I just gotta vent. I hate how teenagers / young adults are favored when it comes to mathematics when the way they teach math in schools is incorrect and flawed
Posted by Direct-Bandicoot-916@reddit | learnprogramming | View on Reddit | 57 comments
The way math is taught in schools is so unbelievably flawed that the only way students can excel at math is through outside help, and even then you are browbeatened into oblivion, not allowed to do math problems in a way they don't like. It's like the system is designed to where only people coming from upper class backgrounds, or come from parents who are already well versed in math- let alone parents who are there for you at all- can thrive.
I liked math but every time I tried asking questions or going out of line in regards to trying out different methods to solve problems, they'd shut me down. I wasn't allowed to explore. I already was being bullied in school, already had shit at home to deal with, so I basically stopped caring about school all together. I really had no choice, there weren't any assistance for me.
Fast forward to adulthood, that was spent dealing with displacement at age 18 and only now, at age 24 almost 25, can I pursue my interests- one of which is programming/cybersecurity, which lead me to trying to relearn math since I've gotten so stale that I couldn't even multiply or divide numbers in an efficient manner. And upon looking into that, I realized how much I love math. Math makes up almost the entirety of computer programming. Not only that but I'm able to grasp it as fast as I did with writing/literature, which was one of the few classes I managed to get into an advanced level.
I just feel like I missed out. Like if they would've taught math correctly, I could've excelled at it. And if I excelled at math, I could've been given an opportunity in life, especially since I didn't have anyone by myself to truly support me. I'm turning 25 in 11 days and I feel like I lost out on everything. AI just makes everything worse. I'm physically disabled which sets me up at an even worse disadvantage on top of having the disadvantage of having to catch up on things people learned in high school.
Luckily I like computer science and mathematics in a way I guess I don't mind never being able to pursue it professionally, but still. It sucks, man. Fuck the public school system. I don't know how private schools teach math or if it is any better, but yeah. Idk. It's all bittersweet.
willwolf18@reddit
I get the frustration, a lot of math teaching does lean too much on memorizing steps instead of explaining why things work. But you are not behind or locked out at 25. People relearn math later all the time, often better because they actually care. Programming also does not require advanced math in most paths.
Kwith@reddit
I was helping my kid with his math a couple weeks back. They are working on quadratics and factoring right now and he was having some difficulties. I told him that if he's having issues, he can always try the quadratic formula. "What's that?"
....
He is almost done grade 10 and they have not yet done the quadratic formula. I did that in the latter half of grade 8.
ObjectiveVegetable76@reddit
Yes but that doesn't mean he wasn't taught it. It just means he didn't recall it either by that name or in this context.
Kwith@reddit
Oh no, he wasn't taught it at all. I showed him the formula and he was confused. I spoke to his teacher about it as well. She said "yea, we don't do that until next year".
FloydATC@reddit
If you truly believe "math makes up the majority of computer programming", you have yet to discover just how vast the field of computer programming is. It's about as accurate as calling bodybuilding "physics" because it involves lifting weights.
201720182019@reddit
Tbf that’s an aspect where I agree with OP. Math is unbelievably broad, programming and math are linked. The closer analogy would be like calling bodybuilding ‘science’, which I would say it is.
FloydATC@reddit
I have programmed for over 30 years and never needed anything past simple arithmetics and trigonometry. The few times I've encountered what I call "wall of math", i.e pages of what looks like the scribblings of a madman, is when I did 3D graphics as a hobbyist, but even then I always managed to hack my way through without ever learning the underlying math.
And there's nothing scientific about lifting heavy objects and then putting them down in the same place.
One_Enthusiasm8290@reddit
It all depends on how deep into it you go. If you're building your own physics engine or working a lot with low level programming you're going to need a decent background in math.
Drafin@reddit
And is that "the majority of computer programming"?
I think the point they're making is valid. Math is only tangential to programming; It's required in certain contexts, not even nearly "the majority"
GhostXW01F@reddit
Just thought I’d add my experience here. I’m just about the same age as OP and I can almost certainly tell you that math isn’t that important in programming. I was decent at math, but none of my classmates were, leading us to staying on the topic of inequalities for my senior year. Nothing further than this.
What you should be thinking about is less math, and more problem solving. Being able to take a problem and break it down into significantly smaller portions is a necessity. Math does not take up a majority of programming, and you really only experience the worst of it in school. Getting through Calculus with no foundation with trigonometry was an actual nightmare.
All in all, its a fight to make it through school, but once you finally get to the end, besides finding a job its significantly easier than I would’ve thought.
high_throughput@reddit
I actually appreciate that Common Core finally admitted that yes, everyone will always have a calculator in their pocket. Therefore, it's more important to intuitively understand what multiplication is, rather than how to write two numbers on top of each other and follow a rote, mechanical technique to crank out a number you're promised is the answer.
nog642@reddit
You don't need to multiply or divide 4-digit numbers in your head, but you definitely need to multiply 1-digit numbers and divide 2-digit numbers by 1-digit numbers in your head.
If you pull out your calculator to do 8*4 you'll have issues.
And in my experience school does do fine teaching multiplication tables. Not sure what kind of numbers OP is talking about.
I do think not learning the paper multiplication/division techniques would be a loss. It is more important to understand multiplication intuitively than the rote process, but ideally you'd learn both.
lurgi@reddit
I'm not sure what anything OP is talking about because they offered no specifics and just ranted for a few paragraphs. They were taught incorrectly. In what way? Was it bad or just not what they liked? They are now learning the right way. How?
I like history much more than I did in school, but it's not because I was taught history incorrectly. It's because I've changed.
nog642@reddit
I disliked history in high school because it involved too much writing. Took a gen ed history class in college and it was much better. There was still writing but it felt like much less. I don't enjoy writing for the most part.
Especially in high school they felt the need to mandate us to take notes on the textbook / during lecture. And then to turn in those notes for a grade. Hated that. College classes didn't patronize us like that.
PLAYBoxes@reddit
You’re clearly looking at math teachings from your lived experience of it (high school level). None of which matters if you actually care about math.
You mention it being flawed, and not being able to “solve the problem how you want to”. As well as it being taught so you can’t learn without outside help. I’m sorry but I went through a Physics degree and had my more than fair share of math, and for one, those professors were stellar, my favorites, almost double majored because of them DESPITE the fact that I am terrible at arithmetic and quick math, hated math all my life, and didn’t do any advanced math until college.
Secondly, it doesn’t matter if you get a right answer with actual math problems if the work shown is fucked up. Because unlike some basic PEMDAS problem, where you can solve it in your head and spit the answer out, the work shown is important because in math at a college level everything was building upon itself, so if I had a fundamentally flawed idea of XYZ problem, it not only creates an issue there, but it creates an issue for the next topic, and the one after that.
I had problems that spanned more than one page in a notebook, and there are very clear and very required steps to solving these problems, they aren’t optional. This may differ when it comes to programming and cybersecurity variants of math, I know there is a lot of proof work (oh, have fun with that), and work with matrices and lattices, etc. I’m willing to bet the latter doesn’t have a “Well I decided to do this instead” approach either.
As for age, it’s easier to absorb this material a a young age, but you’re 25.. You’re not old, you have plenty of time. If you’re serious about learning math for something like a CS degree, brush up on basics which I’ll assume you have down (algebra, trigonometry, geometry), then look up the basis for understanding Calculus, maybe work through a pre-calculus course online. Then take night classes at a local university, doesn’t have to be a spectacular one, but having a professor build your fundamentals is super valuable, they will make sure you don’t miss the pieces you need for Calc/Differential Equations/Multivariate Calc/Partial Diff Eq/Combinatorics (likely valuable for the field)/etc. The more foundational pieces you miss the worse off you are. It’s like building a wall of bricks and just leaving holes in it at the bottom, the top will topple down and cause you to rebuild from the holes.
LengthinessOrnery147@reddit
I think OP needs help. I totally get how he feels right now. I have ADHD, so going into cybersecurity was definitely hard. Python's indentation was a total nightmare, so I decided to try diving into the problem. Don't push it too hard. Honestly, a lot of teachers are only good at complaining rather than actually teaching. The only person who figured out that something was wrong was my mom, and she was incredibly supportive. And you know? I found that half of the kids on campus can't really solve basic math problems needed for elite schools.
lurgi@reddit
Just FYI, the statements "I don't like how I was taught math" and "We teach math incorrectly" are not the same.
ObjectiveVegetable76@reddit
I went back to school at 29 to get a bachelors and masters in Applied math. I'm 35 now, if I can I will go back again. I'm a high school math teacher.
Public school is a gift. Even if incredibly flawed because the alternative is no education for people who can't afford it.
ObjectiveVegetable76@reddit
Go teach math for a couple years. With a bachelors degree you can easily get a certification and teach in a high school or middle school.
OtherwiseOne4107@reddit
This is a USA problem and not a problem with maths or with education in general.
BizAlly@reddit
The fact that math clicked once you learned it your way says everything. In tech, no one cares when you start only that you can think and solve problems.
disposepriority@reddit
This is a pretty insane post!
Fortunately or not, for the vast majority of programming positions math is not very focused upon - even in cybersecurity unless you work in cryptography, which is a pretty niche thing even among cybersec jobs, you really aren't very math heavy.
I do not see how AI is related to this.
Neither is 25 old or missing any opportunities (lmao, rip to all the absolutely ancient mid-thirties and above people here)
Source: Have worked in IAM, which is considered cybersecurity, as well as primarily non cybersec positions in my career, have always been a high performing employee, am very likely below average at math.
That being said - math is really cool and if you have the time to get good at it there really isn't a reason not to (opportunity cost aside)
PlanZSmiles@reddit
Fellow IAM dev, haven’t spoken to many others on this platform 👋
sept27@reddit
Yea, how are teenagers and young adults “favored” re: math? I’m a math educator and there are lots of problems with the way math is taught (rote, algorithmic approaches vs. teaching for understanding), but it sounds like OP was making up their own way of doing math that wasn’t correct.
tomkatt@reddit
Was watching Samurai Champloo recently and there’s an episode where a dude is like “I’m 40 years old, I’m past my time” and I was just like… ooh, that hurts. I’m older than he was. 🤣
DigmonsDrill@reddit
I think OP is unwell.
Conscious-Secret-775@reddit
The OP is feeling very sorry for themselves. I can see why. Physically disabled and apparently stopped putting the work in at school. No idea what their school experience was but their theory that you cannot learn math in a public school is mostly false. It is true that in the name of equity, advanced math options have been removed from public middle schools in cities like San Francisco. There is now a backlash against that approach though and the SF school district has reversed itself.
nog642@reddit
It's a vent, they see how if they had been presented with some opportunities that they should have been presented with, they could be somewhere very different now.
25 isn't old but it is like 7 years after high school. Just because some people are still switching careers in their 30s doesn't mean that feeling bad about being 25 already isn't valid.
DismalEggselent@reddit
I feel like so many teachers who teach math don't truly understand it. It's all "plug this formula in here" without the explanation or reasoning.
So many don't seem to understand that explaining the why / how can finally cause things to click for a student. Like explaining trigonometry without the unit circle, or how to find limits in calculus without at least quickly rehashing the difference between discrete and continuous.
captainAwesomePants@reddit
You are correct. Here's some good reading for you: https://worrydream.com/refs/Lockhart_2002_-_A_Mathematician's_Lament.pdf
Also, https://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf is a good one. Twenty years out of date and still just as relevant. The math teachers want to know math, but we're not teaching them math.
Note, however, that these are mostly problems at the poorer schools. The well funded schools are hiring plenty of teachers who are quite comfortable with math. There are other problems at those schools that are more about the material and the fundamental teaching strategies/goals and the sheer number of students per teacher. And the slightest pushback is still hugely controversial. We're still fighting over Common Core math.
DismalEggselent@reddit
"our teacher is very picky about making sure we fill in our quarter-notes completely. One time we had a chromatic scale problem and I did it right, but the teacher gave me no credit
because I had the stems pointing the wrong way"
Too accurate an account of my high school experience in math. 😮💨
ZelphirKalt@reddit
Still remember primary school, when I knew about negative numbers and they told me to write "not solvable" instead of calculating the correct negative number for some substraction ...
DismalEggselent@reddit
That's very true. To be fair, I had a coach (yes, also math teacher) that was very honest with me; "some people in my class still have trouble completing the work we did last week correctly. I'm not too worried about your understanding of things since you're getting the correct answer."
However, that very lack of true understanding leads to an inability to solve "new" problems to which the "formula" for solving them has not yet been introduced. It causes students to give up because "nobody has showed (them) how to do it yet". It's like learning about vectors and trigonometry but somehow never making a connection between the two.
Indigo903@reddit
I’m going to push back on that quote a little bit because while no credit for a mistake is harsh, drawing the stems the wrong way is indeed a mistake. They didn’t “do it right” if they don’t know how to draw a quarter note. Source: played flute for more than 10 years
captainAwesomePants@reddit
Sure, but the point is that we focus heavily on stuff that is measurable and enumerable (can they draw quarter notes, can they transpose, can they define the circle of fifths) and not so much on playing music or making up songs or just jamming.
They're not wrong to correct how you write quarter notes. It's just that focusing on it risks missing the point.
DismalEggselent@reddit
From my understanding, the purpose is to save space on the paper? I played clarinet and sax for 7 years and never thought about it lol.
lonelyroom-eklaghor@reddit
Thanks for providing the "A Mathematician's Lament". I'm almost crying while reading it.
RosieArl@reddit
This is the answer. Especially in the low levels, teachers teach multiple subjects at a surface level enough to pass you to the next person. They don't understand and they just want you to shut up ans know the "right answer."
Important_Staff_9568@reddit
Education is for the smart, the hard working, and the wealthy. If you aren’t smart enough to learn in class, won’t work hard enough to go home and watch YouTube videos, or wealthy enough to hire a tutor then you’re out of luck. Teachers have 20+ students and need to stick to the curriculum. They don’t have time for kids that can’t keep up. And they don’t get paid enough to care.
ZelphirKalt@reddit
Math is one of the most teacher and student dependent subjects.
fixermark@reddit
The bad news is you had bad math teachers.
The worse news is that most middle- and high-school math teachers are bad. Not because they want to be, but because a lot of math at that level is what we really nowadays refer to as "algorithms" or "computation." And that's probably what we should be teaching (a lot of those students are never going to excel at math past "following this number recipe to turn these numbers into the right numbers so your boss gets the right amount of money, nobody breaks the law, and everybody gets a paycheck"). But that kind of work isn't actually math, which is what you are describing: creatively selecting an algorithm or devising a novel algorithm (and proving it works) to solve a problem.
And a lot of math teachers don't actually have the skills to work with a student like that, because they're actually algorithms or computation teachers.
lonelyroom-eklaghor@reddit
True words. I finally found a language to express exactly what's going on with the ones focusing on the 'solving' aspect of any problem, whether it be a Kinematics problem or a von Neumann bottleneck problem.
They are teaching us Algs/Formulae more than anything.
binaryhextechdude@reddit
You're 25 not 60. Life isn't over.
Effective_Promise581@reddit
Math does not make up "almost the entirety of computer programming." I have been programmer for three decades and I use math infrequently and when I do its just basic addition, subtraction, division multiplication.
EZPZLemonWheezy@reddit
Most important daily use equations are already programmed into the languages. Sure you can vulcanize your own rubber and make your own tires and wheels, but someone else already designed ones that work for most occasions that you can just use.
In game development math is a bit more important as you need to have at least a rudimentary understanding of stuff like coordinates, vectors, and equations for some other stuff, but even then it’s not that hard to teach yourself.
But aside from all that, it’s never too late to pursue stuff you are passionate about. I didn’t even START programming until I was in my 30’s. You can’t hold just learn stuff and do cool stuff with it. Don’t let your age cage you in. May take longer if you’re older, but if you enjoy doing it, wouldn’t you like to spend more time doing something you like anyway?
Misterfoxy@reddit
Yeah the world gave you trauma but it’s your job to overcome it. Just like everyone else with a heartbeat
AutoPanda1096@reddit
I don't really understand your point but I will add my own two thoughts.
1) I have been a developer in corporate finance roles for 30 years on a good wage and it requires little maths knowledge. Many of my peers didn't study maths at all. I work with actuaries, mostly Oxbridge maths grads with PhDs, and they just tell me what calcs they want. And even then it's not rocket science (I did work with a literal rocket scientist once!). From a programming point of view I just have to divide this by that and times it by something else or whatever. I don't need to understand it. I just programme it.
2) In terms of maths teaching I like what prof Wolfram said. He said we focus too much on mechanical number cranking which is what computers do for us. That's the bit I don't need to learn. The computer does it. The hard bit is converting real world problems to something that can be solved by maths, and then applying the answer in a practical way. That's what takes intelligence. That's what we should encourage and teach. Why the hell are my kids being taught how to do long division lol?? The standard reply is "you got to know the basics" but actually, you don't.
SharkSymphony@reddit
To play a bit of devil's advocate, there are a lot of incorrect methods you can come up with. If your method was not rigorous or otherwise flawed, your teachers would be correct to point that out. If you were not demonstrating understanding of what they were trying to teach you, that would be a problem too.
Arithmetic is only one small part of mathematics. Being able to multiply efficiently can be useful in certain cases, but I would encourage you to think bigger!
The good news is, you didn't!
How so? You can use it to help you work. You do need to be careful not to let it substitute for learning, though, where learning a thing would be worthwhile.
I learned math through public school, and I thought it was fine – some great math teachers, some okay ones. I think your beef is more specific than that.
OskeyBug@reddit
When I was taking calculus in college I had a Russian professor and she never failed to remind us that this is all easy stuff and in her country they learned it when they were 12.
It's certainly not easy for everyone but I do think we're way too slow with math education in the US and kids who should be advancing are held back by curriculum designed to make sure the slowest kids meet minimum standards.
Own_Quality1300@reddit
I didn't get past Intro to Algebra in high school, back in the 80s. Now I am combining two classes:
A class that teaches Python & Mathematics Regular online Mathematics classes
My goal is to finally learn and truly understand Algebra and above. Slow going but it's been a thorn in my side for years. I loved Math as a kid. We didn't have CORE math then.
cheezballs@reddit
You know you can do programming outside of school right?
EhlaMa@reddit
I am going to assume you're complaining about how maths are thaught in the US cause I've yet to meet anyone else self centered enough to not disclose which exact education system they're complaining about.
And I'll say it probably is a you problem or a US education system problem 🤷
Consistent_Voice_732@reddit
In steel manufacturing, we often see the same pattern: employees who weren’t trained well early on need to work harder to reach proficiency. It shows how critical clear, well-structured learning is from the start.
ShoulderPast2433@reddit
Hard to say anything about education system if we don't know the country/state.
But nice vent I guess.
xdyang@reddit
thank you for the new copypasta
TheNamesRoodi@reddit
My high school AP CompSci and Calculus teacher loved when I challenged his way of doing things. He used to tell me that he explained how to do it my way to the other classes along with his way. I feel like I learned so much and had a great time with that guy. I hope he's doing well :)
My precalc / trig teacher was awful. Plug in formula, never ever talk to the class 1 on 1 and if you didn't do it exactly the way he did, it was "wrong".
GatePorters@reddit
It’s because school teaches you how to be a cog for early 1900s capitalism.