What would you say is the most Libertarian country an American can move to relatively easily?
Posted by dlham11@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 117 comments
My family and I have been contemplating relocating out of the USA, largely related to recent political events, corruption scandals, etc.
Maybe I’m pessimistic, but all of these events seem to have no sign of stopping or slowing down.
We’ve been doing research into several countries, and many of them sound amazing… until we realize that we can’t move there as Americans, without either an extreme amount of money for the average person, an extremely niche skill in an industry, or family living there.
We’re still going to continue doing our own research, but I’d love to hear the community’s opinions on what their ideal location is and why.
Thanks in advance, to anyone who responds.
Tyton408@reddit
Stay and fight coward
Kev50027@reddit
Doomers gonna doom and try to run away.
-poxbox-@reddit
https://economicfreedom.heritage.org/
The USA isn't particularly free or unfree.
At the end of the day politics don't massively affect most people's lives in western countries and they tend to disproportionately affect certain people over others.
For instance: IF you got drafted into the viet nam war then the USA for you was at the very bottom of the Index, around where North Korea or Cuba would be.
I just got back from Thailand and if you can be a digital nomad there with a western income, it's like 1/3-1/4 the cost of living. But it's a monarchy and if you step on the king's picture you can go to jail or something.
So which country do you want to live in more? The one where a house is 50% of your spending or the one where it's 20% but you can't step on the king?
So where would you go that's better than where you are? That depends a lot but certainly it will have almost nothing to do with whatever the president is doing this or that week and remember the USA and most western countries had strict covid lockdowns almost overnight so whatever freedom exists can vanish tomorrow anyway because no place on earth actually has a large population of libertarians anyway.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
That last paragraph especially is one of my largest concerns about upheaving my life to move somewhere else, just because it might be better now.
-poxbox-@reddit
Don't listen to journalists and pundits, their business model is ragebait and fearmongering.
Try to actually figure out objective measure of how different your life would be elsewhere. That means income progression, social life, culture, tax rates, cost of living etc.
Something like proximity to your family can be worth a lot of money basically. Like what's it worth to live 5 minutes away from your parents and having them watch the kids or having family gatherings etc.
But some people actually hate their family so they'd love to live really far.
It's that kind of thing that affects your life quality infinitely more than politics.
The people who do the worst in markets are those with a little knowledge. They think they can predict the future but have to little actual knowledge to understand that... they can't. So they make big mistakes. Like those people who live out in the woods "prepping" for a disaster that hasn't happened for like 3 generations by now. Don't be that person. Don't fuck up your life because you think based on watching the news you have some insight on whatever disaster is coming.
I live in Canada we just went through 10 years of one of the worst dumbasses to be elected for any office and by all accounts he wrecked the economy but most people won't have noticed any difference in their daily routine.
bteam3r@reddit
The answer is to stay in the US and move to a state that has no income tax, as those will be the ones trending more Libertarian. Virtually nowhere else even comes close.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
Most of these states tend to be highly conservative on social values, over-policed, and over-regulated. I live in one of them, and I hate a lot about it.
Additionally, property taxes tend to be absurd.
Economically speaking, I still wouldn’t even agree. Several of them have absurd costs for licensing to start businesses, not even pertaining to safety regulations.
Maybe I’m lacking awareness of a glorious land in America, and if so please do tell.
But that’s been my experience.
Sufficient_Baby8316@reddit
Unfortunately, you’ll have to decide what freedoms matter most to you and prioritize based on that. For instance, if you’re a woman of childbearing age or you have daughters, you may want to consider that Wyoming, while stronger on gun rights and some other regulations, has a 6 week abortion ban.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
Any word on Wyoming drug laws?
Obviously cannabis regulations are a hot topic right now, and I’m sure 5 minutes of internet research could answer my questions.
But a lot of things sound good on paper, and are garbage in practice, so I’m curious what it’s like from someone living there.
Sufficient_Baby8316@reddit
Oh, I don’t live there! The drug laws seem to be strict, but can’t speak to how they’re enforced.
groshreez@reddit
Seems like that's the direction most red states are headed. I couldn't live in a red state because of my daughter. Thankfully I got to WA before the AW ban.
Sufficient_Baby8316@reddit
I feel like abortion really gets forgotten in a lot of libertarian discussions, but as a woman, this is one of the most fundamental freedoms for me, above most of the ones people talk about here. Thank you for thinking of your daughter’s safety.
commandercool86@reddit
Try any small town in Arizona. Constitutional carry. Legal weed. Business friendly.
groshreez@reddit
And soon no water. People moving to Arizona are crazy.
cathercules@reddit
Enjoy the couple months of the year it’s not triple digits
bschmidt25@reddit
Arizonan here. A lot of the state is high desert so it's relatively mild, even in the summer. Picture days in the 90s and nights in the 50s. No one lives here for the summer.
groshreez@reddit
Consistent 90s is way too hot for me. I left humid/hot Houston for Seattle and now I complain it's too hot when Seattle gets in the upper 70s.
cathercules@reddit
Admittedly my opinion is tainted by coworkers in the phoenix area.
bschmidt25@reddit
I’m in Phoenix so I can relate. It’s damn hot. Lots of people go up north on the weekends to escape it.
groshreez@reddit
I had a friend who moved there during the summer. It was 118° on move-in day, and she discovered her house AC had just bit the dust. Despite the impending lack of water there, I don't understand why people would willingly move somewhere so hostile to human survival.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
That’s where I stood when it came to AZ. Im definitely not gonna be able to convince myself, let alone my wife, to live somewhere so damned hot.
grot-ivre-1749@reddit
Interested in understanding more about where you see the gap between where you live and libertarian values.
No regulations and no policing is anarchist, not libertarian.
I believe what you seek is a balance of power between those who govern and those who consent to be governed.
This happens through active and vigorous interaction by an informed electorate versus simply voting according to “conservative” or “liberal” branded politicians or policies. That’s how a libertarian driven democracy is paid for.
Please don’t take this as a criticism but wanting to move where libertarianism has already been established is akin to wanting to move into a nice home without paying for it.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
I do agree.
I live in FL, where a lot of… uninformed conservatives are who simply believe their party is the good guys.
DeSantis has done some good, in terms of economic freedoms. But he’s also pushing to mandate flood insurance on all homes, regardless of living in a flood zone.
I feel as if my gripe about being “over-policed” is not the same as saying I want no police. Example being, Florida just made having ANY license plate cover (even if it doesn’t cover important information) a criminal offense.
You can now be arrested, have your vehicle impounded and searched simply for having the dealer cover on it.
They’re incredibly strict when it comes to drug laws, with simple possession equating to a felony for most drugs.
They have red-flag laws regarding firearms, which are very loosely worded. This leads to a significant concern.
Not to mention COL here is absolutely insane. Even in the “affordable” areas. Which also raises the price of insurance that we’re legally obligated to have.
No income tax is cool.
Insane business license costs depending on the sector.
Actively attempting to monopolize the marijuana industry in the legalization bills due to large lobbying from the two companies that were able to afford the state-enforced fees.
Plus it’s hot as fuck here lmao
Anaxes-@reddit
Sounds like you need to move to Wyoming.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
I’ve heard decent things. Care to share your favorite parts?
notfornowforawhile@reddit
Paraguay if you’re willing to jump into the unknown.
El Salvador and Panama if you are okay being in countries that suck up to the US and Israel.
But ultimately nowhere beats the US in terms of a culture of freedom.
FoxThink8898@reddit
Calling El Salvador libertarian has to be some kind of sick joke. They're run by a dictator who can throw anyone he doesn't like in jail at a moment's notice and is perfectly happy to do so. They'e cracked down on journalists and political opposition. Their government is just a right wing version of Nicaragua's Ortega.
Takingtheehobbits@reddit
None. What other country has something akin to our bill of rights? In regards to the extent it affirms right to free speech, bear arms, etc.
Copthill@reddit
South Africa?
remedyman@reddit
As someone that has worked with a few South Africans I find this QUITE funny.
cathercules@reddit
Beautiful country with lots of potential but don’t think it would appeal to libertarians.
spacechimp@reddit
While no other country has anything equivalent to what the bill of rights promises, the lack of compliance to it has made it a joke.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
This has been my biggest gripe. The bill of rights gets TRAMPLED. All the time.
And half the time SCOTUS allows it.
SacagaweasUncle@reddit
How does resetting your life elsewhere seem like a better solution than staying? The truth of the matter is that we (Americans) live in the greatest country in the world at the best time to be alive in it. No civilization in known history compares to the US and what its accomplished in 250 years. I'm not saying that you're wrong. We have MANY problems here, but whenever I see a post like this I can't help, but ask this question: Where, in our actual reality, is it truly better for a common person? Everyone has grass is greener fantasies (myself included), but the reality of relocation as an average person is daunting to say the least, most likely impossible and you'll ultimately end up worse off. Remember, you're joining a brand new (to you) society that's fully up to speed and is already interconnected. All of the relationships you spent a lifetime collecting are gone and now you're trying to add yourself to other's ongoing operations in a place with less economic opertunity, a possible language barrier, certifcations and credintials that may not be recognized in your new location. Just doesn't seem like the juice is worth the squeeze if you're a working class American trying to become a working class insert-new-country-name here.
Takingtheehobbits@reddit
I’ll take that any day over any other country.
lambleezy@reddit
The Czech Republic has something akin to the 2A. Constitutionally protected right to self defense via firearms if im not mistaken
Takingtheehobbits@reddit
Not if they can’t carry guns around on their person out and about.
lambleezy@reddit
I believe they can have concealed carry. Im not 100% positive as I mainly follow us gun laws to keep up the family FFL.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
Last I checked, yes they can. And they have very pro-self defense laws.
Takingtheehobbits@reddit
I’ll have to look in to it but I’d be surprised if it was to the degree that we have in the states. Tho then again some European countries view suppressors as safety equipment which is a view of them I wish we had here,
dlham11@reddit (OP)
Indeed. I believe CR is one of them, too.
SheeshNPing@reddit
Czech is a notoriously difficult language to learn. There are people that speak English in many places but you will be kinda isolated if you don't know the local language.
ElkInside5856@reddit
I’ve always found it suspicious and somewhat depressing that in 250 years the people of any other country has looked at the Bill of Rights and said, “We should have that too” and fought for it.
ManBearPigPoop@reddit
This makes me proud and sad at the same time.
ambirch@reddit
It depends on what part parts of libertarianism you value the most. I've generally found developing countries to be very libertarian in the sense that you can live your life, how you want, nobody cares about your safety. You can take whatever kind of risk you want. Want to build some ugly utilitarian building go for it. But there often is more corruption and the specific protections that we have against government intrusion don't exist.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
I personally value things that are simply individual personal freedoms.
If I want to build a house by hand, I don’t want some ~~nanny~~ government telling me I need permits, approval from contractors, etc.
I don’t want to hear I need to be connected to the grid because I live close to it.
Preferably progressive drug policies.
Preferably accessible firearms, ammunition, usability.
Accessible hunting/fishing.
A lack of insane government surveillance.
Minimal taxes, and said taxes should be used for (good) social services.
No insane laws governing self defense.
To generally sum it up, if someone wants to live off of their own land, their own way, and isn’t hurting someone, they’re allowed to.
Copthill@reddit
Come to South Africa. You can almost do whatever you want if you aren't infringing on anyone else.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
I’ll do some research, but I think the climate would kill my wife lmao
Phaylontis@reddit
Taiwan has a lot of laws, but enforcement is lacking. Ranked high in economic freedom. Tough if you don't speak Mandarin.
Puerto Rico is popular as a US territory. Low tax, but it has had a lot of issues with basic utilities for a while. Also, the local people trend more to the socalist side.
Switzerland is the best in the world but extremely expensive.
Denmark, Ireland, and the Netherlands are good tier 2 choices for Europe.
Economically, Singapore is very good, but it has some harsh social laws and punishments.
Nothing is perfect, and it really depends on If you are prioritizing economic freedom or social freedom. It also depends on if you have a lot of capital, language skills, work expireance, education level etc.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
Social freedom is up there. Economic freedom, while things may suck, if the conditions are survivable we don’t really care.
Switzerland is unfortunately out of the question. It was our first pick.
It’s incredible difficult to move there as a non-EU citizen
pervertoftime@reddit
Have you looked into Cayman Islands? I believe it’s one of the only countries in the world where you can buy land without reoccurring government taxes. Cayman Islands is a British Colony though.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
I’ll look into it, but the British Government might be a turn off.
Thank you for the insight.
squnto@reddit
A different state in America lol 💀👻
dlham11@reddit (OP)
Might be our best option.
Still hate our fed though.
Borry_drinks_VB@reddit
At least you're not in Australia.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
oceangrown1993@reddit
Montana, Nevada, Arizona, New Hampshire, Alaska would be my top picks. Maybe throw Maine in the mix?
If you were going for right-leaning libertarian Wyoming, West Virginia, maybe Florida. Florida is somewhat business friendly but is crazy restrictive and overpoliced in other aspects. They monopolized the weed industry which is what I do for a living to make it so only Big Weed gets a piece of the pie.
I don't think any state is more libertarian than Alaska. I could be wrong. But Alaska is also Alaska. Cold, dark, expensive.
Left leaning libertarian.. maybe New Mexico? Wisconsin maybe, Michigan?
As a Californian I would pick a right leaning state over a left leaning state for sure.
Don't pick Idaho, Idaho fucking sucks. Its basically a blue line loving police state. Ask me how I know.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
I’ve heads Wyoming come up quite a lot in conversation. I’m probably going to start doing a great deal of research into it, just to see what’s what there.
I live in florida, and the business regulations of specific industries are full blown, state enforced monopolies.
And you’re damned right about over-policing.
It’s also expensive, with most people living in near-total poverty even in the “affordable” areas.
Plus it’s hot as hell, and who wants that?
CopiousAmountsofJizz@reddit
You stay here and help clean up this mess pussy.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
Lmao, it’s a thought in my head.
I’ve been considering various options. This post isn’t a “We’re leaving tomorrow,” thing. It’s a “if we need to leave where should I even start looking” thing.
I’ve been wanting to do something to help solve this situation, but I’m very limited in my capabilities.
currentlyhigh@reddit
Nevada lol
KFran1978@reddit
I've lived outside of the US and let me tell you that the grass is not greener on the other side. Most of the Western World is a type of socialist type of system spiraling towards communism. Look at the rate of Expats returning. You'll be surprised how many though the same way you did only to find out they were wrong.
Also, you might want to stop listening to the media as the propaganda machine is working at full capacity. They want you to think the the state of the US is in a steep decline.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
I haven’t been listening to media. I’ve been reading up on the latest laws getting passed, both good and bad.
There’s a LOT of bad. A lot of mass surveillance. A lot of human rights violations. A lot of crazy shit, and very little being done by SCOTUS (granted it is 9 people with very limited time).
Not to mention this stupid ass war…
StylishStriker@reddit
lol…the blinders people wear.
Enjoy.
Purple-Inflation-571@reddit
Have you considered Ethiopia?
genegx@reddit
Large parts of Ethiopia are conflict zones. Regional ethnic groups are armed, have their own militias, including splinter groups that fight against other ethnic groups and their armed militias. Addis is primarily safe, but rule of law is shaky. My wife is from Ethiopia and has a large extended family there. We have an Ethiopian student in flight school here (FL), who is an Asylee , fought in the Tigray-EDF war. My wife is on her way to Addis now for a few weeks.
UKDude20@reddit
Argentina , they've jumped in with both feet
trentthesquirrel@reddit
Not sure what their gun and self defense policies are, but we were just in Puerto Rico for a week, and from the looks of it, you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want there.
patbagger@reddit
You're stuck right here, and thats why so many people from other countries want to be here.
Many Americans are like spoiled children that think things would be better if they could just move out of thier parents house.
GennyGeo@reddit
Somalia for the piracy. Arrr
squnto@reddit
RT
DiegoRP5@reddit
Estonia has once of the lowest tax pressure in the EU. And you are in the a civilized country with a western society.
ipini@reddit
Belize.
PhilRubdiez@reddit
The USA and it isn’t particularly close. Europe, Asia, and Australia are speedrunning a tax-heavy nanny state. Much of Africa and much of Asia aren’t exactly super developed (to US living standards). Maybe you might have some luck with Thailand or the Philippines if you have a decent amount of money to bribe officials with.
jjspirithawk@reddit
So maybe a better question might be "What is the most libertarian state, or county, we can move to relatively easily?"
mrrichardson2304@reddit
They've tried to make New Hamshire particularly Keene (the free Keene movement and free state project) more libertarian for years with varying degrees of success. It's my understanding that a lot of statists from Massachusetts and elsewhere have also been migrating there and counteracting this movement somewhat.
You also have the frontier project, which even had some success by getting a libertarian elected to a Wyoming house of Representatives seat. Some of these north western states are a little more libertarian leaning. You also have Alaska which is more libertarian than most states.
duhrZerker@reddit
The only state in New England without legal weed?
mrrichardson2304@reddit
I mean no state is perfectly libertarian. I don't know all the policies of various New England states and am in no way an expert on New Hamshire policies, but I do know it was pretty common from what I saw for people to smoke cannabis pretty out in the open in Keene and even if it were illegal, it wasn't heavily enforced. Don't know if that's still the case.
duhrZerker@reddit
I’ve always viewed the “Live free or die” motto as more self aggrandizing than reality.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
This might end up being the best question to ask, unfortunately.
Do you have any input regarding state/county regulations?
jjspirithawk@reddit
Maybe start with Freedom in the 50 states (Cato Inst.)
dlham11@reddit (OP)
Appreciate it. Thank you.
Alan_Turings_Apple@reddit
Argentina post Milei
afterpartea@reddit
Saint Kitts comes to mind
someone_sometwo@reddit
What's attractive about st Kitts?
afterpartea@reddit
Tax haven. But I just found out you gotta spend 400k to get there so I assume that applies to each family member.
jimmy_leonard1@reddit
Argentina?
dlham11@reddit (OP)
I shall research. Thank you.
Realdeal43@reddit
Portugal, Switzerland, Bahamas lol
dlham11@reddit (OP)
Switzerland is a hell of a difficult place to move to as a resident, as a non-EU citizen.
I’ll look more into Portugal and the Bahamas.
steester@reddit
Latin America seems pretty Libertarian, no? But not that easy to move to long term. Need a bunch of investment or marry a citizen.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
Most countries that I find that are libertarian, or libertarian-esque, have that drawback
JagerGS01@reddit
I remember hearing some Tom Woods episodes about this, and though I don't remember all the particulars, I came away thinking Panama City would be my go to. I think there's a large contingent of American ex pats there and the cost of living isn't ridiculous, there's decent services available, and I can speak passable Spanish. I would encourage you to find and listen to it yourself; I have no serious plans to leave the US, and so have not examined the possibility thru that lens.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
I’ll see if I can find it, thank you.
InterviewLeast882@reddit
NH
ReindeerTypical2538@reddit
Literally the United States. lol. We are the most libertarian 1st world country by a long shot
superspacetrucker@reddit
Somalia! No income taxes, no regulations, no government telling you what to do, in fact there's hardly any gov at all. You'll be free to do the best you can through your hard work.
luckoftheblirish@reddit
Somalia collapsed into civil war after opposition groups rose up and forcefully ousted the communist military dictatorship that had already been weakening the country's economy for decades. They were then invaded by Ethiopia, which stoked tensions between different warring factions.
They aren't "libertarian" they are a failed (formerly) communist state.
Notworld@reddit
I would not want to be living in a country where I am not a citizen. The world is changing. Nationalism is coming back with a vengeance.
Theotherfeller@reddit
Somalia ;)
But livable places, I hear Paraguay is pretty hands off, except for the mosquitos and the oppressive heat.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
“Oppressive heat”
I can’t talk my wife into that lmao
NM_Requete@reddit
Maybe search the subreddit and read the answers in one of the 690,000+ other times this questions has been asked here?
dlham11@reddit (OP)
My apologies for wishing to engage in a discussion regarding Libertarianism on a Libertarian discussion board, without hijacking an old thread.
I will never ask a question that’s already been asked again.
NM_Requete@reddit
Beautiful attempt at the guilt trip. It would be a lot more affective if it wasn't literally one of the most over asked questions on this subreddit.
The point I'm making isn't "don't ask questions or stary discussions." it's that you should at least make an effort to see if your question has been done to death to the point where there is literally nothing more to add to it.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
I fail to recognize an ever-changing political climate as “a discussion that has nothing left to add to it”.
America is changing by the day. So is every other country.
While I do understand that it’s a question that’s been asked probably more times than a person can count, it’s an ever changing conversation with no right answer.
It’s not like I’m asking “what’s 2+2?” or a question with an objective reality. As stated in my post, I personally have looked into dozens of countries trying to find answers.
I’m not particularly new to this sub, and I’m aware it’s asked often. I personally don’t understand the annoyance of hearing a question regarding a complicated topic being asked multiple times, even if previous conversations regarding said question or topic can be found. Especially when related to political topics.
ConspiracyBarbie@reddit
Well, it used to be Canada….
NoahEric123@reddit
How long ago?
MusicCityJayhawk@reddit
what? insanely high taxes relative to the US.
Ok-Cobbler-4092@reddit
America
walesjoseyoutlaw@reddit
there is none
dlham11@reddit (OP)
Hence why I specified “most” libertarian. There is no such thing as paradise, but one might be able to get close.
iCallMyOppsNinjer@reddit
Just so you're aware you still gotta pay federal income tax on Income generated abroad unless you renounce your citizenship, this was a factor but far from the sole factor as to why I didn't stay in London/UK after grad school. Granted, London really is a shithole these days. Too many crackheads, east, south, west, north it's crackhead galore.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
Yeah, we’re aware. It’s an incredibly big and difficult decision to make.
I appreciate you looking out for it, however.
skiphandleman@reddit
Depends on whether you're more concerned with the economic or social aspects of Liberterianism. Taxwise, another poster mentioned no income tax US states. They tend to check the economic box but generally tend to be socially conservative. Another option is Switzerland, although I think they recently put a cap on immigration. Their taxes tend to be higher than thr US, bit lower than most EU countries. It also variies widely by locality.
dlham11@reddit (OP)
I personally care far more for the social factors, though that’s just us.
Economic factors are important, but I’d argue I wouldn’t be unhappy with my tax dollars actually doing something good, like Switzerland.
We actually looked into Switzerland specifically before any other country, as I had done research a long while ago and they were my first pick of where to live.
The process of moving there as an American (more specifically, non-EU) has become exceptionally difficult in the last decade or so, however.
Unless you’re retired, rich, have family there, or are able to fill a job niche that your employer would need to justify to their government why they needed to hire outside the country, it’s not really doable.
NeoWayland@reddit
“Perfect it’s not, but it’s the best thing this world’s got.”
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