ZIP and JAZ drives: we did something crazy

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sputwiler@reddit

[adjusts SCSI bowtie] the click of death must have been something those parallel plebeians experienced.

(I joke, but the click of death wasn't a thing until iomega started cheaping out on the drive safety mechanisms in the later models; we were too poor to upgrade from our SCSI Zip 100MB which ironically saved all my family's files from a clicky fate)

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sparkyblaster@reddit

Look at the rich one over here who had a Zip 100. *Cries in floppy disk*

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pelofr@reddit

Look at the rich one over here who had a SCSI Zip 100. *Cries in parallep zip*

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sputwiler@reddit

Absolutely insane to me that most computers had some kind of SCSI (because it made sense for Small Computers to have some kind of System Interface), but IBM was like "Nah, the unwashed personal computer masses (who don't use mainframes) don't deserve an interface. They'll only ever need 8 bits output-only for a dot-matrix print head maybe." Then they won the personal computer war everyone was stuck with sub-standard hardware. The hacks to get parallel ports to have actual bi-directional usefulness are wild. Even an Atari ST had better.

Also yeah we had to have a Macintosh in the house for work, but it was always at least a generation behind lol.

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ResortAncient6558@reddit

I kind of agree relating to the USB vs Firewire, it was a shame especially given how utterly horrible USB2.0 was vs FW400/800. But you can squarely blame Steve Jobs for Firewire not making the big time. Intel were primed to add it to all their chipsets but Jobs wanted an unrealistic amount of revenue off the sales of the technology and was charging per port for royalties. It put Intel and a lot of PC motherboard and prebuilt system manufacturers off using it. Apple ended up getting it ratified as an IEEE open standard and only charging for the name but it was too little, too late sadly. Even its use in a whole generation of DV video cameras didn’t help a whole bunch. Sony and a couple of other companies fitted it in their computers for a while, but by 2010 it was pretty-much a dinosaur outside the Video industry. It’s sad. In 1998 it was faster than anything we’d ever seen and it was designed to be truly robust. By 2005 it was an expensive side-note for pro video users and people with lots of external storage on their desk.

Thankfully, confusing nomenclature aside, USB 3.0 and up has gone a long way to fixing a lot of the sins if it’s fathers, it’s a more robust standard these days, even though it still retains some legacy quirks.

Also USB 3.x has a SCSI transport layer called “UASP” (USB Attached SCSI Protocol) which is quite similar to SATA and SAS and absolutely rips over a 10Gbps USB interface. You will see quite a lot of SATA and NVMe enclosures advertise UASP capability, it makes a huge difference in speeds.

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mwiz100@reddit

Well put. I was telling anyone who would listen at the time how superior FW was and why they should always choose it, even if it meant adding in a PCI card to their PC. The licensing choice was so SO unbelievably stupid and indeed truly screwed it.

I'm glad we at least got Thunderbolt but alas it still also has really poor adoption in the face of USB 3 which while the latter is leagues better, still doesn't hold a candle to Thunderbolt.

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smuckola@reddit

ha ha. may all the Second Systems ever fix the sins of their fathers.

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sputwiler@reddit

lol the publishers were not about to accept photoshop files in multi-part split-zip files on 5-10 diskettes in that fedex overnight mailer. This was pre sending files over the internet more than a few kb.

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CLE-Mosh@reddit

About 2001 I was working at a local weekly entertainment newspaper, we got bought out, and the founding editor ( a friend of mine) was unceremoniously fired. His office was filled with 20 years worth of files, artwork, huge indie album, cassette, CD collection etc., including a wall of ZIP disks, thousands of them.

He was given about 4 hours to collect his things. Anything left went straight in a compacter dumpster, so no diving after the fact. I was twitching watching all those ZIP disks just go down the chute. $$$$ POOF.

There definitely was some scavenging, but I know for a fact that there was original artwork, that would be worth thousands today, in the pile that went in the dumpster.

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smuckola@reddit

cool. what kind of art?

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CLE-Mosh@reddit

We had a local (at the time) "sketch" artist who produced hand drawn magazine cover illustrations and other material. That artist is pretty famous these days, his originals command some serious $$$$.

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sputwiler@reddit

God that era of digital art has got to have so much locked away on zip disks and syquest drive cartridges.

I managed to archive what Atari ST diskettes my dad had that weren't damaged and found so many drafts for what would now only survive as a magazine or book cover maybe, and some things that I'm sure exist in no other way. Digital archeology is fascinating.

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CLE-Mosh@reddit

my specialty back then was digital scanning and transport and adapting to every unique way people would come up with to move files. Back in like 97 I networked windows, mac, Sun systems using SMB and was I told it shouldn't work, but it did, and saved me the aggravation of using Bernoulli disks for transport.

I worked at a Service Bureau for a couple years in the mid 90's, the rate of leaps in hardware and software technology back then, especially in photography, printing, optics and digital color, was pretty crazy.

It was definitely fun being the techie guy back then, lots of expensive toys to test the limits on.

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BetElectrical7454@reddit

The click of death existed in the early models as well. I worked at a 3rd party formatting company and not long after the Zip drive was introduced Iomega asked our company if we wanted to expand our contracts with them and take on formatting the Zip disks in addition to formatting their line of QIC tapes. But during our evaluation period the failure rate fir the drives was a little high combined with Iomegas insistence on not selling us parts to service the drives our selves to force us to RMA the failed drives guaranteed that we would barely break even. So needless to say we passed on the offer. The problem definitely got worse as Iomega cheaped out on later drives to supply demand.

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GreggAlan@reddit

You did the formatting for the Ditto and Ditto Max tapes? Iomega's proprietary version of QIC tapes. Those drives could read/write/format a limited subset of standard QIC tapes but for the Ditto or Ditto Max tapes they could not format - unless you hit them with a bulk eraser then the drive could format them to a lower capacity with a standard format.

When those were new I put together a PC for a dentist's office. The dentist insisted on the Iomega tape drive for backup, and he wanted NT4. Problem was, Iomega didn't release Ditto drivers for NT4 until well after its debut. They had NT3.5 drivers. I even called Iomega support and the guy assured me that they did have NT4 drivers and he'd mail them to me on a floppy. Got the envelope, opened it - it was a NT3.5 driver disk.

So the only way to use a Ditto Max internal drive to backup NT4 was to install NT on FAT16 and dual boot it with Windows 95b and use 95b only to do the backup.

But the drive made a little chime sound whenever its tray was opened.

I wondered why they failed so hard at having support for Microsoft's newest Windows at its launch date?

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BetElectrical7454@reddit

We did indeed have a bank of computers dedicated to the Ditto line, however I don’t recall any Max drives. A bank was generally 20 computers with 6 drives controlled by a modified ISA floppy controller with custom driver and formatting software. Based on our experience with the evaluating the Zip, if there was a special drive to apply a format on the Max tapes I’m pretty sure the NDA would have been prohibitive and we wouldn’t be allowed to obtain parts to service them. Servicing and calibrating drives in-house was a big part of maintaining our turnaround time at a profitable level.

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GreggAlan@reddit

Did some googling. Ditto was QIC tapes. Ditto Max used 8mm tape. Ditto Easy 800 was their first in 1992, with uncompressed capacity of 800 meg. The final Ditto product was Ditto Max Pro in 1998 with compressed capacity up to 10 gig. 1999 was the end of all Ditto products.

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aakaase@reddit

That could be true. Whatever drive had the condition infected the disks and spread the click disease to other drives. Something about the sector layout or something just got screwed up and out of calibration, the drive overcompensates, something mechanical fails...

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GreggAlan@reddit

The main cause was a sliver ripped on the edge of the Zip media. That could rip the heads off their arms. Then if you put a good disk in the damaged drive it could physically damage the disk, then put that disk in a good drive...

I worked at a computer shop back then and encountered many destroyed Zip drives and disks.

Fortunately the disks can be examined by holding the shutter open then using fingertips on the center drive plate to rotate the media to look for edge tears. Torn edge, disk goes in trash. Heads ripped off, drive goes in trash.

Bonus Facts: The way to tell an IDE VS ATAPI internal Zip 100. IDE has a black eject button with activity light next to it. ATAPI has a clear eject button with activity light shining through it. IDE has a small recess on the front with a metal rod to pull for emergency eject. ATAPI's emergency eject is a tiny hole on the back end of the drive, so the PC has to be opened up then a paperclip shoved into the hole. So Step #1 with an emergency with an ATAPI internal Zip drive is yank the PCs power cord. With the IDE version you'd keep a thumbnail and forefinger nail long enough to grab that pull rod, or bend a paperclip into a hook and keep it handy.

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sputwiler@reddit

Yes. It's well documented that later drive mechanisms removed a cushion that the drive head would hit whenever it retracted suddenly. Basically

Drive reads a bad sector
Drive head retracts suddenly to prevent further errors
[Cushion is missing] Drive head gets damaged by impact
Damaged head writes bad sectors to next disk
next disk is placed in a new drive
damage spreads

If they just hadn't removed the cushion, the drive head would still retract suddenly and "click" whenever reading that particular disk, but the head wouldn't get damaged and only that disk would be a problem. This is how the OG Zip100 drives behave. Almost as if whoever originally designed it put that cushion there for a reason.

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smuckola@reddit

why did they remove they cushion?

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sleipnirreddit@reddit

MBAs are full of “great money saving ideas” 🙄

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aakaase@reddit

I'm fairly sure my SCSI one did the clicking. It was one of the originals, I think I bought it in 1997. Got a Jaz drive too, which I never really used at all. A dumb aspirational purchase.

At any rate, fuck those drives. I'm so glad physical media is largely irrelevant and we've got robust networks now.

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Drakjira@reddit

Physical media is only irrelevant as long as the networks are functioning.

The moment a coronal mass ejection hits us like the kerrington event you're gonna be happy we kept physical copies of some of this stuff...

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aakaase@reddit

Yeah you should have copies of your data stored locally for sure.

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Tokimemofan@reddit

Then they had the stupidity to make a floppy drive format called Iomega Clik and a whole product line including mp3 players to use it with

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GreggAlan@reddit

Quickly renamed to Pocket Zip. At just 40 megabytes per disk it didn't take long for cheap small capacity USB flash drives to kill that. My first USB drive was 128 megabytes and cost $15 on sale at WalMart.

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Tokimemofan@reddit

If it was quick the tanking of the product must have been fast. I have yet to see a Pocket Zip labeled disk or drive in person

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aakaase@reddit

Right! I remember I couldn't believe they did that. WTF. Morons.

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sputwiler@reddit

Oh iomega's history is full of own-goals.

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patg84@reddit

I fired up my old IDE Zip 100 drive the other day and grabbed data of some discs. Worked like a champ.

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wootybooty@reddit

Shits Rigged xD

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Ryoohk@reddit

I lost my art project because of that

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achbob84@reddit

3-2-1 rule

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onestepforman123@reddit

The North remembers

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GrouchyReporter911@reddit

Asking about your experience - I know its not an AMA but....

(1) How did you identify these were available?
(2) How did you buy them? (I know "consult a trademark lawyer...."
(3) Is buying an existing trademark different than re-registering it as a new one?

Sounds interesting - loads of retro fun scope here....

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bigersmaler@reddit

Cool logo and have fun with the license. That said, this post triggers my PTSD. Zip was utter trash. My college went all out with every computer using it and boy did they regret it. I lost an extremely important project to the click of death.

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hackersarchangel@reddit

Came here because curious, learned a lot of history. Wow.

Btw I still have a functional Parallel 100MB drive and an internal 250Mb ZIP drive. Been working to get a legacy machine apart so I can install the 250 alongside the floppy and just have it for the heck of it.

The machine was used in a high school band office, so it also has a decent sound card from the looks of it. I probably should take pictures…

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ShirBlackspots@reddit

My Mom's computer had a Zip 100 drive, while I had an LS-120 drive in my computer, until 2007. Microsoft removed the driver for the LS-120 drive in SP3 of Windows XP so that the drive only read normal floppies

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Unlikely_Shake8208@reddit

I remember having an external zip100, internal zip250, and an internal ls120 and a jaz drive back in the day. Fun times!

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odsquad64@reddit

Is this you? I was looking for an iomega hat a couple weeks ago and stumbled upon this site. I didn't end up buying one but I thought real hard about it, I couldn't decide if it was too niche.

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zipbyiomega@reddit (OP)

we'd like to think you can never be too niche

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Visual-Sector6642@reddit

This is freaking great. I still have mine and my drives

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zipbyiomega@reddit (OP)

let's go!

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pbrunnen@reddit

I have a bunch of NOS Zip 100 disks... Anyone think they are worth anything?

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Away-Squirrel2881@reddit

I actually bought a SCSI Zip drive brand new, it was great technology at the time

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GreggAlan@reddit

If you want to get some promotion that will only cost you a shirt, send a shirt to Action Retro on YouTube. 243K subscribers. Dunno if LGR would wear one on his channel. Hit up other vintage/retro computer YouTubers who actually put themselves in their videos instead of just their hands.

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jarofcomics77@reddit

out of curiosity, where do you go to buy a trademark?

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Materidan@reddit

It was an abandoned trademark, so you can literally just go and re-register it for yourself. That’s why the “first use” date is shown as 2023 and not the 1990s - it’s a new, unrelated registration to the actual original Iomega registrations.

Speaking of which, they did not seem to get the Iomega name, so it can be risky to use it in any commercial capacity lest Lenovo decided to defend the legacy asset. There’s also an active application for someone else to register that name that’s currently pending.

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Istartedthewar@reddit

Oh if they got them through expiration and didn't actually get the IOMEGA name that makes me wonder- could the ZIP and JAZ logos still technically be protected by copyright?

I know the text is straightforwards but I'm not familiar with how trademark artwork works regarding copyright.

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Materidan@reddit

Trademark and copyrights are two different protections with their own clocks, and an expired trademark may still have copyright protection that could be enforced.

However, basic geometric shapes and text may not rise to the level of adequate artistic expression to warrant an enforceable copyright, which I guess is partly why they’re typically trademarked in the first place. If the trademark was for an intricate mascot design, then even an expired trademark would be illegal to use without infringing on copyright which lasts for a very long time.

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GreggAlan@reddit

That's why the specific design of Mickey Mouse from his earliest few cartoons, and the first iteration of Betty Boop are public domain, but not the subsequent versions.

You can sell stuff with Original Recipe Mickey but you don't dare put gloves on him.

However the names of the characters remain trademarked.

https://www.fleischerstudios.com/publicdomain.html

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Istartedthewar@reddit

Thank you for the explanation!

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m-in@reddit

Trademarks are there because the marks are not protected by copyright. So there would be nothing to protect them if copyright was the only thing. Trademarks and copyright laws are complementary. Something can be only protected by one of them.

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Stcharlesmatt@reddit

I am also curious.

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mjp31514@reddit

Cool. You should do some stickers, too.

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zipbyiomega@reddit (OP)

We do have stickers! We'll throw in a few with every order

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GreggAlan@reddit

Can you buy the Syquest trademarks too? Then you can go into competition with yourself. How about the Castlewood Orb drive trademarks?

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conceptualoctopus@reddit

We do have stickers! We’ll include a few goodies with every order

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MBSMD@reddit

Interesting. I had a bunch of Zip drives and a Jaz drive back in the day!

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mrdat@reddit

Same. Still have my 2gb Jaz that I can’t seem to let go. :(

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WalterSickness@reddit

I know a guy who worked at the design firm that did that identity system. Liljeqvist and Wargo. Fairfield county Connecticut. Long gone.

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FlyByPC@reddit

Will the apparel click when you wear it? /s

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Forsaken-Abrocoma647@reddit

I pretty recently got an album that's only physically available on Zip drive!
Remute's Chilloutquest EP (they specialize in dead media) - still some ZIP lovers out here!
https://remute.bandcamp.com/album/chilloutquest-ep-zip-disk

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FAMICOMASTER@reddit

Well, good luck with it. Hope something cool comes out of it and not just like, hats and shirts

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cheezedcake@reddit

Ya like Jaz?

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AIMRunningMan@reddit

Will you make new disks/drives, or will you just be selling old ones? It would be extremely uncool if you aren't doing that and thus by owning the trademarks are preventing others from making new ones.

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nevadita@reddit

man. crazy to think Zip is vintage to the point the company that made it is gone and the brand has been bought by an individual.

i still remember using the 100 discs. they were great to take stuff to printworks.

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phido3000@reddit

It would be great to have this branding on some SD/CF cards and make a ZIP/JAZ cartridge external SSD.

Also make a hat, where the hat is a drive and the brim is a disk sticking out.

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sleipnirreddit@reddit

A sure fire way to make sure nobody (with brains/history) will ever plug it into their computer.

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LowAspect542@reddit

This doesn't cover SD cards or ssds so go ahead and make your own. These trademarks are specific to use on clothing so they cant stop you.

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Silo-Joe@reddit

Sucks for you. I’m getting the trademark for the Bernoulli drive /s

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Istartedthewar@reddit

Bought the entire IOMEGA trademark too then I take it?

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LowAspect542@reddit

They haven't bought anything, theyve registered a new trademark for these two specific to clothing items.

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Istartedthewar@reddit

Ah gotcha. Was thrown off by their username being zipbyiomega

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cheezballs@reddit

Ha that's friggin cool man. As a youngster I was sold on the ls120 because it felt less "proprietary" than zip drives. I was silly.

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rinklkak@reddit

Had several Zip drives at work and at home. I had one that offered both SCSI and Parallel Port interfaces with a switch. I also had the Clik for my laptop.

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binary1230@reddit

Just curious, were the original trademarks class 25 (clothing) as well?

Were there other classes for the same brand?

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binary1230@reddit

I guess also, are the original logos still copyrighted (separate from the trademarks?). Or maybe these are reproductions you made yourselves so they're your copyright.

Either way, it's a pretty fun idea. Love the company name

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colin8651@reddit

The company my dad worked for had Zip disks available in the mailroom like boxes of disposable pens.

I had a little business in high school with my nerd friends.

Taught me a lot about business; when CD burners came out my market dried up overnight; I didn’t pivot

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Zh25_5680@reddit

Sometimes a disposable pin lasted longer than one of those disks

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colin8651@reddit

In my industry I called it repeat business

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wotmp@reddit

So your business was stealing from your father’s company?

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Stcharlesmatt@reddit

I think the flash drive market it really killed it

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MacAddict81@reddit

Well, it's hard to pivot from a free99 supplier to an actual one, really cuts into the margins.

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TheEvilBlight@reddit

Hah!

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termites2@reddit

That's great news.

I was given an Iomega Jaz 1GB drive and disks recently, though they don't seem to work with my Acorn A5000 SCSI Podule. (It sees it, but has some weird SCSI enumeration config error, rather than a disk/drive fault.)

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machacker89@reddit

Does that mean I can't use mine anymore -_- lol

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LowAspect542@reddit

Its only a trademark for clothing, so would only provide op a litigation option if you were to manufacture eg tshirts with zip branding. The trademark itself doesnt stop you doing anything.

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thetarasque@reddit

I believe its a solid move. Just brand a good quality external SD reader and SD cards or external case for SSDs . If it was actually good stuff i would pick it for the logo, brings back good memories

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LowAspect542@reddit

These trademarks are for clothing. They arent going to be marketing zip branded SDcards, just apparel aimed at a very specific retro niche. Tbh can't say zip was well enough liked for people to actually want tshirts and sweatshirts with the logo on.

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lilacomets@reddit

This is shady as hell. Also that username (zipbyiomega). The trademarks are owned by Lenovo.

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xesf@reddit

Never heard about Jaz drives but I use and have Zip drives still running on my old PC.

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Ok-Bug5206@reddit

I still use a 2GB JAZ drive for my 90s SCSI PowerBooks.

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stevecooley@reddit

I literally just saw an in-tact package for a zip drive that can connect to your serial *or* your parallel port, at a store called Savers in Santa Clara, CA. It supposedly came with free trials for a bunch of media editing software.

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applefreak111@reddit

Waaaaah may I ask how much it was to purchase these?? I have no clue they could be bought!

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JohnHellstone@reddit

I loved those zip drive cartridges. It was my go to backup medium.

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1Steelghost1@reddit

Why did just see a post about buying 'released IP' on instagram. Good luck OP seems like an interesting journey.

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jordansinn@reddit

Now this sub will be dedicated to people who are selling t-shirts for the failed technology company they bought the rights to.

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b00ty10v3r@reddit

Now add ZIP250 and drop a link for us!

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bluereptile@reddit

Always loved those logos. It worked really well as the product line expanded, and capacities changed.

My favorite will always be Iomega Clik!

Someone felt soooo stupid after all the marketing they put into that one lol

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TheDeadestCow@reddit

I loved my JAZ.... I'll tell you what, back then having 1GB on a removable disc that has access as fast as a hard drive was next level pimpin shit.

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Crafty_Dog_4226@reddit

Yeah, same here! I remember buying a Toshiba laptop with a SCSI interface just for that damn drive. And how fast it sounded when it spun up. Styling in green too. But, I did have several of those disk packs fail.

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gotkube@reddit

I’m coming up on the 30th anniversary of getting my Zip drive. It was truly amazing. I’m actually in the middle of a massive data archival project and am close to trying to access my original disks in an old internal drive that still (hopefully) works. The serendipity of seeing this post is pretty cool :)

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phillymjs@reddit

I still have mine, bought in 1995. I ordered it not long after the first MacWarehouse catalog offering it showed up in my mailbox. I think I even still have the invoice in a file drawer.

I do wonder if it would still work if I hooked it up to one of my old Macs. IIRC the early drives were pretty solid, and it was only after they became a huge success and were re-engineered to be cheaper to produce that we got the click-of-death prone ones.

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jordansinn@reddit

Can't wait for the SLOP Drive.

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conceptualoctopus@reddit

No way. I wonder if my old Zip drives have anything cool on them, where can I buy?

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jetsonian@reddit

If you’re fairly certain there isn’t any porn on the disks, I could transfer them for you for the price of keeping the discs.

I just don’t want to see junk I didn’t seek out.

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zipbyiomega@reddit (OP)

Check out zip.clothing !

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colin8651@reddit

That’s so stupid, why would someone want a Zip tee shirt…….. Let’s see, do they have my size? White? No, I spill too much; black it is.

lol

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conceptualoctopus@reddit

Gotta be extra careful with the white ones, no eating red sauce while you scroll

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colin8651@reddit

I discover all the time new ways to stain my shirts that no one has ever found.

Wearing a brand new fancy (overpriced) plain lite blue tee for the first time. I had my cold drink on a teak outdoor coffee table. The condensation adsorbed oil or something from the teak and stained my shirt the first time wearing it.

I get it, you don’t care, it just makes me so mad I needed to vent.

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sputwiler@reddit

I have washed some pink exercise socks to oblivion and back (If you offer something in bold magenta I will buy that version). There should've been nothing in them. I had washed them together with other stuff before and not had an issue.

The minute I wash my white pants they get stained pink.

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colin8651@reddit

Can you pull off the Don Johnson Miami Vice Pink Pants?

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SuperAleste@reddit

Jazz drive connected to an SGI was heaven back in the day. Never bothered with the Zip peasants.

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gotkube@reddit

Always wanted a Jaz as a mere Zip peasant. T’was not to be

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The_Grungeican@reddit

I have an unused one in the box if you’re interested. It’s a Sony model and comes with some sealed cartridges.

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DominantDan24@reddit

I used to sell both these back in the day. The Zip drives were great but failed often. The jaz drives were very solid as they were literally hard drive platters.

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jordansinn@reddit

Are we supposed to just support every grift that comes our way? Just selling t-shirts and old stock for nostalgia sake. This is a fly by night cash grab if I've ever seen one. There are plenty of respectable vintage computing company resurgences to follow, this doesn't sound like one.

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