Why did North Macedonia join Yugoslavia if their language is different?

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Think_Beginning1166@reddit

Well, Long story short We didn’t join Yugoslavia by a choice, we were part of Serbia ( occupied) back then.

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Strange_Status_7690@reddit

in the Kingdom of SHS there were no Macedonians recognized. There the historical IMRO was still Bulgarian and wanted to revolt as is the successful attempt for the assassination of the SHS king.

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Think_Beginning1166@reddit

Aha so we become Macedonians magically, not that VMRO was fighting for independent Macedonia, not at all

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Strange_Status_7690@reddit

I didn't said that. But trying to deny the Bulgarians from historical IMRO and Macedonia before 1913 specifically, is a level of knowledge of a monkey.

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Nobody is denying that some Bulgarians fought for IMRO But denying Macedonians and our country is not be, right ? But since u are brainwashed and blinded by propaganda it is pointless to continue this conversation

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S-onceto@reddit

Did you forget about Slovenia?

It was Yugoslavia, not Serbo-Croatia.

Also Macedonian is its own language. It is not a dialect.

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Am_aBoy@reddit

Heh

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shortEverything_@reddit

By that remark Bulgarian is also a dialect

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dwartbg9@reddit

Dialect of what?

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Denturart@reddit

Macedonian was a dialect until it was codified into a separate language in 1945.

(I have nothing against Macedonian language specifically. All languages are just dialects before they are codified. Most European languages (including Slovenian) were codified already in the 19th century or earlier.

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int23_t@reddit

Depends on your definition of dialects and languages, as the saying goes, a language is a dialect with a military

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starshootersupreme@reddit

macedonian is less differnt to serbo croatian then south german and not german

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Vertebruv@reddit

It is in fact very different.

We use some of the same words but the grammatical rules and syntax are very different.

Macedonians are constantly exposed to the Serbo-Croatian language, so most of us can understand it - but rarely will you see someone speak or write it properly, even if they are brimming with confidence that they absolutely know the language.

On the other hand Serbs and Croats have a hard time understanding us due to less exposure to Macedonian language and culture.

When it comes to Bulgarians - it's the exact opposite. They can mostly understand us, I have no clue how since I don't feel like they are exposed to that much Macedonian culture , but we can't understand them that much.

Quite a common trope here is that Serbs are pretending not to understand Macedonian, and Macedonians are pretending not to understand the Bulgarians.

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_-Event-Horizon-_@reddit

 When it comes to Bulgarians - it's the exact opposite. They can mostly understand us, I have no clue how since I don't feel like they are exposed to that much Macedonian culture , but we can't understand them that much.

I don’t mean it as an insult, but if I were to use a software analogy Bulgarian is like “backwards compatible” with Macedonian. A lot of the words that are used in modern day Macedonian were used in older Bulgarian and especially in various dialects around Bulgaria but were replaced with more modern words so while people might not use them in day to day speech, they know what they mean.

A good example is “люде” vs “хора” which was used over Reddit recently as an example of how Bulgarian is different. But “люде” is absolutely valid word in Bulgarian, it’s just older and sounds more archaic so it wouldn’t be out of place in literature but would sound weird in day to day speech, even if everyone would understand you.

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starshootersupreme@reddit

depends from where in serbia , i am from Krushevac and i understand both macedonian and bulgarian ...

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Aggravating_Key2725@reddit

That's pretty much correct. My cousin just married a Serbian woman and her family have a very hard time understanding Macedonian if we don't "Serbianise" it to make ourselves understood.

Bulgarians understand us because half of them are descendants of Macedonian refugees, we speak like their grandparents. They are also very exposed to Macedonian music. Plus, our Eastern dialects are not that different to the dialects they're familiar with in Western Bulgaria. Sure, they may struggle more with standard Macedonian, but even I, as someone from Western Macedonia, can struggle to understand the odd person from Strumica sometimes.

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canastataa@reddit

The different and somewhat random stressing in the words in standard Bulgarian is what makes it sound totally foreign to the Macedonian,Serbian and western Bulgarian fixed stressing. Ive heard its easier for them to read it then to listen to it. Then there are like 200 differing main words that you need to know to get good comprehension.

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Strange_Status_7690@reddit

It is so because Macedonia had no connections or very poor once since 1946 with Bulgaria, and staying in both first and second Yugoslavia and Serbian oriented.

this culture, mentality and exposure made it further isolated from Bulgarian. Both also the historical IMRO worked for both stronger connections with Bulgaria and this history didn't materialise because of the Balkan and world wars.

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Mesenterium@reddit

Did you think anyone asked them who they wanted to join?

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Proud-Ad-5206@reddit

Yes. Don't rewrite history.

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SuedeJacketMonster@reddit

So who asked them?

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Rick_Sanchez888@reddit

The one and only marshal Tito

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Proud-Ad-5206@reddit

Yup.

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Proud-Ad-5206@reddit

The Chosen one.

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Aggravating_Key2725@reddit

It didn't have a choice. It joined the first Yugoslavia after WW1 after having been conquered by Serbia. It later rejoined the second Yugoslavia because the communists took power and handed it back to Belgrade. Given the choice, Macedonians in the early 20th century would always have chosen independence or to join Bulgaria.

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shortEverything_@reddit

or to join Bulgaria.

No thanks was the literal butthtole of Europe while Yugoslavia was miles ahead

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Aggravating_Key2725@reddit

That just shows a complete misunderstanding of the entire Macedonian revolutionary, literary and intellectual movement of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

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Magistar_Idrisi@reddit

because the communists took power and handed it back to Belgrade.

Macedonian* communists took power and turned Macedonia into a highly autonomous federal state within Yugoslavia.

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Aggravating_Key2725@reddit

A large part of the Macedonian communists were pro-independence. They were quickly dispensed with, being imprisoned, executed, or fleeing into exile to Bulgaria. They were quickly replaced by pro-Serbian communists.

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Strange_Status_7690@reddit

True however, Belgrade installed Macedonian Communists like Kolishevski and others who further erased the Bulgarians in the communist Macedonia.

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driftstyle28@reddit

That's what a Bulgarian would say😂

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zdubargo@reddit

Skill issue

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relaksirano@reddit

You could have asked the same for Slovenia but you didnt which tells more about your intentions.

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Strange_Status_7690@reddit

It's a historical fact that the Macedonian dialects were adjacent to the main Bulgarian standard language before the communist hand came in power and codified the MK language in 1944, making it distinct from Bulgarian, which is not deniable.

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shortEverything_@reddit

Consensus outside of Bulgaria is the languages are seperate - we standardised on central dialects and standardised based on your eastern dialects - case closed, they’re different enough

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Strange_Status_7690@reddit

MK is a wicked country and people brainwashed with a state level propaganda. Either way it will colaps when Albania will enter EU.

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moisthotdogg@reddit

Kind of ironic to think of another country's people as wicked and brainwashed and then in the same breath insinuate you'd be glad if they collapse, starve or fall behind. The call is coming from inside the house buddy. But that's the thing with Bulgarian nationalists that I've noticed. They pretend they see you as a brother and then want you to die if you oppose them in any way. Was it about kinship or was it about control?

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shortEverything_@reddit

How’s your 8th re-election going? A country stability is solidified by stable government not just EU handouts

The only wicked fuck here is you

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Strange_Status_7690@reddit

You are probably Srbo. Bulgaria is a deeply integrated European country with prosperity and stability. The GDP per capita is three times larger than MK or Serbja

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relaksirano@reddit

You are totally missing the point

The Nazis and Bulgarians occupied and terrorized Macedonia duting WW2 and yet that 16 year old guy is asking this question. Hillarious

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Strange_Status_7690@reddit

How wicked country is mk is seeing the comments you have. Brainwashed people and state level propaganda.

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relaksirano@reddit

thanks for this very strong and profound comment

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shortEverything_@reddit

Living rent free in the bulgars wicked mind

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Strange_Status_7690@reddit

You are probably Serbo

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relaksirano@reddit

Its like asking in 10 years: Why did Ukraine join EU (and not Russia)?

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Suitable-Decision-26@reddit

Nobody asked them is the jist of it.

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BigFreakingZombie@reddit

They didn't exactly join they were absorbed. Please be advised that you're opening a huge can of worms as the Macedonian Question is one of the most (if not THE most ) complicated subject in the Balkans that ties great power politics,geopolitical disputes over trade flows and the (VERY VERY complicated) issues of genetic and cultural continuity together to produce a cocktail of nationalism that can (and did in the past) have violent consequences....

Prior to 1918 Macedonia was a disputed between it's neighbors piece of territory that ultimately ended up part of Yugoslavia as part of the post-WW1 settlement in the peninsula.
During the 1930s the idea of Macedonians and Macedonia as a separate people and nation became increasingly mainstream mostly pushed by the Communist International which viewed it as a perfect catalyst to create anti-capitalist revolutions in the Balkans.... during WW2 the area ended up under Bulgarian occupation (a period marked by significant atrocities against the local population) with the increasingly active Yugoslav communist resistance pushing for the eventual autonomy of the region as part of a postwar communist Yugoslavia.

Then you throw in Tito's plans to absorb various pieces of territory from neighboring nations and his eventual split with Stalin (triggered but not caused by the Greek Civil War) and you get the modern Macedonian Question... and as you can see that at no point did the difference between Macedonian and Serbian play any role in the decisions taken.

Please be advised that this is a very rough explanation of the general events that led to Macedonia being part of Yugoslavia as to explain it properly would take several books (and trigger a war or three) .

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Strange_Status_7690@reddit

The fact as present N.Macedonia had no bilateral relations with Bulgaria from the era 1946-1991 and further has been under Serbian influence even as an independent language.

if the people from both countries cannot understand each other well or have no connections look how it looks today being MK and Bulgaria being so distant.

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Fred_Neecheh@reddit

North Macedonia became part of Kingdom of Yugoslavia (SHS) , after becoming part of the Kingdom of Serbia following Balkan wars in 1912-1913. Serbia regarded North Macedonia as "South Serbia" in account of a part of its medieval history and considered it integral to its state. Serbianization, while unpopular, did leave many with knowledge of Serbian as a second language.

In 1945 it wasnt like there was a popular referendum anywhere on reestablishing Yugoslavia. Bulgaria was Axis-turned-Allied meanwhile new Yugoslav government was clearly a victor.

As part of its agreement with Soviets in 1944, Bulgarians had to withdraw from Yugoslav territory occupied in 1941 and also support the fightinging (turn sides) against Germans in parts of Yugoslavia still Axis-occupied.

Finally, Stalin wanted Bulgaria itself to join Yugoslavia, effort initially supported by communists on both sides. It stalled over the issue of the composition of the federation, Bulgarians wanting it as a Yugoslav-Bulgarian federation (to be joined by others in the Balkans), Yugoslavs wanting Bulgaria as a seventh conatitutent republic thus presumably diluting its power. After Yugoslav split w Stalin in 1948 that effort died completely.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

I think greater Yugoslavia was a Tito idea, which Stalin didn't oppose at first, at least until Tito and Stalin grew very significant differences.

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Fred_Neecheh@reddit

Balkan Federation was the official Comintern line as of 1935 iirc

On the specifics after the war, not sure who was pushing for it more. I think Stalin wanted another, smaller Soviet Union in the Balkans provided he would get to control it. Both Yugoslavs and Bulgarian communists helped Greek communists in the civil war there, I think the hope being a communist Greece joining in the Balkan Federation. As well as Albania, Hoxha being close to Tito up until the split with Stalin.

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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

*Yugoslavs and Bulgarian communists helped Greek communists in the civil war there"

people forget this.

we refused to bomb/play a part, in Nato's Yugoslavia intervention.

yet, Yugoslavia (decades back) tried to, essentially, "destroy" (break apart) the country.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

Idea for large Balkan USSR like federation was present even in early twenties. Comintern has a lot to do with that for sure. And Northern Greece was part of that idea. After Stalin Tito split "titoists" were viewed as traitors in Bulgaria and Romania and that part of the history isn't talked about much. I guess it's not that easy to say who wanted it more. Both Bulgarian and Yugoslav communist were supporting it until certain point.

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Ujemegaz@reddit

Macedonian language is closer to Bulgarian, but Serbia managed to exert more influence. Eventually they became more sympathetic to Serbia, and i can't explain why is it so. Imo, Bulgarians are less religious and more nationalistic, while Macedonian Slavs are more religious and less nationalistic, so they viewed Serbia as some sort of protectors.

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Strange_Status_7690@reddit

It is so because due to Balkan wars and the agreements of the Balkan powers, after the Ottoman defeat the Macedonia it's today part remain in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and later in SFRY, the later communist federation maintained even worse relations with Bulgaria, because Bulgaria lost the WW2 for which it was a collaborator and further the Macedonia was isolated from Bulgaria.

Due to the language today Bulgarians view MK language as a different, while politically maintaining it's a dialect of the standard Bulgarian, for which there is a historical connection.

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Strange_Status_7690@reddit

In short:

Historical IMRO which was Bulgarian organization aimed to free Makedonija from the Ottomans was reluctant and polarised over the issues if historical region of Macedonia should be integrated in Bulgaria or to become independent autonoums country.

However this choice wasn't on disposal to be chosen by the organisation itself or by Bulgaria, but by the historical events which are complex in the Balkans.

In the Balkan wars, the historical region of Macedonia was divided and the Vardar part remained in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, cutting it's ties with Bulgaria.

Bulgaria later intervened with a coup in the IMRO leadership just not to worsen it's relation with Yugoslavia as the IMRO itself didn't liked the SHS kingdom were the people there were considered as South Serbia.

IMRO figures themselfes helped the Croatian Ustaše party to organize the assassination of the king of the SHS in France.

Also Bulgaria lost the WW2 for which it did had plans to annex Macedonia for which it occupied during 3 years.

By forming the communist rule, later Bulgarians were expelled from MK and everything Bulgarian was deleted and forbidden, so Macedonians there were Yugo oriented and cut out the ties with Bulgaria for the next 46 years.

However we must bite, these are different historical periods and the leadership of IMRO considered themselves as Bulgarians speaking in Bulgarian, most notably the hero's of present day MK, Gotse Delchev, Nikola Karev or Yane Sandanski.

About the MK language itself was a different dialect from the standard Bulgarian ever since, but the Yugo communists codified it as a separate language in 1944 with a declaration.

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Own_Organization156@reddit

It was part of serbia at the time bether but still not grete question wulde be why did slovenia join yugoslavia considering even bigger lenguge difrenc macedonian being mostly mutually intelegable with serbocroatian while slovenian is bit closer gramaticly compered to macedonian its vocabulary most important part of slavic lenguge is quite divergent

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Hopeful_Addition7834@reddit (OP)

Which century, bro

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