E-motos overtake streets of the Bay Area

[-]

growlybeard@reddit

These little trolls are gonna get ebikes banned or some stupid law like a 15mph speed limit, which will ruin the ebike for everyone.

There's already such a bill in the legislature today. AB 1557 would limit e bike motors to 750W peak power, or 250W peak power for class 1 and 2 ebikes.

It will also limit speeds to 16mph.

250W is not enough to handle SF hills. 16mph is painfully slow on an e bike. A reasonably fit rider can hit 20mph without electric assistance. So this is making an ebike worse than a regular bike.

So this law will cripple legal ebikes, instead of targeting only the bikes causing harm, like the emotos this crew of anti social midwits ride around on.

I wish every one of these little miscreants a trip to jail and they get their e-motorcycles impounded and crushed

I hope their toilet paper is always one ply. I hope they walk around with a wrinkle in their sock they just can't get loose. I hope every table they sit down at has a wobble.

[-]

Jjayguy23@reddit

Well the eBike companies might need to lobby. Sad, but true.

[-]

The_walking_man_@reddit

I don’t see a problem with limiting e-bikes to 16mph.
The pedestrian/bike trails here are posted max speed of 15mph. And lately we’ve had a lot of idiots on e-bikes (especially kids) flying down the paths and clipping people too.

You want to go faster than 16? Then pedal your ass faster. The limit will ensure the ones getting on to pedestrian paths will at least be forced to maintain the slower speed.

16 is also plenty fast that if you crash you can still cause a significant amount of damage to yourself or others.

[-]

growlybeard@reddit

Why don't we set the speed limit of cars to 16mph? I don't see a problem with that. It maximizes safety. If you want to go faster you can buy a pedal bike and pedal faster!

[-]

The_walking_man_@reddit

Bikes travel on pedestrian routes. Cars do not. That’s a big difference you’re using to justify an e-bike being permitted to travel at higher speeds.

What you’re doing is describing an e-moto. You want something faster you get a vehicle.
You want to go faster on an e-bike, you pedal faster.

16 mph is plenty fast to be practical.

[-]

growlybeard@reddit

If it's "plenty enough to be practical" do you support a city wide speed limit for cars of 16mph and speed governors to limit them to that max speed?

[-]

The_walking_man_@reddit

I think we are discussing apples and oranges.

Cars/motorcycles and e-motos (when operated properly) do not travel on pedestrian paths and sidewalks.
There is no need to govern their speed, that is what law enforcement is for, licensing, etc.

E-bikes travel on pedestrian paths and should be limited in speed. And 16 mph (faster than 4 minutes per mile traveling speed) is plenty fast. And again, you can physically pedal faster if you want to go faster.

[-]

growlybeard@reddit

The same can be said for enforcing bikes. And no, 16mph is not plenty fast. Feel free to prove me wrong by sharing a video of your work commute limited to 16mph.

And your whole point of "when operated properly" is exactly the point of this conversation!

We're talking about legislation to mechanically handicap an entire class of vehicle because some people don't operate it properly.

There are plenty of people who ride bikes safely, it is the speeders or reckless riders that are a problem, not the vehicle itself.

limits a vehicle to a reduced speed within residential areas,

But why not all the time? If 16mph is fine, actually, then we should be able to limit all cars to that speed all the time, right?

[-]

The_walking_man_@reddit

You’re using strawman argument.

If you need to go faster than 16mph then get a road legal vehicle and operate it on the road. (Car, motorcycle, e-moto, etc.)

If you want a bicycle then pedal faster or be limited to 16mph on an e-bike.

My work commute would roughly 67 minutes at 16mph. 54 minutes at 20 mph.
I have no problem limiting that speed to a safe and controllable 16 mph.
But since I want a faster commute I operate a vehicle and drive a car to work.

[-]

stormdelta@reddit

Your logic is that someone who apparently can't be trusted to ride at a safe speed on an ebike when on a shared path should instead use a car - a vehicle orders of magnitude more dangerous to others if misused.

Sorry but that doesn't add up.

[-]

growlybeard@reddit

You've said this about the speed limit:

> And 16 mph (faster than 4 minutes per mile traveling speed) is plenty fast

> 16 mph is plenty fast to be practical.

But:

You wouldn't take a 16mph commute to work.

That's a contradiction you created, not me.

I will grant you, speeders on cycle paths are a problem, but we already both concede that non-ebike riders can easily go faster than 15mph. Limiting the motor to 15mph output doesn't solve the problem of bad actors breaking the law.

This is the root of the problem for both the proposed law and the gang of emoto riders going around SF.

We shouldn't use a sledgehammer when a scalpel will do.

The right answer to "speeding bikes on bike paths" is enforcement or segregation of the paths, one for slow walkers and one for bikes.

Just like the answer to "speeding cars in school zones" is enforcement, speed cameras, speed bumps, etc, not "speed governors in every car limited to 15mph".

Ebikes are the first viable alternative to cars for urban commuting, and limiting them to 16mph and 250W peak output takes away all of the attributes that made them viable as a car replacement.

"Just pedal faster" is the reason regular bikes weren't viable replacements before ebikes. Hauling heavy loads, having injuries or being elderly, having to deal with hills or long distances, are all reasons that make ebikes superior to regular bikes, but handicapping ebikes so they're **worse** than regular bikes is just backwards thinking

[-]

terraherts@reddit

Bikes travel on pedestrian routes. Cars do not.

Sure they do, literally every single cross walk and intersection. Most places don't even have shared/pedestrian paths at all, and those that do they're only usable for a small portion of the trip if you're trying to actually get somewhere instead of riding recreationally.

And modern cars are significantly more deadly to pedestrians and cyclists. I would consider that a much higher priority to address.

What you’re doing is describing an e-moto.

By your logic all existing legal class 1, 2, and 3 ebikes are now somehow "e-motos". You're part of the problem when you try and conflate these with actual e-dirtbikes/motorcycles like this.

That’s a big difference you’re using to justify an e-bike being permitted to travel at higher speeds.

16mph is too slow to safely or practically use on even on slower roads without protected cycling infrastructure, making ebikes significantly less practical as a car alternative. And the worst ebike rider in the world is less of a threat to other people than a mildly distracted driver.

And as a practical matter, fucking over every single existing ebike owner in the US by causing all extant bikes to be illegal would have an even more negative impact.

[-]

Jesters__Dead@reddit

16mph is dangerously slow when you have to share road space with cars... you get aggressive car drivers desperate to overtake

A good cyclist can easily do 20-25mph, so why can't an ebike match that?

These speeds are still under most speed limits

If they really wanted to make the streets safer, cars would be limited to the speed limit

[-]

Choice-Impression-54@reddit

Ride on trails different story with predestiran and mothers pushing bsby strollers 15 mph is max. I go 10 mph or slower because I understand that higher speeds are more dangerous. Glad people starting notice difference between e moto vs bike.

[-]

iregreteverything15@reddit

I'm the adult that you are talking about at the end of your comment, and 15 would be just fine. In my city, the speed limit is 20 mph on the residential streets. The main arterials are 25 - 30 mph but they all have separate bike lanes. And there are mixed use park paths throughout the city. When I check my speedometer, I'm usually only doing 15 mph. Any place with higher speed limits isn't a place that anyone would want to ride a bicycle on (electric or analog). So no one does.

I have 250W Mid Drive, and it is plenty powerful to get up the 100ft hill I live on. Even with my two kids and their gear strapped to it. Yeah, a 250W hub motor wouldn't make it up, but if you live somewhere hilly, then get a mid drive. Just like people who live in snowy or mountainous places buy AWD cars instead RWD. It's not a big deal.

In NYC the speed limit for all Ebikes is capped at 15 mph. And 15 is the cap in most of western Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if more cities go in that direction. 15 mph is plenty fast to make a 3 mile commute comparable to a car. It takes a little longer, but not much. It gets me and my kids around just fine.

This argument that Ebikes NEED to be fast just isn't true. And it is especially not true for people with kids.

[-]

growlybeard@reddit

When we start mechanically limiting the speed of cars I will happily support a similar limitation on ebikes.

I appreciate your anecdotal experience.

I too ride an ebike, and traveling faster than 15mph on long rides is what makes the ebike viable for replacing car trips. I frequently max out at 20mph and while I wouldn't do it all the time, wish I had a class 3 to get the additional 8mph. There are plenty of people who ride in places where going fast makes sense and is safe to do so. I live in SF where we do have a higher concentration of protected bike lanes and hills are regular occurrences.

I'll also say that power wise, a 250W motor isn't always a 250W peak power motor, which is what the bill aims to limit riders to. 250W is a nice pedal assist but I'd be surprised if you are going to manage a steep hill with 250W of peak power.

[-]

iregreteverything15@reddit

You need to re-read the bill that you are upset about. It does not say that class I and II will be limited to 250W of peak power. It says 250W continuous.

SEC. 2. Section 28171 is added to the Vehicle Code, to read:

28171. (a) (1) A manufacturer shall not equip any device labeled as an electric bicycle with a motor that is capable of exceeding 750 watts of peak power.

(2) A manufacturer shall not equip any device labeled as a class 1 or class 2 electric bicycle with a motor that is capable of exceeding 250 watts of continuous power or that is capable of providing assistance to reach speeds greater than 16 miles per hour.

[-]

growlybeard@reddit

Hey fair point. I'm glad the peak power is not limited to 250W. My mistake on the details. I read the bill text a few days ago when I got an email from a local bike shop and went from memory instead of referencing it when writing my reply.

The rest of my argument stands - there are other safe riders who need or want higher power. It doesn't make sense to neuter an effective alternative to driving cars because a few bad actors are breaking the rules.

[-]

Choice-Impression-54@reddit

15 mph plenty fast !

[-]

growlybeard@reddit

That is slower than a regular bike can go. If it's plenty fast let's limit every car to 15mph!

[-]

Monsterknot@reddit

Preach brotha!

[-]

Spiritual-Chameleon@reddit

Damn. They've already got laws on the books to restrict teen ebike use, which is really the issue...but no enforcement or readiness to do that. This may push me to get a second bike sooner than I planned to.

[-]

Prestigious-Royal-82@reddit

Oh electric Dirt bikes on the streets,!!! , It's All Bad😂😁😁

[-]

FigNinja@reddit

An unlicensed teenager on a motorcycle that can go 50mph riding it in traffic is bad. His father's inability to say No may get that kid killed.

[-]

Singnedupforthis@reddit

Same goes with kids who walk places, the parents need to lock these kids up! How many kids have to be killed by cars before we realize the outdoors is no place for children! Same goes with adults too, the outdoors should be reserved for unmanned automobiles, and all humans need to stay inside where it is safe.

[-]

FigNinja@reddit

Are you really going to liken kids walking on a sidewalk to riding a motorcycle at 50mph in traffic? Sure, if I somehow could not convince my kid not to walk down the middle of the street, then I might consider restraining them.

https://micromorts.rip/

[-]

Singnedupforthis@reddit

Oh, we don't care about the 500 kids a day killed/injured by cars, only the kids on emotos, got it, sorry. Addressing the much larger problem of kids getting killed by cars wlking, biking, etc. is too much of an inconvenience, we better distract ourselves by focusing on the much smaller, rounding error size number of kids who are killed by cars while riding emotos. And by address, I mean victim blame.

[-]

Prestigious-Royal-82@reddit

Someone 4 got to take them Crazy Meds !!😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😁

[-]

Singnedupforthis@reddit

I know, just my meds. I love cars and I now don't care about anyone but myself. Ah, true bliss.

[-]

Prestigious-Royal-82@reddit

Lmfao 😂😂. Love it. Thanks 4 the entertainment!!!

[-]

Singnedupforthis@reddit

I too get all giddy at the thought of the victims of car culture, dang my meds are AMAZING.

[-]

FigNinja@reddit

That is an artificial choice and you know it. We are capable of caring about more than one thing at a time.

[-]

Singnedupforthis@reddit

Well, hmmm, you are capable of caring about the more numerous deaths and injury caused by cars, but I have only heard public outcry around kids on emotos....curious. Point me toward where you showed concern for 500 kids a day injured/killed a day prior to the common usage of emotos. What advocacy have you done in the past since you have proportionally more concern for the kids killed walking and biking. I am going to go out on a not so long limb and say that you only care about kids who die when you can pount and shame them while also attacking a mode of transportation that threatens your one true god, the automobile.

[-]

FigNinja@reddit

Well, I vote for local and state politicians that support Vision Zero, and that brought us better protected bike lanes, and I petitioned for speed humps and traffic calming measures where I live.

[-]

Singnedupforthis@reddit

Ah, so no real advocacy calling for the end of people operating vehicles capable of well over a hundred miles an hour in areas where kids tend to walk and bike. You see the ridiculously high number kids being injured and killed by cars and basically ignore it. Adults have proven that they can't be trusted with unrestricted automobiles, but you prefer to focus on the kids on emotos who are far far safer for the general public. I am glad you have an outlet to exercise your concern for the lives of kids on emotos, because when it comes to compassion driven advocacy with regards to kids killed by cars, you bury any semblance of compassion deep down inside.

[-]

BassesNBikes@reddit

Thank Gerd! I almost missed my daily RDA of moronic nincompoopery.

[-]

Singnedupforthis@reddit

convincing.

[-]

BassesNBikes@reddit

Smart

[-]

Prestigious-Royal-82@reddit

I wish I had known to get an Electric dirt bike because then you don't need a License, or Mirrors, or Plates , ride on Side walk . Dam it, oh well!!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😂😂😂😂

[-]

Realistic_Mix3652@reddit

Finally they are calling them e-motos and not ebikes!

[-]

Reasonable-Rub2243@reddit (OP)

Except for the photo caption editor. Someone needs to slap some sense into them.

[-]

bradland@reddit

Looks like it says e-motos to me:

[-]

Astr0Scot@reddit

The nomenclature is a problem, but the main issue is that people are riding these emotos where pedestrians and cyclists are supposed to be. Realistically, they should only be ridden where cars and other motor vehicles are used.

[-]

Dook23@reddit

I don’t think the location is the real issue either as many of these younger riders on these things riding without licenses and such are often riding in the streets. It’s the problem with them being underage and riding recklessly more than anything. They all want to emulate morons like Surronster and others.

[-]

foghillgal@reddit

It`s an issue cause it means bike lanes no longer serve their purpuse, making it so that slow, vulnerable and neophyte riders can feel safe enough to ride a bike at all. Fast bike traffic usually does not ride the bike lanes cause changing speed is a bitch and tiresome on a normal bike. But, on something motorised, that`s not an issue so you have a strong increase in traffic that`s sboth fast and heavy on the bike lane which will dissuade many from even taking biking to commute. Or forcing everyone on an e-bike as a kind of arms races to survive.

[-]

Dook23@reddit

I never referred specifically to the bike lanes themselves but I get it. I was also more referring to those saying the problem is them in trails when just as or more often these guys are doing this stuff on the streets not the trails. We have ride outs with these guys around me, they are all over the streets and even the opposite lanes, popping wheelies and just being generally unsafe, which again is also something they see a lot of on social media.

[-]

Van-garde@reddit

I feel like an age cutoff might be a good idea too. Or a safety course as prerequisite.

There are kids who look about 10 riding their “e-motos” around my neighborhood roads. Including the highway leaving town. Same with e-scooters.

[-]

onlyfreckles@reddit

And those emotos need to be registered and licensed to own and ride...

[-]

snoogins355@reddit

Be nice if cops enforced any laws

[-]

Humble_Key_4259@reddit

They are very cool dirtbikes (just like the gas powered ones) that can be used on many OHV trails, private land, etc and if they can be licensed and insured and drives by a licensed individual I have ZERO problem with them being on the roads.

I really like them……. when they are being used legally just like any other motorcycle/moped/scooter.

[-]

elghoto@reddit

That guy in the photo advises customers that the bikes are not to be ridden on public streets. That shouldn't absolve him from responsibility.

[-]

blackldnbrit@reddit

And what exact responsibility do you want him to bare? What restrictions exactly? Will they be the same as buying a motorbike/car? Because there isn't any real difference from driving/riding a vehicle without road tax and insurance. But that still doesn't stop the thousands of motorists from still doing it everyday.

Unruly cunts will always be unruly. No matter on a e-bike, car or on foot. Let's not ruin it for everyone else.

[-]

baddieslovebadideas@reddit

shit looks lit tho!

[-]

BassesNBikes@reddit

Some people love a toy motorcycle.

[-]

Lurlean637@reddit

Cant review the entire article as requires a subscription.

[-]

FlyinDtchman@reddit

If you buy your kid a motocycle that goes 50 mph... you're a F-ing idiot. A helmet aint gonna save you from concrete or a tree at 50 mph.

Just get your kid a normal e-bike. So they can ride around and do normal kids things. Then they wont wrap it around a tree at 50mph showing off to their friends. Once they mature a little and prove they arn't gonna run over people or kill themselves. THEN they can get a motocycle... you know when they HAVE A LICENSE.

[-]

VagabondGlider@reddit

I want everyone that can afford an E Moto to get one and ride safely. At least they go out and have fun and have a hobby. Not staying at home being depressed or wondering what to do with life and doing drugs and drinking.

Plus they don’t have to pay for gas.

[-]

BassesNBikes@reddit

Time for South Park to take on this pathetic, subliterate subculture like they did the no-pipes Harley guys.

[-]

stormdelta@reddit

Glad to see headlines are starting to label these correctly, and the photo helps too.

I swear 90% of the time I see people complain about ebikes IRL, some questions makes it immediately clear they're actually talking about stuff like this.

[-]

Ohm_Slaw_@reddit

Watch. Somebody's gonna ask for that guy's number.