Theoretical Landing Situation

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SATSewerTube@reddit

This is scalable:

On the bus in manual backup all you’ve got is the thrust levers, rudder pedals, and the THS. The idea is to maintain control until systems can be restored to normal(ish).

While not a bus, UA292 is a example of how this could work

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bhalter80@reddit

It's too bad that those guys got pumped down to #2 on the most successful differential thrust landing by the DHL crew in Iraq that had the missile strike

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My instructor did the whole pattern once with power, rudder and trim. He only touched the yoke right at the very end for a flare, but we were so smooth he could have just landed with the trim. 100% doable.

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lnxguy@reddit

One of my favorite emergency procedures in a Cessna is broken control cable. For pitch, just use the trim wheel. For aileron, you can control roll by opening and pushing the doors against the wind. It works great!

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ReadyplayerParzival1@reddit

With power, elevator trim, and rudder it’s technically possible. I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of that though

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AV_NAV_COMM_PROFIT@reddit

We practiced this in a 172 and 152. Using trim, power, and the doors for directional control. It can be done. We didn't go full landing like this but practiced simulated approaches at altitude.

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Atticus-sovereign@reddit

Doors for directional control is wild

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BarnackBro1914@reddit

Directional control and breaking.

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RogLatimer118@reddit

In training in a C152, my instructor opened his door and the yaw was noticeable. But not sure why you'd need that since the effect was similar to the rudder.

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Oregon-Pilot@reddit

This guy meat bombs

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flyghu@reddit

The CFI I did my PPL with had me do this during my flight review. I got down to about 30 feet before I got the yoke back. An actual landing may not be pretty, but very doable.

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yellowstone10@reddit

I had a CFI once whose party trick was hopping in the Frasca FTD (which was configured as a twin) and doing a (simulated!) lap of the pattern with just throttle and trim.

When he really wanted to show off, he'd do it with the ceilings set to 100 feet AGL.

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MattCW1701@reddit

My CFI had me fly to final like that, his CFI made him actually land. The plane was surprisingly controllable.

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e_pilot@reddit

Definitely could get it on the ground safely if the winds weren’t too bad, can’t speak to the reusability of the airframe afterwards but hey any landing you can walk away from.

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IronBuilder@reddit (OP)

In a dream, all things are perfect, so I'm assuming calm winds.

I see your RV-7A in your flair. Dad was building an RV-12 in their garage (completed from the firewall back) before he sold it to move the retirement community.

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Bunslow@reddit

So long as the trim mechanism is at least partially functional -- able to hold a specific aoa/airspeed -- it is possible to fly a plane with just power and rudder. I wouldn't want to try to flare like that tho, so you'd need a lot more runway than normal and you may well end up slamming the gear or causing damage to the plane anyways.

It would be better if the trim were still fully functional. In that case, you might be able to manage like a quarter of a flare, which would be way less likely to damage the plane than zero flare.

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Left_Chemistry_9739@reddit

I pulled the carb heat lever out of the panel once!

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vtjohnhurt@reddit

I know a woman who pulled the throttle knob off during IR training. She's now married to her instructor.

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IronBuilder@reddit (OP)

There’s a story in & of itself right there.

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vtjohnhurt@reddit

It's her story, so I won't say more except that they've been married for about 20 years.

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IronBuilder@reddit (OP)

Yikes!

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SSMDive@reddit

Yes, it is possible. Many years ago I had a Quad City Challenger LSA. I could fly that thing around in calm air by sticking my hands out. Stick my left hand out and I'd go left, stick the right one out I'd go right. Stick both out or pull some power and I'd descend. Add power and I'd climb. I could also climb or descend using trim. I have landed like this, but it takes a lot of runway and the QCC is a very docile aircraft that weighed about 400 pounds.

I once landed my SeaRey on water using nothing put power and trim for pitch and rudder for directional control. But again, I had a lake that was massive so directional control was not critical and it was big enough that I could eat up miles setting it down.

Cessna 208 has this in the "Emergency Section" SECTION 3 - EMERGENCY PROCEDURES

LANDING WITHOUT ELEVATOR CONTROL

Using power lever and elevator trim control, trim for approximately 500 fpm descent with 0° flaps at 100 KIAS. Then control the glide angle by adjusting power. If required,make small trim changes to maintain approximately 85KIAS as power is adjusted during the approach. The landing ' flare can be accomplished by a gentle power reduction accompanied by nose up trim.' At forward C.G. loadings, it may be necessary to make a small power increase in the final flare stage to bring the nose up and prevent touchdown ' on the nose first. After touchdown, move the power lever to idle.

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MisLeadingUserPost@reddit

Not gonna say who and where but you can land and move sideways the airplane by opening and closing the doors then trim for nose up/down and speed + power to keep high or low.

Obviously not necessary the doors if you have rudder but lets say you lost it as well LMAO.

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BenWade2424@reddit

Look up MentourPilot United Flight 232 on YouTube. It was a commercial flight that lost all control. Pitch, roll, and rudder, all gone. They were able to control it solely with the engines and crash land on a runway. Some people did die but they also saved a lot of lives.

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FridayMcNight@reddit

He tried to put it back in but there wasn't an opening

Dreams are funny like that, but... even if he could find the hole (insert joke here) it wouldn't work. I say this not to bust your old man's chops, but it's a great opportunity to stick your head up under the panel and have a look at how the yoke works.

On the question: go out with a CFI and try to descend with power and trim and steer with rudder. I'm not saying you'll develop the skills to deal with losing two control surfaces; that's a shit situation no matter who is holding the yoke. But they are useful things to do that can help cement understanding of flight controls.

I'd use power and trim to descend and rudder to steer, and I'd set up for a long shallow straight in to a field with an easy approach into the wind with a long runway. I wouldn't touch flaps since there's so much pitch change with flaps on a 172. In your dad's dream I'm sure I walk away from it. IRL... fingers crossed.

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subedai77@reddit

We had to land using only the trim as part our instructor rating. It is doable but in a 172 it definitely wants to land on the nose wheel even with the trim full nose up. It took a lot of pumping the throttle to get it to land flat, halfway down the runway. It wasn't real pretty but it was satisfying.

The training was pretty useful as one our instructors had to bring in a Seminole on trim after the elevator cable snapped in flight.

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snotrocket50@reddit

When I was getting my PPL, my instructor demonstrating a landing with just power, rudder, and elevator trim. It can be done

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cazzipropri@reddit

Yes, and he has trim. It is possible but hard.

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apr911@reddit

What exactly is the question?

Is it possible? Yes. Its been done in simulators and real world training scenarios.

https://youtu.be/yqPFfTRn5So?si=nPLnnXVTuYkNnP9x

I’m not aware of a widely documented emergency where rudder-only flight was the primary control method, UA flight 232 is the closest I could find but in a multi-engine, thrust differential is a better control input than rudder, but the concept is well understood.

How would you do it? The general idea still follows the mantra: trim for airspeed, power for altitude. But you’ll need to understand how in uncoordinated flight those controls are more coupled and less precise than normal.

You’d want to carry a higher-than-normal airspeed. That gives you better rudder effectiveness and additional margin above stall, which matters because you’re flying uncoordinated and don’t have elevator authority to directly manage angle of attack. At the same time, the faster you are, the more space you need to make the turn.

As for power you probably don’t want to sit at either extreme of the power range. Power becomes one of your only responsive control inputs, so keeping some margin to both add and reduce power is important. For example if power is already at max and you somehow get low and slow, you are on the backside of the power curve and have no means of recovery.

Conversely, reducing power can help lower pitch and reduce angle of attack in many GA aircraft and its a more responsive input than trim if you find yourself nearing stall.

Its not a guaranteed or instantaneous fix in all conditions, especially if the airplane is already uncoordinated, but most light GA aircraft have positive static and dynamic stability and will tend to keep flying if you don’t fight them. That said, this stability assumes coordinated flight, and using rudder alone introduces asymmetric loading across the wings.

So while the loss of primary flight controls reduces the likelihood of pilot-induced accelerated stalls, and carrying extra airspeed reduces the likelihood of a traditional stall, the risk isn’t completely eliminated. You’re less likely to induce a stall through excessive control input, but more exposed to asymmetric or yaw-driven stall behavior.

With smooth inputs and sufficient airspeed, the situation is generally manageable in a typical trainer, but it still requires care since recovery options are limited.

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coneross@reddit

With elevator trim, you're OK. Without trim, no.

Source: I fly RC planes. I have flown an RC plane when the elevator came disconnected from the elevator servo. The plane became a lawn dart.

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SuperSaint77x@reddit

I vaguely recall my first CFI had me do touch and goes in a C152 using doors and pitch trim.

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vtjohnhurt@reddit

No doubt this has happened several times. I know of two incidents where the stick physically detached from the control circuit. Both pilots landed safely.

Incident #1 was in 2012, 18 year old pilot in a glider, retold and partly reenacted (to pattern altitude) in this video by someone who was there, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF0tTzvU8IM&t=6s

Incident #2 happened more recently in a Pawnee towplane. To my knowledge, there was no AD issued.

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always_gone@reddit

When I was teaching landings I found most people were trying to do way too much, ruining a perfect and repeatable pattern. To help break them of that I would trim out in the downwind and fly from abeam the touchdown to turning final with no hands on the yoke. With the initial flap deployment I would apply forward pressure to maintain the pitch attitude, but after that I wouldn’t touch anything, just rudder pedals and flap lever. Things will get trickier closer to the ground, but in my CFI days I landed using only trim (ghosting the yoke of course) just to see how it would be if I ever really had to do it.

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LADR_Official@reddit

definitely doable. something I do with my students once for a lesson about primary and secondary controls is have them turn to headings, climb, etc without using the yoke. don't have them land this way obviously, we're talking like 3000 agl 'left turn 040' type stuff

sure the turn is more gradual but its not like 20 miles. As a 40hr student I'd encourage you to try controlling the aircraft (at a safe altitude, not in the pattern) w/o using aileron

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PhilRubdiez@reddit

I did it in my primary training. Doors as rudders for directional steering and trim for elevator. I definitely wouldn’t want to, but when you have no other choice.

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quesarah@reddit

There was a Pawnee (PA25) towing gliders - when the control stick came completely out of the fitting. He almost made it, lost control on rollout and went off the edge. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/264402

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cocoabeach333@reddit

Definitely doable. With rudder, trim and power! I did a couple laps around the runway in this scenario with my instructor just in case (obviously we used the yoke for initial climb lol)

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DudeIBangedUrMom@reddit

Power, rudder and trim are you technically need.

I mean, thats what you're left with in the A320 if everything else fails.

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No-Brilliant9659@reddit

20 miles is massive lol. When you push the rudder the plane will bank, which induces the turn. You wouldn’t yaw your way around like what you’re probably thinking, hence the 20 mile turn thought. I’d want a long final in this situation, like at least 10 miles to just have the plane trimmed properly (remember you still have trim and that can control your pitch). It’s definitely possible, I’ve always wanted to go and just try it out one day but never have

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N546RV@reddit

20 miles is massive lol.

Ah yes, the old sixteenth-standard-rate turn

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GrouchyHippopotamus@reddit

My CFI always comes up with something interesting for my flight reviews. One year it was this. Midpoint downwind he "failed" my elevator and ailerons. Made me bring it down to about 20 ft. It wasn't pretty, but he just said "hmmpf. Survivable." And told me to go around.

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dangern00dl@reddit

In ppl training I did a sim session in an aatd where my instructor failed my ailerons and elevator and had me fly an entire traffic pattern using only power, trim, and rudder. The landing wasn’t pretty but I pulled it off (on a taxiway, missed the runway lol). It’s definitely possible to do but like someone else said the airframe might need some TLC afterwards.

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Status_Ad_9641@reddit

Once I was happy it was controllable I’d be off to the largest airfield with the biggest fire dept I can find and looking to be down to 10 usg or less.

Landing in those circumstances with 50 usg of LL swilling around above my head does not fill me with joy.

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flyingron@reddit

Trim is your friend in this situation if the yokes are merely disconnected rather than things being jammed.

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ATPLkilledmeoff@reddit

If the elevator is fully jammed then the trim can act in the reverse sense as a tiny elevator itself, a lot less effective and like I said it now operates in the reverse sense, but still would give some useful control in this completely hypothetical scenario.

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F1shermanIvan@reddit

We’ve done elevator jams in the ATR sim. Trim and power can get you down. It’s not pretty.

Aileron jams as well, and you just use the rudder. 20 miles seems excessive for any maneuvering around.

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Av8torryan@reddit

I’ve actually done it in 172 for fun with just trim , rudder and throttle.

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RaiseTheDed@reddit

I've heard of people doing this for fun. Not removing the yoke, but landing with just trim, rudder, and power.

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RecheckFeePlease@reddit

You don’t need 20 miles to make a turn with your rudder. It’s easy to enter a normal bank with only your rudder. Trim/power/flaps can help control pitch, so really this catastrophic situation can really be mitigated. Not going to be a soft or easy landing by any means though

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IronBuilder@reddit (OP)

I hadn’t thought of flaps. And trim. There’s a lot going on with the horizontal surfaces that can still be controlled.

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Guysmiley777@reddit

Probably mostly possible, especially if you still have an elevator trim wheel. Though a significant crosswind component could lead to a written off airframe after the dust settles.

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BigJellyfish1906@reddit

That won’t work anywhere near as as well as they think it will. They can steer it to the crash site. Not actually land properly.

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

My father and I had a discussion one night shortly before his passing in 2019. He had had a recent dream where he was downwind to land in a 172 and the control wheel pulled out of the panel. He kept pulling back and it came out. He tried to put it back in but there wasn't an opening so he threw it in the back seat and noticed the passenger seat didn't have a control wheel either.

So he says in his dream "not a problem". I have rudder and power, so I can land it.

Background: both my mom and dad were non-commercial pilots. Mom had about 700hrs and dad was over 2500hrs. Mostly in a turbocharged Bonanza, Comanche, and Warrior. Dad had single, multi, seaplane, commercial, instrument, and CFI tickets. I only have about 40 hours, never completed my private license.

So back to the dream. First, he's downwind and needs to do a 180 degree turn to set up for the landing. If all he's got is rudder, then the turn is going to be much more gradual. I'm figuring like a 20 mile turn or so. The runway he described was on the order of 8000' x 150'. Don't reduce power until you're lined up for final.

I guess it's possible. What are your thoughts?

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