People need to stop confusing e-motos with e-bikes
Posted by Zestyclose-Pop-7130@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 171 comments
I’m beyond fed up with people blaming “e-bikes” for stuff that clearly involves e-motos causing reckless and unsafe behavior
I don’t have anything against e-motos themselves the issue is the way a lot of them are being ridden. Around me, there are constant complaints on Nextdoor and even 911 calls about kids riding unregistered bikes, doing wheelies and stunts on 40–45 mph roads, no plates, no helmets, etc.
Every single time, people jump straight to “kids on e-bikes are the problem.”
That’s just wrong.
Actual e-bikes (the legal ones) are limited, regulated, and not built for that kind of riding in traffic. What people are seeing are electric dirt bikes / e-motos — totally different category.
I’ve tried explaining the difference in my local groups, but people don’t want to hear it. They just double down, call everything an e-bike, and move on. Some have even told others to block me like I’m defending the behavior, which I’m not.
-fat-matt-@reddit
CA SB 1167 Blakespear
Spiritual_Builder240@reddit
Yeah it doesn’t help that big YouTubers insist on calling them e-bikes too knowing damn well there is a difference
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
There isn't a legal difference, "e-bike" isn't a term actually defined in law. The problem is this sub, and many other niche communities, consider "e-bike"/"ebike" to mean "electric bicycle", but the general public sees it as "electric bike", and the general public understands "bike" to cover everything from bicycles to harleys depending on context; it makes no sense to expect that adding an 'e' somehow alters 'bike' too.
Spiritual_Builder240@reddit
Pedantry
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
You are the one asking YouTubers to align to your very specific niche community's word meanings rather than what the general public thinks. You are the pedant.
Spiritual_Builder240@reddit
No dude, you’re the one saying we need legal definitions before people who know better start acknowledging reality. I’m pointing out how YouTubers call them e-bikes knowing they are dirt bikes, knowing the controversy, knowing what an actual ebike is. That isn’t pedantry.
You saying we need laws on books before companies and influencers stop being negative influences on young kids and unknowing parents is pedantic.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
The law has "electric bicycle" and "electrically-assisted bicycle". The general public has "e-bike", which can include electric dirt bikes. Niche communities like this have a different "e-bike" aligned with legal definitions like "electric bicycle", and then insist the general public's use of "e-bike" is wrong because it covers other things too, and that YTers should not align with the general public's use.
If there were laws that said "e-bike", at least your pedantry would have a legal basis. Without that, it's just raw pedantry.
LittleHornetPhil@reddit
I mean I commute every day on a Wired, but I also treat it like an ICE motorcycle, ride it on the road in traffic lanes, and follow traffic laws — installed turn signals and a horn as well.
I do like having the ability to occasionally take it on bike paths by pedaling but I also ride very differently there.
sanjosethrower@reddit
Your bike is registered for use on the roads? If no, you are not following all traffic laws. I’m betting the answer is no as that would draw attention to you when you are almost certainly violating the law by riding your bike on paths.
LittleHornetPhil@reddit
I pedal on paths so no, I’m not violating the law.
sanjosethrower@reddit
It would be an unusual local jurisdiction that allows motor vehicles on multi-use paths.
TheBoldNorthern@reddit
Totally agree, too bad the mods here don't. It's almost as if ebikes and emotos should be different subs or something..
sckuzzle@reddit
Yea, how can we expect the public to understand the difference when even this sub treats them as the same.
It's long past time to ban emotos from the ebikes sub.
thirtynation@reddit
Preposterous that you would think this subreddit has any influence on or is a reflection of the greater public writ large. This subreddit is 15 years old and has always been inclusive of all sorts of electric vehicles. There is absolutely no reason to change that policy whatsoever.
The class system in the United States already differentiates between ebikes and emotos.
If you are having an enforcement problem in your local area then work on that LOCALLY. Trying to rearrange the furniture of someone else's house, by that I mean requesting the changing the content guidelines of someone else's subreddit, is asinine. Changing the content of this subreddit only stands to make your feelings not get hurt just by seeing an emoto and WILL NOT result in any material change in the physical world what so ever. That would be you over inflating the influence of this subreddit.
Mr_Midwestern@reddit
AFAIK there isn’t a sub dedicated to what would be considered the “conventional” ebike (involving functional pedals for supplemental propulsion within typical bicycle speeds).
Personally I appreciate Reddit for its niche subreddits where you can seek out first hand knowledge/experiences from the masses about certain topics or products. When a sub like this becomes increasingly broad, especially when more specific subs exist, I personally find it tends to take away from the conversation.
IMHO it’s less about “gate keeping”, and more about staying true to what the majority of members believe the subreddit’s primary topic actually is.
OutboardTips@reddit
r/emoto is real
Spiritual_Builder240@reddit
Yeah but people still come here asking questions about e motos
sparhawk817@reddit
And the rules of the subreddit support that! As of right now, they're not just allowed, but encouraged to post and comment here.
Maybe contact your legislature or local news agencies about the difference, and how word choice impacts societal shifts, because that's going to do more than anything on Reddit will, and it matters, unlike the opinions of a reddit mod.
Spiritual_Builder240@reddit
Idc that much bro i actually like emotos. Im just responding to another comment
sparhawk817@reddit
I like em too, I mean, arguably I have one even though it's only class 3, but I would much rather be able to register it as a moped legally, than wait for the day a cop who doesn't understand the law makes me late for work and impounds it until I can prove it's legally a bicycle still.
I don't really think we need literal children on emotos though. Legally it's prohibited in my area to ride an Ebike of any variety under the age of 16, but that doesn't stop anyone, and half of the emotos are electric motorcycles or dirt bikes legally, not a class 3 with a moped style frame, and thats definitely an over 16 activity, but again, doesn't stop anyone.
I just know that the parents buying these toys etc aren't on reddit, reading this thread. OP is preaching to the choir here.
Spiritual_Builder240@reddit
I too ride a class 3. I actually just tell people it’s a moped because it basically is.
I agree 100%
OutboardTips@reddit
Yep generally parents and teenagers seem to not understand the difference at all
Mr_Midwestern@reddit
I’m honestly surprised this hasn’t become moderated.
Especially when someone comes here asking for information about something that is clearly a dirt bike, completely lacking the ability to be manually peddled. It would be nice to see this sub become dedicated to the conventional ebike and direct surron/telaria/eride users to r/emoto
Wants-NotNeeds@reddit
What’s stopping this sub from clarifying the definition of e-bike to mean bikes without throttles? Or, at least throttle bikes that a meet (and can’t readily exceed) the 20mph Class 2 designation. Enough of the e-moto crowd trying to defend their right to the sub when it’s clear as day they aren’t bikes meant for pedaling. And, no a cadence sensor does not make you a cyclist. You ghost pedaling for a half a block when you need to stretch your legs out does not convince anyone you’re riding a bicycle.
sckuzzle@reddit
Mods that like emotos and want them to be treated as ebikes.
thirtynation@reddit
You don't know that the mods want emotos treated like ebikes at all. That's a baseless assumption.
This has ALWAYS been a subreddit that has been inclusive of all kinds of electric vehicles, because it's FUN to consume content about all kinds of vehicles. The specific legality of specific vehicles in specific locations is not really relevant beyond this very simple focus.
sckuzzle@reddit
I find it particularly ironic that you assume (baselessly) that this is a baseless assumption, and not something that the mods have come out and said. But I can tell you're just here because you want to attack anyone suggesting the ebikes subreddit be for ebikes, so I won't waste my time trying to convince you.
thirtynation@reddit
The ebike subreddit is for ebikes.
stormdelta@reddit
You at least bothered to acknowledge that class 2 ebikes are already legal in most US states I guess, but the derision for anyone that doesn't ride a bicycle for fitness/recreation is practically dripping from every other sentence in your post.
The current rules are in part to guard against exactly this kind of pretentious gatekeeping.
sanjosethrower@reddit
Says the person that rides an unregistered motor vehicle on public roads.
stormdelta@reddit
Irrelevant to the point I'm making.
And if you're stalking my user tag that much than you also know full well that it doesn't go any faster or have any more torque than a class 3 mid-drive, and that it looks/rides/handles like a bicycle.
TheBoldNorthern@reddit
I'm guessing the mods 1: don't want to deal with the drama of banning people or the flak they'd get for the rule change. 2: they don't want to become less powerful mods and lose their #5 spot in 'Bikes & Cycling' subreddits from exodus of users.
i__hate__you__people@reddit
I get downvoted into oblivion everytime I point that out here. Or that e-motos are really just e-mopeds or e-motorcycles or e-motorcross, and anyone pretending otherwise is breaking the law and causing endless regulations on us regular ebike users.
I do have one of those emotos (Onyx RCR) in addition to my 2 actual e-bikes, but I treat the Onyx as a legal moped and licensed it as such. I’m required to have a motorcycle license for it in my state, and I do. I’ve taken motorcycle training and passed the written and riding exams. All these people illegally riding emotos have not.
Spiritual_Builder240@reddit
E motos aren’t even e-mopeds. Most of them don’t even have pedals. They’re just flat out dirt bikes
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
You're not in agreement with half the people on here who complain about "emotos". A lot of them think anything with a throttle should be called an emoto.
Most of them don't understand what mopeds are, and think "moped" is just a low-power motorcycle without pedals...
Spiritual_Builder240@reddit
That’s fine, I’m just pointing out calling them mopeds isn’t even accurate
i__hate__you__people@reddit
Yeah, that’s why I listed all 3 types. I’m not saying all emotos are just e-mopeds, quite the opposite. I’m saying that all emotos fall into one of those 3 categories:
None of those things are e-bikes, though. And THAT is the confusion in the legislature and even within this subreddit.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
The problem is all of them are 'bikes' (you can insist otherwise, but you aren't the majority of English speakers), so saying they aren't 'ebikes' sounds absurd to the common person, and even if you accomplished it...great, but New Jersey politicians decided Class 1 and Class 2 ebikes need a license solely because kids were dying on Class 1 and Class 2 ebikes (all by being run over by cars, none due to crashing into things), not because of confusion, they specifically decided that the best way to prevent kids run over by cars was to effectively prevent kids from any practical means of riding a bike in the roads.
burieddeepbetween@reddit
Oh look, it's this post again.
chapstic593@reddit
The media needs to stop confusing emotos with ebikes. Its almost a conspiracy to get them ban because regulators and law makers don't know the difference.
times_zero@reddit
Yup.
That's my biggest concern with emotos, especially irresponsible, and illegal emoto riders. They're being used an a excuse to push for crackdowns on legal ebikes, which is the last we need to do to reduce the amount of private cars in the world. The existing laws stating that emotos need to be registered/licensed like ICE motorcycles need to be more heavily enforced. Hell, legally fine/punish more of these brain-dead parents who are giving their under-aged kids emotos if that's what it takes, but either way, emotos, and ebikes should NOT be confused by the media let alone legally.
FledglingNonCon@reddit
The issue is that e-motos "don't exist" according to our laws in the US. There is no alternative legal place for them to land. Until policymakers provide a pathway for manufacturers to build them and for how they are regulated and operated they will all still be "e-bikes" because that's the only legit pathway for their existence.
demon_twink_gockie@reddit
Of course there is. They're electric motorcycles/mopeds, depending on speed and wattage. How would the motor being ICE or electric change anything? It doesn't lol.
stormdelta@reddit
Electric motorcycles, yes.
Mopeds basically don't exist in the US in a practical form due to archaic laws, whether gas or electric, and that's part of the problem.
demon_twink_gockie@reddit
They exist where I live and in many other states. The issue is more that it's dependant on what state you're in and not all have that classification.
stormdelta@reddit
From what I've seen, the biggest issue that many moped laws are either specific to to gas-powered mopeds, and often specify a max speed of 30mph which is not fast enough to safely use in most US cities since many city roads are 35mph+. IMO it should be updated to allow up to 40mph, with faster speeds still classified as motorcycles.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
Allowing up to 40mph on a bike without a license would be absurd. It is BY FAR saner to stop having 35+mph speed limits on city roads.
Unfortunately all of this would threaten the car industry, so they will fight tooth and nail.
stormdelta@reddit
I never said without a license, mopeds should still require a lesser license separate from a driver's license. A lot of the EU rules don't make sense in the US, but graduated licensing does and should be implemented more broadly. Some states already work this way.
I don't disagree but the social and political capital to change that doesn't exist here.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
My state doesn't require a license for mopeds, and them not requiring a license is basically the only reason anyone would ever use one over a regular motorcycle.
The situation most states have, where you need to get a license for a moped, just kills the moped industry. It's why people equate the New Jersey rules (license for any ebike) to a ban on ebikes: licenseless vehicles are fundamentally huge for people who are in their teens, very poor, or minorly disabled.
demon_twink_gockie@reddit
Typically in states with that, you still need at least a learner's permit.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
Not here.
demon_twink_gockie@reddit
Eh, fair. Though I've seen a few that do specify what wattage they consider equivalent to a ICE moped for classification purposes. Though granted, still the 30/35MPH restriction. Though where I live, at least, a moped can still use the bicycle lane
FledglingNonCon@reddit
In most cases the wattage and speed isn't much higher than a class 3 ebike, which is why almost no "e-moto" manufacturers bother.
rewt127@reddit
They do exist though lol.
What is the difference between a surron and a KX250? The fuel. That is it. They are both off-road vehicles. They can be registered as such and get fork stickers.
And then other E-motos like the Damon Hypersport are no different than a Ninja-1000SX.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
The fuel matters greatly to California laws. It's all but impossible to register an electric motorcycle there because nobody thought to update the laws, and so the DMV will sometimes say you need an emissions sticker on your emission-less bike, but also provide no process to get such a sticker because it has no engine.
Now, there is a way around this, by registering it in my state under an LLC you make here (all of which can be done remotely), then leasing it to yourself, but that's kind of a lucky accident as a thing that exists, and people feel weird doing it because it's a way to avoid taxes (in itself, avoiding the registration taxes is legal, but you want to make sure you don't do any other trickery like dodge sales tax by pretending it's being used in my state and not yours, or it's illegal tax evasion).
rewt127@reddit
They do exist though lol.
What is the difference between a surron and a KX250? The fuel. That is it. They are both off-road vehicles. They can be registered as such and get fork stickers.
And then other E-motos like the Damon Hypersport are no different than a Ninja-1000SX.
migdol@reddit
Oregon recently passed laws to classify e-bikes up to level 3 pedal-assist only (max 28 mph). Anything with a throttle that goes over 28 mph no longer qualifies.
I'm not sure where these emotos land today for Oregon, but this chart makes me think they could fall into moped or motorcycle territory: https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Forms/DMV/6619.pdf
ToraNoOkami@reddit
But for the average person, it’s not obvious
clueing_4looks@reddit
Multiple states are looking at legislation to differentiate the two before they become NJ and true e-bikes become banned.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
NJ already differentiated the two, and went after "true" ebikes on purpose even after having done so a while. The legislators who went for the law SPECIFICALLY cited the cases of kids/teens on ebikes dying that made them want licensing for any ebike...and all such cases were Class 1/2 ebikes, and the kids being run over by cars.
To make clear, the NJ legislators knew the difference between even the ebike classes, and they just wanted it to be illegal for a kid to be on the road in a bike without a license. If kids started riding regular bicycles again, these legislators, for sure, would make regular bicycles also require a license.
It's the exact same things that happened with mopeds 45 years ago. Kids died in the streets on legal mopeds by being hit by cars, so legislators made it illegal to ride them without licenses in almost all states, preventing political pressure to make roads safer, and killing the moped industry.
clueing_4looks@reddit
Right. There is talk in advocacy circles about if regulations for Class 3 e-bikes, such as helmet or age limits, would keep other states from going after all e-bikes like NJ. Requiring licensing, insurance, etc. would be detrimental to accessibility.
Not weighing in either way on the added restrictions otherwise, just sharing what I’ve heard.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
That's absolutely fucking hilarious to hear, because guess what? New Jersey DID THAT! With their 2019 bill, they made Class 3 require licensing, registration, insurance, and helmets. They even required helmets for ALL ebikes.
How in the fuck would it stop other states, from doing what NJ did in 2026, to do what NJ did in 2019? You may've heard from people who are totally clueless.
dougmc@reddit
No additional legislation is required -- as far as I know, every state has the appropriate legislation in place already.
All they need to do is get the police to enforce the laws that already exist.
Now, in theory the police could buy dynometers and such and measure power output and such, but they don't even need to do that -- just looking at their speed, noting if they're going down a hill, noting if they're pedalling, noting if they even have pedals and noting if they have a license plate is enough for them to identify most of the people breaking the law.
So far, the additional legislation that I have seen doesn't even address the real problem at all, and that is lack of enforcement.
BoringBob84@reddit
That depends on the state. Instead of just banning e-motos outright, I would prefer changes to the laws that would allow owners of e-motos to register them as mopeds or as motorcycles (with an inspection and any necessary upgrades in lieu of a Federal VIN), so that they can ride them legally on public roads.
dougmc@reddit
You're in luck! That legislation generally already exists.
I mean, every single custom-made motorcycle that wasn't built from an existing motorcycle had to go through this process, and so the process has been in place for decades.
I can't speak for every state, but in Texas you'd probably start here.
BoringBob84@reddit
Thank you for the link. Reading it, I was still confused about the requirement for a VIN. E-motos generally don't have a VIN because they are not tested to be compliant with all federal motor vehicle safety standards.
And I am not sure if Texas would consider an e-moto as an "assembled vehicle." Maybe they would if you added a brake light, mirror, horn, etc. to make it street legal.
The law is similar where I live (US-WA), but I have never seen a licensed e-moto. It is something that I would consider to have a little motorcycle to run errands on.
thephotoman@reddit
When you use the bonded title, you get a UIN for the vehicle that functions like a VIN.
Usually, in order to make an emoto into something street legal, you’ll have to make some modifications to it, mostly to add safety and driving features that dirt bikes tend not to include (turn signals, side mirrors, that kind of thing).
BoringBob84@reddit
Interesting. Thanks for the tips!
dougmc@reddit
Yeah, I've never been through the procedure. But I know it exists.
If a VIN is required, as a part of the procedure it'll get assigned -- probably as a part of the titling process.
Electric motorcycles are probably more common than you realize, but unless you look at them carefully they just look like ICE-powered motorcycles. And unless you buy something that's meant for off-roading (like a Surron), it's probably already street legal, has a VIN, etc.
BoringBob84@reddit
That is what I am considering. I already have a larger motorcycle.
thephotoman@reddit
Laws pertaining to making a non-street legal vehicle into a street legal vehicle exist in all 50 states. That happened a long time ago because of moped conversions (turning a regular bicycle into a moped or motorcycle by adding a gas motor) being a thing.
The problem is that in most states, you need a Bill of Sale from the original retail seller, or you need to go through the bonded title process to create a chain of ownership that will require you to set aside 150% of the vehicle’s title (which will be returned when you convert the bonded title to a regular title) plus a premium paid to the surety company that issues the bond (usually somewhere between 10% and 15% of the bond value). Once you have that bill of sale or a bonded title, you can get a UIN that will function as a VIN. This is, obviously, an expensive and laborious process.
clueing_4looks@reddit
Several states have codified the three tier classification, but not all have. Some states are also looking at increased legislation (such as minimum age and/or helmet requirements for Class 3 e-bikes).
Before enforcement you have to have education as well. When there's in-fighting between even advocates who can't agree on definitions or regulations, there's no way to expect cops to understand without a lot of pre-work.
dougmc@reddit
You don't even need the three-tier classification -- it's useful, but not essential.
For example, Texas does have the three-tier classification, but it barely uses it -- it requires that the class be given by a sticker on the bike, that class 3 ebikes have a speedometer, and that's it.
Instead, it's the 664.001 (4) that matters --
... if you fit that, you're good, mostly regulated like a meat-powered bicycle. If you dont' fit that, you've got a motorcycle or a moped or something else, and you have all the requirements (insurance, registration, license that come with that.
Well, you do have to make sure the cops know the gist of the laws. Beyond that, education is strictly optional -- the police enforcing the law will get the idea across, and the kids doing wheelies at 50 mph in residential areas already know they're doing something wrong, and the tickets they're given will give them the specifics if they care.
If you're referring to people who can't be bothered to read the existing laws, then sure. But as far as I know, all the states already have the appropriate definitions and regulations in place, so there's not really anything to agree upon because it's already there, just go read it.
clueing_4looks@reddit
I think we might be talking past each other a bit. My original comment wasn’t really about whether additional definitions or regulations should exist, or how effective they are. It was just noting that multiple states are actively moving toward more explicit differentiation right now.
Regardless of how comprehensive current laws are in some places, there is a trend toward clarifying or tightening definitions, particularly in response to e-motos or modified e-bikes. Particularly with children. Particularly with children who's parents do not understand that what they're ordering from Amazon isn't an e-bike. That’s the piece I was trying to highlight, especially given what’s happened in places like NJ.
I spend ample free time talking about this on local and state scale, so I'm happy to leave it there, but just wanted to clarify the intent behind my original point.
dougmc@reddit
From what I've seen, the differentiation is already perfectly explicit, and what multiple states are doing is either moving the differentiation line towards the electric bicycle side or adding a third differentiation option where some or all electric bicycles have additional restrictions/requirements that don't exist now.
But I am not aware of a single state that is lacking an appropriate distinction already, and if they'd just enforce the existing laws they wouldn't need more.
But this "Somebody on a Surron passed me at 70 mph, so we need to ban class 2 and 3 e-bikes" stuff is a knee-jerk reaction at best.
DonnPT@reddit
I hope they do better than to just let "People for Bikes" sell them PAS.
clueing_4looks@reddit
From everyone I spoke with at LAB's Bike Summit, that didn't seem to be the direction most states were thinking.
TrippyDaveXB1@reddit
they're all ebikes. fuck you all.
Spiritual-Chameleon@reddit
If the e-bike industry had the money, they'd be smart to run a marketing campaign on this issue. You could even run an ad with an e-moto passing someone working hard to pedal an e-bike. But the campaign would have to reach mass markets for it to work.
Nibb31@reddit
That's what the ebike industry in Europe did, with Bosch and ebike manufacturers leading the way.
In the US, the ebike market is made of shady dropshippers and fly-by-night importers selling chinese emotos.
stormdelta@reddit
Companies like Bosch are the last I'd want championing any regulations. If they had their way none of us would even be allowed to fix our own bikes.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
We're damn close, one proposed law recently in I think California would've made it illegal to change an ebike's class, period. Like, you couldn't just relabel it, any modification outside the class it was sold in would be a crime and the bike would be destroyed.
Laserdollarz@reddit
I pass ebikes while I'm on my meat-powered pedal bike lol.
liamnajor2@reddit
Unlike a motor, legs get stronger, and don't introduce massive complexity to the almost perfect union of simplicity and function that is the pedal bike. The idiots who downvoted are just mad they spent 4-10x as much on a bike, only to get passed by their grandma.
Jesters__Dead@reddit
I overtake 90% of the lycras on my ebike
The other 10%, I don't get mad, I just think wow they must be super fit
I have noticed how angry and upset lycras on Reddit etc get about ebikes. Their egos can't take it lol
liamnajor2@reddit
The Lycras are a plague. It's always a lycra-clad moron taking the middle of the road, making the cars hate ANYONE on two wheels, as if the multi ton behemoths flying past aren't dangerous enough.
kmichael500@reddit
If you’re riding in the lane in the first place, you probably should be taking the lane…it’s much safer (obviously this is still situational depending on the road, local laws, etc)
liamnajor2@reddit
You aren't going to change my mind. My opinion is based on years of experience. The only one taking the lane should be able to go fast enough to not impede traffic. If you're too slow, ride on the outside of the lane. I'm not suggesting destroying your bike for the poor cars, I'm saying there's space for both cars and bikes on 90% of roads, and pissing off the drivers of the metal behemoths is not only a bad idea, but endangers me by association.
kmichael500@reddit
If someone is going to be pissed off that you are taking the lane they will likely be pissed that you are on a bicycle at all.
Any time I ride more to the right, cars are way more likely to pass me in an unsafe manner. If I take the lane, they are required to pass me more like they would any other vehicle. If the road conditions become safe for me to move to the right, I will do so…but that usually doesn’t happen
Even if cars don’t have an opportunity to pass me, no one is behind me for more than a few minutes. Either I end up turning on to a different road or the car does because we are going different places. And I try not to ride on roads where this even matters…but that isn’t always possible
Laserdollarz@reddit
The MAMILs on my trails probably hate me more than ebike riders.
Imagine donning skin-tight clothes, hopping on a $5k carbon fiber bike that you've been professionally fit to, and then getting passed by someone wearing nothing but shorts, a sunburn, and a backpack, on a steel 90s mtb. Makes me giggle every time.
I sometimes stop and let them pass me, but I make it clear I'm only stopped to take a smoke break.
SnowLancer616@reddit
I get passed all the time
Laserdollarz@reddit
When I'm on my ebike and I get paced by a cyclist, I always wave and thumbs up to try and communicate "I notice you going fast af, hell yea"
RoundSyrup4424@reddit
Great idea above. u/Aventon, u/VelotricEbike, how about it? It would increase sales for all reputable e-bike companies like yours?
jamesr14@reddit
This has been my issue with many of the new laws for e-bikes. Many are not necessary because most of the problems are with bikes that are already not legally considered e-bikes. If they’d enforce the current laws, the problems would stop.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
It's not feasible to enforce the current laws, end of story.
anonlite@reddit
I think it’s in part due to the name…emoto just isn’t a term ppl want to use…calling them electric dirt bikes feels more fitting
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
Not all of them are dirtbikes. There are emotos that are just like regular motorcycles but electric.
The problem is that the regular motorcycle crowd doesn't respect electric generally, and the public hardly understands that mopeds even exist, let alone that there can be electric dirt bikes or electric mopeds.
robotcoke@reddit
My take: if it has pedals SGS can be ridden like a normal bike (human powered) then it's an ebike.
If it doesn't have pedals and requires electricity, then it's an e-moto.
I don't know if that's the legal definition but it's my own opinion.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
It's very far from the legal definition because you could easily design a racing motorcycle (gas or electric) that also can be ridden like a normal bicycle. Generally the law goes off max capability, which I think to be hogwash because we're reaching the point where you could with one toggle switch go between regular bicycle and sports emoto, and if that toggle is something like physically rewiring, the law has to treat it as vehicle modification and not one specific vehicle kind, as you can always make a regular bicycle an emoto by adding components.
OutboardTips@reddit
Most kids I see with an electric bike is an e-moto, majority of adults is class 2 using throttle. Seems like the opposite of what it should be.
terraherts@reddit
Nothing wrong with throttle on class 2, those are legal for a reason, unlike the e-dirtbikes.
OutboardTips@reddit
Yep just saying what I see out and about, teenagers probably shouldn’t be going 30+ but I understand if an adult wants to do that I’m responsible and legal way.
JeremyFromKenosha@reddit
Yep. Even the government is starting to catch on. ...but not before NYC instituted a 15 mph speed limit and NJ completely screwed all eBikers...
terraherts@reddit
NYC is probably one of the few places in the US that can actually justify a 15mph limit due to high density, transit, and cycling infrastructure.
The NJ law is utter trash though.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
NJ didn't do that because of emotos, they explicitly said it was because of kids and teens killed by cars while on legal ebikes; if they can't be legally on ebikes at all, they can't be run over by cars on them, problem solved.
Hortos@reddit
I’m sick of people bitching about the behavior of a few entitled moron kids that live in their community. Some people need to get to work on their bikes and 15mph, 10 mile range, while pedaling isn’t going to cut it. You can tell who lives in Karen communities because there are a bunch of broccoli headed children on $3k toys doing wheelies around them to complain about. Nobody in real urban centers cares because they’re significantly less of an issue than poor drivers.
terraherts@reddit
This. Even the most reckless idiot on an ebike is less of a threat to other people than a mildly distracted driver.
ShawtySayWhaaat@reddit
I was here for the /r/ebikes civil war
Dirtbagdownhill@reddit
Unfortunately there are plenty of idiots on ebikes that are not emotos in any way that do stupid shit and break laws too. This is coming from someone who has been riding bikes with the meatengine for years. It's like the motor allows people to skip the learning curve of getting into riding a bike as traffic over riding as a child would. If that wasn't the case people would treat teens on surrrons the same way they'd treat teens on a 125 dirt bike, as a teen causing ruckus not out of control cyclists.
terraherts@reddit
Those people are more of a threat to themselves than other people, especially if it stops them from driving since those same people in a car are an actual menace.
Otaraka@reddit
Yea the flip side of this is people pretending all problems are emoto as an excuse, when ebike riders are an issue too.
This is coming up a lot when it comes to proposed restrictions on shared pathways here.
ShawtySayWhaaat@reddit
Man that sounds familiar... Bunch of dumbass kids are doing dumbass shit and the rest of us who are harmless in the hobby are having to pay the consequences. Youd fit right in to the car enthusiast community lol
TheShardWolf2@reddit
As someone who rides an e moto i totally agree. kids give all of us a bad rep, I’ve met a ton of people on my e moto and the amount of times I’ve told people off for riding way to fast on walking/bike paths and doing reckless shit is more than I can remember. I’m all for wheeling and having fun but there’s a time and a place for that. I personally ride my e moto like an e bike (~32kmh) and ride respectably until I get to the track or an empty road where I can stunt and jump safely without endangering others.
ChristheCourier12@reddit
Honestly getting one first shits and giggles. Getting the coswheel R19. I have an actual ebike with me though but im getting r19 just for the hell of it. Don't worry tho cuz I follow road rules and traffic lights on my regular ebike.
But I get you. There's so much confusion around it but im taking advantage of the law for now lol
EriclcirE@reddit
I mean people are rightfully angry if teenagers are doing reckless shit on an e-moto or an e-bike on public roads and sidewalks.
People need to direct their energy at lawmakers to write laws and police to enforce those laws to reign in the ridiculous and dangerous behavior.
Requiring license, insurance, visible plates on e-motos would make sense. Limiting e-bikes to certain speeds and configurations would also make sense.
Fun_Illustrator_9327@reddit
Any e-bike or emoto that can go over 18mph should require a drivers license to be able to ride on public street and paths
stormdelta@reddit
That would be ridiculous and incredibly counterproductive.
Driver's licenses are already way too watered down as it is, we need more alternatives that don't require one to make it easier to hold bad drivers accountable.
18mph is weirdly specific and isn't a cutoff used by any existing laws, which would screw over basically every current ebike owner one way or another, and is slower than many regular bike users already go
KostyaFedot@reddit
In Europe it is 25kmph top limit for no license. And it works just fine.
stormdelta@reddit
Europe has denser cities, graduated licensing, slower roads with smaller cars, far more extensive use of traffic circles and narrower roads vs the US' giant intersections, many viable forms of transit besides cars, has extensive protected cycling infrastructure, etc.
Adopting the EU rules would accomplish nothing except to make ebikes impractical and make people even more willing to use illegal bikes, and push more people back into cars that are wildly more dangerous. Particularly those people who should least be driving in the first place.
KostyaFedot@reddit
I was all over USA for work and now in EU.
No huge difference in driving. Especially in places like NYC, Boston.
I live in busy part of Europe and I'm surprised how long people go on bicycle for work and cycling isn't always ideal.
We have speed pedelecs which are 45kmph. License, insurance and plate.
Yes, lot of people are pushed to driving, but not because of licenses.
We do have winters here as well and commute is not uncommon to be one hour one way.
My weekly trip to another office is 150 km one way.
stormdelta@reddit
Those are extreme outliers compared to most of the US on the things I listed. I seriously doubt you've been to much of the midwest or central US for example.
And the issue with oversized American cars should've been pretty obvious unless the last time you were here was over a decade ago.
Most of the US doesn't even have practical laws governing actual mopeds, much less what you're talking about here, and most places will take the lazy route of continuing to treat driver's licenses as a useless one-size-fits-all approach.
The point is that the lack of alternatives leads to courts being incredibly reluctant to actually take licenses away from people who shouldn't have them, and even if they do, people often continue driving anyways because again the lack of alternatives.
Crippling alternatives like ebikes out of a misguided notion that we should follow the EU rules only makes that problem worse, and bad drivers are incredibly more dangerous than anyone on an ebike.
You have good options for using transit and cycling infrastructure at least part of the way that is rarely an option in the US outside of the densest city centers.
Dook23@reddit
That’s ridiculous as a class 1 ebike can go over 18 mph. Hell I can do that on my manual bike.
Fun_Illustrator_9327@reddit
Whatever class 2 is. Maybe 20mph?
Dook23@reddit
Are you really here arguing in a discussion about e-bikes without knowing what class 1-3 bikes are? No wonder.
Fun_Illustrator_9327@reddit
Are you really here behaving like a douchebag know-it-all because I thought the class 2 limit was 18mph instead on 20mph?
stormdelta@reddit
We already do in most US states, though I will note that the laws for mopeds specifically need updating regardless of gas/electric as right now most of them are very archaic and make legal mopeds difficult.
Most US states already follow the three class system.
Zestyclose-Pop-7130@reddit (OP)
This is already a thing in my state e-bikes have class restrictions per state law and the emotos must be registered like any other motorcycle parents just don’t do proper research before making group posts
Major-Book-8803@reddit
Totally agree, those electric mini bikes should be banned from all multi used trails
BassesNBikes@reddit
They are. And from streets, paths, and sidewalks. But "parents" keep buying them for their children, or buying them and riding like children.
snoogins355@reddit
And cops do not enforce shit where I live in MA.
stormdelta@reddit
You'd probably increase total public safety more from a small increase in enforcing basic traffic laws on cars than banning every moped in existence.
RoundSyrup4424@reddit
E-motos aren't street legal in any state in the US.
Ignorant parents don't do their homework and instead of buying their kids 500W e-bikes are buying them 5000W e-motos, yet wonder why they send thousands of kids to the hospital each year.
dougmc@reddit
If you mean "illegal E-motos", then sure, but that's a tautology.
But legal electric motorcycles certainly do exist. The distinction is that they're motorcycles that just happens to be electric, and so they've got all the required equipment (headlight, turn signals, horn, brake light, license plate, license plate light, etc.) and registration, insurance, appropriate licensing for the rider, etc.
Want a fairly typical motorcycle but electric? Harley Davison has what you want!.
Of course, most of the Surrons and the like don't have all the required bits, but they can be added and you can buy kits that have all the required gear, and at that point you just need to make sure it's probably registered, has a license plate, is insured, you have the required license, etc.
RoundSyrup4424@reddit
Absolutely correct. Thank you for the information! I've updated my post.
stormdelta@reddit
They already are, the problem is a lack of enforcement.
Strict_Second_1922@reddit
It's just reckless riders that give all emoto's a bad name. There's probably more accidents from distracted/reckless drivers then emoto but people don't care. I don't see a problem as long as your riding safe within speed limits its putting others in danger that's a problem. I don't want more regulations just want the current ones enforced.
Epledryyk@reddit
yeah, honestly I'd way rather have a whole city of kids on unregistered e-dirtbikes than having them drive cars?
Strict_Second_1922@reddit
Used to have to register bicycles back in the day too, should do those too. I have seen cyclist blow through stop signs, ignore trail speed. Ride or drive should obey the road laws but lets pick on the less the 1% that are the fault. I would rather get hit with a unregistered dirt bike then a cop in pursuit.
stormdelta@reddit
This. The three class system is fairly reasonable for the most part.
The only new rules I'd like to see is updating existing rules for mopeds to cover electric mopeds and a more practical speed limit to make them easier to be sold legally, which would also lower demand for illegal e-mopeds.
Making non-car transit more accessible is critical for public safety - even the most reckless idiot on an e-bike is less of a threat to other people than a mildly distracted driver, and if the only viable transit is cars then it becomes almost impossible to take people's driving privileges away from them.
insuffcient_dopamine@reddit
It’s not just here, all over. It’s also not just emotos. Legislation is failing to keep up with technology. How fast can a 1 wheel go? Or an electric skateboard? One of those Chinese stand up scooters does 50mph.
We have people in office that don’t know what an e-bike is, writing and passing legislation on it.
I have an emoto and I use it like one. I got it rather than a dedicated dirt bike. People do use these legitimately and follow rules so they don’t stick out or… cause a problem.
I have ridden my to a few destinations, it I keep it below 30 and have all the lights and mirrors.
We have a HUGE problem with parents buying kids things that were to mature for them. The parents have no idea they are endangering their kid. My emoto also says no one under 16. I see kids that can’t even sit over bikes like that on them.
It’s the difference between cycling to work and being a part of street takeover. Some people can’t make good decisions.
Dook23@reddit
I am liking you and have a “bike” that goes over 28 mph and ride it on trails and streets. Though I am not ignorant enough to think mine is technically legal. But I also know the law in my area are way way more concerned on how you ride then what you ride.
Social media and most importantly the lack or parental discipline is way more of the issue. Growing up I was riding dirt bikes by like the age of 8. But I did it off road, wearing the proper safety gear, and was always under adult supervision. My mom’s entire side of the family were all competitive racers, from stock car, to motorcycles, even including go karts. They all knew how to ride and were pros and I grew up with them teaching me how to ride properly and when and where to ride. By the time I was around 13 I think I was riding a moped that would go about 25 on my own with my parents blessings so I could ride to my friends house or wherever because they knew I would ride respectfully and safely as well as that I knew if I didn’t wear my safety gear I would lose my riding privileges which I mever wanted to happen. We often rode on racing locations with jumps and everything and I was doing all of it.
josh101911@reddit
Where I live they are trying to push for car licences, age restrictions and 10km/h on shared paths which 90% of bikeways are here. Even if your e bike is pedal assist. I'm not medically fit to hold a licence and this is going to fuck me and a lot of other people over.
https://youtu.be/Aff5Ba_mW-M?si=hpCJszd74gO8ts0i
Here is a video about the new laws.
KostyaFedot@reddit
"Bike" is term in use for motorcycles and bicycles.
Another side of unfairness is with legal e-bikes been certified, real warranty and service against of cheap import of China made, which goes fast and without real effort.
Like Aventon vs Alibaba .
SilentIyAwake@reddit
After having a kid zoom past me maybe 2-3 feet away going 40mph last week, I agree.
LopsidedGiraffe@reddit
Are you in Australia? Its beyond ridiculous in Queensland, Australia where recommended laws include limiting e cyclists to 10km/hr on all shared paths!
To add context, in Qld it is legal to ride a bike on a footpath and lots of our cycle paths are shared with pedestrians.
The proposed laws are absurd and discriminatory against the young (under 16 not allowed at all), the elderly, the disabled (you must have a valid driver's licence or L licence so if not medically able to drive a car you will not be allowed to ride an e bike) and the chronically ill.
The current law states that the e bike motor must cut out at 25km/hr, which is perfectly reasonable. They dont enforce the law adequately though, by allowing parents to buy their 14 yo a modified e bike that can go 50km/hr.
decimatemeinballbag@reddit
It's like the gun control debate.
People wildly throwing around the terms " fully automatic"
"Assault rifle "
I've even seen people be like he has a semi automatic weapon !!!!
Breh most guns are semi auto
New-Pack4657@reddit
Here in the Netherlands, "fatbikes" are a major problem. Bike accidents have skyrocketed, with mostly underage casualties. Fatal casualties are constantly on the news.
Fatbikes are e-motos sold as "legal" e-bikes with 250 watts, 25 km/h and 6 km/h throttle (conform the EU regulations). But you can easily delimit the bikes and turn on the throttle. Most models hit about 50 km/h.
The newest model has a 1500 watt motor ("legally limited to 250 watts") and hits 60 km/h when delimited.
They are dirt cheap, with the most popular models being available for € 799. The GT2000 goes for € 1299.
Local authorities are starting to ban them in certain places. The current cabinet is planning on nationwide regulation.
Razrgrrl@reddit
Totally agree and it’s so infuriating, honestly. Like if people want to put their children on a freaking moped I guess?! But TBH it’s a dangerous thing to do. Then folks start talking about it like the already regulated and safe class 1,2,3 e-bikes are the issue. It’s a whole other beast!
Those giant fat tire loud AF mini motorcycles with no license no registration no driving experience or training about riding in traffic— that’s the issue!
Not middle aged commuters who need some assistance. Absolutely absurd. I love how e-bikes make cycling more accessible. Absolutely hate the unregulated not street legal miniature motorcycles ridden by literal children are endangering everyone.
stormdelta@reddit
I'm so tired of these obvious AI bots ruining reddit
Big_footed_hobbit@reddit
Ppl just need an excuse to make them all illegal, so you are forced to buy a car.
This is done on purpose.
DeadHeadDaddio@reddit
Its not done on purpose. You idiots sit here day after day demanding the government to regulate these things. But you forget how the government works so you cry when you don't like how they regulate. Its literally the bicycle meme.
RoundSyrup4424@reddit
You are correct.
And you will get downvoted by many here for speaking the truth.
Keep spreading the word about the difference!
ImprovementDues@reddit
I have put over 15 thousand km on a 350w e bike with a throttle says its 500w max? Anyways it's well within regs and has mostly replaced my car. I agree with you 100%
RoundSyrup4424@reddit
Wonderful! Thats:
Win. Win. Win.
youngLupe@reddit
The problem is with the ebike companies selling electric motorcycles as bicycles to skirt around the rules. People justify it to themselves the same way. You're not buying your kit a motorcycle you're buying them an electric bicycle. You can ride the trail and bike lane with your ebikes that can easily hit 30+ mph. It's a bike not a motorcycle, the company called it an e bike so they're not lying are they?
stormdelta@reddit
No, the actual loophole most of these are using is that they're legal to use offroad and on private property - same as gas powered dirtbikes.
The problem is that people then take these on public roads and it isn't enforced.
yeffyonson@reddit
Who cares. Just ride your bike and enjoy.
MaxTrixLe@reddit
Well it’s gonna be hard to ride our bikes and enjoy it when all electric bikes become banned or start requiring insurance and registration
Ok-Carpenter-8455@reddit
As someone who works in Law Enforcement.. Even if this happens it's going next to no enforcement of this.
We only care when we have to. Otherwise... don't ride like an idiot and you're fine.
stormdelta@reddit
Lack of enforcement doesn't mean regular people don't get screwed, and police will use laws like this "selectively" to harass people they don't like.
MaxTrixLe@reddit
They’ll start enforcing it when the lobbying becomes more intense. The oil industry does not like competition.
Ok-Carpenter-8455@reddit
Wrong.
heywoodidaho@reddit
All ready a thing in N.J. and north east states take "stupid" lessons from each other so insur and reg will be coming to N.Y, Mass and Con in short order.
It will fix nothing of course.
MGEezy89@reddit
Everyone will care when they try to get rid of them all.
stormdelta@reddit
From the other end, it doesn't help that we get pretentious pricks in here all the time trying to act like class 2/3 bikes are somehow "e-motos" just because they don't like that class 2/3 are legal.
Terrible-Knowledge29@reddit
Yup these emotos are ruining it for everyone. In Mesa Arizona they just passed a law restricting e-bikes because of all the emotos.
snoogins355@reddit
I wish I had had an e-bike when I was at ASU. It probably would have been stolen though. Bike theft was bad near campus
RoundSyrup4424@reddit
Exactly! Spread the word about the difference.
RoundSyrup4424@reddit
Just like people call motorcycles "bikes", they call e-motos "e-bikes"... which would NORMALLY be fine, BUT, since many kids are aggressively and dangerously riding e-motos on streets, and the press called them e-bikes, ignorant politicans are passing misguided laws against e-bikes, punishing the wrong group of riders, which doesn't nothing to help with the already-not-street-legal e-moto problems. The solution? Every time you see this, comment about it so people can learn the difference.
EriclcirE@reddit
I mean people are rightfully angry if teenagers are doing reckless shit on an e-moto or an e-bike on public roads and sidewalks.
People need to direct their energy at lawmakers to write laws and police to enforce those laws to reign in the ridiculous and dangerous behavior.
Requiring license, insurance, visible plates on e-motos would make sense. Limiting e-bikes to certain speeds and configurations would also make sense.
Oakland-homebrewer@reddit
And to go one more, it is not the bike/moto.
It is the rider being irresponsible and dangerous. Which I'm sure there are already rules against.