Why are parakeets classed as a Invasive species but pigeons aren’t?

Posted by Mrmalak1001@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 33 comments

Hopefully a slightly more light hearted and non political topic than the usual

So as most Londoners are aware we have tons of parakeets in London ( beautiful birds) and they now seem to thrive however there is lots of debate about whether they need to be culled as they historically aren’t native to this country and are believed to be descended from escaped pets.

However isn’t this exactly the same situation with pigeons? Aren’t all city pigeons basically descended from homing pigeons? Surely it’s hypocritical to suggest culling parakeets when pigeons are just as invasive technically?

Also just to clarify I am anti culling both species ( and all others, apart from mosquitos becuase they are c**** lol )

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Quiet_surprise79@reddit

This whole thread is a mess. We have 5 native species of pigeon: wood pigeon, rock dove, collared dove, stock dove and the migratory turtle dove.

Feral pigeons are a subspecies of rock dove. While technically the species is native, the subspecies technically isn't native. They come from domestic pigeons and can be classed as a subspecies because the genetics have been altered through breeding.

There is an argument that they've displaced "pure" rock doves, which are now rare and are only found in certain coastal areas and/or islands around Ireland and Scotland, I believe. Hybridisation has taken place across the mainland.

From the post, you seem to be specifically referring to feral pigeons. So you are technically right that they're non-native, but everyone claiming "pigeons" are native isn't being accurate, as there are species of pigeons that aren't native. Anyone claiming "rock doves" have been introduced is also incorrect. Feral pigeons were introduced. Rock doves are native.

The argument for them being invasive is more difficult because although they're well-suited to built up areas due to being from domesticated stock, and therefore don't have the same shyness as pure rock doves, they are still the same species. So the animal that They're displacing is also the animal they are, kind of. They're not impacting other native species in the same way that ring-necked parakeets do.

Feral pigeons are currently killed quite regularly, but at this point, eradication would be very difficult (approx 5 million in the wild) and it's unlikely that the shy rock dove would benefit too much, although I can't say that with any certainty of course. We can see the impact of ring-necked parakeets and it'll only increase as the population continues to expand. It's currently believed to be at around 30,000 birds. Way more manageable to control than 5 million, although still a challenge.

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Mrmalak1001@reddit (OP)

Great answer.

Apologies , I should have clarified in my original post I was talking about the city feral pigeons rather than the wood pigeons etc that are seen in the leafy suburbs which I know are native ( which again was a mistake on my part) but your explanation does make complete sense. My personal belief is that we don’t have to cull any species of bird , pigeon , parakeet or otherwise , however I do understand that I’m coming at that point from a emotional perspective rather than a “ rational “ one.

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Grouchy-Handle-6031@reddit

Both parakeets and pigeons (rock doves) are introduced species. The invasive/non-invasive argument is subjective.

The term "invasive" is poorly defined and often very subjective

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasive_species

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Quiet_surprise79@reddit

Rock doves are native.

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spoo4brains@reddit

Rock Doves don't ruin native bird populations like Parakeets do.

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Grouchy-Handle-6031@reddit

Do we know that the introduction of pigeons didn't effect the populations of native species?

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ampmz@reddit

They are a native species.

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SuperDinkle406@reddit

Did get me thinking, can you eat parakeets? Taste OK?

I assume you can eat them (cooked, not raw).

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PurpleOctopus6789@reddit

I don't think you understand the definition of invasive species.

Pigeons are native to the UK and do not cause harm to the ecosystem. they don't kill other species and don't displace them. On the contrary, as birds, pigeons are often misunderstood and treated badly by both, humans and other birds. Their beaks are so fragile that they can't even harm a small parrot let alone a bigger bird. Those poor bastards can't even build proper nest yet are stupidly intelligent at the same time. Pigeons live very hard life in cities and have been called vermin and treated as such for decades yet, funnily, they do not carry diseases transmittable to humans and are one of the few bird species that don't easily get bird flu. Humans have been culling pigeons for decades, they just don't call it culling, they call it pest control. Vile.

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Mrmalak1001@reddit (OP)

Don’t get me wrong I do definitely agree with you and don’t find pigeons an invasive species at all , my question was more around surely the same can be said for parakeets who have also adapted well to our cities?

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PurpleOctopus6789@reddit

no, because tehere are conditions to be met for species to be considered invasive. Pigeons are native to this country thus cannot be considered invasive species juts like you wouldn't call a Brit living in London an immigrant.

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Grouchy-Handle-6031@reddit

Categories (in this case, invasive vs non-invasive species) are objects of human culture. We invent them. Whether a pigeon is an invasive species or not depends upon which arbitrary definition is chosen. There are no facts or observations we can point to to prove that one arbitrary definition is more correct than another.

For my money, both parakeets and pigeons are non-native and invasive. That one has been here longer than the other doesn't make much difference. Ymmv

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PurpleOctopus6789@reddit

So are countries, words you are using, etc.

This comment doesn't make you seem as clever as you wanted to appear. It's akin to a 12 year old edge lord trying to waste time during half-term.

Everything we use to categories things is something humans' invented and agreed upon. That's how it works. It applies to literally every aspect of your life. Humans need categorisation to make sense of their surroundings and life and without that, any progress in science would be impossible.

And there are no facts or observations we can point to that prove that one arbitrary definition is more correct than another.

that is horseshit and you know it.

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Grouchy-Handle-6031@reddit

Arguing with an edgelord, lol

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PurpleOctopus6789@reddit

oh my, you got me. What will I ever do?

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Grouchy-Handle-6031@reddit

Dunno. You're being weirdly obsessive about this

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PurpleOctopus6789@reddit

go on, try again, your poor attempt at reverse psychology has been noted but you failed.

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Grouchy-Handle-6031@reddit

Adapting well and changing ecosystem is part of the definition of invasive species

Pigeons have adapted well and have changed the ecosystem - their presence alone is a change

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PurpleOctopus6789@reddit

Pigeons are native to this region.

You are being purposefully obtuse and weirdly obsessive.

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Grouchy-Handle-6031@reddit

Introduced from the middle east

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Grouchy-Handle-6031@reddit

The term "invasive" is poorly defined and often very subjective

From the wikipedia entry on Invasive Species

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Tigertotz_411@reddit

Being invasive implies a) not native to the country and b) is displacing other species. Rock doves - and their feral pigeon descendents - have lived in the UK for a very long time. They used to nest on cliffs, now they use buildings.

Its reasonable to assume that parakeets, with the noise they make and ability to spread, could displace other hole-nesting bird species. But there isn't strong evidence on that yet. Most species reach a carrying capacity (that is, the limits to what their environment can support) and species parakeets might displace (like starlings or nuthatches) are also impacted by other factors, not just competition.

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Sea-Still5427@reddit

I believe London pigeons are actually rock doves.

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ActionBirbie@reddit

Pigeons are native, Surely...?

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Neither_Process_7847@reddit

They are - they're descended from native doves that were bred as domestic animals and then escaped. Not invasive at all.

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Neat-Suspect-6666@reddit

People love pigeons due to their successful involvement in World War 2.

To my knowledge, humans domesticated them during this time, then kind of let them go once they had served their purpose.

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