Ottoman campaigns in Albania (by Greek historian Kritoboulos) Reliable?
Posted by Bitter-Tadpole6047@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 48 comments
Posted by Bitter-Tadpole6047@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 48 comments
Separate-Date-6518@reddit
Its really interesting how he describes Albanians as Illyrians and Hungarians as Paeonians.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
I assume he uses Roman geographical terms to describe the people because Pannonians were just a subgroup of Illyrians.
Separate-Date-6518@reddit
It says Paeonians, not Pannonians, which makes it weirder due to greater geographical distance
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Pannonians or Paenonians are the same people and they were as far as modern day Austria
Separate-Date-6518@reddit
The Paeonians had their own tribes and even kingdom (briefly). It is true that they were similar to Illyrians mostly and Thracians too, but Pannonians would make more sense for Hungarians, since they lived at the heartland of the medieval Hungarian kingdom
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
They are classified as an Illyrian tribe and yes they expanded and had a Kingdom exactly as the Dardanians or the Ardians but that does not mean they were not Illyrians ,Kritobolous is clearly referring to Hungarians (they were aready 3-4 centuries before his writings) but he simply uses Roman Empire geographical terms to referr to the people of that area.
Separate-Date-6518@reddit
I didn't say they were not Illyrians. I'm just saying that the Paeonians were very limited geographically in what is now North Macedonia, north parts of Greece, southwestern Bulgaria and southeast Albania. Pannonians on the other hand corresponds directly with lands of the medieval Hungarian kingdom. That's all. It would make more sense to call then Pannonians, instead of Paeonians or Dardanians, no matter how similar those groups were.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
No you are simply wrong ,they were far north and paenonians and pannonians are the same ppl they were bordering Celts in the north and the area itself was mix Illyrian-Celt ,the only difference that Romans were the ones to define the “borders” of that time and as they made Province Illyricum,Province Dalmatia they also did Province Pannonia and Pannonia corresponds to modern day Serbia,Hungaria,Austria etc. Kritobolous is just using Roman geographical terms to refer to people living in those provinces,some people argue he does that(as many other historians ) to make his historical statements more appealing.
Separate-Date-6518@reddit
The Paeonians were not that far north, they lived around in what is now North Macedonia and they were similar to Illyrians and Thracians. The Pannonians lived in areas of modern Hungary, Serbia and Austria as you said. Yes Kritoboulos does that, as other historians of the time did, but it would make more sense to call Hungarians as Pannonians instead of Paeonians.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
They were that far north ,what you saying it does not make sense ,is like saying Graeci and Greci is not referring to the same group which would be silly . They were bordering Celts north and that area was mixed ,there is literally an Illyrian-Celt ancient settlement 50 km south Vienna and those were probably the Pannonians.
damjan193@reddit
Bro Paeonia and Pannonia are/were two entirelly different territories and people, what are you talking about? They didn't even exist in the same time period iirc. They just have a similar name, a quick google search will tell you this. Confusing those two it's like confusing Iran and Iraq.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_(kingdom)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
“In the Early Iron Age, Transdanubia was inhabited by the Pannonians or Pannonii,[note 1] a collection of Illyrian tribes” At least read before you list the source ,do not conflate modern borders with ancient geography
damjan193@reddit
Exactly, that's PANNONIA, in the proximity of the Danube river. PAEONIA is an entirely differnt entity, based in the proximity of the Vardar river. Two different things.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Look Appian ,he calls those people Paenonians not Pannonians
damjan193@reddit
Yes, he might have. It's a common and well known mistake even in ancient historians, look it up. Today we know that they are different people, but even scholars used to confuse them back in the day.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
😂😂you need to insult me cuz I just embarrassed you
damjan193@reddit
You only embarrass yourself. Even with clear evidence provided you refuse to admit you are wrong, that's a clear lack of mental capacity.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
What clear evidence??you have some issues dude
damjan193@reddit
Did you not see the links I posted?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_(kingdom)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia
It clearly explains the difference between the two.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Did you read it?😂😂what a clown ,why Appian would use the name Paenoians??😂😂
damjan193@reddit
I already told you, he's confusing them because of lack of Balkan knowledge since he's not Balkan himself. It's not bad to be wrong but to still die on a hill even with overwhelming evidence presented to you is a clear mental impairment. Even Appian would have aknowledged his mistake by now. Why would there be two different wikipedia pages do you reckon?
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
“During this time, the tribe started raiding the new province of Macedonia, and —Strabo says— expanded as far as Paeonia, Illyria, and Thrace.[“
You extremely stupid for not reading your own source😂😂
damjan193@reddit
THE TRIBE, meaning the PANNONIAN tribe, expanded as far as PAEONIA. How can the the SAME tribe expand into itself?
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
So let us dismiss Strabo now😂😂 It is very simple from an ancient perspective ,there were no modern nations or modern borders neither a sense of modern identity ,tribes used to move and name places and in this case being named from others(Romans and Greeks)the Panonnian region got its name from the Romans due the Paenonian/Panonnian tribe/s . Stop thinking in a modern way and you will understand it better.
damjan193@reddit
Ah, OK, you were not that dumb then. I do not think in modern sense at all. I also realize that even ancient historians make mistakes. The Paeonians that Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides etc. talk about are not the same people and deffinitely not the same teritorry that Roman historians mention CENTURIES later. Your initial argument was about location, and the ancient Hellenic historians clearly place the Paonians on the Vardar river. The cities of Vylazora and Stobi are famous Paonian cities and are obviouslt not located on the Danube river (the ruins of Stobi exist even today, near the city of Veles). Strabo even says Paonians came from modern day Turkey, and later settled on the Vardar river.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
My initial claim was the geographical location from the Romans ,I specified it and you should have read it and I also said they used Roman geographical terms to refer to the people of that Area not necessarily meaning they refer to the same group of people but the name itself was used for a vast Illyrian sub -tribes and that does not mean the Hungarians in living there in the 15th century were the same ancient Pannonians ,it was just a simple geographical term used from the Romans.
damjan193@reddit
I re-read what you said in your first comments, you're not exactly clear what you mean I still see that you said "Paonians and Pannonias are the same people". While some Roman historians use both terms interchangeable (IMO wrongly), Hellenic historians clearly talk about different people and definitely a different teritorry.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Then still waiting for you to mention the hellenic sources calling Pannonians(named from Romans) other group and different geographical area.
damjan193@reddit
Because there are none, since Pannonia first appears in history records 2 centuries after the last mention of Paeonia, which got incorporated into Macedonia somewhere in the 2nd century BC. Simply said, Pannonia wasn't a thing in their time.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
That is what Im saying,ancient Romans started referring those north Pannonians/Paenonians and extended the region is simple as that ,it happened with any tribe ,a huge region got the name of a single small tribe ,geography and history from the past are different than modern one ,by being the same I meant both most likely Illyrian background
damjan193@reddit
Ah Ok, it's possible that was the case, but today we know that the Greek and the Roman were talking about different territories. If the Romans really named that teritorry as such because of the Paeonian tribe the Greek historians spoke of centuries before them then they were wrong to do so because it's clearly
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Modern linguists are uncertain as to the classification of Paeonian, due to the extreme scarcity of surviving materials in the language, with numerous hypotheses having been suggested about their language and their origins: Illyrian,[10][11] Brygian/Phrygian,[12] Thracian,[13] or of mixed origins.[14] According to Radoslav Katičić, the prevailing opinion is that they were of "Illyrian" origin, in the sense that they belonged to same linguistic grouping as the people of the north-western Balkans
This is what they say according to the wikipedia page ,they were most likely Illyrians but Illyrian was a broad term and as I said before identity back then was completely different to put in other words they were both most likely paleo balkanik populations
damjan193@reddit
Yes, can't argue with that.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
If you read the wikipedia page you will realise that the region of Pannonia got the name from the Paenonians and Appian was not wrong unless you find another source during Appian time saying otherwise,who is the mentally impaired ,you or me?😂😂
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
You can look it up cuz I already did
damjan193@reddit
I doubt it. You are clearly mentally impaired, I'm sorry.
Separate-Date-6518@reddit
I don't know why but i can't read your last message while seeing the notification, I'll dm you :p
Separate-Date-6518@reddit
Shok, the Paeonians and the Pannonians, while being close as a people, lived in different geographic areas. The Pannonians lived far north as you said and the Paeonians lived between the Dardanians, the Illyrians, the Thracians and the Macedonians. The Dalmatae and the Taulanti, while being both Illyrians, they lived also in different areas. Same people, different areas. Maybe you are confused because the names Pannonia and Paeonia are kinda identical, but there was a kinda big geographic distance between them.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
😂😂you are the one confused and I explained you the difference between Romans naming a province and the tribes of that Province ,you do not wanna learn and are making a silly claim by saying Paenonians ans Pannonians are different,you are just wrong!
caesarj12@reddit
He starts by calling them Illyrians, a name long forgotten so here is the first red flag. Secondly he confuses the campaigns of Murad and Mehmed. The campaigns of Murad largely failed while Mehmed had some strategic successes although none of them managed to take Kruje.
Secondly he writes of those events long after they have happened and he shows events from an Ottoman court standpoint. Its like taking the accounts of Marin Barleti at face value and his exaggerations from an Albanian perspective.
The matter of fact is that the events were more balanced. At the end Gjergj Kastrioti Scanderbeg, or Alexander as he calls him preserved his lands and his capital. He won most battles but he chose when to engage, never engaging the full ottoman armies head on. The ottomans won Svetigrad and Berat. Both heavy loses to Albanians.
HumanMan00@reddit
Theres a place in Albania called Holy City??
Ujemegaz@reddit
Sfetigrad?
HumanMan00@reddit
Mhm litterally means Holy City.
Lothronion@reddit
Roman Greek historians or writers in general describing contemporary peoples with classical names is not really a measure of their reliability, given how it was a simple convention of them. It is just a case of Greeks being unable to be confined in their own century, and having to constantly make allusions and references to the past, as if they have misplaced in their mind the nomenclature of their present time, as if they were not aware on which century they live. I would even say that calling Albanians as "Illyrians" is rather standard, as others like Laonikos Chalkokondyles would sometimes call them "Macedonians", which is rather unusual, but even that does make a bit of sense, considering that Epirus Nova was part of the Macedonian Prefecture. The only real far cry in that direction in the above excerpts is referring to Hungarians as “Paeonians”, despite how the latter lived South of the Triballians, and the former lived North of the Serbians (whom the Greeks of the time called “Triballians”, like Nikephoros Gregoras).
Ujemegaz@reddit
During the ceremony of revealing the new Archbishop of Autochefalous church of Albania, the Patriarch of Istanbul referred to Albania as Illyricum in his speech.
Yet, Skanderbeg himself thought we were the descedants of ancient Epirotes.
Bitter-Tadpole6047@reddit (OP)
Kritoboulos is estimated to have died in 1470 and the last events he described took place in 1467.
Jazzlike-Moose3123@reddit
He is ok. Probably a bit biased because he wrote under ottoman rule but to really find out things about ottoman history. You need to be able to read source material on your own from a lot of different sources. It is no easy feat even for seasoned historians. Most sources are also biased. You need to be able to tell who is who what is what.
Did a quick check on a Turkish source it says he was loyal to Fatih Sultan Mehmed and been around him a lot. Fatih understood and read greek. He had great knowledge of the ancient world as well. I doubt Kritoboulos was a 100% unbiased.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Frankly, the narrative seems accurate. Skanderbeg could not control the lowlands, and the League of Lezha lost its function because many feudals were fed up with constant wars which empoverished their domains. During campaigns of Sultan himself, Albanians would lock in their castles, and until winter, they would have to resist. At the mean time, they would not be able to hafvest any crops, or produce anything. I guess, that is why Skanderbeg had no choice but join Kingdom of Naples.
Plus, it is the first time i read about the scorched land policy from a sourced sympathetic to Ottomans.