Is giving up R-ATP worth it?
Posted by Big_Ball5349@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 36 comments
Hi, I'm 20 and currently enrolled in a college program that would give me R-ATP eligibility + a bachelors in aviation science. The program requires me to complete IR + Commercial under Part 141. i will be finishing my instrument very soon but am at a crossroads as to where to go next.
I have 220 TT already and would only need an additional 30 hrs of x-country time (+ any commercial training) if I went Part 61. If I were to continue Part 141, I would need to do another 130 hrs. I ran the numbers and would save a minimum of $15K and months of training going the 61 route.
I will still be graduating with my degree regardless but sticking with Part 141 will most likely cause me to graduate a year late.
Obviously, I would have to give up the R-ATP 500 hr reduction. However, with the current state of airline hiring, I'm not very confident in getting in at only 1000hrs anyway. I'm trying not to be too pessimistic and think long-term, but I figured getting all my ratings asap and getting hired as a CFI or finding another low-time pilot job may be my best bet.
My ultimate goal is the airlines but I'm planning to start with cargo first. Any advice is greatly appreciated! thanks :)
oopsthesoupisonfire@reddit
I was in almost the exact same position and ended up switching to part 61. I’m finishing up CFI now, so can’t really speak to if I regret it or not because I haven’t see it fully pan out. But based on what I know I would still say 61 is the way to go as long as you’ll still get that degree
kcearnest@reddit
Drop out of college and go 61
14Three8@reddit
It seems like not a lot of people are getting hired at restricted minimums. Are you in a cadet program?
Big_Ball5349@reddit (OP)
Unfortunately all the cadet programs I've looked at (including the Aviate partnership with my college) all require commercial at a min.
Reputation_Many@reddit
This is my opinion take it as you will. I think you should leave the 141 program, 99% of them are awful time wasters. And go the Part 61 route. You probably will not get hired anywhere with a restricted atp with the amount of pilots in the pool, unless you are a CFI for a school that has a flow program, and then you still probably wont get it till after 1500 hours.
Once you get your commercial, start working on your CFI, look for a job that day and almost everyday after that for any kind of job that flys a safe airplane you'd feel comfortable in. Don't fly a deathglider POS.
I was lucky I was able to get a job flying caravans around 700 hours without ever doing the CFI. Every time I started a CFI course I got a job. I probably should have started back up in a CFI course while I was on furlough from Spirit lol.
There are a lot of jobs out there, not all glamorous or fun. A lot of them suck. But paying your dues is part of the job.
Good luck with whatever you choose.
highflyer10123@reddit
This right here. Do it. Cheaper. Save money. Likely better learning experience. And usually part 61 schools will hire their own as CFIs.
swakid8@reddit
Disagree with it being a time waster….
If they are part of a cadet program that they got via the university, they are still getting picked up at 1000 hours in the current market….
That equals to building 121 time sooner…
SATSewerTube@reddit
Who in the crickey fuck is currently being picked up at 1k TT and R-ATP?
swakid8@reddit
Doesn’t matter, what matters is that it’s happening for folks who qualify for it and in are lined up already in Cadet programs…
There’s value of getting into a 121 gig 6-8 months sooner at 1,000 TT vs at 1,500 hours….
Thats all..
Big_Ball5349@reddit (OP)
Yea, I figured as much. I did my PPL Part 61 with a school that has a pretty good track record of hiring their own students so that's probably my safest bet right now. Thanks for the advice!
TxAggieMike@reddit
Well phrased.
Dav1dwyd@reddit
Im in a very similar situation about to make the move away from 141 at a University. Feel free to message me, I might be able to give some ideas.
DontAtMoi@reddit
In this market you will not get hired at R-ATP mins unless you are military or a cadet. Period.
Mrs_Fagina@reddit
Disagree with it being a time waste. Most people are focusing on the fallacy of the extremes (1,000 vs 1,500).
However, R-ATP you can get hired at 1,000, 1,100, 1,200, etc.
Even building at 80 hours/month that’s 4 months additional that your app can be on file for a recruiter. Standard CFIs don’t get a snif until 1,500, so complain when they’re not hired until 1,800.
Even if you can’t find anything at 1,000, you may get hit at 1,300. That’s 2 months earlier at even the best rate and a bare minimum hire for a normal CFI
MeatServo1@reddit
R-ATP at 1,000 hours is useless in the current market. And while we can’t know the future, there are 12k new CFIs in 2025 with only 7500 or so CFIs moved on to ATP. So not only will getting a CFI job be difficult, but CFI and no turbine or 135 experience won’t be what gets you a job in the next couple of years.
No-Advertising-1402@reddit
Another chiming in to say I disagree with you. University R-ATP, non cadet, off the street. Got two 121 CJOs at 1100 hours.
Flaky_Summer_9800@reddit
It’s far from useless. I went to a 141 and know several who have gotten hired lately. A lot of the cadet program are only available in 141 anyway which is how a lot of people are getting in. But there all getting in at 1000 hours or at least getting a class date.
b_sussy@reddit
I got hired off the street by a regional a month ago at ~900 hours because I’m RATP. Not exactly useless
Classic-Event3805@reddit
Not really true. I have plenty of CFIIs with R ATP at my part 141 flight school getting picked up at 970 hours. But the industry itself is gamble so…
MeatServo1@reddit
Are they in a cadet program through their 141 university, or are they R-ATP off the street hires?
Classic-Event3805@reddit
Cadet programs. SkyWest hiring picked up a lot at the end of last year and earlier this year but it’s slowing down with the geopolitical situation. Hopefully it picks back up
RealP4@reddit
As someone who went 141 it wasn’t worth it. I’d say switch majors if you can and go part 61. Trust especially in this hiring environment the 1000 hour thing is less likely to workout for you. Also you are 20. You can get to CFI/CFII fast but you are gonna be instructing for a bit anyway until you get to 23.
CombinationAlone4709@reddit
What majors do you recommend choosing instead?
RealP4@reddit
I can’t really answer that question because I don’t now your interests. I say study something that has job security. You more or less need a 4 year degree for the major airlines anyway. So if you are going to college studying something like for example mechanical engineering is a good one because you can go into so many different fields. If math and science isn’t your interest okay then don’t go engineering route but pick something where you will have the best chance of finding a job should the flying not workout. If you major in pro flight it’s so much more expensive than just going to a mom and pop school. 141 aviation I just don’t see it being worth it. You can/will learn all this stuff on your aviation journey. Also the experience I had was with a flight provider that charged so much money and limited what you can do and you are tied down to them. If you go part 61 you can change instructor or cut your losses and go to another flight school. 141 you are stuck with whatever flight provider regardless of how shady their business practices are. So yea personally don’t do Pro Flight.
CombinationAlone4709@reddit
I’m looking into studying aerospace engineering and working on flight training over summers. I was originally leaning towards going to western Michigan for pro flight, but it seems like there’s a lot of problems with the 141 system nowadays as it is so expensive to get a pro flight degree and a lot of people are having trouble getting flight time. I just started looking in to other routes but aerospace seem like a great major to pair with a CPL. Doing my flight training part 61 seems more attractive to me but it seems like a bachelors degree is necessary for a lot of high end jobs. I am split on if this would help me in the long run as it seems seniority is the #1 factor and I’m not sure how long this route would take.
RealP4@reddit
Good for you looking into engineering. I will say have you ever considered mechanical? It’s my understanding it pairs well with aerospace and many mechanical guys get job offers for Boeing and other companies anyway. But regardless awesome choice. And your take pretty much is solid. Even the good pro flight programs in my expensive are over priced for what you get. There is zero reason why you can’t get that knowledge by yourself. In fact some of the knowledge gaps by people graduating from these universities I’ve encountered are shocking.I know of a guy who while working on a degree at 19 went from ppl to CfI/cfii in like a year ish. Don’t recommend that for most people but you can achieve your goals. I will say if you go the 61 route fly around with different CFIs and find one that will actually teach you how to fly and not just pass a test! A bachelors will help you get an engineering job and eventually help with the major airline goal whatever path you decide to go down. You got the right plan my friend you can absolutely get to where you want to go..you don’t need 141! Don’t repeat my mistakes haha
Away-Plantain7095@reddit
Although I lucked out big time logging turbine at 560, the road to get there was rough without CFI. My brothers are going through this same situation now and my biggest recommendation is get your CFI. fFy while making money teaching people, and apply everywhere you can at the same time. You can always leave the CFI job for greener pastures but you’ll be making money and logging TT at the same time.
RecheckFeePlease@reddit
Honestly, drop 141, save the $15k and knock your CFI and CFI-I out with it and bite the bullet and instruct the extra 6 months to hit 1500 TT.
Lots of 141 schools just don’t have good syllabuses so don’t feel any shame for swapping, happens a lot.
jet-setting@reddit
A decently busy CFI will build 500 hours in about 6-8 months, so in terms of just time, you could be on par or slightly ahead by switching.
It sounds like you probably started the program with a bunch of hours already? If that’s the case then yeah I’d probably swap 61 and finish it up.
Big_Ball5349@reddit (OP)
Yea I kinda regret not going for a non-aviation related degree while doing my flight training on the side :/ I think you're right though, thanks!
jet-setting@reddit
Ehh I’m not among the strict haters on the aviation programs in general but a good 61 is a great or even better option in many cases.
BrtFrkwr@reddit
Degree + ATP is what you need.
jalen9923@reddit
Bruh, you are 20…. Chill
BagOfMoneyNoChange@reddit
Are you in a cadet program?
Big_Ball5349@reddit (OP)
Unfortunately not, all the ones I looked at require Commercial. My school is partnered with United Aviate but they also require Commercial as well :/
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hi, I'm 20 and currently enrolled in a college program that would give me R-ATP eligibility + a bachelors in aviation science. The program requires me to complete IR + Commercial under Part 141. i will be finishing my instrument very soon but am at a crossroads as to where to go next.
I have 220 TT already and would only need an additional 30 hrs of x-country time (+ any commercial training) if I went Part 61. If I were to continue Part 141, I would need to do another 130 hrs. I ran the numbers and would save a minimum of $15K and months of training going the 61 route.
I will still be graduating with my degree regardless but sticking with Part 141 will most likely cause me to graduate a year late.
Obviously, I would have to give up the R-ATP 500 hr reduction. However, with the current state of airline hiring, I'm not very confident in getting in at only 1000hrs anyway. I'm trying not to be too pessimistic and think long-term, but I figured getting all my ratings asap and getting hired as a CFI or finding another low-time pilot job may be my best bet.
My ultimate goal is the airlines but I'm planning to start with cargo first. Any advice is greatly appreciated! thanks :)
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