Rut roh, they are advertising this thing as a "Ebike"
Posted by Unhappy-Plastic2017@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 59 comments
https://us.engwe.com/products/3300-w-electric-bike-motor-engwe-m20-3-0-moped-style-ebike
While the 1.0 and 2.0 moped style ones could be considered ebikes just barely (class 2-3) with their power levels this one is definitely not an "ebike" and is well in the e-mote category... Man I want it but its definitely too powerful for bike paths and beyond even class 3 specifications. I wish I could get one of these things thats like limited to 20mph but keep all the torque so I could ride it on bike paths once enforcement starts cracking down nationwide on stuff like this.
robotcoke@reddit
It looks like a motorcycle, but I wouldn't call it one.
1: It only goes 20 MPH. It can be modified to go 40 MPH, but it ships as a 20 MPH bike.
2: Even at 40 MPH, that's a pretty slow motorcycle. Many busy streets in my area have a faster speed limit than that, and it wouldn't be allowed in the freeway as it's below the minimum speed.
3: Many children's (human power) bikes look like motorcycles. This isn't uncommon. Even the little plastic "big wheel" tricycles are made to look like a motorcycle. I remember even putting playing cards in the spokes so it would sound like a motorcycle when I had a bike that looked like a motorcycle as a kid.
4: This unit still has working pedals.
With all of that, this is a bike not a motorcycle. It looks like a motorcycle, but it's a bike.
cas84911@reddit
My piano has wheels, working pedals, and goes slower than a motorcycle and wouldn't be allowed on the freeway. Does that make it a bike, also?
If the seat isn't adjustable then the pedals are for theater meaning it doesn't qualify as a bike OR a moped. Just because the pedals spin ("work"), doesn't make them usable for anyone except people of a very specific height.
robotcoke@reddit
If you can pedal it and go then yes it's a bike. Don't be a moron.
Spoken like a true moron. Most small children's bikes, including the plastic "big wheel" style I referenced in my comment, don't have adjustable seats either.
If the pedals work, it's a bike. It's not "only a bike if cas84911 thinks the seat and pedals are comfortable." Lol. If it functions as a bike, then "it's a bike even if cas84911 doesn't think it's comfortable and doesn't want to ride that style of bike."
cas84911@reddit
Damn. You're so stuck on your memories of the big wheel 3-year-old shit his diapers in, that you completely missed the point I was making. But go ahead an call me the moron. 😂🤣
When did you last ride that big wheel? A few weeks ago? 😂
Svechinskayaa@reddit
Smh. Reducing to insults.
You're saying they missed the point, but you're the one ignoring what they said and insulting them 🥴
cas84911@reddit
They called me a moron first. Open your eyes and read everythjng before responding. Your "high and mighty" response has fallen flat on its face.
Dook23@reddit
To be fair, you did equate your piano to a bike, which is a little dumb.
cas84911@reddit
Just making a point... That just because it met his little criteria, it didnt make his point true... The only reason these have pedals at all is just to take advantage of loopholes and what you end up with are 13 year olds riding 40MPH down mixed use paths that ruin shit for people who just want to ride their class 1s 2s and 3s in peace. If you need proof, New Jersey.
Dook23@reddit
I get you but I understand the moron comment as well due to the comparison. I hear you though too on certain people ruining it for everyone else.
Dook23@reddit
Uhhh most mopeds have bench style seats that aren’t adjustable so not sure what you are referring to.
DJKaito@reddit
By the US and EU laws 3.3Kw / 3300W is this considered a motorcycle, Scooter or S-Pedelec, regardless of top speed. This means in all cases, drivers license, insurance and license plate + motorcycle gear or at least motorcycle helmet.
Dook23@reddit
This is only partial correct. Most laws are state or locality based and in some areas vehicles such as 49cc scooters don’t required licensing or insurance. Used to ride a 49cc scooter (which had a top speed of around 35 mph) for years and it wasn’t required in my area.
thephotoman@reddit
US laws allow anything that cranks 750W nominal power as an ebike. 3.3kW peak power is within normal limits for a 750W nominal motor. (Read the specs in the link: it details that yes, the motor is a 750W nominal motor.)
As such, US law outside of California (which disqualifies it based on the throttle) and New Jersey (which just hates ebikes) considers this an ebike, so long as it is not modified.
robotcoke@reddit
The motor operates at 750W and the peak is 3300W. 750W and 20 MPH is actually the limit for ebikes in the US, and this is how the unit ships. So this is technically an ebike. It can be modified to do more, but it's actually just an ebike out of the box.
DJKaito@reddit
My bad I missed the 750W rated in the description.
Dook23@reddit
It’s a moped and it’s even states in the website. Not exactly an ebike OR an emoto.
Unhappy-Plastic2017@reddit (OP)
the only thing im concerned with is future enforcement of bike path laws in america - its not really here yet but its coming in more and more places - maybe other people have not been keeping up with this as much as I have, Id prefer straight speed limits on bike paths enforced by motorcycle cops like they do in south carolina than any real restriction on power of battery powered vehicles.
robotcoke@reddit
The restriction on power is already a federal law. I'm also in the states and following the sudden surge of ebike restriction laws. My theory is it's because Palantir tracking cameras are going up all over the place and ebikes don't have license plates.
BXRunner@reddit
They clearly state, "Moped style e-bike".
That exists. That's what you're looking at. That's also an ebike.
A green apple is still an apple nonetheless. It just looks green and taste slightly different.
Also, you don't have to smash the throttle on your bike. You can bring a 60mph bike on a bike path... Just go slow. That shouldn't sway your opinion on owning one. If you're worried about police, you shouldn't because that bike is within legal specs. You see the big 3kw but that motor is 750w... Legal is most places. It's the controller overclocking the motor.
Also, running a 750w GEARED motor at 3300w "peak" is too much. That motor won't last long with high usage via heat. I grenaded magnets on a geared motor running 1kw at 3kw peak for 30 miles one way. No more than 3 minutes at a time at 3kw either and my average was 2.5kw for the entire trip.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
I hope your emoto is impounded while you riding it on a bike trail.
BXRunner@reddit
You're no better than a car truther yelling at a cyclist in the road, where they can be.
Piss off.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
WTF is a "car truther"?
For the record, road cyclists that insist on riding on high speed roads with no shoulder and slowing down traffic for a pleasure ride are idiots too.
I have a road bicycle, I don't ride it on highways.
BXRunner@reddit
Why do you keep bringing up stuff that's irrelevant? No one said anything about cyclists being in high speed roads... I said the ROADS THEY CAN AND SHOULD BE. I know reading is hard these days...
Imagine saying "How dare you buy that car that goes 160MPH for these 60MPH highways BAN THEM!"
You see how dumb that looks? No one said anything about doing high speeds in bike paths.. You keep bringing up nonsense. No cyclist has ever taken the highway .. what are we doing??
Also if I have to explain what a car truther is because you lack imagination..... Help me Lord.
Dook23@reddit
He deleted his replies to me as well but not after making one last reply which he then deleted as well right after. He accused me of making mistakes and focusing on unimportant details when he was the one throwing out random nonsense that didn’t reflect what was being discussed. Hopefully he deleted them because he realized he was sounding ridiculous.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
Why do you keep coming back with your unwanted rants. Let me help you, kid.
Dook23@reddit
Basically he means someone in a car who feels they are better than a cyclist, like those who ride manual bikes that frown on e-bikes. Note he didn’t say highways (or interstates) though and cyclists are allowed on most any roads besides them. Nor did he even mention pleasure ride. It could be commuters or others.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
I have no issues with respectful cyclists? Why would I, I cycle regularly. I have issues with motorists that turn in front of cyclists halfway across the street rather than wait 5 seconds.
Dook23@reddit
Considering you hoped my own vehicle got impounded you for sure have an issue with with respectful cyclists, of which I am. I just happen to ride on something that is capable ( note I said capable, doesn’t mean I ride fast ) of going faster than 28 mph. While my ride can go a little over 30 I ride at an average speed of about 18-20 because I have to ride on the streets at times.
Dook23@reddit
Would you really wish this upon someone who bought the moped style vehicle the OP posted that rode appropriately on the trail? Seems harsh. it is also a moped that can be pedaled after all, not a real emoto.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
Yes, I would. I'm tired of legit ebikes being banned, including in my neighborhood, because kids think they should be able to ride anywhere on their Surron style emotos.
Dook23@reddit
That’s still harsh. Basically means you hope my ride gets banned too which is very kind of you. Note I did refer to the model the OP posted and not en emoto such as a Surron. If trail/path rules/laws would just be enforced we wouldn’t have all these issues anyway as things like Surron are already illegal.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
Wrong. Local ordinances can restrict ebikes even where not prohibited by state law. I've already covered this and you seemed to have ignored it.
Dook23@reddit
Restrictions are different than being banned in general. Even for restrictions that’s usually for sidewalks and trails. The average speed limits in the U.S. on shared trials is between 10-15 mph which even a manual bike rider can break but I am making an educated guess that you think class 1-3 bikes should be allowed on them even though their capabilities exceed those limits. Why not someone on a bike that can achieve 30 mph riding 12 mph not also being allowed on the same trails? Or are you one of those people who blame the cars when someone gets a DUI?
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
Banned on the trails. FFS if you are going to resort to pedantry and insults rather than acknowledge your mistake and failure to read, we are done.
ornithobiography@reddit
My honest opinion is if you really want to regulate ebike classification properly. Aside from limiting wattage to 750W, next step would be limiting frame design. Only allowing traditional triangle frame and cutting down on cafe racer frames would definitely more effective than just requiring a set of pedals on the bike.
stormdelta@reddit
Regulating frame design would be extremely tricky, especially with the variety of cargo, trikes, and recumbent designs out there.
IMO a better target is weight, and we can set the limit relatively high to account for cargo bikes.
Weight has a pretty direct impact on momentum and handling especially at speed.
DonnPT@reddit
What do you picture as a potential threshold for e-bike/e-moto? The pictured M20 is listed at 102 lbs. Without battery, reportedly 77 lbs.
stormdelta@reddit
The tricky bit is avoiding screwing over cargo e-bikes. If we don't want to create a special exception for them, I'd say the limit needs to be somewhere in the 85lb range, otherwise could be lower maybe 75lb (with battery).
My own ebike is just over 70lbs, and that's with a steel hardtail MTB frame + direct hub motor + larger battery for range + aluminum fenders + accessories and panniers.
You'd still see moped-style bikes, but the point of the weight limit is less to stop that and more to constrain handling/braking/etc to safer limits.
DonnPT@reddit
Whew! Just weighed mine - 38.6 kg = 84.92 lbs. It was already a fairly heavy recumbent before the direct hub, battery, fenders, panniers ... Luckily I'm only 165 lbs or so.
stormdelta@reddit
Yeah, recumbent would be one of the exception cases IMO along with cargo bikes since their design usually requires three wheels or other additional parts.
DonnPT@reddit
Sure, considering that mine got perilously close to 85 lbs with only 2 wheels. I guess it's a matter of perspective, but to me, it's more like "design of tricycles usually requires them to be recumbent." I guess I don't have any particular reason to care how many wheels a vehicle has, but if it's a bicycle, after 2 the rest must be on trailer.
BassesNBikes@reddit
So twice as heavy as an ebike.
Dannyz@reddit
What is traditional bike framing? Sounds unamerican as fuck. Going to regulate away electric beach cruisers with a low post so women in skirts can ride it? How about outlawing fun electric penny farthings (old style bike with big wheel and little wheel). Should we outlaw electric art bikes?
Also kids LOVE motorcycle looking bikes. Should we not allow non motorized cafe racer style ebikes?
Sorry but I don’t support regulating frames at all.
DJKaito@reddit
The big thing is enforcing the actual existing rules is a thing they should do. It's not just a US problem, but a worldwide one, regardless if you are in America, Europe or Australia. Police need to be more schooled/educated about this and they should enforce the laws.
qwertyqwerty4567@reddit
There are more requirements to be legally considered a bike, the companies don't care cause no one is stopping them from selling illegal bikes, and the people don't care either.
Unhappy-Plastic2017@reddit (OP)
ya this is probably a thing that will eventually happen to make it easier to police to enforce
Dannyz@reddit
No everyone uses the same classifications. In some states / countries anything with pedals are bikes and have been for decades. It’s why there were pedals on the Honda hobbit and Honda ss50 from the 60s/70s.
You’re making a mountain out of a molehill due to only understanding wherever you live’s laws and thinking it applies globally.
Also, as dope as this style looks, they suck as both e mopeds and e bikes. The pedal angle is terrible for using it a bicicle and add unnecessary weight / complexity for emopeds.
atlasraven@reddit
I say this all the time about NA regulations. We should stop just blanket assuming anyone with a moped style or e-dirt bike is riding recklessly.
Unhappy-Plastic2017@reddit (OP)
my wife been riding one like this for years and the pedals actually work really well for her and she pedals a ton but yeah it only works well if you math the exact limited height range for the moped style ebikes to be comfortable to pedal. And yea im aware not everyone uses the same classifications but all this stuff is starting to get more and more traction in being standardized and im not hearing of any that would allow a 40mph moped style "ebike" on bike paths in america.
SwollenMexican@reddit
Same. I have a moped style bike and i fit in that small percentage where I can pedal efficiently. My other sibling sits taller and my wife is shorter and they cant pedal it at all lol. Its fun seeing people looking at me.like.. why are you peddling xD yet some cops have given me a thumbs up for not being a dumbass and following city laws
Dannyz@reddit
You are talking about a Chinese vehicle and applying your states classification. This bike is made by Shenzhen Zhiqu Vehicle Industry Co. there is not that much standardization when you exit your bubble. This bike wasn’t made to target your state. Youre like a conservative fuck in Texas complaining that someone in Oregon is a murderer because they removed a non-viable fetus. Different definitions for different people.
Stop being an old man complaining about the clouds.
Unhappy-Plastic2017@reddit (OP)
hu?
Dannyz@reddit
Are you a dumbass? Unless you’re dumb, don’t act dumb. You know what I said. You are a moral provincialist and legal parochialist who engages in imperialism while displaying jurisdictional myopia when you complain about conduct that is lawful where it is manufactured but not where you live.
FUBAR_The_Clown@reddit
I’ll put some playing cards in the spokes for the real motorcycle sounds!!!
atlasraven@reddit
EUC World's app has a feature for exactly that. https://youtu.be/7RNvz34xq5Y
Physical_Click9769@reddit
It has usable pedals, 2 wheels and electric, its an ebike, dont be an elitist. Even it had more power and was illegal just don't be a douche on it, but I guess if cops are assholes in ur town thats a different story.
Unhappy-Plastic2017@reddit (OP)
I actually dont really care what it really is considered.... I come at this from an american perspective that is looking at the various laws and resctictions on ebikes I see poping up across the country and I guess im predicting this one wont be one that is allowed in the future from what Ive seen.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
Being able to put the bike in off-road mode (>class 3) isn't really that much different than a bike that can be switched from class 3 to class 1 to be allowed on restricted paths. It will still come down to enforcement of actual use, not sales.
Unhappy-Plastic2017@reddit (OP)
I hope this is the case too - my use case would be using an ebike like this to commute a 20 mile commute to work route that has just 50% of the trip is official paved bike path , some rural road with like no traffic, some 45 mph car speed limit road riding on shoulder, I fear in the future this type of bike wont be allowed on american bike paths tho when enforcement actually kicks in which im not worried about quite yet in my area.