“NoPT” but from where
Posted by PresentMammoth969@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 27 comments
Looking over a few random charts for an upcoming instrument check ride. Forgive me if I’m overlooking something here but, what direction of arrival is the “2000 NoPT” in the middle of the approach course referring to here?
Usually the NoPTs that I see are labeled on a feeder or segment of the approach which makes it super clear as to where exactly you shouldn’t conduct a PT. Not so clear here (at least to me).
ILS 06 KOZR
Brotein40@reddit
Bro ask your IP. What flight are you in?
ASAP_honorgraduate69@reddit
Hey just cause they are flying the ILS into cairns army airfield doesn’t mean they are in AI right now really hoping they’ll pass and make it to BWS. /s
Brotein40@reddit
It’ll blow this sub’s mind if they find out there are 300 of us trying to fly this approach all at the same time, twice a day
the_meat_servo@reddit
Memories of reciting TOT limits while shooting this approach intensify
Brotein40@reddit
The trick is if you start talking about dicks and balls your IP will start laughing and forget to ask you questions
ASAP_honorgraduate69@reddit
lol oh to be cairns approach, watching tweedle and tweedle dumb flights shooting the ILS to 500’ and then breaking off for their parking.
sandos1298@reddit
I think a big detail everyone’s missing about the HILO is that it’s in fact NOT a hold-in-lieu of PT pattern. It’s a thin lined arrival holding pattern and therefore isn’t authorized anyway without specific clearance by ATC. Source: controller, check the legend in the front of the IAP book and the AIM if you don’t believe me.
I have no idea the answer to the question though apart from it being a misprint.
FridayMcNight@reddit
For future you... if you see some unusual stuff on a plate, you can always call the TRACON ops desk and ask for clarification. I've done this on occasion and they are always friendly, helpful, and appreciative that you called instead of just sending it.
This doesn't help you on your checkride of course, but it's a useful thing to know for the future. There's a lot of ordinary procedure that's not published anywhere.
Example: I fly in and out of Whiteman airport (WHP) a lot. Whiteman has one runway; 12-30, and has a SID with procedures for either direction. The wind favors 12 about 90% of the time at WHP. First time I read over the procedure, it seemed like a lot of climbing and circling back into a very high traffic area. It looked kinda strange, so I called SoCal and asked how it works. The surprising part, SoCal will never ever give you IFR departure from Rwy 12 because it fucks up traffic too much. So it'll always be 30 (no matter the wind) and they do opp direction IFR departures all the time there. It's weird the first time you see it.
Anyhow, there are a lot of little oddities like that in the system, and in real life, it never hurts to call the controllers and ask them to help clarify the confusion.
MeanwhileInSovietRus@reddit
Whiteman is the worst for IFR traffic. Even though 30 is supposed to be better for traffic when you’re doing the WHP1 it still basically takes an act of god to get out of there without sitting in the runup area for 30+ minutes since SoCal has to clear a gap through basically the entire valley.
I did my instrument training there and that departure single-handedly pushed me back to Van Nuys, which has its own problems but I digress.
FridayMcNight@reddit
Yeah, and the few times the wind does favor 30, it's lively... like 320@25g36 kinda lively.
K20017@reddit
I tried this once with a very peculiar limitation on an approach plate and TRACON, tower, a local knowledgeable CFI, absolutely nobody knew why until I flew with a guy who used to work for the FAA and he knew immediately, I'll see if you can figure it out.
At KSRQ, on either the ILS or RNAV to 14/32, why is the ILS, LPV, and the LNAV/VNAV mins not available when the tower is closed?
RNAV 14 - https://www.flightaware.com/resources/airport/SRQ/IAP/RNAV+(GPS)+RWY+14/pdf
RNAV 32 - https://www.flightaware.com/resources/airport/KSRQ/IAP/RNAV+(GPS)+RWY+32/pdf
ILS 14
ILS 32
FridayMcNight@reddit
No clue. I had a few guesses, but none make sense for all of the approaches. My best guess is to prevent pilots who forget to activate lighting and land on US 41 thinking it's the runway.
Brotein40@reddit
Why?
K20017@reddit
The FAA guy I flew with used to work in airport inspections or something and he said "The runway hold short bars are too far forward and in the wrong spot". He showed me another airport that had them changed recently.
The Jepp chart taxi diagram gives a better warning about it but also does the AFD for the airport. Basically if the tower is closed, an aircraft could possibly be sitting inside the obstacle survey area for the approach rendering it not available. You can see the taxiways curve in towards the runway.
Satellite image
AFD Warnings about holding short of ILS critical at all times
randombrain@reddit
Ah, that makes sense. I did see those sentences but I wasn't sure what to make of them.
randombrain@reddit
Man, I should be able to figure this out...
I'm stumped. I kind of think my last point is the reason here, but I don't actually know why.
coma24@reddit
Appears to cover the case from JONAL, which also appears to be 100% redundant, because even without the NoPT it wouldn't be required. JONAL is an intermediate fix (IF) while JAMUP is BOTH an IAF and FAF. If you shot the approach from JONAL, the IF, you'd be crossing JAMP as the FAF, so the PT wouldn't have been relevant in any case. The straight-in is already implied by JONAL unless I'm missing something.
Can anyone build a case why JONAL to JAMUP would call for a PT at JAMUP if NoPT wasn't present?
Vegetable-Welder-318@reddit
If you were flying VORs and told direct Wiregrass, you’d cross Wiregrass then fly the 258 radial before intersecting JAMUP on the CAIRNS VOR on the 244 radial. Cross JONAL, fly out for a minute before turning left to a 199 heading. Fly 199 out for a minute before making a right turn back inbound on the 019 heading to re-intercept the 064 heading before getting to your IF if JONAL to fly the procedure
randombrain@reddit
That's if you want to fly the PT, and of course if you did that you'd already be aligned with the approach and so the reversal at JAMUP wouldn't be needed. Hence "NoPT" from JONAL.
But you could also stay at JAMUP and fly the HILPT instead.
It is unusual for an approach to have both types of course reversal; I'm not sure why they designed it this way, instead of making JONAL the IAF and putting just one reversal there. /u/kmac6821 is our relevant charting guru, he might have some insight.
kmac6821@reddit
I wish I could give insight. I asked a colleague and his response was similar to the experienced flyer here… Army is going to Army and likely made the IF inbound a NoPT to make it super clear that you aren’t doing the PT.
Don’t you dare say anything about radar vectors to final as being a reason to not fly the PT!
As someone else wrote on a Post-It note: “It doesn’t have to make sense.”
randombrain@reddit
You would expect the IAF to be the straight-in fix which is farthest from final. That's how it usually works. But this approach is different; the IAF is JAMUP (and the FAF is also JAMUP), while JONAL—farther out on final—is only an IF.
JAMUP has a published procedure turn. If you're flying along on a feeder route or an IF leg, and you get to a procedure turn, you're expected to execute the procedure turn... unless the leg is marked "NoPT." Which it is here, because you're already straight-in on the approach and a course reversal would be unnecessary.
i_should_go_to_sleep@reddit
I have flown this ILS/LOC hundreds of times and you are the first I’ve heard of to ask about this because Cairns gives vectors at exactly 2,000’ 100% of the time…
I believe if you’re arriving at JONAL above 2,000’ then you’d be expected to do the PT to continue your descent, unless cleared the straight in by approach. Always best to just confirm with approach, but the situation would never happen at Cairns because of their normal type of arrivals.
Go_Loud762@reddit
It looks like they mean if you're established inbound on the loc at 2,000 feet, you don't need to do a PT. Which seems pretty flipping obvious.
Maybe they want you to do the PT if you are above 2,000.
Dirty_Power@reddit
Short answer:
NoPT + altitude means don’t fly the procedure turn and cross that fix at the listed altitude.
Example: NoPT 3000 at a fix means: • Cross the fix at 3000 ft • Continue inbound • Do not do a procedure turn or course reversal when arriving via that route.
It’s basically telling you: you’re already aligned properly, just keep going inbound at that altitude.
No_Character_336@reddit
From JONAL
roundthesail@reddit
That's the leg from JONAL to JAMUP. So if you were instructed "proceed direct JONAL, cross JONAL at or above 2000, cleared ILS 6 approach," you wouldn't need to fly the hold-in-lieu.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Looking over a few random charts for an upcoming instrument check ride. Forgive me if I’m overlooking something here but, what direction of arrival is the “2000 NoPT” in the middle of the approach course referring to here?
Usually the NoPTs that I see are labeled on a feeder or segment of the approach which makes it super clear as to where exactly you shouldn’t conduct a PT. Not so clear here (at least to me).
ILS 06 KOZR
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