Captain Ibrahim Traoré says Burkina Faso must 'forget' about democracy
Posted by thinkB4WeSpeak@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 112 comments
Posted by thinkB4WeSpeak@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 112 comments
_Antitese@reddit
he is just criticizing liberal burgeoise democracy, and has a good point.
Rabid_Lederhosen@reddit
If he’s only criticising “bourgeois, liberal democracy”, then why did he ban all opposition parties?
Stats_are_hard@reddit
The problem is, by allowing opposition and a more liberal-type democratic system, a small country like Burkina Faso will be extremely easy to manipulate by outside forces, if such outside forces wish to do that. (For example, if their economic interests are threatened). This puts small global south countries in an almost impossible conundrum: Allow for liberal democracy and become somewhat of a western vassal state that primarily exists so that large western companies extract all your resources (see the majority of african countries for example), or go down the authoritarian route, which allows for keeping control of your resources but of course brings many problems and risks on its own, especially once a bad leader takes over and then just uses the system to enrich themselves.
Nurhaci1616@reddit
A far superior option to democracy is to have an autocratic state, where outside forces only need to influence one guy to manipulate the state, rather than wasting their time and money bribing or blackmailing a majority of a parliament or senate...
Stats_are_hard@reddit
Sure, an autocratic puppet would obviously be the best case for outside forces. I don't see how thats a coutnerargument though. Nobody is advocating for that, no?
Nurhaci1616@reddit
The autocrat compelling people to "forget about democracy" kind of is advocating for that, surely?
Stats_are_hard@reddit
Its not binary. There have been many autocratic leaders throughout history that have objevtively been great and incorruptable leaders, at the same time there are obviously many autocratic systems that just enrich the ruling class. That was the whole point of my comment...
TakeThreeFourFive@reddit
The comment at the top of this chain is literally saying his suggestion about how to run the country is "a good point"
Zeydon@reddit
They'd have to influence one specific guy, who just so happened to be the guy who ousted colonial powers in the first place.
loggy_sci@reddit
Western colonial powers, not colonial powers writ large.
Rabid_Lederhosen@reddit
Burkina Faso has a population over four times larger than my (democratic, postcolonial) country. I’m not buying your argument.
FlashyHeight9323@reddit
Crazy how the framing implies the guy acting to prevent foreign intervention is the problem rather than the proven historic record of that intervention.
loggy_sci@reddit
He isn’t preventing foreign intervention at all.
GreatestLoser@reddit
Bro you’re on western app. The people here simply wants the west to go back there and continue to leech resources and destabilize the country. They feel entitled to the happenings of other countries, despite being the major enforcers of cruelty and war crimes.
FlashyHeight9323@reddit
That doesn’t make sense. Tell me which one steals? kills? assassinates? poisons? indoctrinates? propagandises? funds? sanctions? loans? Ah, wait, I see it now.
FlashyHeight9323@reddit
An actually based take compared to everyone running their mouth. It’s so disingenuous to boil everything down to “he wants power”. Spoken to you by people who couldn’t point to the country on the map of their life depended on it.
sofixa11@reddit
Not necessarily. You don't need democratic parties for people in government to be influencable.
lmao. Is that why Traore sold gold mining rights to Russian companies at below market value?
mrgoobster@reddit
It's one thing to criticize democracy; it's quite another to suggest that revolutionary nationalist authoritarianism has a less bloody history.
acupofcoffeeplease@reddit
Western democracy IS revolutionary nationalist authoritarianism
mrgoobster@reddit
Sure, and up is down. You might argue with some justice that America, which has historically been a democratic republic, is showing signs of being overtaken by a nationalist authoritarian regime, but that doesn't mean democracy is authoritarianism.
acupofcoffeeplease@reddit
Brother, your "democracy" imposed dictatorships around the world, silencing people on all of latin america, and yet your own people have no voice, they are killed on streets since ever, you dont even have healthcare. How is this democracy? Theres literally TWO parties lol
Democracy is authoritarianism to anyone that oposes the elites interests, that wants to not be used as an object in their work, that wants to own a house before dying, it has always been like this.
You dont even have vacation, you work non stop. Is this democracy? American workers decided they dont want healthcare, dont want paid vacations, dont want to afford a house, want to be sent to die in the middle east? Is any of this problems new?
mrgoobster@reddit
You're not responding to the argument I actually made.
acupofcoffeeplease@reddit
If it doesn't matter if the people have actual agency in a "democratic republic", why is it so important?
fcukou@reddit
Yes they are, you don't have a counter.
Bourbon-Decay@reddit
It also doesn't mean that a lack of Western democracy is automatically authoritarian.
kitti-kin@reddit
"Democracy" does not exclusively belong to America as a concept. Marx spoke of democracy, Lenin wrote of wanting democracy. There are different ideas of how to get there.
joecitizen79@reddit
The US has been in a near perpetual state of war and proxy war since the end of ww2, resulting in the deaths of millions.
mrgoobster@reddit
That is a statement, not an argument. What are you suggesting with that fact? If your point is that nationalist authoritarianism has a less bloody record, your math isn't mathing.
joecitizen79@reddit
I'm suggesting your country has a more bloody record than all the places your government call authoritarian. And my math is fine. 3 million dead in Vietnam, 1.3 in Korea and 1 million in Iraq alone.
mrgoobster@reddit
Brother, Stalin alone killed in the ballpark of 3-4 million of his own people by violence - not including the millions killed by famine. Mao killed about 3-5 million of his own people by violence, not including the 20-30 million who died from famine.
You have picked a very silly argument, because I don't even have to apply rhetoric. The numbers win this effortlessly and by a landslide.
thehourglasses@reddit
You need to brush up on your history. Famine happens everywhere throughout history because of poor management, it’s not intentional. Capitalism demands people starve because it sets a floor on what is required to live, pricing people out of being able to be alive. Liberal brainrot got you.
ultimate_placeholder@reddit
Also US sanctions have directly lead to millions of deaths, so if someone wants to call famines caused by policy genocides, then those should count.
joecitizen79@reddit
Brother, I listed 3 conflicts out of dozens, and didn't even mention the genocide of the natives, nor the nearly 40 million deaths as the result of US sanctions.
And you're trying very hard to defend the indefensible.
TakeThreeFourFive@reddit
To frame these arguments as a "defense" of the activities of the US around the world is silly. That's clearly not what's happening here.
Whereas the comment originally being replied to was definitely a defense of an authoritarian leader.
joecitizen79@reddit
That is what we're discussing.
Melded1@reddit
US sanctions murdered 38 million people, political scientist says
best_uranium_box@reddit
I need your permission to borrow this comeback
mrgoobster@reddit
Nah, you don't. But if you did, you'd have it.
joecitizen79@reddit
Why would you borrow a poor argument?
Ok_Relation7695@reddit
Are you fucking sure about that? What’s your numbers? You might be stuck in some echo chamber.
Livelih00d@reddit
There are legitimate criticisms of liberal democracy, the issue here is he wants a system that is worse.
Zeydon@reddit
Libya under Gaddafi was much better for Libyans than it is now, post US coup. The alternative you're imagining is not the one Traore is fighting to avoid.
Fears of his nation being put back under the oppressive boot of Western imperialists are very real, and if you object with the steps he's taking to avoid that fate you should save your animus for the imperialists.
Livelih00d@reddit
Right, but by imperialists ofcourse you're ignoring China and Russia that Traore is more than happy to sell his country to from underneath the people.
Zeydon@reddit
Ahh yes, and I remember when the Continental Army sold the US to France during the Revolutionary War.
Ok_Relation7695@reddit
The «issue» is none of our fucking business. Let the country rule themselves how they want to do it… fuck off out of peoples countries and see how your own country try get a lot better for you
Livelih00d@reddit
A significant amount of the population of the country explicitly DON'T want to be ruled by this current junta. Wtf is even this comment.
Bourbon-Decay@reddit
Typical Western take. 79% of Burkinabe support President Traoré, compare that to the 27% of Americans that support Trump. There will never be 100% support for any given country, but you choose to focus solely on the minority as if it is some profound rebuke of the Burkinabe government.
Livelih00d@reddit
You're literally from america buddy
Bourbon-Decay@reddit
No shit. Do you have a point?
Livelih00d@reddit
"Typical western take" when you're just another dime a dozen campist Americans. You're not enlightened or even particuarly bright.
Ok_Relation7695@reddit
The «issue» is none of our fucking business. Let the country rule themselves how they want to do it… fuck off out of peoples countries and see how your own country try get a lot better for you
RenzoThePaladin@reddit
Yep, very clearly this guy just wants absolute power and is using westerners as an excuse.
"Atleast you're not ruled by colonial west even though I'm a hundred times worse" type shit
kitti-kin@reddit
Burkina Faso was already a democracy before him though, he cancelled promised elections. And he came to power in a military coup, a tactic western powers love to use on their enemies, so it's hard to take his stance as one of principle.
swelboy@reddit
Bourgeoisie democracy is when you can actually lose election. What the hell does a “system rooted in sovereignty, patriotisms, and revolutionary mobilization”even mean?
Monterenbas@reddit
Do military dictatorships have a better track records in Africa?
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Traore is a failure. His takeover has lead to more civilian deaths, more of the country being taken over by jihadists, and a crackdown on civil liberties for the Burkinabé people. He's conscripted anti-government figures and sent them to die on the frontlines, and despite being an 'anti-colonialist' is happy to let Russian Wagner Group operatives stomp all over the country.
No shit he's opposed to democracy. All shitty dictators are.
Kubocho@reddit
Probably he is most capable than the orange pedophile rapist guy that the USA has as president of peak democracy
DancesWithAnyone@reddit
Yes, Trump sucks. America sucks. The West is guilty of alot of shit and colonianism.
Same goes for Russia. And this dictator Traore. Being Anti-West doesn't get you a pass on being a huge cunt. The West isn't the the sole, ultimate force of evil out there. I wish it were, that'd make simpler, but it's far from it.
BendicantMias@reddit
Problem is the West likes to promote itself as the ultimate force of GOOD out there. If it stopped being so hypocritical and ditched the moral grandstanding then it wouldn't get called out so much. Like most countries don't pretend they care about anything above national interest, it's normal. But the west keeps pretending it's some sort of moral force, then doesn't live up to that.
Even Trumps' 'America First' slogan would just make people scratch their heads in most parts of the world - they'd wonder 'but haven't we always put our country first?!' And yet in America this was considered a major break from past American policy. Even though it wasn't.
You don't have to be good. You just have to stop pretending you are. And the West has a LOOOONG history of this btw - it's been a feature of the western identity ever since the days of the "White Mans' Burden". The only change from then to now is switching away from explicitly racist language about it.
loggy_sci@reddit
Idiots more mad about hypocrisy than actual harm.
swelboy@reddit
I don’t think being more capable than a senile man child is as much of a plus as you think it is. My dog who barks at babies in strollers would do a better job than him.
Jay_Jay_Jason_74@reddit
Calling the US Peak democracy shows how uninformed you are
newaccounthomie@reddit
Dum bot don’t know sarcasm lmao
ERG_S@reddit
Give him a break, he’s german
Ok-Goose6242@reddit
😭
acupofcoffeeplease@reddit
Well tell that to every country that is threathened by westerns imposing ""democracy"", they dont even know how to do it and yet want every one to follow them. Ridiculous.
Kubocho@reddit
Well is not the USA delivering democracy since after the WWII to some non democratic countries?
TheGalator@reddit
Both countries are jokes
3darkdragons@reddit
Correlation is not causation. Careful not to take bbc as God honest truth.
Dr_Surgimus@reddit
Are they not quoting what he said?
3darkdragons@reddit
Yes they are, but out of context. I'm not even saying their selective quoting is disingenuous or inaccurate, just that taking out of context quotes and actions does nor correlate to him being a "failure" or "shitty dictator" and paints an incomplete picture of the man, the circumstances, the intentions, etc. It becomes a caricature of a complicated issue.
Sodi920@reddit
As opposed to what media source?
3darkdragons@reddit
Good question, let me know if you find one.
Primary-Chef-7262@reddit
Not a bright comment
cielofnaze@reddit
Keyword: Russian Wagner
That's why western hatered
SorysRgee@reddit
Nah just standard hatred cause idiot dictator uses other idiot dictators private military company to screw up country. Would give me the shits if he used an american PMC too
BendicantMias@reddit
Most western coverage of the country has focused on Wagner, so this isn't true. Most westerners would struggle to find Burkina Faso on a map, and when confronted about that would likely defend it saying they don't care about it. The only reason the west gives a shit about Burkina Faso is cos of Wagner.
Meanwhile when it comes to Frances' shit in Africa, the focus is on Africans...
Primary-Chef-7262@reddit
Literally
SorysRgee@reddit
Im sorry are you saying it wouldnt make me personally annoyed? First of all, dont speak for me personally. Cheers champ.
Moreover, I know about Burkino Faso because I know about Mali and I know about Mali because of funnily enough Damon Albarn the lead singer of Gorillaz and Blur advocating for better healthcare and better access to services in Mali through music. Since then I always kept an eye on the region.
Western media may only care because of this but it is not why I care. I care because civilians are being slaughtered and are not able to engage in self determination.
acupofcoffeeplease@reddit
It would absolutely not give you the shits
SorysRgee@reddit
Sorry bit of an aussie expression. Means to be pissed off
Ok_Relation7695@reddit
Fuck… they should run and submit to European rule again.. because that’s what the people of that country wants…. /s
Wolfensniper@reddit
Yes obviously Russian is so much better than French because it was late to the Africa party
Skin_Ankle684@reddit
People have very high expectations for the recent victims of imperialism.
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
False dichotomy.
Pm_Me_Dirty_Thought@reddit
You guys kept quiet about Compaore despite him being 1000x worse
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Whataboutism!
Contundo@reddit
Everyone should have seen this coming. In a decade or two another strong man comes along overthrowing Traoré, leading to another civil war and more civilians will die.
acupofcoffeeplease@reddit
Strong man backed by the US*
onespiker@reddit
Compered to the current guy backed by Russia?
acupofcoffeeplease@reddit
See how this is dumb? The point is to have a guy aligned with the US, not that they have or don't have actual democracy?
onespiker@reddit
I don’t really care who is the main support. More about results and his actual popularity in the country.
All the evidence I have seen is that he is running the country bad economic growth, terrorism and more have gotten a lot worse. He actually isn’t even popular in the country, otherwise why cancel elections if he was popular he would win won and use that to remove it.
Instead he took over by military means and has shown no popular support. Most of the support I have seen is more from outside leftists that think he is an Thomas Sankara figure.
acupofcoffeeplease@reddit
Oh, I see, you are an avid enjoyer of China's and North Korea's government, then? No way you call them dictatorships, right?
onespiker@reddit
North Korean is very questionable.
China is by definition a dictatorship yes. But doesn’t mean that the current one does have a lot of support for what they have done the last 50 years. Will say the 50 and early 60s were horrible and mostly self inflicted.
acupofcoffeeplease@reddit
Funny, I though that your definition of dictatorship was public support, yet you dont use it like that, since you still call dictatorship countries with vast popular support. How come?
What is the "definition" that you use to classify China, since you only refer that its a dictatorship "by definition"? Is the definition "the government of China"?
onespiker@reddit
It’s a dictatorship is a form of governance. China isn’t a democracy regardless of what they say in the constitution about voting.
It’s in many ways easier to have popular support if you remove everybody else and also have control of the media. It’s easy enough to lie in democracy, in dictatorship it’s even easier since you can just find someone else to take the fall in that case.
Dictatorships aren’t immune from public approval and the capable ones always allow some level off discussion and discourse both to gauge the public and to make sure people buy into the system.
North Korea is also a dictatorship or even a monarchy ( with is a dictatorship with family inheritance more). But it’s extremely hard to know what happens in the country and also there are reason why they are so extremely closed of.
blackstar32_25@reddit
Man there must have been some sort of media memo that was put out about this guy.
I've lost count of how many times I've seen articles in my feed talking mad smack about Traoré and taking things he's said out of context. It's well beyond the threshold of organic journalism.
Western media is a joke. Name me something that these western rags love more than slandering independent African leaders.
BigDicEnergy@reddit
Strangely, this is refreshing.
For decades, we have had 'leaders' like Biya, Museveni and Ouattara use the stylings 'liberal democracy' to seize and entrench their power and wealth. Furthermore, even nations with successful democracies have seen middling increases in living standards and productivity and virtually no industrialisation, while creating huge wealth gaps.
For Traoré to state outright that a western-style democracy is not on the cards at least lets us know what he's about. The problem is this: the first steps of a true revolutionary leader and a charlatan military dictator look extremely similar. Traoré has said all the right things - he is as populist as they come. We will have to see if in the coming years, he can build a political project that extends beyond himself and progresses the nation under one banner.
I remain highly skeptical, but we have to see
FlashyHeight9323@reddit
This guy thinks critically. I’m waiting for a non biased take by a western flaired user as there’s currently a sad pattern.
dabeeman@reddit
insane take. suggesting people can’t rule themselves is a reasonable stance is peak insanity.
FlashyHeight9323@reddit
Ah there we go. Remind me which country goes around telling other countries what they can and can’t do. Who they can and can’t have as a leader? Maybe the corporate states of america should look in the mirror first.
dabeeman@reddit
did i defend that? i’m defending the idea people should rule themselves not dictators. work on your reading skills.
FlashyHeight9323@reddit
I’m just saying someone who comes from democratic republican with a completely captive regulatory body, a militarised police state, and currently being run by a literal gang of billionaires, has no right to pretend they know the first thing about governance by the people.
Your false equivalence is implied. He said democracy isn’t for them based on Libya. He didn’t say vote for me and I promise you’ll never have to vote again. Smart people don’t like me. We should simply take their oil.
Which one sounds like the actual words of a dictator? Centralised power has its uses and purposes. It also has a corrupting influence but it doesn’t mean you get to say it’s bad when every demonstrable example you could bring up is going to reek of western intervention one way or another.
Serious_Resource8191@reddit
“Your country has problems, therefore you have no right to think about the problems that other countries have.”
FlashyHeight9323@reddit
More like “your country has problems while simultaneously and routinely serving as the cause of other countries problems. Consider this context before talking down.”
Serious_Resource8191@reddit
It’s a distinction without a difference in this context.
“The people of Burkina Faso deserve self determination and should not suffer under a dictator” “Yeah but America bad.”
Bourbon-Decay@reddit
Lol, do you think "democracy" in the United States is an example of people being able to rule themselves? Our current president was "democratically elected" by 33% of the eligible voting population. He is a billionaire who has used his corrupt power to enrich his family and friends. We have anonymous masked brownshirts disappearing, trafficking, and murdering people. Roughly half of Congress are millionaires, while only 8.8% of Americans are, and they use their corrupt power to enrich themselves and their friends. Both parties are funded and supported by the same billionaires and corporate interests. Our "democratic" system of governance was designed to represent and benefit a small portion of the ruling class from the very outset. Minority groups have experienced fluctuating levels of disenfranchisement for centuries. The police state and surveillance state possess an ever increasing amount of power. Working class men and women are sent overseas to fight and die in wars that benefit the ruling class. 13.7% of Americans experience food insecurity, and 11.1% live in poverty. We have one of the highest numbers of incarcerated populations in the world. Homelessness is on the rise.
And you think all the world's people should aspire to live under our same system. Americans have been propagandized to believe that we have the greatest system of government in the world, and anything less is an authoritarian hellhole. It is time to come to terms with the fact that our system is not superior, that democracy is not the pinnacle of human achievement in governance, that there are different styles of self governance that are beneficial to the people of different countries and situations, and the global population doesn't need or want "Western democracy."
BendicantMias@reddit
Problem is western economists keep praising Rwanda - a dictatorship - as the new 'Singapore of Africa'. Africans have noted its success too, and wish to copy it. More than anything it shows that, unlike western rhetoric that often mixes together capitalism, democracy and liberalism as some sort of natural cocktail, the field of economics doesn't actually give a shit about democracy. Meanwhile the Gulf monarchies that western capital loved to flock to (until recently) show they don't give a shit about 'liberal values' either.
dabeeman@reddit
yeah getting richer does not mean the people are treated well, fairly or even humanely.
but when gdp is your target human beings are just a number.
Ok-Goose6242@reddit
Eh, what do you expect from western neolibs?
FlashyHeight9323@reddit
Not much till they figure out it’s just financial oligarchy with a PR team
jbrandon@reddit
A reasonable attitude. My understanding of his background and the steps he has taken so far make me a bit less skeptical and a bit more hopeful. I also find it very hard to get news and info from the area.