Why not have high velocity bird shot?
Posted by Gizzy_kins54@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 36 comments
Why don’t shotguns ever have high velocity birdshot? More pellets would mean more even spread, and probably more lethal, right? Velocity is a huge contributor to a gun’s deadliness, so if you have a bunch of small projectiles with a bunch of speed, that would make it very effective, right? Also, it’s worth mentioning, I’m not thinking in a hunting context, but more so a militaristic context. I assume that if used for hunting, this would annihilate the meat.
Big_Bill23@reddit
"Also, it’s worth mentioning, I’m not thinking in a hunting context, but more so a militaristic context."
No military will not choose birdshot over buckshot or slugs. The reason (as has already been mentioned) is because it won't stop a threat. (This is the same reason birdshot should not be used for home defense.) Velocity is not a determining factor in this, instead it's purely a factor of the damage inflicted. #4 or 00 buck, at almost any distance, will deliver more damage to a body than birdshot will, at pretty much any velocity. Not only does wind resistance work against birdshot, but the instant it (call it #7 shot) hits flesh, it's energy (what little it has) is dissipated in very short order, so there's very little penetration.
MentalTelephone5080@reddit
High velocity bird shot exists but it's limited because lead shot will deform and lose pattern above a certain velocity. The recoil from a shotgun can also be brutal on faster velocity rounds. An AR15 has ~8lbs of recoil where regular 12 gauge target loads have around 18. Some slugs put you above 50.
After that let's look at some numbers. A 22LR has ~140 ft-lbs of KE. Most people consider that inadequate for anything but small game hunting. A single #8 bird shot going 1200fps only has 3 ft-lbs of KE. Shot placement is everything so a shotgun relies on peppering a target. The shot size BB at 1200 fps has 28 ft-lbs of KE. Still very low.
To get to the 140 ft-lbs range #8 shot needs to hit ~7,700 fps and a BB needs to hit 2700. One of those numbers is impossible with current tech and the second would be difficult. It would just be better to go to a rifle round that has a conical bullet that's built for higher velocity.
Sticky_3pk@reddit
I think what you're getting at is the idea behind flechettes. Otherwise, just use buckshot
hafetysazard@reddit
Use tungsten, boy!
Unicorn187@reddit
It would need to be beyond hypersonic, quite a bit faster, for it to create enough damage. At even 3000 fps it doesn't have the mass or momentum to do more than create large, but shallow wounds. It will shred a pec, but not penetrate to the heart or lungs. Maybe around 8,000 fps it will start to be reliably lethal/incapacitating.
Sensitive_Box_@reddit
You're looking for flechette
Traveller7142@reddit
Smaller pellets lose energy faster and don’t penetrate as well
idahohunterandfisher@reddit
And if you have the right gun it can k lock you on your butt
TacosNGuns@reddit
My 20ga Franchi o/u is the most punishing gun I own. It is a light carry when flushing birds.
Tumbleweed-Pool@reddit
3.5" 12 gauge shells feel like shooting a howitzer
WiseDirt@reddit
You ain't kiddin. First time I shot my dad's old 20ga with high brass turkey loads, it came pretty darn close to dislocating my shoulder
idahohunterandfisher@reddit
well if you want high velocity bird shot BBB and T shots are fore geese
Strong_Dentist_7561@reddit
Shot loses its pattern when pushed past c. 1100 fps
Stevko_1@reddit
i've noticed with my muzzle loading shotgun that too much velocity hurts the patterns
SakanaToDoubutsu@reddit
This isn't actually real though, Dr. A.C. Jones did a bunch of rigorous statistical analysis on how velocity affects patterns in his book Sporting Shotgun Performance and found no significant evidence that velocity affects patterns.
Stevko_1@reddit
from my experience. its real, but im not using plastic shot cups
ZaporozhianCossack@reddit
Why do my muzzleloading shotguns start to pattern so shitty when I start dumping in the FFg to make the loads pissin' hot?
SnoozingBasset@reddit
And using buckshot doesn’t mitigate this. Do you want a pattern 6’ wide with holes the size of a turkey? It also loses momentum quickly. I have read Buck won’t break a windshield at 100 yds.
sloppydoe@reddit
Nah buckshot is still lethal at 100
jgacks@reddit
I suppose depending on shell type- but 3.5inch magnum rounds will still mess stuff up at that range though the patterning would be so unpredictable. I think I recall a Paul Harrell or one of the older less flashy guntubers,maybe forgotten weapons with Ian or irange with carl doing "accuracy" (if you can call it that at 100 yards) and penetration testing out to 100 yards.
SightAtTheMoon@reddit
But for what purpose? A standard shotgun can be loaded with multiple types of loads but for lethality "without accuracy" it's hard to beat buckshot, especially in the context of a self-loader. Birdshot is an annoyant at best and can't be trusted to stop a threat, and in a military sense there's no point to "warning shots" anymore, so it's either buckshot or slugs.
ArceusTwoFour_Zero@reddit
I've had even heavy birdshot, #5 birdshot at 1,330 fps bounce off milk jugs at 15 yards, it doesn't inspire confidence if I were to blast a pissed off and high on meth Home invader with such loading. I will personally stick to #4 buckshot.
meleemaker@reddit
Im doubting this claim
Fluffy-Map-5998@reddit
velocity helps but the bullets also need mass, a tiny hole thats twice the size is still tiny,
brodey420@reddit
I mean is 3” or 3 1/2” magnums are basically high velocity burd shot. It’s just not called high velocity. Bird shot is also already higher velocity than “sporting clay” shots. They also make 3” turkey magnum vs 3“ upland game rounds all are changes in the powder charge and most are the same size pellets depending on what you buy.
Imdoingscience@reddit
So uh, this is why physics is fun. A typical birdshot pellet (#7) is about 1.25 gr. Compare this to, eg, buckshot at 55 gr or a 9mm bullet at 124 gr. Penetration from bullets compes primarily through momentum (velocity * mass) not, as you might expect, from kinetic energy (m*v\^2). There's also a bit about shape and whatever, but go with me here since we're not talking about shaping the birdshot into conical shapes.
To get a 1.25 gr shot to achieve anything like the penetration for buckshot, you'd need it to be going something like 50,000 fps. Even 3.5" shells are not going to get much past 1,500. Granted, you're not trying to get it to penetrate drywall like buckshot does so let's say 20,000 fps. To achieve that kind of speed, you're also pretty quickly going to run into barrel pressure requirements that are wildly impractical and pellet deformation (pancaking) just to solve a problem that's already been kind of solved by just... using a different shot.
SakanaToDoubutsu@reddit
Shotguns are basically a holdover from the black powder era and operate at very low pressure by comparison to metallic cartridges. The 12 gauge has a SAAMI maximum pressure of 11,500 PSI, whereas 9mm Luger has a maximum pressure 35,000 PSI and 308 Winchester has a maximum pressure of 62,000 PSI. This low pressure creates a hard upper limit on velocity at about 2,000 fps, and you really can't get shotguns to go faster than that.
Electronic-Split-492@reddit
And so if you are capped on velocity, you want to maximize your mass.
A slug would be the extreme end of this. 1oz of lead has a lot of knockdown power. But most people want shotguns for the pattern, so the midpoint between birdshot and a slug is going to be somewhere between #4 - 000 buckshot.
Remington used to make 2x4 - a mix of #2 and #4 shot. Good pattern with decent sized shot pellets and manageable recoil. Those are still in my closet gun today.
StoreDowntown6450@reddit
I have lots of 3" HV turkey loads. Not sure if that qualifies, but they make it
SakanaToDoubutsu@reddit
Shotguns are basically a holdover from the black powder era and operate at very low pressure by comparison to metallic cartridges. The 12 gauge has a SAAMI maximum pressure of
TacTurtle@reddit
Air resistance increase with the square of the speed, that is to say 2x the speed = 4x the drag, 4x the speed = 16x the drag.
Going it denser shot like hevishot or tungsten provides similar benefit with less drawbacks regarding recoil and pressure ... denser shot = smaller frontal area for given weight = less wind resistance = shot retains the velocity better = retains lethality farther.
The denser shot also means it will penetrate better (better sectional density) as a bonus.
yaboibeasty@reddit
Even if it was high velocity it is inferior to almost any other shot. Buck is bigger and packs the punch and will cause lethal damage easily. Flechette is better for penetration and light (body) armor, bean bags are good for non lethal, and to subdue. Birdshot is for birds or small game hunting, it would never be effective to the degree you would think. It would actually be better to keep the spread as minimal as possible for bird shot to have any real effect past pissing them off or pacifying them. If you did in fact cause lethal damage it would be a torturous and painful death, possibly prolonged due to the type of injury, therefore making it illegal in war.
It just doesnt make sense to use it outside its intended purpose, no matter what you do, it will still be less effective in every other use.
Underwater_Karma@reddit
I've seen birdshot knock beer bottles over without breaking them. It has no anti personnel value.
dvoecks@reddit
Shotguns are low pressure, and the individual pellets are small. So, even if you could push them really fast, they wouldn't stay moving that fast very long.
You definitely can buy some hunting loads that are high(er) velocity. When you're wing shooting, you don't have to lead as much, and the pattern doesn't string out as far. Though "fast" is like 1550 fps versus 1200.
HaveAidsWillTravel@reddit
HV birdshot has been around for a very long time. And its called birdshot for a reason. Bird bones are much thinner than human/deer bones and velocity doesn't equal momentum.
Saint-Ecks-Isle@reddit
See, the projectiles in birdshot are ITTY BITTY LIL THANGS, might probably feel like a bunch of needles hit you....but, bigger, heavier projectiles provide more stopping power, thus more damage.