Is there a good middle ground between ebike and e-motorcycle?
Posted by Rainbird2003@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 50 comments
I’m looking to invest in an ebike to replace my car, mostly to get around my town, get to the bus stop, and to do delivery driving in the local area. Especially with fuel being so expensive lately, it seems like a good investment to make. Is there a good middle to be found between ebike and electric motorcycle/scooter? Something that can realistically be driven on the road, even if it’s in the bike lane, and is fast enough to be able to do delivery is ideal. But I also like the flexibility of a pushbike because you don’t need to worry about parking or staying on the road when there’s traffic.
Anything above 50cc in my state (south australia) needs a motorbike license. It doesn’t bother me, I have the time to invest. And I’m prepared to save for something a bit more expensive if it’s what I need. I’m just not very familiar with things like battery power and how fast 100cc or 250cc would be in practice. Any pointers would be great. I hope you don’t mind an absolute beginner asking questions. Thank you.
deck_hand@reddit
In my experience, an e-bike is a bicycle, rides like a bicycle, moves at bicycle speeds, etc. Anything more powerful is an e-motorcycle. The crossover point is the top end of what an e-bicycle legally is: around 28 mph. Actually, for me, the European definition of an e-bike using a top end speed of 25 kph makes a lot of sense. I enjoy riding my bicycle at a max speed of about 15 mph (just under 25 kph).
When I first bought an e-bike, I got the fastest speed I could get at the time, a Class III ebike limited at 28 mph. It topped out at about 25, pushing 1000 watts through the motor. I rarely used it at that speed. Mostly, I kept it in Eco Mode and rode it at darn near the minimum speed the system would allow, which was 12 to 15. Then, just because I wanted a bike that felt more like a bicycle, I bought a bike with a torque sensor, and can easily pedal much more slowly, even down to 5 or 7. I find that I'm a bicycle rider who likes a little bit of extra help from time to time.
I also have a motorcycle. It's a big bike, 1800cc, and I've had all sorts of motorcycles, from 90cc all the way up. I had a 150cc scooter for a few years, and really loved the small frame and easy ride. An electric scooter that would match the 150cc to 300cc gas bikes (maybe 250cc) would be ideal for riding when I'm not wanting to slowly pedal along. It would keep up with traffic everywhere but the expressway, and would allow me to run to the grocery store, commute to work, etc.
I have a "stand on" electric scooter that has two 1000 watt motors. It's faster than is safe to ride that platform. We can go 40 mph on that stupid thing. Yeah, silly grins and all, but both my wife and I have taken some serious spills on them, causing ourselves damage. So, there's the brackets. Fifteen hundred to maybe 3000 watts for an e-moto for around town, in whatever look you're interested in.
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the advice. I learned since posting that there’s a 25km limit on e-bikes in Australia, where anything sold is required to have a failsafe that actually switches off the power when it reaches that speed; frustrating. It’s looking like an e-scooter or motorbike is better for me.
RipOk3600@reddit
You aren’t going to like the e-scooter laws any more than you do the ebike ones
“Personal Mobility Devices (PMD), including e-scooters, will be legal to use in South Australia from Sunday 13 July 2025.
All riders must follow the rules to keep everyone safe, including:
be aged 16 years or over always wearing a helmet never riding while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Failure to do so could result in hefty fines and loss of demerit points.
It is against the law to ride an e-scooter or other PMD on public land if it doesn't meet South Australian device requirements.
PMD A legal PMD is a device which:
has at least one wheel is designed for one person is propelled by an electric motor is 45kg or less can stop using brakes, gears or motor control has no sharp protrusions meets electrical safety standards is no more than 125cm long, 70cm wide and 135cm high must have a bell, horn or similar warning device in working order. Examples of devices that could be PMDs include e-scooters, e-skateboards and e-solo-wheels.
A PMD fitted with a seat is legal to ride provided it meets the requirements.
The following vehicles or devices are not PMDs:
vehicles with pedals motorised mobility devices, such as mobility scooters or motorised wheelchairs wheeled recreational devices without a motor, such as skateboards, roller skates and foot scooters any electric powered device designed for one person that does not fit within the requirements listed above. You don't need a licence to ride a PMD in South Australia and you don’t need to register your device. However, heavy penalties can apply if you do not follow the rules.
If you ride a PMD while affected by alcohol or drugs you can be charged and may have to go to court.
PMD rules PMD riders must:
be aged 16 years or over wear a helmet use flashing or steady front and rear lights if riding at night or in low light park responsibly in a location that does not disrupt pedestrians or pose a safety hazard keep to approved areas if using a hired e-scooter. You can legally ride a PMD:
on footpaths, shared paths, beaches and road crossings - maximum speed of 10km/h. on separated footpaths, bicycle paths or bicycle lanes (physically separated from other traffic) - maximum speed of 25km/h. on bike lanes (where the maximum road speed limit is no greater than 50km/h) - maximum speed of 25km/h. to the left on any road where there is no bike lane (where the maximum speed limit is no greater than 50km/h) - maximum speed of 25km/h. You must ride your PMD in the bicycle lane if you are on a road that has a bicycle lane (for roads where the maximum speed limit is not greater than 50km/h).
E-scooters will be permitted on roads where the maximum speed limit is 60km/h but must ride in the bicycle lane. Riders must stick to the maximum speed limit of 25km/h. If a bicycle lane on a 60km/h road is only operational during specific times, e-scooters are only permitted on them during those times. In other cases, they must switch to the footpath.
PMDs (that are not e-scooters) must only travel on roads where the speed limit is 50km/h or less, except:
when something is blocking the footpath, bike path, or shared path next to the road, and the rider needs to use the road for less than 50 metres to get around it to cross the road. For bike lanes and roads where the speed limit is less than 25km/h, you must follow the speed limit of the bike lane or road.
When you ride a PMD, you must always:
keep left and give way to pedestrians adhere to the speed limit keep a safe distance when travelling near pedestrians so you can avoid a collision keep left of oncoming bicycles, PMDs and other vehicles. You must not ride your PMD where bicycles or wheeled recreational devices such as skateboards and scooters are not allowed. If you see a sign that does not allow bicycles or devices like skateboards and scooters to be ridden, you must not ride past that sign.
PMD use will be monitored for 12 months to ensure devices are being used safely on shared spaces like footpaths, shared paths and roads.”
https://mylicence.sa.gov.au/roadrules/personal-mobility-devices
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
Why is everyone in this comment section kind of on edge? I’m uncomfortable
RipOk3600@reddit
There is already enough hate aimed at cyclists, we need more infrastructure and car driver defaultists use people like yourself who can’t follow the laws which DO exist to argue for bikes to be banned all together.
Not to mention I have been hit multiple times while riding down the expressway track by idiots on dirt bikes
Bigbanghead@reddit
Illegal e-bikes are often a real pain. They are often young riders, who have no respect for the law, have a total disregard for any rules of the road, and are dangerous to other road users.
There might be some riders that are OK, but there are way too many occurrences of madness. People want them off the roads, and so are actively discouraging you.
I think you'd be mad to ride one, the police can confiscate and crush it, any accident will be your fault (it being illegal), they often go as fast as a motorcycle and you won't be wearing adequate protection for that.
Bigbanghead@reddit
You will probably need insurance and a number plate for an e motorbike ( including the middle ground of over 50cc).
That might be hard to achieve.
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
I mean I figured a few extra expenses were part of the whole motorcycle deal, is that really very hard to achieve?
Bigbanghead@reddit
In some countries getting a number plate and insurance for the 'middle ground ' is virtually impossible.
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
To be honest I’m thinking of forgoing the insurance, especially if the bike I get is on the lighter side. I think the rego should be ok though, in australia it’s pretty much either ‘bike’ or ‘motorbike’ in terms of registration requirements. I just learned they put a 25 km/hr cap on pedalling e-bikes though which is bloody ridiculous; I think some come with an off switch for ‘off-road’ mode that I should be able to use but all the same.. it’s gonna be a decision between cheap (but possibly illegal if I go too fast) and expensive and harder to maintain, but less legally wobbly
Bigbanghead@reddit
In Australia, legal e-bikes must have a maximum continuous motor power of 250W, with assistance cutting out at 25km/h and pedalling required.
If your bike exceeds this it is essentially a motorbike. Police can just confiscate your bike if it exceeds this.
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
Why are we downvoting me for not knowing something..? (Though I do know the law already) That’s a pretty inflexible way to look at it, police won’t show up at the door the instant I purchase something over the limit, there are legal workarounds for ‘off-road’ e-bikes that allow places to sell bikes with a switch to turn off the 25km/hr limit for ‘off road.’ You don’t need to worry so much about a stranger, I will carefully consider feasibility here, and get advice from friends with e-bikes who I already know do similar.
Bigbanghead@reddit
If you can apply power from the motor without pedalling, it is not classed as an e-bike in Australia, its a motorbike. Thats the easiest way to spot what type of bike it is.
An e-bike needs to be pedal-assist, not just a throttle.
Bigbanghead@reddit
People hate illegal e-bikes. They are a blight in many cities, and the riders are often obnoxious. They don't obey any laws, or seem to care about other road users.
Mindless-Concept8010@reddit
E-bikes are limited in speed and power in most countries so the crossover from one to the other is rather far apart, ie. an e-bike might top out at 20 kph. E-motorcycles are registered and licensed so are allowed to go faster (a lot faster).Every country has their own rules and the print them up. I’d start my research there.
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
Ah I see thanks for actually answering my question haha
RipOk3600@reddit
You can NOT ride a Vespa in a bike lane, that’s illegal. It has to be registered and you have to have a car license and it can go no faster than 50kmh anything more than that and you need a motorcycle license
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
I think you’re misunderstanding me here, I’m not intending to do something dangerous like ride an ebike in the middle of the lane, or ride an electric Vespa or similar in a bike lane. I just wanted to know if there’s a middle ground: that is, an ebike that will be fast enough to justify its use for deliveries (In the bike lane) but still classifies as a push bike for the convenience that comes with that. I didn’t know about the 25km limit on e-bikes which seems a little ridiculous; there are some small workarounds I’ve seen discussed on Australian subs though, so it’s completely cut and dry. That’s not something dangerous either, it’s just purchasing a bike that allows you to switch off the 25km/h limit that turns off the power when you reach that speed; it doesn’t turn it into some dangerous homemade motorbike or anything
RipOk3600@reddit
You have been mislead, bikes which have an “off road mode” are illegal to ride on the roads (and I think now they are illegal to import at all with the changes, it has to match the EU requirements).
Suggest you ring the RAA road law unit because they are quite helpful but the laws are clear.
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
You mean if someone even sees it it’s instant fine?
RipOk3600@reddit
Confiscation and crushed more likely.
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
Ah :(
demon_twink_gockie@reddit
That depends on the state and engine displacement. In Georgia, you can, IF it's under 50cc's, and then it will not need to be registered or insured and you only need a learner's permit, though if you only have the permit, you are restricted to daytime hours, IIRC.
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
America requires you to insure vehicles? That sucks
demon_twink_gockie@reddit
Yes, what country doesn't? Lol
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
From what I understand ours is automatically included in the rego fee you pay to the state government and just involves compensation for others getting hurt. Like a tax. Maybe I got it wrong about America but from what people say it sounded like you needed to organise it yourself independently, and like you might need to pay for more than that?
demon_twink_gockie@reddit
So you have to get it yourself, but it's super easy and you have to have at least, I think like 25k property damage coverage and 50k medical to cover other motorists if you're at fault. Then you can get additional coverage like comprehensive, which covers your car if something happens to it while it's not being driven, like a tree falling on it. Then there's collision coverage, to cover your car if it's involved in a wreck, and uninsured motorist protection, to cover your damages if you're hit by an uninsured driver. Then the comprehensive and collision is usually required by the bank if you finance a vehicle for the life of the loan. But you'll just purchase an insurance policy from an insurance company. So do y'all have, like, insurance companies you can buy like, comprehensive and collision coverage from, or how does that work if you need that!
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
To be honest, I don’t know. I’m still on my first car, and I haven’t considered more than the bare basics
RipOk3600@reddit
Did you miss where he said the state (South AUSTRALIA), the US laws are quite irrelevant
JeremyFromKenosha@reddit
Yes, a 50cc scooter. They are limited to 50 kph (30 mph) in AU, where eBikes are limited to 25 kph. A good Jap one will get > 100 mpg. (2.82 L / 100 km)
A 125 cc scooter requires a higher class of license, but will reliably go 50 mph. (80 kph)
A 150 cc scooter will go 100 kph.
With an eBike speed limit that low, it only makes sense if you're trying not to sweat or if you live in a hilly area, as 15 mph is not too hard to accomplish on an efficient muggle bike.
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
🫡 thank you very much for your advice most other people here are being weird.
DonnPT@reddit
This isn't telling us anything. If you want to make a delivery over certain distances within a certain time, then you know how fast that needs to be.
One way to look at it, is your personal safety and comfort. If you routinely need to go faster than say 30 kph, people who do that a lot are well advised to wear protective clothing beyond what bicyclists normally wear. Boots, gloves, helmet, durable jacket, etc. Pedals are useless for someone dressed like that, because you don't want to get all steamed up in there, and anyway the power needed for it is far beyond anything you could reasonably sustain, so you're talking about a simple case for buying a scooter motorcycle.
If you want to ride in bike lanes and have other bicycle options, and 20-25 kph is plenty fast to get you there, then ordinary e-bike will be fine.
slacknsurf420@reddit
I pedal at 65kmh and it is quite warm here at that speed the effect the drag has on you actually cools you like free AC, I actually get hottest under the open face helmet
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
I appreciate you took the time to write me a wall of information but with all due respect you’re being a bit passive aggressive with the ‘that isn’t telling us anything. You know how fast you need to go.” You could just ask a clarifying question, I won’t mind. What you’re saying later about your speed, how easily you keep up with the surrounding traffic and how safe you feel is what I wanted to know so I feel like you understood me well enough anyway.
Not to start a paragraph war though. You’re saying you have a pedalling ebike that gets up to about 65km/hr on the road, and in your experience it feels safe? Most roads around my town are 40-60km/h so that sounds ideal. By ‘fast enough to do delivery’ I meant something that roughly keeps up with car speed on small town streets. I think 30km/h will be too slow (though maybe still worth it for local travel if the price difference between something that goes 30k and something 60k is too big for me). I didn’t consider pedalling with gear though, thanks for letting me know I’ll have to think about it.
DonnPT@reddit
You're replying to two different people here. The 65 kph guy can speak for himself, but for me that's too extreme to be relevant at all.
My picture of "safe" is the opposite of "fast enough." If we're really talking about ebikes, keeping up with traffic is a sane objective only when congestion keeps the traffic below posted speed. Once the road opens up, most motorists will desire to exceed the posted limit, and they won't be happy to see a bicycle in front of them at any speed.
I value the ability to maintain a reasonable speed. I believe it is safer not to have to slow way down for hills, to be able to boost out quickly from a stop, etc. Having an ebike makes me feel I can take on some arterials I wouldn't try with a human powered bike. But I'm not going to try to flow with full speed traffic on an ebike, that's asking for it. Going more than 30 kph is asking for it. Ordinary ebikes are generally adequate for ordinary ebike use, including obviously anywhere a regular bicycle can go.
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
ah whoops
… I’m not actually thinking of riding IN traffic, if it’s a push ebike that only reaches something like 50km/h, just going fast enough to justify using the ebike for deliveries that I’d usually do with my car.
DonnPT@reddit
Scooter, is what that is.
Ebike is a mixed power vehicle - human and battery power together.
At 50 kph, wind resistance builds up to the point you're pushing 1200W. Normal pedaling input is 100W - it isn't needed. A 50 kph vehicle is simply motorized, and the type of vehicle built for that - safety features etc. - is a better choice, than the ebike that has been goosed to that extreme.
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
Ok. So you’re disagreeing with the other person that a pedal ebike would be worth it at 50/60km, and also saying you believe it’s very unsafe and a scooter would be better because it’s designed for those speeds. I‘ll seriously consider the safety, though half of me thinks surely there’s some better off-roads or mountain bikes that would be okay? Are you talking in terms of crash resistance with all the traffic or stability?
I don’t quite understand what you’re saying with the pedals though. Sure they don’t do anything at top speed, but I would use them going slower. Seeing as if I end up deciding on an ebike I’d want to use it on paths too, at normal NOT 50km/hr speeds. Most push e-bikes have adjustable levels of power-assist don’t they?
DonnPT@reddit
I'm thinking scooters designed for motorcycle speed will have brakes for that, more centered riding position, tires with more rubber, etc. Crash resistance is mostly how you're dressed.
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
Ah alright that makes sense. Everyone else is making me think scooter/motorbike too which will suck to have to invest more but oh well.
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
Sorry for thinking you and the other person were the same, your profiles are the same nondescript orange icons. Which country is this? You don’t get any trouble from police going so fast?
i_am_blacklite@reddit
Pedalling at 65km/h is basically just pretending.
If you were actually contributing a significant amount of power at that speed you should be riding in the Tour de France.
slacknsurf420@reddit
like I just said you can actually go try and do it or you can picture it in your mind and wonder ..
DonnPT@reddit
At that speed, there isn't much point in pedaling anyway, in terms of propulsion. That's well over 2000W, and no one is going to sustain even a 10th of that at the pedals.
I think your notion of "feels pretty safe" does not line up very well with mine.
slacknsurf420@reddit
well there's firsthand experience and there's assumption
demon_twink_gockie@reddit
There's an electric vespa.
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
This is exactly the kind of thing I’d want. Do you mean Vespa the brand or generally just that style of retro scooter?
demon_twink_gockie@reddit
I mean the Vespa Electric, made by Vespa there's also the Piaggio 1, made by the parent company of Vespa I believe they both go up to 45MPH and should fit the definition of a Moped in many jurisdictions, while in others, it would be plated like a motorcycle and should be no problem to get registered, straight from the dealer. And if you ever decide to upgrade, BMW makes an electric maxi-scooter.
Rainbird2003@reddit (OP)
Awesome! Thanks :)
demon_twink_gockie@reddit
You're welcome🥰