognises a pattern
ChristerMLB@reddit
But this just sounds like standard conspiracy thinking: using lots of weak circumstantial "evidence" to justify an outrageous conclusion that they really can't support.
People in organizations like AI are doing the hard, boring and often underpaid (often voluntary) work that it takes to make the world a little better, inch by inch. They are not perfect, and there is corruption and other BS among NGO's just like everywhere else - but they are also constantly threatened and vilified by authoritarian governments, and it should be natural to expect that there's a lot of disinformation out there to undermine their credibility.
Now, I assumed, and I maybe shouldn't have, that you are one of the many people who buy in to this kind of disinformation, and also maybe complain that your country is not democratic enough, that the common man is getting screwed over by the elites, and that there is so much corruption and evil in the world, all without actually getting your butt off the couch to, say, join a union, a political party, an organization like Amnesty, Red Cross, the Salvation Army or whatever, and do the boring work of actually making things a little better. It ticks me off when people like that feel fit to demonize those who do.
It's not really a counter argument to yours, it's just the reason I got a bit ticked off for a moment.
splader@reddit
You're putting a lot of trust in Western sources that have lost credibility over the last few years.
Ok_Relation7695@reddit
Can you call out western aligned nations that obviously kill people and support genocides?
Unoriginell@reddit
Of course, Gaza, yemen or if you go back in time iraq and vietnam. And at the same time i can critisize China for their crimes
Ok_Relation7695@reddit
Palestine is an ongoing genocide… isreal didn’t stop the genocide… everyday isreal still kill hundreds
CJThunderbird@reddit
Great firewall seems like a fantasticidea in hindsight. We went with the big brained Wild West approach to the internet and we've ended up with right wing nutters, porn, Russian bots and mass disinformation campaigns. The porn's good but that's about it.
HDK1989@reddit
Yep, the only lesson from the last 20 years is that the public and tech companies can't actually be trusted with an open internet.
The issue that the West has is that our governments are so incompetent and generally awful that nobody trusts them to implement internet restrictions even if people wanted them.
ScaryShadowx@reddit
Lol, the West only cares about freedom of speech when they have control, as soon as they lose that, we are seeing how quickly they put up their own firewalls.
The forced sale of TikTok, the banning of Chinese tech for 'national security', the [weird ban on non-US built routers] (https://www.wired.com/story/us-government-foreign-made-router-ban-explained/) which look like it being done so backdoors can be introduced, the ban of "from river to the sea" in several Western nations, software that has different responses solely for Israel, hell even the US own internal disinformation campaign and persecution of political opponents.
captaintangerine631@reddit
Us vietnamese don’t like the chinese 9 dashes claim, same with many of ASEAN nations. There is also the fact that there had been many illegal chinese fishing boats in some areas that destroy the fishes population.
Medical_Officer@reddit
But you guys love the Americans who murdered 3 million of your countrymen.
I guess that's just how much you folks love white people.
captaintangerine631@reddit
Where the fuck does that come from lol ?… Did I said I like the US ? So wait …. Because of my nation millions of death from the america war …. Vietnam should love china who … just right after vietnam unify, support pol pot who raided vietnam killing 3000 of its civilian, attack vietnam in a 2 front war… and with modern day politic that china have unreasonably claim what vietnam island that vietnam consider its legimate territory ? Just because you shill for china and hate us warcrime, it doesn’t excuse for china unreasonable demand.
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
9 dash line.
The fact that nobody notices China has continuously been sending underwater drones and probes that get washed up or caught.
The fact that Chinese mainland nationals have been caught taking pictures or observing of military positions and naval bases, US or Domestic.
The fact that right now, they are threatening the Philippines with military ships far too close to Philippines coastal region of Palawan.
The fact that as we speak, they have been moving illegal fishing boats and military ships with identification turned off.
HDK1989@reddit
Oh no, not taking photos of the greatest threat to humanity that parks military bases on their doorstep? What next?
Nobody cares
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
You mean observing activity, combat readiness, and capacity of a field/naval base.
Of course any country protecting their sovereignty should care.
NerdPunkFu@reddit
Multiple ongoing genocides and ethnic cleansings as well as clearly arming itself for a war of expansion that would cripple the global economy might have something to do with it.
crusadertank@reddit
They asked about China not the US
China is not doing the thing you have written. The genocide in Xinjiang has been thoroughly debunked and its military is very obviously not preparing for a war of expansion based on its design and tactics
lolidkwtfrofl@reddit
Taiwan might want a word on the second topic.
crusadertank@reddit
Do you call Ukraine expansionist when they sent soldiers to Donbass?
Stopping regions of your country leaving is not expansionism
And that's ignoring the fact that the PRC view is for peaceful reunification
So no you are just wrong here unless you want to define expansionism in a really stupid way
jmsgrtk@reddit
Taiwan isn't sending soldiers into China, are they? Its also no longer a regiin if China. And what happens if the people of Taiwan, its own country completely separate from China, don't want to be reunified? If they don't want reunification, then a peaceful reunification is not possible. Which is likely why the world has taken notice of Chinas military maneuvers and actions around Taiwan.
crusadertank@reddit
It is a region of china officially. That is the stance of the ROC
The same as any seperatist movement supported by a foreign power.
Right, and that's why the PRCs stance is that they aim for a peaceful reunification but will resort to military action if Taiwan declares independence
Or more likely that China has become a threat to the US and consent needs to be manufactured in order to create an enemy so that Americans don't start questioning why their lives are continuously getting worse
splader@reddit
I can't take the whole "arming itself" takes seriously when they haven't dropped a single bomb in like what, 30 years?
Meanwhile the states and other Western powers have killed tens of thousands directly (if not more).
historicusXIII@reddit
Economic competition mostly.
neatdude73@reddit
China is not a democracy.
splader@reddit
And yet their more of their people consider themselves to be a democracy than most other democracies...
neatdude73@reddit
Um where is this coming from exactly?
splader@reddit
I dunno, ask them.
Levitz@reddit
Well for one, actually engaging with this question may get you in trouble in China.
CustomerSupportDeer@reddit
Bruh
SourcerorSoupreme@reddit
China's really aggressive to their South East Asian neighbors.
jenny_905@reddit
Well Western governments hate that something different has been proven to work.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
When it comes to governments, I consider the 'good guys' to be those that deliver a better and better quality of life for their working class majority every year and not attacking other countries
China ticks those boxes
coconut071@reddit
You say that while they literally threaten annexation of my hometown Taiwan every day.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
source that the People's Republic of China has threatened the Republic of China with invasion?
Luname@reddit
The One China policy.
Go read about it.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
The 'One China Policy' is recognised by virtually every country on the planet including the US and the whole of the EU
Luname@reddit
The One China policy.
Go read about it.
aravena@reddit
Just the same ignorance as those polled in the article.
DateMasamusubi@reddit
Perhaps not attacking but China's meddling in Myanmar and the suffering there is often overlooked.
SourcerorSoupreme@reddit
lol how about the majority of South East Asia, are we going to ignore that?
cookingboy@reddit
The Philippines and Vietnam isn’t “majority of SE Asia”.
Most of SE Asia has great relationship with China. Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, you name it.
SourcerorSoupreme@reddit
mf is it that hard to hold two things at once? The topic is not who SEA prefers but what China is doing that is being overlooked. You say it's US propaganda when I'm actually from South East Asia
And unlike you who sees things in black and white, I can easily recognize the USA being an asshat to the world all while acknowledging China being a regional threat. And no, I don't like it as I enjoy working with the Chinese businesses/people daily; but how their government treats its neighbors is not benign.
The fact you even try to dismiss this as just "US propganda" is equally propaganda, but to the other extreme. You're not just overlooking it, you're dismissing and deflecting it.
Byggherren@reddit
I swear people can't see past their bias. They hate the U.S. so that immediately makes China the good guys... China is threatening the sovereignty of so many countries especially by trying to claim the fucking ocean and bullying their neighbors away from it not to speak of the countless other nations they are meddling with. Nothing against the people of china just like the people of the United States but for fucks sake.
Acceptable-Device760@reddit
There's a huge difference between majority and 2.
You are spreading propaganda and being offended when caugh.
SourcerorSoupreme@reddit
Sorry the only reason your argument has some semblance of weight is because of your premise of just 2 which is based on the assumption that the other countries do not have disputes or have not experienced China's bullying, which is flat out wrong.
Just because countries are more willing to align with China does not mean China is the benevolent "good guy" you portray them to be.
Myanmar, Vietnam, Taiwan, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia; heck Hong Kong though not a country is an easy example of how your simplistic argument hand waves the effect of China's disposition.
Your argument is basically people would rather ingest dog poop than cyanide therefore dog poop is the "good guy".
Acceptable-Device760@reddit
PS: You are defending a country that the POS in charge said would make another disappear.
Have the bare minimum of decency.
SourcerorSoupreme@reddit
Holy fuck reading comprehension and critical thinking is clearly zero.
I NEVER said that the USA is benign. I was merely pointing out that China isn't the "good guy" like the others are saying here. Are you that stupid that you can't hold two things at once?
If I criticized Russia for invading Ukraine, does that mean I'm defending the USA? Just holy fuck have the bare minimum of critical thinking.
captaintangerine631@reddit
It quite depressing to us seabling…. People these day just saw the US so bad that we all should kowtow to beijing xD i can’t deal with this bro.
SourcerorSoupreme@reddit
Thank god someone that understands. I have no idea how hard it is to call out both the USA and China at the same time. Like doing one doesn't preclude the other.
Heck we even if we agree that the USA has done worse even by orders of magnitude, it doesn't erase the fact that China has done oppressive things both locally and regionally, thus invalidating this "good guy" narrative.
Acceptable-Device760@reddit
Thats the answer that started the conversation.
Brother the idiot here is you.
You are in a Thread about US and China, answering a reply talking positive of China going "but..."
That makes you be in a position of defending the US. You dont realizing it shows how absolutely stupid you are, and you think everyone around is the ones stupid.
I will say again; have the bare decency. Stupidity doesnt make you less of a piece of shit based in what you are doing. It just makes you a stupid PoS.
Acceptable-Device760@reddit
No.
My argument is that every country meddles with others. And here you are attacking China solely in a topic about the US x China.
China is not the good guy, but that wasnt the argument. The argument it was more stable AND is far better when considering that the US carpet bombed the SE for a couple of decades.
But lets ignore it, because you have personal gains if the US is the one meddling right?
dabeeman@reddit
take a look into the belt and road program by china. they meddle and exploit everywhere as well.
nachtengelsp@reddit
Ask a congolese about belgians, or a namibian about germans, or south africans about the dutch, or somalis about the italians, any african about their european colonizers... What the chinese are doing at least is bringing something solid to them, after decades depending on western virtue signaling\ \ Food donations and live pop music shows alone aren't going to bring development to an extremely poor country. Raw infrastructure brings... And that's what the belt and road is
pendelhaven@reddit
Anyone is free to join and leave the BRI. You are infantilizing countries by taking away their agency to engage with it. You do not have to take the deal presented by China, and they won't come bringing freedom and democracy to your country.
dabeeman@reddit
taking advantage of desperate countries is hardly a partnership of equals.
ScaryShadowx@reddit
Making trade deals with countries who are free to leave the trade deal as they wish is 'taking advantage' lol. This is peak Western savior complex.
"Those poor uncivilized countries, they don't know what is good for them and what deals they should make, they are getting exploited by having trade deals that are building infrastructure within their country and developing the economy. They should just let the benevolent West come and manage their countries and their resources for them since they don't have the mental capacity to take care of it themselves".
austin_8@reddit
Belt and Road is not a parent forcing decisions upon a child, these are rational countries able to calculate the cost benefit analysis of the term sheets offered by China, there’s nothing wrong with sovereigns engaging in free market contractualism.
Acceptable-Device760@reddit
The US coup and bomb everywhere.... having everything considered the China is far better.
dabeeman@reddit
whatsboutism at its finest
Ragebaiterlmao@reddit
Take your L and call it a day.
dabeeman@reddit
“zimbabwe” sure
TraditionalGap1@reddit
bwaahahahahaahahahaahahahaahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
What in the world do you think this comment is???
This is embarrassing, even for an American
Acceptable-Device760@reddit
This is the comment you answered:
And call whataboutism when i point how you ignored what the US did is just fantastic. You are a prime example of US stupidy.
Gexm13@reddit
No the topic is about majority of SEA being negatively affected by China and the commenter got fact checked.
You deflecting and changing the subject definitely seems like US propaganda. Nobody said China is good.
Medical_Officer@reddit
Yeah, because it was China that killed 3 million Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians over the course of a 30 year long war.
Also, it was the Chinese who invaded the Philippines and enacted mass murder of the civilian population.
-The_Guy_@reddit
Nobody has done more harm to Myanmar than Facebook, an unrestrained US grown cancer.
GreeboBirb@reddit
Another W take from an irishman, how do you all keep doing it?!
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
we know the dirty tricks the imperialists use better than almost anybody in Europe
travistravis@reddit
Sadly that knowledge was because you took most of them to the face.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
Indeed
Level_Hour6480@reddit
Whenever I hear an Irish accent, I know I'll hear a good foreign policy take. I think they might hate imperialism or something.
aravena@reddit
Bad bot
BitchesQuoteMarilyn@reddit
China also ticks the genocide, foreign meddling, and violent oppression boxes too, so maybe we need a couple more metrics than just the 2 you mentioned before we start applying the good guy label.
splader@reddit
Genocide?
You're not talking about the Uyghurs, are you?
BitchesQuoteMarilyn@reddit
Yes, I am.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037
splader@reddit
Yes, BBC, such a great source at reporting genocides!
And naaa, we were all bamboozled pretty hard with this stuff when it was almost all Western propaganda.
Czart@reddit
Yes because the one party controlled state media will bring you unbiased news.
Xanchush@reddit
You can literally go to Xinjiang and talk to Uyghurs to get their story. Anyone who has been there and talked to the locals know the US is using them as a tool for propaganda. They think it's hilarious. (I actually went on a trip to Ürümqi and was able to talk to people there)
travistravis@reddit
State controlled... but which state? https://www.thecanary.co/skwawkbox/2026/03/17/bbc-ico/
Czart@reddit
I was talking about chinese media. UK notably isn't one party country.
knuppan@reddit
Huh, neither is China. Are civic books rare in Poland after USSR disolved?
Czart@reddit
No, which is why i can recognise a one party state when i see one.
BitchesQuoteMarilyn@reddit
I find Amnesty International pretty good at it, who confirms this, along with other notable human rights groups. They do the same for the genocide in Palestine. Are you able to provide anything demonstrating there is no genocide from sources considered more reputable?
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
We've been through this in another comment. You cite Amnesty International which consistently makes mistakes countries that do not fall within the US sphere of influence.
One of their mistakes was so big that it was a significant contributor in the creation of consent of the genocidal invasion of Iraq.
But that was just one huge one. They frequently misreport things about North Korea and China and Iran. Often leaning on individuals as 'evidence'.
BitchesQuoteMarilyn@reddit
Ok, so you're saying several governments, research, and human rights groups are wrong. So where is the evidence they aren't being genocided, or where is the information you're using to say this. I'm not necessarily arguing, but I would like to see the contradictory information, and why it's a more reliable source.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
I'm saying that I spend a month in the region chatting to the people there and seeing what's going on with my own eyes.
My experience is corroborated by thousands of videos on YouTube, choose any creator and watch. If you are still parroting this nonsense then you're choosing to be ignorant.
BitchesQuoteMarilyn@reddit
From my perspective I have sources that are not perfect, but are not usually entirely wrong. On the other side I have nothing. Saying human rights groups and western governments have all colluded to entirely make up a genocide is a bold claim, and it needs evidence. Anecdotes from your travels in China are not sufficient. So if you're not going to provide information to inform an opinion, then this is a waste of time. Hard to stop being ignorant, as you say, when you can't provide anything.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
You're obviously engaging honestly so i feel that it's worth my time to explain my position. I created an Abridged version of a very long text:
The Uyghurs in Xinjiang (Abridged)
Overview
Some critics—particularly anti-Communist voices—claim that China is committing genocide against Uyghur Muslims in Xinjiang, alleging mass detention, indoctrination, forced sterilization, and organ harvesting. This perspective argues that such claims are exaggerated, lack solid evidence, and omit important context.
Background
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a vast and ethnically diverse region in northwest China, home to over 25 million people. The largest group is the Uyghurs, a predominantly Muslim, Turkic-speaking people.
Following the Cold War, separatist sentiment among some Uyghur groups grew. From the 2000s onward, Xinjiang and other parts of China saw violent attacks attributed to extremist separatists, including bombings, stabbings, and vehicle attacks. Major incidents occurred in cities like Ürümqi, Kunming, Beijing, and Kashgar, resulting in hundreds of deaths and injuries.
In response, China launched a “Strike Hard” campaign (2014–2016) aimed at counterterrorism and stability, which included heightened security and mass detentions. By 2017, international reports began alleging human rights abuses.
Causes of Extremism (Material Perspective)
A materialist analysis attributes extremism to underlying conditions such as economic marginalization and lack of opportunity. When populations feel excluded or hopeless, they may become more susceptible to radicalization.
From this viewpoint, China’s policies—particularly vocational training and economic development programs—are framed as attempts to address these root causes by integrating Uyghurs into broader economic life.
Counterpoints to Genocide Claims
This perspective argues that the most severe allegations (e.g., genocide, organ harvesting) lack strong evidence and are often amplified by Western media for geopolitical reasons.
Several international responses are cited:
Additionally, even some U.S. legal analysts reportedly concluded that while abuses might constitute “crimes against humanity,” evidence for genocide was insufficient.
Comparison: The War on Terror
The text contrasts China’s approach with that of the United States after 9/11. The U.S. launched wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths and tens of millions displaced, based partly on disputed or false premises.
By comparison, China’s response is characterized here as domestic deradicalization and vocational programs rather than foreign military intervention.
Actors Promoting the Genocide Narrative
The argument highlights several figures and organizations said to drive the genocide narrative:
The U.S. government formally labeled China’s actions as genocide in 2021, a position maintained across administrations.
Geopolitical Context: Belt and Road Initiative
The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a major Chinese infrastructure and trade project connecting Asia, Europe, and Africa. Xinjiang is a crucial hub in this network.
The argument suggests the U.S. has strategic incentives to undermine China’s reputation in Xinjiang, as the BRI could challenge U.S. global economic influence. Promoting allegations of human rights abuses could justify sanctions, damage China’s standing, and destabilize a key region.
Source and full version: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/1028893
coconut071@reddit
Ah, lemmygrad, the known tankie website.
I would encourage you to look up on the recently passed《民族團結法》and see how they are affecting local minorities.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
Argue with the sources, not the platform
coconut071@reddit
Why should I, when the text you posted also labels organizations and news sources as US tools without any context?
defenestrate_urself@reddit
The BBC has an agenda to sell. Specifically to your point.
This is a BBC report on Uyghur abuse saying they found new video evidence of young women uprooted and coerced into force labour in China.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mqga0a6H8I
That 'new video evidence' happens to be an English language Chinese documentary of village girls given the opportunity to escape the poverty trap and what would traditionally have been a life of a house bound wife with little education and prrospected except to rear children.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07NjqkQAgs8
The BBC report is excellent because they specficially state that the Chinese documentary is 'new video evidence' so this becomes a primary source, you can watch it yourself and judge the BBC's interpretation of this evidence.
Spend 40 minutes watching both and see how 'trusted media institutions' like the BBC edit the footage to turn what is the emacipatoin of young Uyghur women into 'forced labour'.
greyetch@reddit
Ah yes, the Adrian Zenz & Radio Free Asia special. This will be a classic case of propaganda to study in future decades.
I'm not trying to be an asshole, but you really have to accept their stories at face value and do no research to believe this. There's essentially zero evidence to support this claim. What little "evidence" exists is largely exaggerations or complete fabrications - stitched together by a handful of Western China Hawks to create a false narrative.
dabeeman@reddit
that’s pretty easy when you don’t allow voting or decent and didn’t have running water in a majority of the country 60 years ago.
-The_Guy_@reddit
Can you stop showing the world how lazy our country’s propaganda is. It’s sort of embarrassing.
dabeeman@reddit
lol ok. i grew up in china and know first hand
-The_Guy_@reddit
Mmhmm…
lolidkwtfrofl@reddit
But he's from Ireland, so he must know!
moderngamer327@reddit
I mean when the bar is that low it’s easy to make it higher. Conditions in China have improved in spite of their government not because of it
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
Ah yes, conditions in China just randomly got better by themselves and have nothing to do with the fact that all vital infrastructure belongs to the government
moderngamer327@reddit
Conditions got better because China finally liberalized their economy in the 70s. It’s still far more restrictive than most western countries so they’ve had a hard time catching up in standards of living.
travistravis@reddit
The government does seem to be pushing hard in at least a few areas. Like in 2024, they added more solar than the rest of the world combined.
Levitz@reddit
So you are basically a Nazi as long as the state is militarily inferior to the competition.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
Asinine is a great word
Trollimperator@reddit
maybe read the polls. There is more to say than China > US...
Low-Quality-144@reddit
Mature, professional conduct, they have been reliable. I see no need to continue on with China hate as an Australian. They have put up with some serious shit and their culture is so much older than any of ours.
fiction8@reddit
"Professional conduct"?? Their academic sphere is useless because of rampant cheating and they steal every intellectual property under the sun.
lolidkwtfrofl@reddit
They have put up with some serious shit, most of it self-inflicted.
Honestly, the only good solution to USA decline is Europe becoming stronger, not looking to different masters.
defenestrate_urself@reddit
I wouldn't call being colonised by 8 different countries at various points in history 'most of it self-inflicted'.
lolidkwtfrofl@reddit
I would call the Great Leap Forwardf and the Cultural Revolution self-inflicted.
Compared to that, almost no lives were lost during Western colonialization.
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
That's exactly the ideal situation in a supposed multipolar.
lolidkwtfrofl@reddit
But I see very little movement towards it...
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
"ideal"
ToranjaNuclear@reddit
>Not saying that China are the good guys
I mean, China are assholes to (some of) their neighbours but if you're comparing, bombing the fuck out of countries across the globe and threatening war with allies is maybe slightly worse than attacking fisherman with water hoses.
One is petty, the other is fucking dangerous.
Xanchush@reddit
I mean China's not starting wars left and right. Seems like a decent guy when compared to the US/Israel.
drink_with_me_to_day@reddit
Which is definitely scarrier if you are thinking 100 years in the future instead of Donnies life expectancy
EvidenceBasedSwamp@reddit
yeah in international politics you want predictable, rational, stable so you can make deals
CaptnUchiha@reddit
Stable is the best way to put it
aykcak@reddit
A serial killer with a known MO is way better than a total psycho
NordiskFryserUnion@reddit
They're stable, yes, but they're also footing the Russian bill for the war in ukraine.
SEND_ME_REAL_PICS@reddit
The US loves warmongering. China limits itself to meddling and even then it's not as bad as the CIA.
kyualun@reddit
There never were any good guys.
Prus1s@reddit
Personally never saw China as a threat, luke America is more engraved into our day to day than China…
But “good guys” is subjective, there no real good in the world 😅
lolidkwtfrofl@reddit
Europe's pretty goddamn close buddy.
Ok_Relation7695@reddit
Well mother fucker the USA is certainly not the good guys… and it’s not even fucking close. Just look at recent history.
WongFarmHand@reddit
I guess even an incredibly sinophobic mass media cant force people to ignore that between the US and China only one of them is making credible threats of invading European territory
ThanosDidNadaWrong@reddit
one of them is openly stealing jobs and killing the planet with CO2 emissions. good job!
AwTomorrow@reddit
China has lower pollution per capita than the US and a ton of European countries, and has been the biggest investor in green energy for a while now.
While they’re still dealing with provinces bigger than some European countries that are still very underdeveloped and so reliant on coal etc, they’re putting their money where their mouth is on green transformation.
Da_reason_Macron_won@reddit
...be more specific.
ThanosDidNadaWrong@reddit
one was doing for decades, one just started doing it recently
Bubblez___@reddit
vaguepost king over here
bradicality@reddit
what is bro so afraid of
Emnel@reddit
How is the US "stealing jobs"? Given they have twice the China's CO2 emissions per capita even before we consider that most of what they consume comes from China and goes on their tab.
ThanosDidNadaWrong@reddit
China is producing some 50% more CO2, the number 1. But it's ok, because it stole the production from EU.
Paradoxjjw@reddit
Stole? We willingly handed it over.
Emnel@reddit
While having 4 times the people.
Also they didn't "steal" shit. It was American and European elites who constructed this economic model since it was bringing them more profits while lowering the power of labor.
Yes, it's a problem, but the calls are coming from inside the house.
Pointing finger and shouting "China bad" is stupid at best and propaganda at worst. It's us here in Europe who need to change things.
Illustrious-Run3591@reddit
I genuinely don't know which one you mean lol
ThanosDidNadaWrong@reddit
one was doing it for a long time, one just started doing in in the last few years
Illustrious-Run3591@reddit
Just say what you're thinking ffs 🤣 this isn't the Da Vinci code
TheRicFlairDrip@reddit
One is threatening and the other has already invaded. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
3nterShift@reddit
Genuinely confused by this comment. Which country has started a ground operation on European soil?
Almechik@reddit
I haven't seen many Chinese military bases in Europe tbf
TheRicFlairDrip@reddit
Check who has been buying ports, companies and critical infrastructure around Europe.
elkaki123@reddit
You make it sound nefarious lol
Yeah the ever so scary belt and road, the "Chinese debt trap" where investment by them is always seen as a plot
Not even denying there's always a risk with foreign investment on critical infrastructure, but in no way is that comparable to military bases. Seriously, time and time again this "control" narrative comes out whenever people talk about their investment projects that doesn't come with any other country. Same shit happens in LATAM just in case, with the US telling us which projects "are bad for us"
TheRicFlairDrip@reddit
When P&O was bought by the Emiratis, the US ports under P&O were blocked by the US government.
Da_reason_Macron_won@reddit
My uncle bought some stock in BBVA some months ago. I guess he too is invading Europe.
TheRicFlairDrip@reddit
If he bought majority shares in most of the critical infrastructure then i would be raising eyebrows on him too
austin_8@reddit
That’s a positive for the world, liberal economics has lead to the greatest successes and QOL increases in the history of man, and should remain encouraged. It’s the protectionism and internal economic affairs of China that should be discouraged, not the engagements of free enterprise.
Almechik@reddit
I thought ya'll liked free market capitalism like that?
Omegatherion@reddit
Russia, but thats a topic for another thread
Chipay@reddit
Clearly China, death by microplastics /s
arishtanemi9@reddit
Good that they are finally waking up. If the European nations want to retain their graps on the changing global order they must: 1. Gain energy independence by radically shifting to Nuclear energy. 2. Remilitarizing and removing their defence reliance from NATO which is the extension of US. This includes phasing out US military equipment. 3. Eventually removing the US military bases as they would no longer need US to "protect" themselves. 4. Gain technological sovereignty.
Right now only France is somewhat fulfilling most of these objectives.
P.S.: Once done don't start hating each other.
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Nuclear isn’t the only way for Europe to become energy independence, although any level of renuclearisation would be good. We just need more of everything. More solar, more wind, more tidal, the lot.
Qualanqui@reddit
I don't understand why there isn't more of a push for state-wide rooftop solar roll outs, there's a vast amount of open space generally not doing anything on the vast amount of rooves so why not just put a couple panels on every roof and tie it all into the grid?
It boggles my mind that they use productive land for massive solar farms but this is completely overlooked. If it's done 100% in country it'd be a massive stimulus package via the construction and installation of the panels as well.
arishtanemi9@reddit
While I am surprised to see the difference in how India and Europe have tackled the solar challenge, the bottom line stays, the sun in Europe just sucks. I have been in the UK for the last 7 months and man, never in my life did I evwr think that I as an Indian would ever miss the sun. Idk how much worth it would even be to put in the effort for such low ROI?
Then again is it so that the amount of sunlight in summer can possibly makeup for rest of the year?
Drizzt_1990@reddit
it's the worst way, since we would need constant supply of uranium, which we don't have....
Tsofuable@reddit
Sweden has uranium, but we'd prefer if we didn't have to destroy our country to mine it.
not_not_in_the_NSA@reddit
Both Australia and Canada produce a bunch, and it looks like Poland and Czechia have and some identified resources in them. Also Denmark has some via Greenland. France is a world leader in nuclear fuel recycling too which massively save on uranium usage. So there are many options for both immediate sources and long-term self sufficiency.
PerforatedPie@reddit
We can also build more renewables more quickly and for a lower cost than nuclear. And renewables come on gradually over time, rather than all in one go after delays with nuclear. If the goal is to get off oil, then renewables can do it far quicker.
Ok_Relation7695@reddit
Remiliterizing Europe… Europe will destroy itself if that happens.. historically that’s what happens.
arishtanemi9@reddit
Yup. That's why the P.S. lol
luvsads@reddit
They already hate each other, though. There is no "don't start"
lolidkwtfrofl@reddit
I wouldn't agree with that.
If you asked randos on the street on their opinions about other EU members I doubt there will be much anomity.
balinjerica@reddit
If you asked around Germany or Japan in the early 1920s, you would never expect it would be these people who would try to wipe out several identities and try and conquer vast swaths of land.
People change and they do so mostly as a response to their material conditions, and they do so quickly. You can already see how vanguard reactionary parties are forming, further radicalizing and assisting each other all over Europe. The material conditions are there and are still getting worse. Give it a few years.
Tzarkir@reddit
Only idiots in very far right echo chambers. For most, the relationship is closer to "only I can insult my brother". The animosity against my neighbours is nothing compared to the animosity I would feel against anybody who attacked them.
I'm still upset for the UK dumbasses leaving us. We were much better together.
luvsads@reddit
This just sounds like cope, tbh. European history is mostly internal conflict, with the occasional external threat bringing a few European countries together for a brief time.
Hundreds and hundreds of years of history show that Europe can't be left alone without fighting each other. Add in current, increasing tensions amongst EU members around economics, migration, defense, sovereignty, and general policy, and it becomes even more likely they revert to their old ways.
There hasn't been a moment in time where the EU and greater Europe were heavily militarized and not killing one another.
machado34@reddit
Macron is right about the EU needing an unified army.
RydderRichards@reddit
Nuclear?!
We'd still be dependant on the fuel, have easier targets during war times, and pay more.
Why would we choose that?
Visual-Squirrel3629@reddit
Where would Europe source its Uranium? Hard to be independent when reliant on imports.
I don't see many in Europe supporting this. European militaries will never be able to recruit enough people for their military.
lolidkwtfrofl@reddit
Remilitarization is happening right now. The Bundeswehr for example is AGRESSIVELY recruiting.
Visual-Squirrel3629@reddit
Recruiting efforts don't guarantee recruitment results. For countries with strong welfare systems, there exists little incentives for people to join the armed forces.
The logical end point is either compulsory service terms, or European nations banking their defense on something similar to Iran. Stockpiling drones and missiles to act as a deterrence.
balinjerica@reddit
I suspect the pushing of liberal policies, the rapid deindustrialization and the steady errosion of its overall economic importance will add incentives for people to join EU armies.
I doubt such a world would promote EU cooperation tho. It would more likely turn Europe into the continental version of 19th century Italy.
Sawmain@reddit
Finland already has the compulsory service term fortunately. It’s not very equal between genders because it’s only required for mans which has been concern for little while.
Toen6@reddit
I'm for more development in nuclear energy, but independence? Europe does not have enough uranium to be independent in that way, so, unless you are refering to nuclear fussion, that's not possible in such a way.
Sawmain@reddit
And China has essentially monopoly on solar. And guess who also has monopoly on rare earths which are pretty much mandatory for wind ?
Europe needs to invest much more into green tech research along with other things.
Kheraz@reddit
The eu already has one of the most prominent armies in the world in terms of raw spec. What we lack is a unified military command chain. We don't need to spend more, what we need is to reform the current system to have one big army, and not 27 smaller ones.
I agree with the other point that you made tho.
Legal_Lettuce6233@reddit
That last bit is the hard one due to the bad apples issue the EU has right now with Russian and American interference through Orban and Fico.
blanchinator@reddit
Both are a threat, but China at least has some humility about it. We've accepted that the other superpowers are not aligned with EU values. That doesn't mean we accept verbal threats from arrogant and narcissists.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
Explain how China, which has not dropped a bomb or gone to war in 50 years, is a threat to the West?
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
China keeps putting pressure on its neighbours in order to establish naval dominance of crucial seaways. If they achieve hegemony over a major artery of global trade, that is a threat to anyone who isn’t happy with China.
Sawmain@reddit
Plus literally stealing food aka sea life from its neighbors and threatening one of the most important countries in the world aka Taiwan but sure guys “China isn’t a threat to the west”.
Oh and the forced labor camps.
kinmix@reddit
Does your country recognize Taiwan as a country?
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
No one does, but no one talks about that
defenestrate_urself@reddit
How do you feel about the country of Taiwan having the 2nd biggest distant fishing fleet globally?
For a nation of 23 million people, they own 1/3 of the global long line tuna fishing vessels and export 90% of their catch.
The ain't catching all that around their shore line.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishing_industry_in_Taiwan
AlphaBetaOmegaGamma@reddit
No no no no no, China bad and ebil. Taiwan #1 and wholesome!
juarezselvagem@reddit
So, let me clear, the worst scenario of China is the good ending with the USA? I mean, they literally forced the world to trade only using its currency, only using its banking and petro-currency system, and randomly just want more power over our democracy for whatever reason?
Humm...
r_uan@reddit
It's almost like they are surrounded by military bases from a country openly hostile to them.
GloriousDawn@reddit
That's a lot of "if" to shit on the only superpower behaving rationally and not bombing anyone else unprovoked.
-The_Guy_@reddit
Kinda like what the US is doing with their Oil embargo of Cuba?
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Yeah, and that's pretty fucking threatening, isn't it?
-The_Guy_@reddit
I’m unsure if you’re being sarcastic, but it’s extremely threatening.
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
So, you would agree that the ability to put pressure on global shipping is indeed a threat to Europe, counter to what the commenter I was originally replying to said? I wasn't being sarcastic.
-The_Guy_@reddit
I’m saying be less concerned with what China could theoretically do and focus more on what my country is actively doing in the Caribbean and the Middle East.
knuppan@reddit
And the fishing boats they keep blowing up outside Venezuela.
kinmix@reddit
A quick check of the map of the US military bases in the region suggests, that China would be stupid no to do that...
REKTGET3162@reddit
I don't know man. Maybe China shouldn't have built their country so close to all that American bases.
blanchinator@reddit
China's human rights record is horrific, and they are increasingly dominant on the global stage. Most EU economies are completely dependent on China so it's only a matter of time before these threats proliferate.
As I understand it, China is already a significant cyber security threat.
Ok_Relation7695@reddit
And our western world is a symbol to follow when it comes to human rights.
blanchinator@reddit
While most of it's member states have a shameful history of colonial human rights abuses, if we're strictly refering to 21st century then the EU is arguably leading the superpowers when it comes to human rights. That is why most Europeans oppose the genocide against the Palestinians, and general interference in the middle east. Unfortunately our leadership has been heavily corrupted by Israel and the US.
balinjerica@reddit
In many ways untrue, most europeans are eager hitlerites when it comes to their own backyards and the EU is no-where close to a superpower.
So yes, the EU does less bad than superpowers mostly because it isnt one and simply doesn't have the reach but also because Hitler and the like already happened and solved the EU "Uyghur like" questions by exterminating the unwanted.
martxel93@reddit
Dude… American citizens were shot by the border police in an inland American city while the regime and the mainstream press lied in order to downplay the gravity of it all. Not to mention the building of concentration camps, the horrific treatment of immigrants, rampant police brutality and the constant erosions of power by a corrupt regime.
If the “leaders” of the free world are doing that I I don’t really think we should be looking down on China too much.
presidentiallogin@reddit
Border Patrol will work out of airports. They aren't just on the actual border. No other notes.
Levitz@reddit
You can look down on China a whole lot precisely because when something like that happens, you learn about it, since there's not a fuckload of control around communications in the country.
blanchinator@reddit
One does not vindicate the other. It is well documented that China has been committing genocide for over a decade. Unfortunately the US has decided to go in the same direction and we should treat both of these as active threats to our future.
segalle@reddit
A pretty good indication that information is at least incredibly biased is no sources from the original language or region. The first 40 citations of the uyghur genocida page are al,, except one, us and uk media. The one exception which is radio asia has a wikipedia page which begins with 'the american funded'.
Also there is no evidence of refugee crysis, and as time goes on you can see the story change from genocide to cultural genocide to "bad stuff being done to them".
Also there is evidence of plenty of terrorist attacks from separatist groups of uyghurs from before the news started spreading.
Also there are no evidence of mass graves, transportarion of large groups of people, large areas being abandoned or destroyed and so on, which are all characteristic of genocide.
Did china lay a heavy hand on uyghur? Yes, definetely. Was it heavier than necessary? Probably. Does it fall on the same scale of what is being done to palestine for example? Most definitely not.
By the way considering the separatist nature and the terrorist attacks china probably was slightly lighter handed than the us or the eu.
blanchinator@reddit
I'm very happy to give the award for most genocidal state of the 21st century to Israel, but China's hands are far from clean. I've been to the furthest reaches of china and the level of state control is far beyond anything I've seen in any other country which includes many that would also be nominated for the genocide award. We should be firmly against genocide and authoritarianism, especially when it comes from our historical allies. Using that as a springboard to treat the Chinese government as innocent is playing directly into their hands and exceptionally naive.
Omegatherion@reddit
What about the Xinjiang Police files?
It's a leak from internal Chinese police servers
martxel93@reddit
What vindication? I’m saying that if we’re being that strict about China let’s apply the same standards, it not stricter ones. to our allies, shouldn’t we?
blanchinator@reddit
I completely agree
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Casual tier whataboutism. The USA seriously infringing on its citizens’ liberties does not make China’s treatment of minorities not a serious issue, especially for what it means for a Chinese-led global order.
Like, if you’re concerned about the US’ police brutality and the building of concentration camps, you probably shouldn’t dismissive the estimated million Uyghurs put into detention without charges.
Valoneria@reddit
The sino-vietnamese war is less than 50 years old.
And the flare-up conflicts that followed even less so.
Their coast guard constantly attack other fishing vessels, often Philippine vessels.
And they are no Saints on the Indian border either, to the point that both sides had to de-arm to ensure no fatalities (although plenty injured)
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
wow you really got me!
48 years then
aravena@reddit
Literally bullying and attacking Filipino ships last year. Go drink somewhere and stop acting like you know anything.
Valoneria@reddit
Yeah, because the conflicts in between surely doesnt count either because it wasnt a "fullscale war", just special military operations right ?
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
The last time China went to war was 48 years ago, you just said this yourself. Now you're moving goalposts
Valoneria@reddit
Im just helping you move the goal posts back that you moved away in the first place. You stated war or dropped bombs, and China definitely dropped a lotnofnoedinance during their continued border skirmish with Vietnam, which lasted well into the early 1990's before China fully withdraw their forces in 1991 (although large scale conflict had long since petered out at this point, and the latest larger scale conflict was in 1988)
Cohibaluxe@reddit
I think you’ll find you said dropped a bomb or gone to war. Now who’s moving the goalposts?
While it’s true China has avoided full-scale war for nearly 50 years, there was still fairly large-scale armed battles as recently as 1988 (the Johnson South Reef Skirmish). From 1984 to 1989, the PLA fired over 2 million rounds of artillery in Vietnam. That’s 37 years ago.
But to be fair, and what I think you’re trying to say, is that for a global superpower, China is abnormally retiscant of using might makes right towards other nations. Not to say they don’t bother the nations around them, but when they do it’s not a race to bomb the other off the map.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
That's actually very fair and I will concede that point regarding bombs! Thanks for the honest good faith engagement
Ok_Relation7695@reddit
Oh fuck.. oh no China is the bad guys.. now tell me about Denmark and the wars they’ve participated in? Tell me about the terrorist attacks on Libya and how much it destabilized the region and opened the flood gates of immigrants. You fools support the same bullshit that lead to things that you have an issue with then complain. 100% Hippocrates.
Valoneria@reddit
Good ol' whataboustism.
martxel93@reddit
None of that happens in European soil, though.
I imagine that your list is just a fraction of Chinese abuses but from my limited view it seems that the US has always been the worse actor. It’s just that the masks are off now so they don’t even bother to whitewash their Empire through Pax Americana.
Valoneria@reddit
Nor did i state that it was on European soil, as that wasnt what i was refuting. He stated they havent gone to war or dropped bombs, period, in 50 years. And that is blatantly false. Had the limited it to be on European soil, then fair game, Europe and China hasnt had that kind of conflict for a very long time (if ever, in a meaningful capacity)
martxel93@reddit
I see, thanks for clarifying.
cantfocuswontfocus@reddit
They're not a threat to Europe but they're a threat to their SEA neighbors. Sabre rattling in Vietnam and attacking philippine coast guard ships in Philippine waters. Not to mention the absurd 9 dash line.
knuppan@reddit
With water cannons. While the US blows up fishing boats with their drones.
Are you even trying?
cantfocuswontfocus@reddit
While actively harming coast guard personnel, of whom lost a fingen. Also worth noting China regularly targets filipino fishing boats. Are YOU even trying? Or are you just against imperialism if the US does it?
Comfortable_Tart_297@reddit
The South China Sea dispute started in 1947 when the ruling Kuomintang published the eleven-dash line. The dispute has been ongoing before PRC came into power. All the neighboring countries -- Vietnam, China, Philippines, Brunei, Taiwan and Malaysia -- have territorial disputes with one another. But the west often portrays it only as a dispute between China and the other five.
NerdPunkFu@reddit
China is suppliig the guy who is dropping bombs on Europe right now. China is also carrying out multiple genocides and ethnic cleanings at home and is poised to tank the global economy in a war of expansion.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
You still buying this tripe? you know that China one month free visa travel to everybody in the European Union so that you can go and see with your own eyes that that is a load of crap as I did
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
You were allowed to visit the Xinjiang internment camps? That’s extraordinary, please say more.
AlphaBetaOmegaGamma@reddit
Okay brother, book a trip to Gaza and let me know if you have to look under the rug to see the genocide.
China has reeducation centers for ETIM militants that are adjacent to islamist organizations after they have carried out multiple bombings and attempts at separatism. What would you prefer them to do? Bomb them like Western countries do?
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
One million Uyghers are adjacent to Islamic terrorism? And that terrorism is best countered by demolishing houses of worship and (allegedly, because the CPC doesn’t let anyone investigate,) sterilising women en masse?
This idea that a genocide has to look like Gaza has no basis in reality. Of course crimes conducted internally by a state with tight information control is going to look different to one done alongside an international war.
Good job sticking to the party line though! Bountiful social credit to you and your family.
splader@reddit
So out of curiosity, do you think mosques are banned or have the be underground in China?
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Did I say that? No. I said that they've demolished Uygher mosques, which there is ample evidence of.
splader@reddit
So there are no Uygher mosques still in use today?
What's an Uygher mosque?
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Is there a point to all these leading questions, or are you just looking for an argument?
woundsofwind@reddit
I think not understanding that Uyghur is a culture not a religion says all people need to know about your knowledge on this topic.
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
... What? If I say 'A Spanish church,' does that mean that 'Spanish' is the religion, or that 'Spanish' is the culture of the people who built the church? The Uyghurs are majority Islamic. They build mosques and those mosques can be referred to as 'Uyghur mosques.' This is just how the English language works.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
Oh you believe the social credit score nonsense as well? You didn't just drink all the Kool-Aid, you bought the factory
martxel93@reddit
You mean the guy EU members are buying gas from?
RandomGuyPii@reddit
does the constant saber rattling at friends of the west in the pacific not mean anything to you?
how about them subsuming the previous democratic hong kong into their system
-Recouer@reddit
That's not a threat to the European Union though. Only to US vested interests in the region.
Valoneria@reddit
Some vested EU interest as well i suppose, they are one of the largest supplier of processing chips in the world.
-Recouer@reddit
As long as they don't raze the cities to the ground there's no reason to believe we wouldn't be able to buy chips anymore.
RandomGuyPii@reddit
china won't raze the fabs to the ground
they won't need to
the first thing that taiwan would do in the case of an invasion would be to raze the fabs themselves to stop them falling into china's hands
after that it's quite likely they'd set up their new operations in the US, so if you dislike your country's reliance on the US now, wait until that happens
-Recouer@reddit
I don't think that's going to happen. At least not from Taiwan. The US tho
RandomGuyPii@reddit
looking into it, TMSC themselves just stat that they have a way to remotely disable the fabs, not outright destroy them
In general, it is in Taiwan's interest to make sure that their chip manufacturing doesn't survive a chinese invasion - it's one less reason for china to invade them and it means that the rest of the world has an economic incentive to help keep them independent
-Recouer@reddit
Yes disabling it seems more likely.
Although I don't think that's going to stop china anyways.
Squat_TheSlav@reddit
As opposed to the land of the free dropshipping "democracy" all over the place while everyone's prices go up
RandomGuyPii@reddit
deflection, my comment was about china, not the united states, in a direct response to a question about how china is a threat to the west.
IdiAmini@reddit
That's not deflection though. The topic in this comment section here is a,comparison between China and the US and in my opinion the UScis always bigger threat.
Question: How many innocent civilians from other countries has China bombed or murdered? And how many the US?
It's not even close
thedefenses@reddit
Add in being aggressive towards their neighbors in every way outside of just declaring war.
RandomGuyPii@reddit
that's true they've got that weird kinda war going on with india don't they?
oh I guess i should have also added them subsuming tibet
and the whole ughyr genocide thing
the neat part about china being a surveillance state without free press is that they get to cover up all the stuff they do within their borders
thedefenses@reddit
A "no guns but everything else goes" border war/conflict with India yes.
There is also a lot of incidents on the seas of Chinese patrol boats ramming fishers from other nations even though they are fishing in either international OR their own countries waters.
China also is building artificial islands and claiming they expand their sea borders.
Also claiming a huge chunks of the seas around them based on old maps that have no effect anymore.
Add in trying to snuff out any kind of independence or freedom from Hong Kong with laws, police and surveillance.
Kiboune@reddit
By this logic, USA should be hated just as same as China
RandomGuyPii@reddit
well most of the people saying that china is fine and dandy hate the USA already so I don't see that being an issue
GreeboBirb@reddit
I wouldn't call a crown colony "democratic"
Anxious_Katz@reddit
Would you care to explain what "European Values"™ even are? Because so far from your conduct on the international stages it's been: following whatever the Americans are doing but after sending them strongly worded letters of condemnation.
blanchinator@reddit
Unfortunately our governments have been corrupted by the US and Israel but these decisions are generally not supported by the population and most of us are waiting for the next election to bring in leaders with a moral compass.
I would say EU values are centred around a greater emphasis on human rights, equality, and quality of life than in the other super powers.
We aren't perfect by any standard, but a quick visit to any other global superpower makes us realise why these values are worth fighting for.
balinjerica@reddit
Well, human rights dissapear the moment the US is not there to do the bombing for us. It is a cheap trick.
We can pretend we are magicaly superior because the US does the killing for us.
It is also funny how the fact we can agree we did horrible stuff in the past is now used as the source of our moral superiority and is here to completely absolve us for new bads we do.
We will yell how bad imigrants and random protestors are treated in the US or how Uyghurs are treated in China but will idle by as the Roma or now certain Muslim Nationals are born into systems, that are even more discriminatory than what I mentioned, destined for a life-time of misery.
Noone asks for perfection, but talking with Europeans it is obvious the American right walked so our right could run. Most of the MAGA larpers online are actually Europeans acting out their fantasies in the online space. It seems EU values are all what you mentioned above, but more in the old National-Socialist way, for me and not for the.
2stepsfromglory@reddit
China is not much of a threat to us, as their only interest is trade. The US on the other hands treats us as vassals, and is responsible for several refugee crisis we then have to deal with after their constant quackmires in the Middle East, have tried to kneecap any chance we could to have good relationships with China and has our governments completely infested by sycophants, lickspittles and sepoys that we like to call "atlantists", whose only interests are benefiting the US over their own countries.
Medical_Officer@reddit
The EU leaders are more willing to have the Americans defecate in their mouths than to shake hands with China.
aravena@reddit
Valid for those that know and smart enough to not be Trump that thinks they're invincible. I only see 2 outcomes from all this that would make sense and validate Trump's actions but I don't think anyone there is smart enough to come up with this or convince him to do it.
blanchinator@reddit
For now...
NerdPunkFu@reddit
IDK, not getting invaded and genocided is a quite nice benefit from atlantilisim from my point of view.
Davies301@reddit
China prefers economic dominance where they just make countries reliant on their goods. The US is like a rampaging toddler who has not got their bottle before bed.
teheditor@reddit
If China didn't have its stupid issues with Taiwan, it would have many more people looking to it as the leader of the world. Its fixation on Taiwan keeps it looking like a backwards, wannabe Empire.
coleto22@reddit
Yeah, and I'm one of them. China has not threatened us with annexation. China has not started wars since 1979.
USA and Israel are the threats to peace, not China.
Dunedune@reddit
China along with Israel has consistently been annexing or threatening to annex its neighbours...
MeetYourCows@reddit
All of them are internationally recognized Chinese territory well before any 'annexation' took place. This is like saying Ukraine is threatening to annex Crimea or Donbas.
ImpossibleDragonfly@reddit
Hong Kong wasn't annexed. It was under British administration up until 1997 when their 99 year lease ran out.
Dunedune@reddit
I'm obviously not referring to 1997 but to the more recent takeover and violation of its autonomy
AlphaBetaOmegaGamma@reddit
Pretty ironic to say that while Northern Ireland is still a thing.
ImpossibleDragonfly@reddit
I usually think of annexation as using the military to acquire new territory through means of force rather than the government expanding the scope of its own power against the law.
Describing HK situation as an annexation sounds about as weird as saying the US is annexing Minneapolis using ICE.
Dunedune@reddit
Tibet and HK definitely used a lot of force on a land said force had no such authority on.
Hitler annexed Austria without the use of military so your definition is probably a bit off
ImpossibleDragonfly@reddit
Its true that no shots were exchanged between Austria and Germany, however Hitler had marched an army through the country after making numerous threats to take it by force.
The main distinction that makes something an "annexation" to me is the incorporation of territory into your national borders and it usually is done by force. I agree that Tibet was an annexation, but Hong Kong is already well within China's national borders.
Dunedune@reddit
Alright, fair
lolidkwtfrofl@reddit
China is much more of an economic threat than a military one, true.
teo_vas@reddit
China does not have any imperialistic ambition. all the issues China has is with their neighbours. the most you can call it, it is local imperialism. if the US tries to strain the situation even further maybe we could see countries asking China for military help or China establish military presence outside of the country. so far the only military base China has, outside the country, is one in Djibouti. also, so far, China negotiates with rationalism and mutual agreement.
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Yes, the belts and roads initiative is done wholly out of the goodness of Xi’s heart, and is not at all a very transparent bit of neocolonialism.
‘China negotiates with rationalism and mutual agreement.’ Are those the names of PLAN destroyers sailing across the Nine Dash Line?
defenestrate_urself@reddit
Why would any country do anything 'out of the goodness of their heart'? It's trade and business. By it's definitional a trade happens when it's mutually beneficial. Many in the Global South have little access to capital markets to develop their country because no one is willing to lend at a reasonable rate because of the risk profile.
The BRI is a far better deal than the IMF or World Bank and these nations know it.
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
… Are you under the impression I was being serious when I said that Xi was doing it out the goodness of his heart? No, obviously it’s beneficial to China. My point is that neocolonialism doesn’t require regime changes or invasions or military bases.
China is a major global power that’s very invested in solidifying its power, and it does so in a way that is colonialist. It imposes itself on its neighbours using its militaries. It funds the military junta in Myanmar, it holds over 75% of Laos’ public debt, it uses the B&R initiative to increase its soft power and extend the reach of Chinese industrial interests.
We can talk all day on if China’s power is a better or worse deal for other countries, but let’s at least call a duck a duck when it’s walking, quacking and flapping like one.
defenestrate_urself@reddit
Colonialism would assume a loss of sovereignty, if two nations enter into an agreement of their own volition I don't see how that is defined as colonialism.
As for Myanmar, China has a non interventionist policy, they will transact with whoever is in power, the Junta in this case. They actually had an improving relationship with the Aung Sang Suu Kyi and didn't support the take over. From their perspective, the most important thing is a stable relationship with their border neighbours. They have to engage the Junta if nothing else but to stamp down on the border scam centres.
https://www.crisisgroup.org/brf/asia/north-east-asia/china-myanmar/b179-scam-centres-and-ceasefires-china-myanmar-ties-coup
I don't know where you got your debt figure from for Laos. They recently build the Laos high speed rails but 75% seemed too big to me, the most recent IMF report (2025) says it's 34.5% and that figure I might add included a 5 year period of interest payment deferrement by China. Hardly what a colonialist would do, surely they would seize some laotian asset instead.
https://www.elibrary.imf.org/view/journals/002/2026/050/article-A003-en.xml
teo_vas@reddit
yeah because China flooded the belts and roads countries with Chinese military bases. or China used the belts and roads to establish puppet governments.
yeah I was referring to the trade negotiations with Europe.
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
So it can only be colonialism when there are military bases? Seems like a pretty arbitrary place to draw the line.
AlphaBetaOmegaGamma@reddit
Colonialism is the practice of a foreign power exercising political, economic, and cultural domination over a territory and its indigenous population, usually involving settler occupation and resource exploitation.
If it doesn't involve settler occupation nor resource exploitation from the indigenous population, it's not colonialism. If merely trading is colonialism then the US is far more colonialist than China.
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Discussions on ‘neocolonialism’ are seventy years old at this point. You yourself both say that colonialism ‘usually’ involves settler occupation, before immediately negating that.
China holding 70% of Laos’ entire national debt is colonial behaviour. China supporting the Myanmar junta is colonial behaviour. The CPC forcibly Sinicizing minoritie is colonial behaviour.
Levitz@reddit
No, China does what it can with what it has. Which at this point in time is colonization through trade.
If you think that in a world in which China has the type of military the US does they don't abuse the fuck out of it you are naive.
teo_vas@reddit
how can you dominate trade when there are so many other countries with strong trade? trade is a two way street. if all the other countries are poor then there is no one to export to.
you are ignorant. I'm not naive. you are projecting what China will do if it was acting as the US.
neatdude73@reddit
The way it works is china manufactures a bunch of stuff and then cheaply sells it to other countries. Now these other countries are dependent on these imports from china. So while dealing with these countries in the future, china holds extra cards since the other countries can't risk china cutting off the exports. So for example, chinese hardware is pretty cheap so you find it in many SEA and south asian countries. So those countries don't wanna piss off china since they're dependent on those imports.
You can see something similar with the EU and russia. In 2022 invasion of ukraine, the EU wants to sanction russia to pressure it to stop the invasion but can't do so since it's dependent on russian oil imports.
In simple terms, you dominate trade by being an exporter to other countries. That's why countries try to reduce imports from countries they don't trust because there is the very real chance that it'll bite them in the ass in the future.
Another example: If china invades taiwan in the future, other SEA countries might try to pitch in in defence but might be deferred from doing so since they import a lot from china.
Levitz@reddit
That's so weird, why would they insist on industrial espionage if trade is a two way street anyway? Are they stupid?
ImpossibleDragonfly@reddit
We've all seen how much damage could be done by blocking a single strait. China has that same vulnerability with the strait of Malacca.
Belt and Road is partially motivated to provide an alternative way for China to ship goods and oil in the event that a hostile country blocks the strait.
Paradoxjjw@reddit
The US threatened death and destruction towards us not even 3 months ago. Don't know about you guys but I prefer the country not threatening to kill us.
Kaskelontti@reddit
China is a brutal dictatorship that is now watching as Western countries teeter on the brink of collapse. While it is said that Russia cannot be trusted, China is to be feared. China has been waiting for the moment when Western countries collapse due to internal divisions.
MaestroRozen@reddit
China might be many things, but stupid isn't one of them - which can't be said for the US these days. They actually understand how to maintain mutually beneficial relationships with other countries instead of deluding themselves that the world needs them more than they need the world.
So yes, if I have to choose between two morally corrupt superpowers I'll gladly take the one whose head of state doesn't change opinions more often than he does underwear, that honors the deals it makes, does not actively threaten allies on a whim and does not start moronic wars with global consequences.
SilverBuggie@reddit
I have a hard time believing Europe can get over their preference for a country led by bad white people instead of a country led by slightly less bad Asian people.
thedefenses@reddit
With China they are being aggressive towards their neighbors, sabre rattling against the west and threaths and demands towards Taiwan but at least they seem to follow most deals they make and act in an intelligent way, one can try to predict what they will do based on what would be best for them.
USA currently does none of this, breaks deals made whenever they want, starts random wars for no reason even bypassing their own congress, kidnappings, threats towards their own "allies".
While China is a threat yes but at least they are a threat we can negotiate with, reason with and try to predict, USA is just a barrel full of loaded guns that go off randomly against anyone and anything while shouting "FREEDOM, DEMOCRACY, USA, USA, RELIGION, WOKE" and assuming people still take the seriously.
ScaryShadowx@reddit
China is being aggressive towards their neighbors who are acting as proxy military bases for the US and who the US is looking to use to contain China. Let China set up military bases across the Caribbean and Central America and see how friendly the US will be towards those countries or set up military bases across Northern Africa and see how friendly Europe would be.
The sabre rattling has always come from the West, primarily the US, who wants to use their military might to scare China in being subservient to US economic interests. The US wanted to use the same playbook used in Japan to destroy their economy so that there is not a rival, however China has mainly planned for this and was able to avoid a significant amount of economic impact. Now the US wants to use it's military to scare China into compliance, but given how the Iran war went, and that China is definitely not Iran, the US probably knows how any war with China would look.
AlphaBetaOmegaGamma@reddit
That's exactly what the Cuban Missile Crisis was about and they got blockaded, the world almost ended and they are still embargoed 60+ years later.
ChillAhriman@reddit
Unpopular opinion, but I absolutely want the EU to drop the alliance with the US and seek better relations with China.
China is remarkably passive with its neighbours for the standards of a superpower. Look at the history of interventions of the USSR and Russia in Eastern Europe, northern Middle East and Central Asia; the history of the US in Europe, Latin America and the Middle East; the history of GB in... Gestures very broadly.
They want to annex Taiwan, and that's bad, but from their perspective, Taiwan has never stopped being part of their country. It's still part of the rationale of a very average geopolitical actor, and according to the international laws we've supposedly been following since WWII, it's a legitimate claim, and it isn't grounds to believe that they'll become the 40s Germany. Apart from that, what's the worst that China is doing in the international stage? Bullying their neighbours' fishing areas, and staging periodic stick combats with India. The latter is laughable and deserves no further comment. Their neighbours' complaints about fishing violations are completely legitimate, but literally half the EU is doing it to African countries (and Spanish fishing vessels are notoriously on it too), and I'm not about to argue for leaving the EU over it. The world is a terrible place right now, and I just don't think it's practical to set the red line there as of today, even if I agree that Europe and China are definitely on the wrong on this issue. The worst thing you can blame them of is supplying Russia; but if I was China, my main geopolitical rival was the US, and the EU was tightly allied and even subservient to the US at all levels, I would be supplying Russia too. If the EU was independent enough, we would be able to negotiate the Eurasian balance of power with China on very different conditions.
Then you have the democracy/civil/political liberties issue. I'm pro-democracy, but taking an interventionist attitude where we refuse to deal with non-democratic countries is a dumb position that no one's really following. Imposing democracy tends to work very poorly if the local population wasn't already trying to achieve it, we have no means of provoking regime change in China, and we have excellent commercial and diplomatic relations with half the dictatorships in the Arab world, so please don't act like pro-liberal-democracy-jingoism isn't just propaganda at the service of Western capital. China is slowly evolving into becoming more socially egalitarian, with LGBT acceptance growing at rates that are very similar to historical developments in Western Europe, and their government is getting relaxed in the enforcement of the Great Firewall to the point that millions of Chinese people use VPNs on a daily basis. Their lack of political liberties is bad, but right now their model seems to be working great for them and it's difficult to find Chinese people in China who want revolution rather than reform. I believe their system will eventually result in enough corruption that will bite them in the ass, but that will be their own battle to face.
The real problem we should be confronting is the fact that they have a plan, and we don't. China is conquering the global EV vehicles market like they're being led by Genghis Khan, they have invested globally in the resources and infrastructure they need for their production chains, they've put themselves in a strategic place of the global economy that is even a little bit scary, given how well they have executed it from a position of disadvantage. But it's been legitimate play and any country that was trying to improve the lives of hundreds of millions of their own citizens while having limited resources at home would have done either that, or attempted to invade their neighbours. So now we find that German car manufacturers can't compete because they were too busy lobbying for preferential domestic regulations rather than investing into new tech, that China is competing with US in the global smartphone market while we're a zero to the left, that they have their own software ecosystem while ours is incredibly dependent on the US, and it is all our own fault.
Europe needs to seek a partnership between equals with China, because it's no longer possible to understand the global economy without recognizing the role they play, but instead we'll play a repetition of our relationship with the United States: we'll get late to the party only when it's impossible to continue denying the obvious, led by people without strategic vision, we'll be infighting for over 20 particularist interests, with politicians far too invested into repaying favors to their lobbying domesting elites, and believing that we can regulate our way out of irrelevance when we no longer control our share of the economy.
AlphaBetaOmegaGamma@reddit
Basadisimo.
3nterShift@reddit
China is a dictatorship with a sophisticated surveillance apartatus.
Now that I got that out of the way, if you look at recent geopolitics, the threat to European countries from the US ranged all from causing an oil and gas shortage to straight up invading and annexing your territory.
The threat from China is flooding your market with cheap electric vehicles.
Ok_Relation7695@reddit
Its not a dictatorship… why the fuck are you coming here with cnn talking points and Cold War propaganda
elkaki123@reddit
Bro no need to be obtuse, you can consider china to not be as nefarious as people make it seems, while at the seem time recognizing it's not a democracy.
It's a one party state, by law other parties are more than heavily restricted, civil liberties are pretty flawed, etc. At most it's a broken democracy, calling it an authoritarian government (imo this fits them better) is not wrong and a dictatorship isn't much of an stretch, it isn't like its baseless or without merit.
IdiAmini@reddit
China itself calls its form of governance a "democratic dictatorship". Covers it quite nicely I would say
elkaki123@reddit
If I'm not wrong that has more to do with them posturing as "dictatorship of the proletariat", but honestly I don't think how they define themselves matter too much since they also call themselves a "true popular democracy"
IdiAmini@reddit
So why do people call the US a representative democracy when thry don't represent shit?
Hypocrisy again?
elkaki123@reddit
?
Why put words in my mouth, had you asked I would have said the US has a flawed democracy by design, although not authoritarian by nature (but the current admin does seem to want to go there).
At the end of the day it doesn't matter what the US calls itself, there are measurements and studies on how well countries live up to that, I think that's a better metric that internal naming conventions.
And people in the US usually emphasize they are a republican democracy to justify the clear flaws their democracy has at the federal level, still not authoritarian but you are free to make your case.
Really not sure what the hypocrisy is supposed to be here, mind making the connection explicit?
IdiAmini@reddit
You are both wrong though. China itself calls it's form of governance a "democratic dictatorship" so why don't you just call it what China calls it?
3nterShift@reddit
Ah sorry, it's a "democracy with 'dissappear forever if you speak out against the party' characteristics"
Ok_Relation7695@reddit
Are we talking about democracy? Or communism or some other ways of governing. You are still stuck in the Cold War propaganda. Countries should be free to do whatever kind of political system they want. You need to accept that - it suppose to go with this so called «western freedom».
Levitz@reddit
I swear to god I hope you guys are at least getting paid for this shit lmfao
0hran-@reddit
Cheap solar panels too. And they can only do so because we seem not interested in protecting our own industries, nor investing in new technology.
teo_vas@reddit
Europe thrived on trade because we managed to import cheap stuff to make other stuff that we could sell at much higher price and make a profit. yes, we need to be vigilant but importing cheap stuff to transform them to expensive stuff and profit is much better than make expensive stuff to transform them to other expensive stuff and profit less.
0hran-@reddit
This was the original theory of comparative advantage. But it fails to account for the type of technology that we would specialise in and the effect it would have on the general population.
-High value industries rely on a vast network of suppliers and do create a high level of income. Those are more concentrated geographically however.
-Low value industries employ low skilled workers, and employ in all the territory.
Replacing low value industries by high value industries creates wealth inequality.
Furthermore those high value industries rely on a network of suppliers many of which are low value industries. This mean that foreign countries can upgrade their industries and accumulate those key components until they become more competitive than our industries and then they can compete in our markets with finish goods.
lolidkwtfrofl@reddit
Yea the idea of fair trade doesn't really work if one side refuses to compete fairly.
Draxx01@reddit
I mean there's a chunk of that but tbh it's overall going to be endemic to favoring say a 20 year long term use of capital over a next year/quarter growth model. SEOs don't care if US get's 20% ROI short term when they're able to prioritize say long term goals that pay out better in 5+ years and keep doing it for 20+ years. It's anathema to ppl beholden to yearly earning reports. That's the bigger elephant in the room that needs to be addressed. The CN stock market is very much underdeveloped and CEOs aren't slaves to yearly ROI and able to favor long term outlooks vs short term gains. SEOs also just favor keeping productivity up and employment up over massive profits. Still in the black? who cares if profits are down 10%. No reason for layoffs cause that causes bigger shocks and then unemployment numbers look bad.
It's 2 ppl playing 2 diff games with 2 different goals. One's playing hungry hungry hippo and the other is playing Monopoly and intending to get Broadway and Park Place.
OptimisticRealist__@reddit
I mean no surprise. China doesnt want war, they want business and money and taiwan. But other than that they are pretty chill if you mind your business, they will mind theirs.
Sprintzer@reddit
Not surprised, I mean with the current US of A it is objectively true. China is only a significant threat to the US (and other superpowers or emerging superpowers, I.e. India)
Psynaut@reddit
As an American I feel the same way. If I had to pick the country whose actions are most likely to result in me getting blown up by a nuke, it would be the actions of the US. We are reckless bullies, out of control, irrational, and angry at everyone and everything for no reason. We are now just as religiously fanatical, from a government policy perspective, as the people we have been at war with for 25 years. We act like the kid that got bullied. We as a country are that cop in the YouTube videos who clearly got into law enforcement for the power because he was disrespected too much in high school. Except all the disrespect and bullying is imaginary Christian victim-hood persecution mentality, that doesn't even exist. We are pathetic.
EasterZombie@reddit
The entire history of China is China fracturing and reforming within a fairly consistent region, +/- a few hundred miles. There is a lot of historical record going back thousands of years of Chinese leadership considering expanding into colonialism or conquering far off lands and every time the answer was basically “why would we do that, we are in the best region in all of earth”. Compare that to the American record of manifest destiny, imperialism, and colonialism. China is definitely a threat to smaller nations, as any self-interested large country is, but if you aren’t one of Chinas direct neighbors I don’t see China ever going out of its way to conquer you like the USA has attempted in the Middle East or the Europeans in Africa.
Djonso@reddit
yeah. China is an authoritarian state with huge human rights violations but at least they mess with their own people and leave us alone. US is the same except they also are trying to turn us into them. And rob as of course
orangotai@reddit
idk how we get out of this honestly? i remember in 2008 after the Bush years we were hated: ffs we literally invaded & destabilized two countries and caused a global recession, but then we had Obama come in and it felt like we turned the page with ourselves & with the world. now we can't pull that trick again, i just hope our Allies realize America's more than it's President and politicians.
Dotura@reddit
You are also the 1/3 that voted for the asshole and 1/3 that found him not bad enough to vote against.
VladimiroPudding@reddit
Would be nice if Americans wake up and realized you guys don't have "allies" anymore. The US clearly treat other countries as vassal states.
Well, perhaps we can say Russia, Israel and GCC countries are the ally, but surely not Europe.
Blackout38@reddit
Not that surprising since the US wants them to cut their social programs and invest in their defenses. China is not asking for that but I’m sure they also have no need to ask potential rival to build defenses.
d1ngal1ng@reddit
Blackout38@reddit
That’d certainly be nice too
Legal_Lettuce6233@reddit
China mostly doesn't want to cause issues for one of their biggest consumers. They want my money, not my life. I can't say if that holds true for their neighbours, but Europe isn't being made less safe and secure by China's existence, while America is actively ruining Europe.
lolidkwtfrofl@reddit
They're both incredibly beneficial and at the same time damaging to Europe's economy. China through competition and the US through hare-brained diplomacy.
Legal_Lettuce6233@reddit
Competition is healthier long term though. If VW wants to keep making overpriced horseshit cars, then they deserve to fail.
I'd rather have China blow VW out of the water so they finally get their heads out of their asses than have VW keep stagnating and blowing prices up.
lolidkwtfrofl@reddit
Yes, competition between fair competitors is great for everyone.
The problem is, China is not interested in fair competition, they are interested in domination.
Legal_Lettuce6233@reddit
Sure, but that can be mitigated with regulation and local companies actually giving better value.
New Polo costs more than a new Golf a few gens back.
lolidkwtfrofl@reddit
VW is not fair to compare to BYD anyways, you should compare them with Skoda in any case.
But it doesn't matter, the competitive edge BYD has is not made naturally, it's a mixture of underpaying their people, getting help from the gov (their factory is built on gifted land), all things VW (or any european OEM) doesn't get.
Legal_Lettuce6233@reddit
Sure, but why should someone here, making shitty amounts of money, spend more on a European made car vs a better Chinese car?
It's easy to say "just spend more" but that's not the real world. Most people here buy 2nd hand cars anyways.
lolidkwtfrofl@reddit
Chinese cars are not all better and not even all cheaper.
This is exactly why you can't offload the choice to singular consumers. It's the same thing with software really, these business practices of gaining market share at all costs are really nothing new.