Do advanced driver-assistance systems (lane keep, adaptive cruise) actually reduce accidents, or do they create driver complacency?
Posted by EvelynClede@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 197 comments
SafeModeOff@reddit
Adaptive cruise makes me complacent, but so far lane keep just makes me annoyed
BoondockUSA@reddit
The answer to your question is both. It reduces accidents overall but it makes many drivers have less skills.
As a good example, automatic headlights. You be shocked by how many drivers physically do not know how to manually turn on their headlights.
n0exit@reddit
You'd be shocked how many drivers don't know that you can just leave it on auto all the time and never turn them off.
Patient-Ad-7939@reddit
If I switch my car out of auto to manually turn them on, it beeps incessantly when I get out of the car and honks when it locks. My old car you could leave the lights in the on position if you wanted and the lights would still turn off with the car after it locked. But then be on when you unlocked it again. I miss that.
Cynyr36@reddit
My Odyssey doesn't turn the lights on when the wipers are activated when set to auto. Here in MN it's a legal requirement to have your lights on if you have your wipers on.
TheLastGenXer@reddit
ive never heard of a single car that does.
i constantly see wipers and no lights on cars.
just go back to the way cars used to be. dark dashboard = no lights on.
GundamArashi@reddit
Fords turn the lights on with wipers when set to auto.
TheLastGenXer@reddit
maybe certain models, but not one ford ive ever driven does
GundamArashi@reddit
Every ford my family has had with auto headlights has done it. And every ford I’ve had in my bay in the shop. It’s actually a problem if they don’t turn on with the wipers.
TheLastGenXer@reddit
ive driven extensively 08-14 e series 09 fusion 13 explorer 15 and 20 transit 18 edge
and 25 e series
all have auto headlights, not a single one turns on the lights in the daytime with the wipers on.
so please tell me which fords do this??
i know my dad was always guilty of THINKING his lights were on with the fusion cuz he would have it set to auto, but they never were unless it was dark.
except the 25 eseries, which does not count as it always turns on its lights when in D.
GundamArashi@reddit
All should. I am a ford tech and deal with these cars every day.
TheLastGenXer@reddit
clearly not. many of the cars ive listed were had since brand new.
i really think people are like my dad and “think” their lights are on.
i drive a bus all day, im seeing cars all day every day it rains with no lights on, and most drivers leave their lights on auto all the time.
so clearly something is wrong, as this was not the case when i started driving 30 years ago.
GundamArashi@reddit
The Fords I’ve had have always come on with wipers when set to auto. I’m not talking about drl, I’m talking about the dash dimming slightly and the indicator showing headlights are on. In the ford PTS system there is an entire process for figuring out why lights don’t come on with wipers. Most of the time it’s in programming.
TheLastGenXer@reddit
we are clearly living in two different worlds. maybe just different countries??
because yeah the 08 fusion, all the e series, the transits, the edge and the 13 explorer do not do this. our work just got a transit connect, and ill eventually see if that is any different.
sometime after 2008 they added a little green light to indicate the lights are on as they decided to have the dash lights on 24/7 for no reason prior to that.
but seeing your own headlights reflect off of something is the best way to tell in modern cars.
ps most of the fords ive driven do not have drls.
(i grew up driving older ones without autoheadlights but they wont count here either)
GundamArashi@reddit
It must be a regional thing because my 2011 Fusion, 2021 Ecosport both came on with wipers.
Cynyr36@reddit
Just make them always run head lights if not in park.
TheLastGenXer@reddit
that would be a better way to do autoheadlights light sensing is so dumb.
but you do need options for xmas light parks, sexurity gate approches, and drive in movies
Cynyr36@reddit
I mean i guess I'm fine with there still being a manual off and on in addition to auto, but the drive in movie would have your car in park and the auto lights would be off (maybe after a short delay).
Somewhere here i complained my car didn't turn them on when i turned the wipers on when set to auto. Like wtf is the point then. It also doesn't automatically enable even the drls unless its dark enough out. I haven't checked if there are rear drls or not.
TheLastGenXer@reddit
ive never heard of rear drl, but it absolutely should be a thing.
i just find it disgustingly dumb that they do dashboards that glow the same with the lights on/off in cars..
for a while they didnt even include the extra tiny light that indicates your lights are on.
Cynyr36@reddit
You know how the rear brakes glow a bit with head lights are on? That should happen with drls too.
TheLastGenXer@reddit
those are called tail lights.
jonnyt88@reddit
I wish mine was this way. I manually turn mine off else I light up my neighbors house when I remote start it in the AM.
Legitimate-Lab9077@reddit
My Subaru automatically turns the headlights on when the wipers are on for 60 seconds
23Explorer@reddit
(at least in EU) most modern cars do actually turn on the lights when wipers are on. On a similar note, some also have a setting to have rear lights on with DRLs (normally DRL mode only turns on front LEDs).
Informal_Ad4399@reddit
2010 Ram 1500. Mine are set to do that. I can't remember if it's a feature in the dash settings or one I turned in rooting around in the ecu settings. They do it though.
Satins_Cock@reddit
My Lincoln Town Car had the lights connected to the wipers. Stupidly, this was accomplished with a computer on the back of the wiper motor, so when I replaced it with a cheap version it broke the function.
It also had a secondary blinker chime that only ever activated once on a very long on ramp. I thought something was wrong but it was just a blinker on warning (in addition to the typical clicking).
wbqqq@reddit
In France it’s also a requirement - my 2016 e-class has it as a configurable setting to auto turn on, and have had Renaults, VW, BMW with the auto lights with wipers.
Chomblop@reddit
They’ve fixed that - on my 2024 Mazda you can’t turn them off. There’s an ‘off’ position but it’s on a spring so unless you hold it there it just pops back up to auto
Jakomako@reddit
Unfortunate for drive-in movie enjoyers.
Chomblop@reddit
People leave their engines running for the duration of the movie??
Jakomako@reddit
You’ve gotta run the stereo
Chomblop@reddit
. . . that doesn’t require the engine to be running
Jakomako@reddit
It does if you don’t want to Rick draining your battery.
Chomblop@reddit
Are you speaking from experience? A couple of hours of your car radio shouldn’t kill your battery and that seems preferable to having your family breathe everyone’s exhaust for two hours.
Jakomako@reddit
A lot of cars don’t have a mode where the stereo is the only thing running. You have to have a bunch of other stuff powered if you want the radio to stay on indefinitely.
Chomblop@reddit
So I take it you are not speaking from experience but are just guessing that people run their car engines during drive in movies
Jakomako@reddit
I’ve been to one drive in movie about 15 years ago. It was in a Chevy Cruze. Had to be on ACC to turn the radio on, then I could turn it off and the radio would work for about 15 minutes or until a door was opened. Decided to turn the engine on because I’m not gonna sit on ACC for over an hour. That will definitely risk being unable to start.
Started making out with my date, then a few minutes later, the staff is banging on my windows to tell me to turn my running lights off. Startled the hell out of us and ruined the mood. So I’m experienced enough, I guess.
Cynyr36@reddit
Good, it should be that way. But auto should be even simpler. If car not in park, lights on. That's it.
n0exit@reddit
I don't think mine turn off on my 24 ioniq 5 either.
H0SS_AGAINST@reddit
The number of late model vehicles driving around in inclement weather/dusk/dawn with their lights off is insane.
n0exit@reddit
Even on older cars without an auto mode, most that I've driven you can just leave them on all the time, and they'll either shut off when you turn the car off, open the door, lock it, or a minute or two after you leave. I think the only car I've owned in 30 years that didn't was my 87 Mercury Topaz and my 72 F-250. Everything else from 74 VW to 08 Prius did.
H0SS_AGAINST@reddit
True
What I don't understand is new cars these days will warn you that you left a grocery bag in the back seat thinking it's a child or something but it won't warn you when your lights are off and the sensor detects dim lighting. 🤦♂️
BoondockUSA@reddit
Except that auto is unreliable in rain/fog/snow/blizzard during the day. There’s often enough ambient light that it doesn’t trigger the light sensor to turn on the headlights. People get used to the auto setting so they stop thinking about when to manually turn on the headlights. That’s why so many cars don’t have their headlights on in poor visibility.
Then when law enforcement makes a rare traffic stop for a car not having their headlights on during poor visibility, the drivers have to fumble their way into figuring out the headlight switch.
I never use my auto setting because it’s just second nature to turn on and off the headlights as needed. I also don’t want to be the jerk that has headlights shine into my neighbor’s house when I remote start my vehicles in the winter.
sureal42@reddit
I live in Arizona, where drivers Ed is not mandatory. I have been told "I don't turn my headlights on if I don't need them, I can see so I don't need them on".
Not knowing how to turn them on or off is not the issue, not understanding or caring why you need them is the issue.
Chomblop@reddit
In Canada you have to have them all at all times, which solves that problem neatly.
sureal42@reddit
See, you say that...
In Arizona it literally does not matter, there are places that daytime lights are mandatory, and they still don't use them
RemoteVersion838@reddit
An example of why it needs to be federal. All cars made for the Canadian market since 1990 have DRLs from the factory. You need to remove the choice from the driver.
BoondockUSA@reddit
I worked in traffic safety. It’s drivers not knowing about the limitations with auto headlights. Then as I said, too many drivers have to fumble their way in figuring out how to turn on headlights when told to do so.
Due_Attention_4886@reddit
I think most cars with Automatic headlights also turn them on whenever wipers are running but I’m not sure how different brands/models handle this.
JCDU@reddit
The big problem is that many use DRL's on the front only (EU law I believe), which means that you have lights on the front, the dash is illuminated, so the visual cues to the driver are saying the lights are on but in low visibility you have NO lights on the back for the person behind you to see.
In rain/fog where the ambient light is "bright enough" that the main lights aren't triggered, the cars behind you can't see you unless you manually switch the lights on, let alone working out to turn the rear fog lights on.
jonnyt88@reddit
I had this issue with the DRL on my new-to-me subaru. I kept driving off at night with just my DRLs on because the dash was lit up like "lights on". I eventually disabled the DRL and just turn my lights on when I get in the car.
RemoteVersion838@reddit
This is why the law is changing in Canada at least. Cars either have to have fully automatic lights or when the DRL's are on, the dash isn't lit so it forces people to turn their lights on at night. I see plenty of people driving with no lights on at dusk and in bad weather.
RemoteVersion838@reddit
This is why the law is changing in Canada at least. Cars either have to have fully automatic lights or when the DRL's are on, the dash isn't lit so it forces people to turn their lights on at night. I see plenty of people driving with no lights on at dusk and in bad weather.
BoondockUSA@reddit
The cars that I’ve owned with auto headlights don’t do that. It’s just DRL’s.
twelfthfantasy@reddit
Maybe new ones, but automatic lights have been around for ages and definitely most cars on the road in the US that have auto headlights do not do this.
Notyit@reddit
Most cars now have ddl
BoondockUSA@reddit
DDL? Do you mean DRL?
bimmerlovere39@reddit
Wait - I’m very accustomed to how BMW does it: do other automakers not turn on auto lights when the wipers are on???
BoondockUSA@reddit
No.
goranlepuz@reddit
I am shocked by both. You're both correct.
Kickstart68@reddit
On my partners car, auto headlights on also triggers it into auto dip / main beam, which it is pretty poor at and which messes up how the manual dip / main beam switch works.
twelfthfantasy@reddit
My mom's new Rav4 has auto dipping headlights and I hate it.
Kickstart68@reddit
I hate it also. Fortunately on this car switching the headlights on manually disabled the auto dip
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
Can, but shouldn't.
Patient-Ad-7939@reddit
There is somebody I’ve seen the last couple weeks driving without their lights on and it’s killing me. I can’t speed because my insurance tracks me, so I can’t get in front of them, but they only have their DRLs and I want to call the cops on them so bad but I see them right before switching jurisdictions and it’s annoying me. It’s even a dark car, so the only indications they’re on the road if you’re behind them is the two tiny reflectors on the bumper.
three_s-works@reddit
Kind of a bad example....
Knowledge and skills are two different things.
BoondockUSA@reddit
It’s an applicable example. Auto headlights have made the habit of turning on headlights when they’re needed a thing of the past. It’s also made it so the below average drivers don’t know how to turn on their headlights when told to do so. Instead of using auto headlights as a feature, they have begun relying on it.
It’s similar to backup sensors and cameras. The art of using mirrors and knowing the vehicle to judge distances to objects has declined because people can just look at the camera and wait for the beeping to know when they’re close. Instead of using it as a tool, they are relying on it.
Cynyr36@reddit
Auto headlights should just mean if the car isn't in park the headlights are on.
three_s-works@reddit
It literally does
Cynyr36@reddit
Mine are brightness sensitive. If it's bright enough they stay off.
three_s-works@reddit
It's not a skill. Are you suggesting everyone has lost the skill to flip a switch?
Lane departure...that's a skill
BoondockUSA@reddit
They’ve lost the skill to build and maintain the habit of flipping on their headlight switch.
three_s-works@reddit
Yeah but...you don't need to.
You do need to still know how to move a car safely though
BoondockUSA@reddit
Yes, you do need to know how and when to manually turn on headlights. Driving in snow and fog without your headlights on isn’t safe. DRL’s don’t count as they don’t turn on your taillights.
Informal_Ad4399@reddit
Backup cameras.
They don't provide a full view. People rely on just them and not checking their mirrors and/or just turning around in your seat. You end up with people who don't know how to back up properly.
AtiumMist@reddit
So many clowns out here driving with their high beams on in the middle of a very very lit busy street in the city
TheLastGenXer@reddit
i loathe auto headlights.
in the 80s and 90s, rarely would someone not have their lights on, though i started seeing auto headlights in the mid90s
once they started having a bright dashboard all the time with lights on or off (2010ish) it was game over.
car with no headlights are now seen every few minutes and a car with their highbeams on 24/7 just as frequently.
_no_usernames_avail@reddit
This is why when you flash them, their high beams don’t turn off.
zoiks213@reddit
Motor vehicle fatalities in the United States have increased over the last decade.
Sideburn_Cookie_Man@reddit
That's not a result of the safety systems though.
Correlation, not causation.
ThirdSunRising@reddit
We can't say it's a result, but we also can't say it isn't.
Correlation does not *disprove* causation...
Sideburn_Cookie_Man@reddit
Nah, we know what it's a result of.
Increased weight, size, lowered visibility, and increased bonnet lines of modern vehicles.
Green_Juggernaut_410@reddit
You sure it's not cell phones? Because im pretty sure it's definitely mostly because of cell phones
YourDaddyBigBee@reddit
Like you said cell phones are obviously a contributor but a similar rise in vehicle deaths has not been seen in peer countries who also have cell phones.
Green_Juggernaut_410@reddit
Yes but we also have different driving cultures and road networks. Canada for example also has big beefy vehicles but their fatality rate has decreased in the last 10 years. Drivers in the u.s. are noticeably more erratic, dangerous, and speed more if you've driven in the both countries.
ThirdSunRising@reddit
Also lane assist and so on are required on all new cars in the US but not in Canada.
Correlation does not imply causation but… ya know… things that remove responsibility from the driver can be a double edged sword
7eregrine@reddit
"Distracted driving". Look up what the #1 cause of crashes was in the 70s. Distracted driving.
Messing with the radio was a big one. Everyone wants to rail against screens in cars today... "Buttons! We want buttons!"
Buttons can distract too.
Green_Juggernaut_410@reddit
Are you trying to argue that cell phones haven't caused an increase in crashes vs radios alone?? Talk about arguing just to argue. Ive literally watched people look down 5 seconds, up 1, down 5 up 1, repeat while beside them on the highway. Nobody was spending 20 minutes straight messing with their radio lol
7eregrine@reddit
Absolutely not. I'm just referring to exactly what I wrote.
It's always the cause: distracted driving.
It's distracted driving now, with phones. People love to rant and complain that car companies don't care about safety because they're taking buttons away.
Screen or no screen, the #1 cause of crashes is and was always distracted driving.
goranlepuz@reddit
I to believe you. If you have a source, can you share a link to it, please?
Sideburn_Cookie_Man@reddit
For example:
Australia’s roads are full of giant cars, and everyone pays the price. What can be done? : Find an Expert : The University of Melbourne
Summary: "A 500kg increase in vehicle weight is linked to a 70% higher fatality risk for occupants of the lighter car."
And
Big cars might make you feel safer. But here's how vehicle size impacts others in a crash
Summary: "Pedestrians are more likely to suffer fatal injuries in a collision with a large vehicle than a passenger car.
The design of these vehicles, particularly their higher front-ends, significantly elevates the risk. A mere 10 centimetre increase in front-end height can elevate the risk of pedestrian death by 22%, with impacts more likely occurring at critical injury points like the chest or head."
ferraricare@reddit
Let's not forget how powerful cars have gotten.
goranlepuz@reddit
Thanks!
JCDU@reddit
See also:
https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/140dgn8/many_popular_trucks_have_a_bigger_dead_spot_in/
Many popular trucks have a bigger dead spot in visibility than an M1 Abrams tank
Sideburn_Cookie_Man@reddit
No problem!
There's a sea of data on this, it all seems to point in roughly the same direction in terms of conclusions.
OperationAsshat@reddit
That's the issue though. It's a sea of data and anyone can manipulate it to get the results they want. Saying it is certain one way or another ignores statistical bias at every level.
HighGroundIsOP@reddit
Increased pedestrian deaths is a big culprit. This is people on their phones
Also automotive fatalities have fallen substantially the last couple of years, so it’s trending the right direction - except for pedestrians.
TJayClark@reddit
You know what’s also increased over the last decade?
Cell phone usage
Keagan12321@reddit
Alcohol consumption went way up during covid 30% of remote workers reported drinking on the job while at home.
goranlepuz@reddit
Huh. I looked it up, it's not only the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year#/media/File%3A1994-_Motor_vehicle_traffic_deaths_in_road_accidents%2C_by_country.svg
bushinkaishodan@reddit
I think they should be common on all cars, no matter the price. Like safety glass and seatbelts
Evil__Crouton@reddit
I bought a 2026 Subaru last December to replace my old winter car. Horrible mistake. I thought I'd be able to turn that crap off easily. Unfortunately it re-enables itself every time you start the car and requires extensive menu navigation to even temporarily disable. Twice now it's slammed on the brakes in traffic for no reason nearly causing accidents and the lane keep assist beeps and distracts me all the way to work downtown because it doesn't understand things like street parking or pedestrians. I will never buy a car with either feature again.
My last accident was in 1992. These "safety" features have caused me more close calls in three months than I've had in 30 years.
BadAtReplies@reddit
Driver assists do not make better drivers. They just allow bad drivers to operate with feigned competency.
phatelectribe@reddit
Tesla drivers are the archetype for this; the number of people I know who proclaim they “are not car people” but own a Tesla is staggering, but I’ve realized what it generally means is “I’m a shitty driver”.
Brokettman@reddit
I'm not a car person, i hate driving. My tesla has saved me many times over from really bad drivers (VW and BMW owners). The amount of times my tesla has swerved me out of the way of an idiot in a VW looking backwards while merging across 3 lanes from the on ramp is staggering.
Nobber123@reddit
I've had more than one person tell me they bought it for the self driving feature, and how they can be hands off. It is a car that appeals to people that don't want to drive. Crazy to me imo
Brokettman@reddit
Older tesla this is more the case. Newer ones monitor you from the in cabin camera to detect that youre watching the road and have hands on the wheel.
RepairBudget@reddit
I drive my Miata when I want to drive, and my Tesla when I don't.
Rare-Bet-870@reddit
Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems like you don’t think that the two are connected? I get the sense you’re saying they’re wrong about not being car people and getting a Tesla when i thought that accurate?
phatelectribe@reddit
The opposite. I’m saying Tesla’s are to bad drivers what like a light source is to a moth. It’s the type of people who don’t care for cars and that’s plays in to the fact they’re terrible drivers.
Also, giving someone a heavy car that does 0-60 in 3 seconds and has a giant screen to dumb down the driving experience really isn’t a great idea.
FunnyComfortable8341@reddit
You don’t have to care for cars to be a good driver.
cshmn@reddit
The opposite is true as well. Tons of car guys out there that can't drive for shit
zespak@reddit
Yep. Car guy myself, but there's a very good reason men, who generally think themselves much better drivers than the average woman, cause much more serious accidents.
As usual, people who THINK they are proficient are much more dangerous than people who'd happily say they're not interested.
Rare-Bet-870@reddit
Ahhh I thought it was the opposite
abrandis@reddit
True, but pretty sure emergency braking and other collision 💥 avoidance has already saved a lot of folks ..
7eregrine@reddit
Blind spot monitors have absolutely saved 1,000s of accidents from happening, if not millions worldwide.
RemoteVersion838@reddit
This is the best description that I have heard so far and I couldn't agree more. Drivers are complacent enough already and this just makes it worse. We are on the way to incompetence out pacing driver safety systems.
Fun-Habit-683@reddit
"hammers do not make people better at driving nails. They just allow squishy hands to operate with feigned competency"
That's the point of any tool lol
"Calculators do not make people better at math. They just allow stupid people to do math with feigned confident"
LifeForm8449@reddit
They reduce accidents, period. You’re bitter because you cant afford a newer car and neither can I.
BadAtReplies@reddit
Poor for life, ha ha. But it’s true, driver aids eliminate the need to learn throttle manipulation, threshold braking, counter steering, and paying attention to your surroundings such as shoulder checking.
Satins_Cock@reddit
Any data for this? I'm sure automatic braking saves crashes, but a not of safety features only kind of work. Like lane keep assist, if you can't keep it between the lines. How much attention to everything else are you paying? Or is it more that these people won't pay attention either way, so the lane keep feature at least corals them some of the time.
EvelynClede@reddit (OP)
well said
EdelWhite@reddit
They only actually help when you don't actively rely on them, but rather only use them as what it is : a driving aid.
dlsAW91@reddit
The only assist I’ve ever liked was adaptive cruise control and I dearly miss it
ProofReflection5431@reddit
Almost made me eat dirt too many times i turned it off.
Hopeful-Lab-238@reddit
Complacency
HousingSmart4426@reddit
Blind spot detection is very useful. Cars these days have a lot of blind spots.
Legitimate-Lab9077@reddit
24 year fatal/serious injury crash investigator here: They massively reduce crash rates, and when they can’t prevent the crash entirely, they dramatically reduce the severity of the crash end corresponding injuries
iltani@reddit
BMW claimed to have data that said blind spot monitors DID make people worse drivers and refused to make it standard or even an option at all for the majority of their lineup until around 2020ish. They caved due to competition with Mercedes.
9BALL22@reddit
Both
HighGroundIsOP@reddit
I’m in a Mercedes and the blind spot alert when I turn my directional on is fantastic. As is the automatic pre-safe brake, which saved my ass when a car stopped suddenly on the highway in front of me (possible insurance scam?). Generally the lane keeping assist and the self driving features remain off, but I don’t commute in heavy traffic regularly.
Overall I think safety tech does a lot to remove minor fender benders, especially when people are driving tired.
Toowoombaloompa@reddit
We don't have data on accidents that didn't happen.
For example we don't know how many times automated braking prevented a collision or how many times blind spot monitoring prevented a car merging into another.
But humans are good at taking a good thing and turning it bad, as thus some drivers become too reliant on these systems and cause a new kind of crash: https://theconversation.com/automated-vehicles-may-encourage-a-new-breed-of-distracted-drivers-101178
If you're in the USA then there's more bad news. The fashion for large cars is negatively affecting safety: https://theconversation.com/ever-larger-cars-and-trucks-are-causing-a-safety-crisis-on-us-streets-heres-how-communities-can-fight-back-206382
ITguy6158065@reddit
Complain about large vehicles but still won't change laws to allow me to buy a Hilux champ instead.
Toowoombaloompa@reddit
From what I understand it's not just the size of the vehicle but the upward trend in the size of the bonnet/hood. The Champ is cool but still suffers from a tall flat front.
In Australia we used to have capable car based pickups like the Holden One Tonne: https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-reviews/used-car-review-holden-one-tonner-2003-2004-13251
But we've suffered the same shift in fashions with mid-size pickups being popular, compounded by the fashion for bullbars.
One slight positive: Ford have reintroduced the F150 into Australia but it's proven really unreliable with heaps of big recalls. Our local Ford team have now developed the Ranger Super Duty to give higher capabilities in a slightly smaller package.
ITguy6158065@reddit
I swear I'm not losing my mind. 5-6 years ago I know I was reading articles saying that larger flat front ends were being implemented to save pedestrian lives because they wouldn't be thrown into the windshield.
Now, every article I see says they are more dangerous, which makes sense.
I know for a fact I was researching it because I wanted to know why cars were not more aerodynamic in the front end when the focus for most buyers was looks, feel and gas milage. Yet most front ends are not designed to minimize downforce.
Most of the people I know that drive trucks hate the newer looking trucks. Every year they cost more and get uglier.
Toowoombaloompa@reddit
A Toyota Tundra Platinum is listed at US$64k on Toyota's website. That's about AU$90k.
The same truck is listed on Toyota Australia from AU$186k. Roughly double.
How people spend their money is their business, and there's reasons why they're so expensive here. Would be interesting to hear whether your mates could tolerate that kind of spending.
Fun-Computer-1168@reddit
Lots of people are saying its making drivers less skilled, but thecnology is advancing and more and more people are driving newer cars, so why wouldn't we make driving easier for everyone and reduce the skill needed for it, especially since its pretty much a mandatory skill in todays society
In the future most people will be driving cars that have all those features and probably even more advanced ones, and the only people driving older csrs will be enthusiasts, which already have the skill neccessary so I really don't see the issue
NuclearHateLizard@reddit
They probably reduce accidents, but that's because the average driver is incompetent anyway
DrunkenGolfer@reddit
Adaptive cruise is wonderful. Lane keep is annoying if you drive in a northern climate. I'm not drifting in my lane, I am driving on whatever pavement remains.
WaffleDonkey23@reddit
You can't stop drunks, old people, and F150 drivers from getting behind the wheel. So there is probably a small number of people still alive because one of these systems did its job. As the tech gets better it'll get cheaper and better and... Oh wait I live in America where capitalism drives innovation in reverse and the automatic emergency break is probably going to ask for your credit card so it can verify your subscription 0.3 seconds before impact.
Bleades@reddit
Bane of my fucking existence. They just make repairs take longer and become ungodly expensive for no good reason.
MaddieBre@reddit
I worry that people who learn to drive on these super modern cars will not have the sense that they’re actually operating a huge piece of dangerous machinery. My 2016 (newest car i’ve ever had) was recently totaled due to no fault of my own, and i’m now daily driving a 1995. The jump from 2016 to 1995 reminded me that i’m truly operating a vehicle. I’ve been trying to find something new now and I can see how these newer vehicles take away some of the sense of what you’re actually doing.
Simon-GT@reddit
IMO Both. They reduce the dangers of inattentive and incompetent drivers, but in doing so, make them dependent on the assistance after a period. From personal experience with multiple cars in my garage, old and new, I can tell you that once you've been driving a heavily automated car with loads of assistance, even something as simple as electric steering and throttle with variability, you do become conditioned to that help being normal. They really do make it safer, but remove a lot of the driving experience and necessary skills. The danger is when low skilled or inexperienced drivers, who've never been in an analogue car before and are used to modern cars, jump in and try to drive something that has no driving assistance. Many people these days would really struggle to safely drive a car with raw, analogue steering, throttle and braking.
AggressiveNothing120@reddit
My dad never ever once tore a bumper off any of his vehicles before the proximity beep function.
Three since....on the same vehicle.
Complacency in some people for sure.
smokeyranger86@reddit
Based on insurance claims data, yes. Less body repair claims are being filed as a result of ADAS implementation. This does not include automated driving systems or semi-autonomous systems, ie Tesla.
1234iamfer@reddit
The make drivers lazy and less alert. But at the same time more and more drivers just let the assistants drive the car and take a relaxed stance, so driver slower and less agressive.
So suspect a net plus for total safety.
LV_Devotee@reddit
Lane keep has almost caused me to wreck a few dozen times. Either when a lane ends or when I move slightly over to allow room for a semi or bus and it pushes me toward what I am trying to avoid.
Throttlechopper@reddit
After the first near-miss you should have turned it off. If your car doesn’t also have collision avoidance or emergency braking, you’re asking for trouble. My car had all these systems including LKA, it worked well although would slow aggressively going around turns so I’d turn it off at those moments.
LV_Devotee@reddit
The only cars I drive that have it are rentals, finding out how to deactivate it on a different car every week is not reasonable. As far as using the turn signal to avoid it there is tog time and my hands are not always positioned to hit it in time.
Throttlechopper@reddit
You don’t have 5-15 minutes to spare searching for a safety menu and disabling options for something that could potentially injure you or others?
LV_Devotee@reddit
No I don’t! I already spent the better Bart of an hour just setting up CarPlay so I can have GPS. My personal cars are model year 2001 and 2005. I haven’t learned how to navigate the bullshit they put in modern cars. Plus I am already angry I have to drive an automatic when I rent!
JCDU@reddit
The trouble is those systems (often by law) re-activate every time you start the car.
I've had hire cars with these features and they caused more hazards than they avoided - lane assist even tried to ram me into a cyclist one time.
Cynyr36@reddit
LKA (not lane departure warnings) like cruise is a positive activation in every car I've seen with it.
Lane departure, front collision, are on all the time. I don't think they can be turned off.
WearFamiliar1212@reddit
Yeah, it’s deactivated with the turn signal, but sometimes, you don’t have time to do that.
radicalgamingHD@reddit
I’d argue they both create distractions while driving and cover up common driving mistakes/weaknesses/bad habits.
FrostyVariation9798@reddit
I'm torn on that; complacent drivers are going to be complacent drivers.
I would rather that they all have self driving Teslas for both my own safety and to keep traffic moving smoothly.
stupidfock@reddit
The auto braking absolutely reduces accidents. Idk on lane keep assist and all that. But I’ve seen with my own eyes people getting saved by the auto collision detection/braking
flndouce@reddit
They might cut down on DUI’s.
SpacePirateWatney@reddit
My personal opinion…complacent (and bad) drivers will be complacent (and bad). Driver assistance systems can (and do?) reduce accidents. But I don’t think they will make non-complacent and good driver complacent or turn them into a bad driver.
ReasonableRevenue218@reddit
I have seen in person driver complacency with this stuff as a passenger. I was uncomfortable on the reliance of it.
The_Coalition@reddit
Assist systems reduce fatigue, which can be a big contributing factor. They don't prevent stupid, but they do help on longer trips.
MiningDave@reddit
And monotonous trips. Same road every day, same traffic every day people tend to get complacent. Computers / assist systems do not.
Goes back 35+ years when ABS 1st started coming on a lot of cars. No matter what stats you showed them they knew they could do better then the computers.
bimmerlovere39@reddit
I still have enthusiasts argue with me that ABS is a performance detriment…
Cynyr36@reddit
An abs system tuned for all conditions road driving on stock all season tires could be a performance detriment on a dry sunny track with track tires. Similarly on a dirt road /track with proper rally gravel tires.
Maybe that's what they mean? I know traction control tends to suck for winter driving with proper snow tires that want more like 30% slip for peak traction.
Peppy_Tomato@reddit
Insurance claims and regulator data suggests that cars with the tech crash less often. However, repair costs can be higher in cars with the tech.
Never mind the high profile cases that you read about in the news.
solenyaPDX@reddit
People were complacent, distracted, and unskilled anyway.
It absolutely helps.
Garth_DeWayne@reddit
I find them distracting and fatiguing in their own way. I have everything possible turned off on my truck. The only thing I can't 100% turn off is the emergency braking feature... And I've NEVER had it engage.
I'm already paying attention to the things these systems are monitoring. Having things flashing, alerting, giving extra feedback in to the steering is all distracting, and increases the mental workload. I'm already paying attention, is it alerting me to something I haven't seen, or is it just telling me about something I'm already aware of?
I weave around in my lane to avoid poor surfaces, I don't want the steering wheel fighting me.
But, poor drivers rely on them. When that blindspot warning isn't going off they will do a lane change not realizing they are cutting off a faster moving vehicle that the sensor hasn't picked up yet.
They tailgate, assuming the vehicle will automatically stop for them.
It creates over confident drivers in people with less skill and awareness.
geek66@reddit
Those things are not exclusive - it is both.
Analysis of Advanced Driver-Assistance Systems for Safe and Comfortable Driving of Motor Vehicles - PMC
FlusteredOwl@reddit
Both parts of your question can be true. I suspect that's the case. They both create driver complacency and reduce accidents.
CombativeCherry@reddit
The technology that I want is the one that is useless unless it is saving my life (or someone else's).
Like emergency breaking.
Lane assist should already water in the driver's face, open the windows and blare Yakety Sax.
TheWhogg@reddit
Yes they help. I found it surprisingly useful when driving in Europe.
Aegean8485@reddit
My insurance went down with a car having these safety systems. Maybe the insurance company has more data than us.
Darkone539@reddit
When they work the research is there to say they do.
The issue is when they don't work, like lane assistance in country lanes, they can be borderline dangerous. Which is why all cars should have an easy way to turn them off.
hemibearcuda@reddit
I think we are on the verge of witnessing an entire new generation of drivers who will be the worst in the history of automobiles.
Newer and younger drivers are becoming reliant on systems that will eventually fail.
Gunk_Olgidar@reddit
Both.
FindingUsernamesSuck@reddit
Both.
KetchupOnThaMeatHo@reddit
I feel like they confuse people. It's hard to make a quick decision in a situation if you're trying to decide if you should make the maneuver or is the car going to do it for you.
InfernalCombust@reddit
There is no doubt in my mind that adaptive cruise control (ACC) is a safety improvement. It keeps better distance than most drivers, and it reacts faster when the car in front slows down.
And my own, rather embarrassing, experience is that ACC also helps me control my tendency to road rage when someone cuts in front of me and steals my safety distance. Before ACC, I would get mad. Now I just let the car deal with it.
I can’t really see a case for ACC leading to complacency.
I am less certain about lane keep. I have had some situations where the car and I disagreed on where to point the wheels.
norf937@reddit
Tesla FSD is many steps ahead of that & it’s been proven to be significantly safer than manual driving.
Toowoombaloompa@reddit
Tesla's reliance on cameras is holding them back though. I can't fathom why they don't adopt lidar like their main competitors.
norf937@reddit
They don’t really have any consumer full FSD competitors yet other than driverless taxis.
Although I think their theory was if AI & cameras can match human vision, you don’t need lidar at all. It’s also cheaper and more scalable obviously, I’m sure profits played a role..
It seems to have worked out fine thus far though.
Toowoombaloompa@reddit
They're facing legal action here in Australia for selling cars with FSD hardware with the promise that it'd be enabled once regulatory approval was granted But when the software became available it wasn't compatible with the older hardware.
https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/tesla-facing-different-legal-actions-australia-full-self-driving-claims
Sideburn_Cookie_Man@reddit
Same reason old mate got rid of one of the most recognizable brands in the world and replaced it with a generic letter that we use as a placeholder in Algebra...
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
Proven by whom?
norf937@reddit
8.4 billion cumulative FSD miles worth of data.
https://www.jowua-life.com/blogs/jowua-blog/is-teslas-fsd-actually-safe
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
So according to Tesla.
LV_Devotee@reddit
I won’t trust it not to drive me to a concentration camp.
norf937@reddit
That’s gotta be the most Reddit shit I’ve heard this week
sioux612@reddit
There are aspects that save lives and don't really cause complacency, like the emergency break systems
But stuff like lane keeping will definitely create complancency and make drivers worse
Tantricationz@reddit
I just rented a 2025 jeep compass for a cross country drive. I turned off all that assist junk, including the auto headlights.
Brilliant-Onion2129@reddit
Yeah, now I can sleep on my way home!
dapterail@reddit
Forced systems - yes. Toggleable - well, they are a choice. Forced driver monitoring, lane keep, speed warning - they certainly make it less safe.
goranlepuz@reddit
It seems obvious it is both though,
n0exit@reddit
After a 3 hour drive with adaptive cruise control, I am far less tired that without.
pessimistoptimist@reddit
I believe they contribuge to driver complacency and sheer laziness. I k ow way too many people who engage cruise control when the road conditions say you shouldnt. They chamhe lanes without lookong relyimg totally of the little light and beep to let them know if someone is beside them amd the totally zone put while driving letting tje lane assist alert them when they start to drift.
cballowe@reddit
There is a bit of both. There's a big risk that drivers attribute too much ability to the features like lane keep and adaptive cruise. In cases where they're trusting the car and distracted, if the car reaches the limits of its capabilities, that can have bad outcomes.
The collection of technologies around collision avoidance (automatic braking and similar features) has dropped the number of insurance claims due to rear ending.
There's also some massive positives for people who use the tools properly - i.e.staying engaged and not reaching for the phone or whatever. The adaptive cruise and lane keep can significantly reduce the cognitive stress for long drives. Still have to maintain control, but not focusing on the micro adjustments all the time, more ability to pay attention to the larger environment - planning ahead for upcoming obstacles. (I notice that highway driving is less taxing).
I saw someone comment that fatalities have risen - this is likely unrelated to the driver assist features. The factors going toward that lean more toward vehicle size and weight. Significant increases in hood/grill height, for instance, is large factor in the increase in pedestrian deaths. (Compare a typical 2025 vehicle to a typical 2000 vehicle - especially trucks). This is a combination of lower visibility and increased chance that the front of the vehicle impacta a head.
Higher mass EVs, trucks, and large SUVs also carry significantly more momentum into collisions so, while they might be better at protecting their occupants, they also do more harm to the other vehicles on the road.
Sideburn_Cookie_Man@reddit
They absolutely reduce accidents.
Statistically the flesh sack behind the wheel is almost always the reason for a crash.