Traditionally, if there were too many mouths to feed after the very weak had died and people stopped having children, the elderly would 'go for a walk' somewhere they wouldn't be found for a while. Voluntarily, perhaps. But a tribe that lets young families die of hunger while the elderly stay fed and comfortable is going to die off.
I think no-questions-asked euthanasia is frankly overdue, but it's genuinely the most ethical way to drastically reduce the population.
And here goes my inbox. Let's see if I'm getting a vacation from Reddit or just spammed 'Reddit Cares'.
If we're in the midst of a food crisis trolley problem, and someone is dying, why are you protecting depressed people in the first world over someone in south Asia or Africa who actually wants to live?
If we can't save everyone, it's not 'too easy', whatever you meant by that, to take volunteers first before committing mass social murder based on location.
How about the disabled? Are you going to dispense with them? And the homeless? Addicts? People who need expensive medical care like cancer patients? There are so many categories you are missing.
And why would you not target those who use the most resources (i.e., the rich), instead of the elderly, most of whom use barely anything?
If only the elites had a way of making everybody almost infertile via extreme processed foods, toxic chemicals in hygiene products e.g shampoos deodorants,skin care , micro plastics in water, clothes made from recycled plastic. Rampant pornography addiction that makes men unmotivated to seek a partner as well as destroying relationships. Oh wait a minute …
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
We were talking about it, 30 years ago. Then the "there's plenty enough for everyone; it's a distribution problem" paradigm took hold and you barely heard a peep about overpopulation after that. Granted, distribution is certainly a problem but it's not the only problem. There's only enough to go around until there isn't. And the numbers will change dramatically if you're talking about ethical and sustainable living vs just getting by.
"there's plenty enough for everyone; it's a distribution problem"
What they leave unsaid though is that, yes there is enough to distribute to everyone, but that would require extreme rationing and sacrifice of cushy lifestyles to make it happen. Looking back at how people behaved during the pandemic I can confidently say that the pampered first world citizens, especially those who say that quote, are not ready to make those sacrifices.
They have this mindset that we live in a post-scarcity society like Star Trek and are picturing white picket fence upper middleclass homes with fully stocked fridges, entertainment, and creature comforts for everyone. No. We don't have enough resources to give everyone on Earth post WWII 1950's America lives of excess.
What they leave unsaid though is that, yes there is enough to distribute to everyone, but that would require extreme rationing and sacrifice of cushy lifestyles to make it happen.
Exactly, and people who espouse the "plenty enough for everyone" narrative are usually implying something like, "If the billionaires used less, the world would be perfect and everyone would have enough!"
No one is arguing against the billionaires reducing their consumption (except for the billionaires, of course), but if Musk established his Mars base and transported all of the billionaires there so they could live in their new utopia, nothing here would change one bit. Because, in a complete lack of surprise, it's been studied.
Sort by the final column (Number of Earths required), and look for values around 1.0, which would mean living within the constraints of what the Earth could replenish in a year. You find countries like Benin and Chad, Honduras and South Sudan. IOW, really, really poor countries. At 8+ billion people, if everyone shared equally in what the Earth can provide in a year, everyone would have to live like that.
And then ask yourself if the average American, or anyone who lives in the wealthy countries making up the global north, would reduce their lifestyle to that. They would happily condemn most of the world to grinding poverty before giving up a single thing.
It also ignores the most important thing that everyone on this sub is keenly aware of; our current levels of production are incredibly unsustainable, we are destroying and depleting every facet of this planets environment to create that unequally distributed plenty, and the debt is rapidly coming due.
Socialism or barbarism was a question for another time, and we are living with the answer.
I recognize superior dedication to the cause in your efforts, son. I see a bright future in your life, backlit by the warfare, blackouts, starvation, and pestilence throughout society.
Be sure to drink those electrolytes throughout your moments. They've got what plants crave.
Too late to talk about it now. Population growth has already stalled and will rapidly decline in time. Not soon enough to avoid the damage done by letting it blow up in the first place.
But the damage is done, we can’t humanly depopulate so we forge ahead the only way we know how, taking more and more from the poor to ensure that the lifestyle of the rich is unaffected.
See my other comment below. That linear absolute increment may start to come down but it's not really happening just yet. Look at the picture graphs from 1970 to now and it's very straight line.
Classic WorldinData loking at % growth (falling) instead of absolute growth static at +70/80m / year. Falling % growth is what you get with constant linear growth.
Yes, % growth peaked in 1970. it's been falling ever since. hat was the moment of demographic transition when medical, food, poverty effects on population stopped driving exponential growth. At some time in the (maybe near) future, linear growth will also slow. But it's not reall obvious yet, apart from short term (?) shocks like Covid.
Populationism misses the root cause of geo-ecological destruction -- which is the capitalist mode of production. But Western environmentalism and its analytical categories (a la Ehrlich) is not the only way to understand the apocalypse -- or respond to it.
There is, instead, the analysis from social ecology:
"The importance of viewing demography in social terms becomes even more apparent when we ask: would the grow-or-die economy called capitalism really cease to plunder the planet even if the world’s population were reduced to a tenth of its present numbers? Would lumber companies, mining concerns, oil cartels, and agribusiness render redwood and Douglas fir forests safer for grizzly bears if — given capitalism’s need to accumulate and produce for their own sake — California’s population were reduced to one million people?
"The answer to these questions is a categorical no. Vast bison herds were exerminated on the western plains long before the plains were settled by farmers or used extensively by ranchers — indeed, when the American population barely exceeded some sixty million people. These great herds were not crowded out by human settlements, least of all by excessive population. We have yet to answer what constitutes the 'carrying capacity' of the planet, just as we lack any certainty, given the present predatory economy, of what constitutes a strictly numerical balance between reduced human numbers and a given ecological area."
Murray Bookchin, "The Population Myth": https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/murray-bookchin-the-population-myth
Impact is an expression of population, affluence and technological efficiency.
The truth is almost no one is ever willing to say it must be all three. Equitable distribution comes from a declining population learning to live with less and actually use techological proficiency to reduce demand not offset demand.
Bau green growth advocates assumes that T will solve it. It clearly won't. Eco fascists often act as though P could solve it. And that's probably true if you were willing to commit a genocide of unimaginable ferocity and ruthless efficiency. And one eyes communists assume that redistribution and a realignment of what A looks like is sufficient. It's not.
One of the truly great ironies of environmentalism is that the same people who champion equality and egalitarianism. Are blind to the unfortunate reality that "a dollar only goes so far".
The USSR did insane damage to the biosphere under their industrialized economy, so I refuse to believe it’s strictly a ‘capitalism’ problem. Industrialization at scale cannot be sustained.
ss: Growth economies, wealth inequality, military hegemony, nationalism, and pro-natalist policies are all unwise behavioral patterns that lead to the collapse of the global ecosystem.
The persistence of these unwise behavioral patterns bypasses critical thinking.
Environmentally conscious family planning and economic degrowth are two examples of such new paradigms.
Until we can speak frankly about the problem of overpopulation, it will devolve into a debate.
We've been having this conversation for years. Nobody is listening.
I agree with you and the article btw. My husband and I have one child who is adopted. We did our part, but the other end of the spectrum is resources going to the upkeep of the elderly, taking resources away from the young.
It will even out, but before it does, it will be one shit show.
There is no such thing as "need" in geopolitics. We can always live with, or die from, the consequences.
And why "talk about population overshoot"? It is not like if we talk about it, we will solve the problem. Al Gore has been talking about climate change for decades. Greta has been talking about climate change for decades. What happened? We passed 1.5C and blew through 2C briefly. "Drill baby drill" won.
How does the person who can figure out a solution gain the knowledge of the problem without talking about it? Just because it hasn't happened in other instances doesn't make it impossible.
This thread addresses overpopulation, a fraught but important issue that attracts disruption and rule violations. In light of this we have lower tolerance for the following offenses:
Racism and other forms of essentialism targeted at particular identity groups people are born into.
Bad faith attacks insisting that to notice and name overpopulation of the human enterprise generally is inherently racist or fascist.
Instructing other users to harm themselves. We have reached consensus that a permaban for the first offense is an appropriate response to this, as mentioned in the sidebar.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/madrid987:
ss: Growth economies, wealth inequality, military hegemony, nationalism, and pro-natalist policies are all unwise behavioral patterns that lead to the collapse of the global ecosystem.
The persistence of these unwise behavioral patterns bypasses critical thinking.
Environmentally conscious family planning and economic degrowth are two examples of such new paradigms.
Until we can speak frankly about the problem of overpopulation, it will devolve into a debate.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1sfitsa/we_need_to_talk_about_population_overshoot/oexr9mw/
AtrociousMeandering@reddit
Traditionally, if there were too many mouths to feed after the very weak had died and people stopped having children, the elderly would 'go for a walk' somewhere they wouldn't be found for a while. Voluntarily, perhaps. But a tribe that lets young families die of hunger while the elderly stay fed and comfortable is going to die off.
I think no-questions-asked euthanasia is frankly overdue, but it's genuinely the most ethical way to drastically reduce the population.
And here goes my inbox. Let's see if I'm getting a vacation from Reddit or just spammed 'Reddit Cares'.
ttystikk@reddit
Too easy to let depressed people kill themselves. Letting them do so without giving them mental health care is doing no one a service.
AtrociousMeandering@reddit
If we're in the midst of a food crisis trolley problem, and someone is dying, why are you protecting depressed people in the first world over someone in south Asia or Africa who actually wants to live?
If we can't save everyone, it's not 'too easy', whatever you meant by that, to take volunteers first before committing mass social murder based on location.
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
How about the disabled? Are you going to dispense with them? And the homeless? Addicts? People who need expensive medical care like cancer patients? There are so many categories you are missing.
And why would you not target those who use the most resources (i.e., the rich), instead of the elderly, most of whom use barely anything?
AtrociousMeandering@reddit
Go talk to whoever said any of that, because I didn't. You're talking about killing people against their will, I'm not.
jaymickef@reddit
Maybe a better approach would be access to birth control. Everywhere in the world that has easy access to birth control has a declining population.
DickPostinAcc@reddit
If only the elites had a way of making everybody almost infertile via extreme processed foods, toxic chemicals in hygiene products e.g shampoos deodorants,skin care , micro plastics in water, clothes made from recycled plastic. Rampant pornography addiction that makes men unmotivated to seek a partner as well as destroying relationships. Oh wait a minute …
MrManniken@reddit
why not both?
miklayn@reddit
The rich first.
Own-Medium5232@reddit
U can disable those "reddit cares"
HousesRoadsAvenues@reddit
I hate to agree with you, yet I do.
I cross my fingers that your post/comment is not "flagged" by Reddit. So far, it's been up for four hours.
WombatusMighty@reddit
Then go ahead and do your part, instead of being a facist and calling for other people to kill themselves.
collapse-ModTeam@reddit
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
mfyxtplyx@reddit
We were talking about it, 30 years ago. Then the "there's plenty enough for everyone; it's a distribution problem" paradigm took hold and you barely heard a peep about overpopulation after that. Granted, distribution is certainly a problem but it's not the only problem. There's only enough to go around until there isn't. And the numbers will change dramatically if you're talking about ethical and sustainable living vs just getting by.
McCree114@reddit
What they leave unsaid though is that, yes there is enough to distribute to everyone, but that would require extreme rationing and sacrifice of cushy lifestyles to make it happen. Looking back at how people behaved during the pandemic I can confidently say that the pampered first world citizens, especially those who say that quote, are not ready to make those sacrifices.
They have this mindset that we live in a post-scarcity society like Star Trek and are picturing white picket fence upper middleclass homes with fully stocked fridges, entertainment, and creature comforts for everyone. No. We don't have enough resources to give everyone on Earth post WWII 1950's America lives of excess.
Wave_of_Anal_Fury@reddit
What they leave unsaid though is that, yes there is enough to distribute to everyone, but that would require extreme rationing and sacrifice of cushy lifestyles to make it happen.
Exactly, and people who espouse the "plenty enough for everyone" narrative are usually implying something like, "If the billionaires used less, the world would be perfect and everyone would have enough!"
No one is arguing against the billionaires reducing their consumption (except for the billionaires, of course), but if Musk established his Mars base and transported all of the billionaires there so they could live in their new utopia, nothing here would change one bit. Because, in a complete lack of surprise, it's been studied.
https://overshoot.footprintnetwork.org/how-many-earths-or-countries-do-we-need/
Sort by the final column (Number of Earths required), and look for values around 1.0, which would mean living within the constraints of what the Earth could replenish in a year. You find countries like Benin and Chad, Honduras and South Sudan. IOW, really, really poor countries. At 8+ billion people, if everyone shared equally in what the Earth can provide in a year, everyone would have to live like that.
And then ask yourself if the average American, or anyone who lives in the wealthy countries making up the global north, would reduce their lifestyle to that. They would happily condemn most of the world to grinding poverty before giving up a single thing.
Xae1yn@reddit
It also ignores the most important thing that everyone on this sub is keenly aware of; our current levels of production are incredibly unsustainable, we are destroying and depleting every facet of this planets environment to create that unequally distributed plenty, and the debt is rapidly coming due.
Socialism or barbarism was a question for another time, and we are living with the answer.
BellaRyder2505@reddit
The population needs to go down everywhere around the world.
tennezzee88@reddit
bahahahahaha
Mostest_Importantest@reddit
Guys, I got the perfect plan for this part of the issue of collapse.
We all steam ahead.
HousesRoadsAvenues@reddit
Well, I am one of the engines that can! s/
Mostest_Importantest@reddit
Good job, citizen.
I recognize superior dedication to the cause in your efforts, son. I see a bright future in your life, backlit by the warfare, blackouts, starvation, and pestilence throughout society.
Be sure to drink those electrolytes throughout your moments. They've got what plants crave.
😆
OrangeCrack@reddit
Too late to talk about it now. Population growth has already stalled and will rapidly decline in time. Not soon enough to avoid the damage done by letting it blow up in the first place.
But the damage is done, we can’t humanly depopulate so we forge ahead the only way we know how, taking more and more from the poor to ensure that the lifestyle of the rich is unaffected.
jbond23@reddit
Has it though? It's been +70-80m per year since 1970. With 12-14 years per +1b https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/#table-historical
OrangeCrack@reddit
Population growth has stalled, but the overall population will still increase for some time still due to people’s overall life expectancy .
jbond23@reddit
See my other comment below. That linear absolute increment may start to come down but it's not really happening just yet. Look at the picture graphs from 1970 to now and it's very straight line.
Ok_Main3273@reddit
Population growth stalled about 13 years ago:
source: https://ourworldindata.org/births-and-deaths
jbond23@reddit
Classic WorldinData loking at % growth (falling) instead of absolute growth static at +70/80m / year. Falling % growth is what you get with constant linear growth.
Yes, % growth peaked in 1970. it's been falling ever since. hat was the moment of demographic transition when medical, food, poverty effects on population stopped driving exponential growth. At some time in the (maybe near) future, linear growth will also slow. But it's not reall obvious yet, apart from short term (?) shocks like Covid.
genomixx-redux@reddit
Populationism misses the root cause of geo-ecological destruction -- which is the capitalist mode of production. But Western environmentalism and its analytical categories (a la Ehrlich) is not the only way to understand the apocalypse -- or respond to it.
There is, instead, the analysis from social ecology:
"The importance of viewing demography in social terms becomes even more apparent when we ask: would the grow-or-die economy called capitalism really cease to plunder the planet even if the world’s population were reduced to a tenth of its present numbers? Would lumber companies, mining concerns, oil cartels, and agribusiness render redwood and Douglas fir forests safer for grizzly bears if — given capitalism’s need to accumulate and produce for their own sake — California’s population were reduced to one million people?
"The answer to these questions is a categorical no. Vast bison herds were exerminated on the western plains long before the plains were settled by farmers or used extensively by ranchers — indeed, when the American population barely exceeded some sixty million people. These great herds were not crowded out by human settlements, least of all by excessive population. We have yet to answer what constitutes the 'carrying capacity' of the planet, just as we lack any certainty, given the present predatory economy, of what constitutes a strictly numerical balance between reduced human numbers and a given ecological area."
Murray Bookchin, "The Population Myth": https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/murray-bookchin-the-population-myth
Bandits101@reddit
Cherry picking to claim a point but anyway, how does exterminating bison herds prove in any way whatsoever, that human overpopulation is a myth.
HousesRoadsAvenues@reddit
I was thinking the same thing.
Proper_Geologist9026@reddit
I = PAT.
Impact is an expression of population, affluence and technological efficiency.
The truth is almost no one is ever willing to say it must be all three. Equitable distribution comes from a declining population learning to live with less and actually use techological proficiency to reduce demand not offset demand.
Bau green growth advocates assumes that T will solve it. It clearly won't. Eco fascists often act as though P could solve it. And that's probably true if you were willing to commit a genocide of unimaginable ferocity and ruthless efficiency. And one eyes communists assume that redistribution and a realignment of what A looks like is sufficient. It's not.
One of the truly great ironies of environmentalism is that the same people who champion equality and egalitarianism. Are blind to the unfortunate reality that "a dollar only goes so far".
thehourglasses@reddit
The USSR did insane damage to the biosphere under their industrialized economy, so I refuse to believe it’s strictly a ‘capitalism’ problem. Industrialization at scale cannot be sustained.
guyseeking@reddit
Fun fact: the USSR operated under a capitalist mode of production.
Lost_Birthday_3138@reddit
"It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism."
I always thought that was a pithy joke, not a prophecy.
madrid987@reddit (OP)
ss: Growth economies, wealth inequality, military hegemony, nationalism, and pro-natalist policies are all unwise behavioral patterns that lead to the collapse of the global ecosystem.
The persistence of these unwise behavioral patterns bypasses critical thinking.
Environmentally conscious family planning and economic degrowth are two examples of such new paradigms.
Until we can speak frankly about the problem of overpopulation, it will devolve into a debate.
HousesRoadsAvenues@reddit
We've been having this conversation for years. Nobody is listening.
I agree with you and the article btw. My husband and I have one child who is adopted. We did our part, but the other end of the spectrum is resources going to the upkeep of the elderly, taking resources away from the young.
It will even out, but before it does, it will be one shit show.
NyriasNeo@reddit
"We need to talk about population overshoot"
There is no such thing as "need" in geopolitics. We can always live with, or die from, the consequences.
And why "talk about population overshoot"? It is not like if we talk about it, we will solve the problem. Al Gore has been talking about climate change for decades. Greta has been talking about climate change for decades. What happened? We passed 1.5C and blew through 2C briefly. "Drill baby drill" won.
Talk is just pointless hot air.
ZombieDracula@reddit
How does the person who can figure out a solution gain the knowledge of the problem without talking about it? Just because it hasn't happened in other instances doesn't make it impossible.
Konradleijon@reddit
But people worry about declining birth reaches
OccuWorld@reddit
we noticed your ecofascist rhetoric in the midst of birth rate decline (that billionaire benefactors lament)...
StatementBot@reddit
This thread addresses overpopulation, a fraught but important issue that attracts disruption and rule violations. In light of this we have lower tolerance for the following offenses:
Racism and other forms of essentialism targeted at particular identity groups people are born into.
Bad faith attacks insisting that to notice and name overpopulation of the human enterprise generally is inherently racist or fascist.
Instructing other users to harm themselves. We have reached consensus that a permaban for the first offense is an appropriate response to this, as mentioned in the sidebar.
This is an abbreviated summary of the mod team's statement on overpopulation, view the full statement available in the wiki.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/madrid987:
ss: Growth economies, wealth inequality, military hegemony, nationalism, and pro-natalist policies are all unwise behavioral patterns that lead to the collapse of the global ecosystem.
The persistence of these unwise behavioral patterns bypasses critical thinking.
Environmentally conscious family planning and economic degrowth are two examples of such new paradigms.
Until we can speak frankly about the problem of overpopulation, it will devolve into a debate.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1sfitsa/we_need_to_talk_about_population_overshoot/oexr9mw/