Video showing Chechen/Uzbek fighters affiliated with the Syrian ministry of defence, testing the American M855A1 5.56x45mm "enhanced performance" round against the Soviet 7N22 AP (armour piercing) 5.45x39 round by firing both ammunition from a customized AK-74 and M16A4 at a Soviet BRDM.
Posted by Sad-Commission2027@reddit | ForgottenWeapons | View on Reddit | 61 comments
The 7N22 and 7N10 are relatively plentiful in Syria due to Russian supplies to the Assad regime while the M855A1 is uncommon and most likely came from US military stocks that were given to the Kurdish led SDF who got defeated in January
Sad-Commission2027@reddit (OP)
See this what makes the M7 such an unnecessary waste of money and time.
Instead of of building an entire new rifle and a new around from the ground up, why not just make 5.56mm rounds designed penetrate Modern body Armor.
kilojoulepersecond@reddit
The M1186 GP round the M7 fires is an EPR-type round similar to M855A1 and M80A1. M1184 SP is related to M1158 ADVAP.
5.56 rounds fired using extreme pressures similar to the M7 (5.56 MAX -- considerably more powerful than even NAS3) have been demonstrated to have impressive short range armor pen, but these can't be achieved without entirely new weapons systems as they can't be safely fired from legacy platforms. Do note that 5.56 loses energy with range much faster than 6.8.
Bullets aren't magic and there's a limit to what you can get out of 5.56, especially from an existing M4. Existing M995 is handily defeated by current gen plates and there's not all that much improvement to be made. People love to hype up the CBJ-MS and the idea of dumping tungsten saboted flechette 5.56 rounds at the enemy, but note that this idea was already tried by the US with the ACR program and has issues, including the ejected sabots being a hazard to nearby friendlies and the miserable terminal ballistics of a 2mm dart slicing a 2mm hole in the enemy.
sdeptnoob1@reddit
Easily could have gone 6arc/ 6.8spc/ 6.5 Grendel with increased pressures and either just needed new uppers or if new guns lighter weapons than the current one. New uppers even lowers but still an AR15 platform would have kept issues with mounting and rack solutions used by the military as a whole. So much is designed for the m4/m16.
me239@reddit
Not to mention that driving up pressures dramatically makes physics give a big fuck you in the form of barrel wear. An army has to worry about logistics, and a barrel that lasts 1/10th that of its predecessor is a coming nightmare for forward deployed troops. Which makes you wonder why they adopted the M7...
PRiles@reddit
Traditionally the Army adops and fieldz weapons with problems, often problems that don't really show up in controlled testing and through controlled adoption through out the force we can work with the manufacturer to solve those issues. It seems like the Army is generally happy with the progress so far.
2025ngsw.pdf https://share.google/8SFw6Gb5MIH57t6xj
justaheatattack@reddit
and how is Mrs. Sig?
medney@reddit
Killed by a P320 that was angered by a gentle breeze
jelliedbabies@reddit
Shell shock has steel case rounds that work fine in legacy platforms from which the design off the 277 fury was obviously based on, and there are a number of groups trialing them with 100,000 psi loads.
kilojoulepersecond@reddit
Said groups trialing them with extremely high pressures are also procuring new guns to shoot them with, which negates some of the point of saving money. Though it will allow for using some of the same proven 5.56 projectile designs those units are using.
NewManufacturer6670@reddit
55A1 isnt even the top of the line ammo, M995 is.
HellHathNoFury18@reddit
Only so much 62gr can do. 277 Fury is a 135gr pill at 3000fps coming out of a 16" barrel. Vs M855 needing a 20" barrel to reach 3,000fps and being less than half the mass.
Obviously there's tradeoffs both ways, but unless you're running depleted uranium rounds I don't think 5.56 is gonna get much better at armor penetration.
This is coming from someone who only has a mild understanding of all this though, so I'm probably wrong.
SoftwareUpdateFile@reddit
I think some of the other concerns also have to do with the longevity of components because of the higher pressures and the amount of ammo one person can reasonably carry due to its greater weight and lower magazine capacity. Also, I've heard that volume of fire beat out precision at range in engagements during American deployments in the Middle East. On paper, the .277 sounds great but doesn't offer many other advantages over 5.56.
Dragnet714@reddit
It makes me wonder if the m7 will fare like the m14.
me239@reddit
Hardcore it will. My guess is it'll end up in a DMR role, where it belonged originally, in a number of bastardized configurations over the coming years, and the M4 will get something like a magpul grip to shut people up.
garnett8@reddit
I think it will
mindyabisnuss@reddit
Longevity-yes, but don't underestimate a grunts ability to break a standard M4, either. Amount of ammo is always a problem. Standard M4 load out was 210 rounds - 7 magazines. Standard M7 load out is 140 rounds - 7 magazines. Volume of fire comes from MGs, not individual rifles. Unless there is a lot of close-quarter fighting, I would prefer something with a little more reach than an M4.
WalkerTR-17@reddit
An M4 has an effective range much further than you can accurately hit under stress I promise you
That1guyDerr@reddit
They should just have the ACR come back, we need the OG drip rifle
Brown_Colibri_705@reddit
6.8 SPC is the worst out of the three options
Not_an_alt_69_420@reddit
At least it looks cool
JMHSrowing@reddit
While I’m not going to agree with the M7 and its bad cartridge combination, there’s only so much that can be done with the tiny projectile.
Modern body armor being made of better stuff than mass produced Soviet steel is also an issue.
Though:
I really do wonder if they can’t make APDSDS rounds for small arms. That way you could get way more penetration and only use said very compromise cartridge when needed and usually use a more sensible type of ammunition
N_fire@reddit
you need to see this video
JustACanadianGuy07@reddit
Theres a reason why this hasn’t been adopted by any major body for over 20 years: they are expensive and have poor effect on target. All that’s actually going through the armour is a tiny metal rod. So while it can penetrate armour at short range, it won’t actually do much damage to the target.
JMHSrowing@reddit
As I said, APFSDS.
That’s an APDS but with the advantage of a cartridge made specifically for it (and it’s so short it doesn’t need fin stabilization). When adapting a weapon to use APDS it’s rather limited by twist rate of the cartridge.
But fin stabilization means you can get a way longer projectile and way more penetration.
Thats why tanks even with rifles barrels use APFSDS instead of APDS
Sad-Commission2027@reddit (OP)
As the video demonstrated, they designed a round that can penetrate a lightly armored vehicle when normally you would need .50 cal for that.
Anti body Armor 5.56 isn't outside of the realm of possibility.
JMHSrowing@reddit
The armor of these vehicles was never up to .50 cal. I mean you can see how thin it is, according to Wikipedia it’s 10mm of steel maximum. That’s not a lot.
That’s below the penetration of 7.62 AP at close range. That’s why the light vehicles like this are often rated for AP rifle fire only at a couple hundred yards
How except for a APFSDS would you make such an anti-armor 5.56? The stuff we are using already which armor defends against uses tungsten carbide cores and maximin pressure/velocity.
RamTank@reddit
I do agree with the second point, but I don’t think the video actually supports it. The BRDM actually has less protection than level 4 plates.
justaheatattack@reddit
yeah, but we can actually hit a brdm at this distance.
Brown_Colibri_705@reddit
Because 5.56 will never defeat armor as well as 6.8x51.
L3thalPredator@reddit
Check out the XM8. Its an already updated version of the M7. Lighter weight, shorter barrel, better accuracy, plus 25 rounds instead of only 20. only loosing 150-200fps is the only downside. Compared the the M7. Itll basically be the M4 to the M16.
Plus 556 has its limits. 6.8's limits are much higher than 556 since it has a chamber pressure almost 50% higher than 556. The heavier projectile and higher pressure also allows for better accuracy at range. I dont have any sources but i believe their testing a 6.8 Depleted uranium penetrator round which would be absolutely devastating.
And this 556 is only like 62gr at around 3000fps. The 6.8 is getting close to the same velocities with a projectile that weighs about 2.5-3x more.
Bascially ammo has its limits.
LetsGatitOn@reddit
Profit. That is always why
Lu1zBeast@reddit
Because part of the requirement was penetrating that body armor out to a certain distance that 5.56 cannot reach. The M7 is still a POS, but it does what it was designed to do (until body armor gets even better).
WalkerTR-17@reddit
Because it’s not great at penetrating lvl4 and equivalent plates.
rhadenosbelisarius@reddit
I agree with the AP portion of your assessment.
Unfortunately I think the 556 has really bad ballistic properties for a modern round. It has issues when trying to push its range out, and as we have seen we want our GP Infantry rifles to be able to really accurately reach out when the terrain calls for it.
I think using a new rifle for AP is a bad idea when a new round does the trick, but I do think some sort of upscaling was needed to push out our rifle range. Personally I think 6ARC was the best choice with 6.5C being an overpowered but decent alternative.
6.8 might work, but it lends itself to more drawbacks than it needs to complete its objectives without really adding much, IMO.
LuongLens@reddit
How will the sig executives buy their 6th vacation home then?
mykehawksaverage@reddit
And the general that approved the m7s salary at sig after he retires.
Real_Tropicana@reddit
For everyone wondering , this is a misleading video. The BRDM 2 has a well underneath it to store small roller wheels for tough terrain. What these guys are shooting at is the cover to that well, the real armor is behind the wheel well
TakowTraveler@reddit
Sorry sir, there's no way this is true because the top voted comment has 150 votes (vs your 10) and it says that 5.56 can be just as effective at penetrating body armor as 6.8x51.
OP notes elsewhere that this 5.56 round is doing things that only .50 BMG can do, and six (6) people upvoted that as well.
So democracy confirms that you're actually wrong; how likely is it that the people commenting and voting have absolutely no idea what the fuck they're talking about? We've all seen the video, and your eyes can't lie.
fendtrian@reddit
Lies even 6.5x25 CBJ APDS can penetrate this guy plus yo mama and yo Fatha and another BTR
Oratian@reddit
Schematics, you can see the rollers on the bottom left diagram
https://www.kampfgruppe144.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=7736
Plump_Apparatus@reddit
To be pedantic, they're not "rollers". They chain driven tires connected through a clutch that can be raised and lowered. Modernized BRDM-2s usually have them removed and a side door(s) installed.
Oratian@reddit
More info is always appreciated, especially in a nerd sanctuary like this one!
Maxxonry_Prime@reddit
So you're saying the the 7N22 AP can't even get through the not-armor?
TheRtHonLaqueesha@reddit
Looks like they shot the sponsons; that said the BRDM is a light-skinned vehicle. Pretty much every Soviet APC can be killed with 12.7mm.
Ax3lRiv@reddit
lol, ruskies are trying so hard to copy the 6.8mm because of this.
BaronSimo@reddit
Do yall think that BRDM was burned out and thus had a fucked up heat treat? Also wild that 7N22 has a pressure of 42,061 psi (according to Wikipedia so who knows if that’s right) makes you wonder if the high pressure 62,000 psi of m855A1 was necessary.
OEFdeathblossom@reddit
No, burned out armor rusts really quickly- even in the desert.
strider_sifurowuh@reddit
the BRDM is also just equipped with armor that is kind of crap
Plump_Apparatus@reddit
No. Apart from the fresh paint it still has the chain-driven belly wheels that are intact. I wouldn't call any spot in the well armored, much less they're hitting the plate that covers the belly wheels and the associated drive mechanism. I'd have to dig through some PDFs but that is probably only 2-3mm of steel.
MarshallKrivatach@reddit
I mean yeah, just take a look at how much cleaner the 855a1 holes are, those rounds could penetrate a good bit more than that BDRM side. Meanwhile 3 of the 7N22 rounds failed to penetrate and only 2 went through cleanly.
That extra 20k PSI is putting in a lot of extra power and work.
ThorsonMM@reddit
Maybe the BRDM just has crap armor?
Plump_Apparatus@reddit
Eh, maybe?
The BRDM-2 is an armed recon vehicle. It has a 7mm of steel plate on the sides, as in a bit over a 1/4 of an inch.
It has splinter and light arms protection. The uparmoured humvee line, the M1113 series, is significantly better protected. The BRDM-2 is not a well protected vehicle, at all.
ThorsonMM@reddit
Considering how the quality of Russian equipment has been laid bare with the conflict in the Ukraine, maybe this BRDM was made of mostly mild steel and has little to no armor at all.
I'd be more convinced if they were poking holes in a piece of AR500 and not some piece of Russian equipment, which are all suspect at this point.
ColonelCubbage@reddit
Based on what? More sweeping conjecture? Maybe next we can magically divine the metallurgical issues of F-4 Phantom airframes using M193 powder quality as a baseline, since this is essentially what you are doing here.
Plump_Apparatus@reddit
Every BRDM-2 is made with pretty much no armor at all. It's an armed recon vehicle. Not a tank, it's designed to resist shell splinters and small arms fire. On top of that they're shooting over the plating that covers up the belly wheels, drive, and actuators which is somewhere around 3-5mm of steel.
Legacy Soviet equipment is the reason why Ukraine has survived, hardware wise. The Soviets were literally the innovators of tank advancement through the 1970s.
Majestic-Maybe-7389@reddit
Damn.
No-Ground-6363@reddit
Where they shot has no amor its just mild steel. Its a empty spare for 2 extra wheel behind the plates and its a amphibiuos scout car and some part a hollow and used as floats. And the inner layer is armoured
False-God@reddit
Are these the correct equivalents? Or would the Russian equivalent of M855A1 be the 7N39 Igolnik?
I’m not super familiar with rifle bullet types but have heard folks bandy around the Igolnik when talking about top performance Russian ammo.
kilojoulepersecond@reddit
7N24 and the newer 7N39 are specialist tungsten dedicated AP rounds that are expensive and not super widely issued the way EPR is -- they're more comparable to M995. Broadly speaking, for their respective intermediate calibers, the US has focused its development on more effective general purpose rounds, while Russia has developed more and more advanced AP rounds.
BoS_Vlad@reddit
Which rifle will wind up having the least time in service the M14 or the M7?
AutoModerator@reddit
Understand the rules
Check the sidebar. It's full of resources to help you.
Not everyone is an expert such as yourself; be considerate.
No Spam. No Memes.
No political posts. Save that for /r/progun or /r/politics.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.