Are any orgs actually seriously moving away from Nutanix/VMware due to the new price hikes?
Posted by nwcs_sh@reddit | sysadmin | View on Reddit | 59 comments
Asking because I've been working on my own hypervisor solution the past 4 years and am very quickly approaching needing some users.
non-descript_com@reddit
As a somewhat larger org (several hundred ESXi hosts and a several thousand VMs), we did an analysis and found it would cost about 5x our renewal cost to "mostly" get rid of VMware. This included software licensing (which is minimal), training support staff, updating internal knowledge items, updating other documentation, implementing backup solutions, time for app partners to test recovery plans, costs to move from VSAN ESA to block array, etc.
Then we still have certain areas that have high compliance requirements where we need strong attestation... and then a few software vendors that don't allow any other hypervisor other than VMware. I run Proxmox and k3s at home in my lab, but I wouldn't feel comfortable running my entire org on it.
NetframeAndy@reddit
My company and I have launched Netframe, a VMware alternative that's easy to deploy and migrate to, it's based on KVM but we have done a lot of work everywhere else to make it a breeze to deploy, use and scale (netframe.com.au). We're Australian but provide global 24x7 support, our standalone hypervisor image is free too to download and use forever. There's a lot more coming on the roadmap!
mk9e@reddit
Yes. Looking into migrating to proxmox. Our vendor mentioned that this was something multiple people have said. Because our team is small and we dont have a ton of experience in that environment we're hiring one of proxomox's certified partners for install and a few retainer hours. They also mentioned that they've never been so busy and are expanding because of it.
RIP VMware. Fuck Broadcom. The big thing isn't just the price but that they've been sending cease and desist letters to businesses demanding people stop using legacy versions even though I'm petty sure these versions were perpetual licenses. They've been shutting down services for customers running cloud and legacy. We have two airgapped legacy clusters like that on production lines and even if it's unlikely we really can't risk it. If that wasn't their model, we might have bit the bullet and renewed our main environment but fuck em. We absolutely can't afford to renew all three. Especially considering these other two environments at running like 5 vms each and how much they're going to charge for such a small build.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
Yea, so I'm hoping to fill in that niche market of small companies that are < 50 employees. Not really looking to deal with corporate sales, etc. Not looking to fleece or jack prices up either. Basically, looking for that serious org or group who wants a private cloud without the massive cost in doing so.
disclosure5@reddit
I don't want to rain on anyone having a go at something, but Proxmox is already free or available with business support, with the difference being it's heavily battle tested vs what you've produced.
What's your value add over that?
mk9e@reddit
Just talking from someone who's paying for it, or about to:
Official proxmox support is like 12 hours off base from our main site.
No emergency support. We might need that.
Availability and continuity of relationships when working with a smaller specialized company.
That said, prices on their partners are very competitive.
disclosure5@reddit
Do you think something OP wrote as a one man band will do emergency 24x7 support? If not.. my point still stands.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
I've been on-call all my life bro, why would it be any different?
disclosure5@reddit
If you're genuinely going to state you can offer a 24x7 SLA as a one man show - any manager is going to see through this and see the claim as a problem. You're much better off just doing what proxmox does and being up front.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
To be clear I never indicated any pricing or support model. You're just making a lot of assumptions. Ideally I'd lean in the direction of pay per agent and a support model is in addition to.
mk9e@reddit
O no. Wasn't trying to disagree, trying to explain why I'm pushing for my company to make the investment.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
Proxmox is built on KVM. I've also built my solution on KVM. Proxmox also doesn't support VPC networking (NAT), you'd have to implement this yourself. It also doesn't support cloud-init VM configuration.
JouanDeag@reddit
This is just false. Proxmox supports that.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
Proxmox does not support cloud-init unless you build custom base images based on NoCloud. They have no cloud-init datasource. Their solution requires jank hack to make it work. Do you do this in AWS? No.
Their VPC solution uses BGP and is entirely experimental. Not only that it's not standard in modern SDN networking which is VXLAN or GENEVE.
JouanDeag@reddit
Consider reading your own links.
Most OSes provide pre-built generic images that work perfectly with NoCloud.
Regarding SDN:
I'd suggest you take a moment to actually work with the product before saying it doesn't support X.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
Now I cannot take you seriously.
JouanDeag@reddit
Okay, good for you.
Many companies rely on cloud-init for both installation and configuration of both Linux and Windows guests with it.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
Honest question, you a bot? You ignore two links that contract your claim, then agree that cloud-init is important. You deflect from NoCloud like it's a workable scalable solution (it's not). Then you agree that cloud-init is important. You think that sideloading an ISO is good for configuration of a guest when there are multiple virtio exploits. When the correct solution is to just build a proper metadata service that can actually handle the requests.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
Oh, you think?
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
Send link pls
mk9e@reddit
Running a business is a lot but if you feel like you can manage it: go off queen. Going to take more than technical skill to pull it off. Lot of other administrative tasks to keep you busy.
Have you looked into what it takes to become a certified partner? I wouldn't want to hire someone who wasn't, personally.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
Why do you think I'm solo?
mk9e@reddit
Targeting the very small business market and a perceived lack of commitment/investment. Also, who doesn't dream about running a company haha.
Am I off base?
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
4 years isnt commitment or investment? Interesting.
mk9e@reddit
Am I off base? Like dont take it as a personal attack. My baseline for reddit strangers is low.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
I dont man just weird assessment, trying to understand what gives impression.
Nnyan@reddit
Why do you think an org that is running Nutanix/VMware would use your product???
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
Rumor has it that some new pricing has doubled. Wondering if that's enough to cause orgs to take risks?
throwaway0000012132@reddit
Loooooooool what is this post?
There is no rumour, this is happening since Broadcom bought VMware. Prices have jumped allot and features have been squashed. For some years. It's real.
They also are being sued for millions, for several enterprises as well, due to not honouring contracts.
But I don't see and can't imagine any company/enterprise or even a 10 people team small business to jump from VMware (why a small business would use VMware is another question) into some unknown homebrew solution, that doesn't make any sense, from a business perspective. It's very risky, insecure and without any guarantees they won't kill their business if you can't support them, if you die or even go out of business, etc.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
Well we know the prices are skyrocketing, but is the desire to leave?
throwaway0000012132@reddit
It's not a question of desire, but more like it justifies or not? Many companies aren't happy with the high prices spikes, but they can't leave thousands of hosts and millions of investments just like that, it takes serious planning and thoughts.
Others have been hitting serious road blocks during the move into another(s) solutions. It's not easy nor cheap to move from VMware and in many cases it does involve dedicated teams just to perform this move, not to mention many contacts with OS support to solve unexpected bugs on their own OS.
Having said all that yes, enterprises are leaving VMware for good for some time. It's not new and the VMware products, while great and with features that no competition still has, have been crippled by Broadcom when they changed the prices and made long contracts void.
And unfortunately, the competition it still doesn't have a 1:1 product, but it's growing and getting there.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
If they're not leaving they're not serious. Once the budget starts cutting into new hires and on-call rotation there will be change. The question is, is that now?
throwaway0000012132@reddit
It's not now, it's been going for some years.
Since 2024 that Broadcom has been high price jumping, so companies have been jumping into other solutions since then (actually some have from 2023 when the partner network died).
Usually it's a mix: nuttanix, hyper-v, k8 or even cloud solutions. Proxmox is growing a lot as well, since it's EU and it has a strong community presence, while being cheap.
But it's not new and the first that have been hit by the high prices were the SMB market.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
I've worked with a few orgs who went from on-prem, then to cloud, and back to on-prem because cloud became too expensive. So, it seems like a lot of orgs are spinning between a cloud solution, vmware/nutanix.
throwaway0000012132@reddit
It's a mix, really. Some have just changed their eggs into VMware basket into another vendor basket.
Others have redesigned their apps to run on docker/k8 and have moved into local containers/cloud.
Some are still 100% cloud because it scales well and they have safeguards to avoid high prices.
Nuttanix isn't cheap as well...
throwaway0000012132@reddit
Wait what? Do you want users, as in enterprise contracts on your homebrewed solution?
Are you serious?
VMware has like 30 years of experience and it still has issues like security, severe guest OS issues and bugs on host OS, not too mention performance, integration and architecture designs that change through time, that requires entire teams of people to work on those.
They have entire department of people and many specialists from different OS that assist on many different levels, from engineering, networking, CPU emulation, storage and much more.
And it's products still have issues because software design and engineering isn't stale, it evolves and continues to grow through time.
Do you have all that by your self?
Also enterprises have big contracts, that require legal, deep auditing, certifications and true enterprise support that runs 24/7; do you think any serious costumer will jeopardize their whole business and risk to fire their entire employees if they go bust, not to mention the millions of dollars/euros of process and investors legal process against them?
This is either seriously naive or entirely clueless how any business uses a hypervisor.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
Not interested in enterprises. Not all orgs are enterprises. Some are small businesses under 50 employees who cannot afford the price hikes. These are the entities that I'm looking for.
throwaway0000012132@reddit
I see but I don't see as a business owner how to justify the risk from moving to VMware (and I don't see why a small business being on VMware is a good solution since cloud makes much more sense anyway, from a financial and growth perspective for small business) into an unknown, unsupported solution that I don't know if it will go bust any moment or if you die my business will take a huge hit. Also a business would require dedicated support that 1 person would had a hard time to fulfil, not to mention the more customers you would have, the demand for you would explode exponentially.
Do you understand? There is too much risk when there are solutions on the market right now that are cheaper, stable and with enterprise support.
Now if you have a solution that you think it can grow, make it open source and see if you get the community traction. Get more people to work with you and grow your solution, before you have many customers you must have a stable product that fills completely the void from VMware.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
What do you mean unsupported? You're making a lot of assumptions?
throwaway0000012132@reddit
I've worked on a startup that tried to implement a VMware alternative back in 2010 to know that the scale of support that a mature product gives vs something that is growing is very different. Once it's past the implementation phase, the real pains start. And it's not a 1 man job.
So if you can support, even a small business, go ahead. Just be ready for the high demand of support contacts.
fmdeveloper25@reddit
Already jumped to Scale Computing.
brownhotdogwater@reddit
Our org went scale computing. Not a big fan but middle ground between nutanix and proxmox
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
Yea I seen that they are at a local conf that I was going to checkout.
Crilde@reddit
Maybe try making a post over on /r/selfhosted, you may get a warmer reception and, more importantly, a bigger pool of folks with spare hardware for testing a hypervisor.
Nice going building your own hypervisor though!
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
Nah I want honesty and feedback. They're valid questions.
whetu@reddit
XCP-NG migration scheduled for later this year.
ClownLoach2@reddit
Absolutely. We just converted our last VM to HyperV yesterday, and are shutting down our remaining ESXi hosts later this week to add them to our HyperV cluster.
Cecil4029@reddit
Hey man. I know you're catching shit but it doesn't sound like you expect people to throw your solution into production tomorrow lol. Great job on making your own hypervisor. That's pretty sick.
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
All good, yea I'm looking for 1 or 2 small orgs to work with directly who seriously want to jump ship instead of getting passed back and forth by vmware corporate and nutanix corporate.
tommymat@reddit
Just switched to Hyper-V. Can’t justify nor support what Broadcom is doing to the SMB space.
Fatali@reddit
what does your feature set look like vs opennebula/Proxmox?
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
Been a bit since I looked at proxmox but last time I checked it didn't have VPC networking nor did it support userdata in cloud-init.
bearcatjoe@reddit
Oh yeah. Looking to switch to someone's personal project to run the Enterprise!
nwcs_sh@reddit (OP)
Only looking for companies < 50 employees actually, but I do have enterprise functionality like live migration, decoupled storage, etc.
Money-Skin6875@reddit
Don’t tell my ex-boss…he’d pre-emptively buy 10 years of support.
throwaway117-@reddit
We're moving from vmware to Nutanix.
BaconEatingChamp@reddit
That's what we did as well, still have cisco call manager on prem and needed one they'd support
runner9595@reddit
Hyper-V/SCVMM
Shoonee@reddit
We've got our renewal for the next 5 years, it's not pretty, but it's budgeted for, and I can get on with other work for the next few years.