Cadillac Fans, You Reportedly Have Until April 20 to Order a CT4-V Blackwing
Posted by Bottlely@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 99 comments
Posted by Bottlely@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 99 comments
Heisenburg7@reddit
There goes another manual, what a shame.
Vhozite@reddit
Anyone have any idea what they will the building in it’s place at Lansing? This is where they built the last gen Camaro
NightFuryToni@reddit
CT5 will get another iteration with a gas engine, but details are hazy right now. Only CT4 is gone for good.
meodd8@reddit
BMW does a good job with making their M cars look different to the regular incarnations.
It really turned me off of the BW cars because they looked really similar to the the regular versions, and the aero that does make it look better and has performance improvements is like 10k+ to the MSRP.
Du_Kich_Long_Trang@reddit
Camaro just got greenlit again
Vhozite@reddit
Source? I don’t want false hope lol
Bottlely@reddit (OP)
During the last Car & Driver AMA here, I found it surprising when one of the staff talked about how long it took to get an allocation for a 4V-BW.
https://old.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1po3vo9/ama_car_and_drivers_10best_cars_trucks_and_suvs/nuce340/
INB4 why no V8. I think it would've been an icon if GM had gone the Civic/Integra route and sold a cheaper CT4 under Buick as the revived Grand National
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Do people even know what a Buick is anymore
There was this 2006 L.A. times article where, among other things, they mentioned the average buyer age of a Buick at the time was 69. The US average life expectancy at the time was 78yrs
Angry_Homer@reddit
I think it could've just been a Chevy. I mean, it already was as the Camaro.
The CT4s edge over something like a 3 series was the engagement and lower price... it wasn't really a great luxury car.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
China is main reason why Buick still there. Anyway, the brand customer age is still younger than America in China.
ElegantBiscuit@reddit
At this point the brand is so meaningless in the US that they might as well just let it die. Their current US lineup is basically a bunch of medium market compact SUVs that are basically uptrimmed blazers, that I think they are only doing just to keep the nameplate on the road.
The problem is that they can't go too budget because that is Chevy territory, and can't go up because that is GMC, can't go EV, ultra luxury, or uptrimmed budget muscle because that is all cadillac, can't go budget supercar because that is corvette. And GM refuses to do a true offroader but that wouldnt be a buick thing anyways. So that leaves them with a narrow band in the most crowded market segment where they can eek out enough sales per year to not justify not pulling the plug on the brand. It's where sub brands are sent to die - same kind of space that acura and infiniti are in but just way further along, however not as far along as Jaguar yet.
I think their best bet is bringing the buick minivan they sell in China over here, because I've been in one and its pretty nice, and pacifica actually does pretty well for stellantis, although that just kind of feels like dragging out the inevitable. But otherwise there just isn't really a future for buick that doesnt end up like Jaguar.
IAmWellBehaved@reddit
In my opinion, the opportunity is in keeping Buick and GMC twinned up but pushing more for GMCs to be positioned (marketing, styling, etc) as a bit more rugged and off-road-y like Jeep. Buicks on the other hand would be sleeker and more overtly crossover-y, even though mechanically the two brands would share a lot. Buick also has the opportunity to have the occasional halo car in the Buick-GMC stores like a proper Grand National/GNX, whatever the rumored car is, etc. Not a lot of sales will come from them but it's a natural benefit to having Buick around rather than dropping them from the Buick-GMC network.
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
I think the "mechanically the brands share a lot" is part of the problem.
Let's take a look at something like a normal midsize crossover, the Rav4 is the best selling (non full size truck) car in America right now for a reason right? GM right now has the Equinox and Blazer with a Chevy Badge in the 30-35k range, you move slightly upmarket to Buick and you've got the Envision in the low to mid 40k range, you move sideways and it's the Acadia at like maybe a grand or two more than the Envision, you then go upmarket more and it's the XT-5 starting at about 50k.
Cadillac can't really expand upwards unless it makes it's vehicles meaningfully better, cuz a midsize German SUV starts in the 60k range and the Lexus RX sells like hotcakes coming in right around ~53-55k.
So you've got one super popular segment, GM is capped out on the upper end because they can't really compete on anything but price with the current vehicle, and that means they've got at least 4 vehicles across 4 brands all crowded in trying to carve out an identity within a the 30-50k price range.
It just doesn't make any sense. They don't need more of this, they need less of it.
What they should do is dump some legit money in Cadillac and start making some bold decisions. Go compete with the Germans across your lineup, not just with the Escalade. That means you can push the entire brand lineup upmarket, this gives you more breathing room for GMC/Buick, you can make Buick more comparable to Lexus and make GMC get back to it's actual roots of "a nicer version of the chevy BOF stuff".
But sharing parts ain't it, that's how you end up with 3-4 cars that don't compete well in any segment. They're not as capable as trucks, not as efficient or reliable as Japanese competition, not as sporty as German competition, and GM is trying to extract all of that from one car that's painted with 4 different fonts, so it ends up only competing by being the cheaper alternative in any given segment.
IAmWellBehaved@reddit
The execution, when done right, turns the parts sharing into a strength and not a weakness. Just like how GMC BOF vehicles are a complement to Chevrolet rather than something that holds them back. The GMC Sierra owner's second choice was the F-150 at one point according to some consumer research, if I recall. So the point is how do they position two different vehicles to appeal to different customers?
Just cutting brands to reduce perceived overlap won't solve the issue, as was learned the hard way by the number of Saturn and Pontiac owners who didn't migrate to other General Motors' brands if my memory of the reporting at the time is accurate.
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
The problem was that Saturn had it's own unique spot - it was the cheap car, so they just made some shittier chevys after they axed saturn but largely that buyer went to like Nissan or someone who still made cheap cars.
Pontiac also likewise had really no replacement, I don't think a single "accessible sporty" car has been released by GM outside of the Camaro since killing pontiac.
But that's not the same as the badge engineered mess in their crossover SUV lineup across all four brands. It's just too tight of a price point, too little variation, and superior vehicles from the competition every step of the way.
IAmWellBehaved@reddit
But remember that's not the way it was contextualized at the time, either by us enthusiasts or in the media. It was General Motors cutting the duplicative excess from their portfolio, just like Oldsmobile. So we can say today that Buick's owner base would just move over to other General Motors brands and Buick serves no real purpose, but it sounds like history repeating itself in damaging ways for The General. We don't have to agree but my view is that Buick (at this time) should not be discontinued, not with sales up strongly in 2025 and plenty of growth opportunities.
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
Yeah sure, that's what they said, someone there may have even believed that, but that sure ain't what they did.
But that shines a light on what I'm talking about, Buick today has lost almost all of that brand identity - like for every single buick that exists there's a marginally cheaper Chevy or a slightly more expensive GMC that's doing basically the same thing. There's no car Buick makes that doesn't have either a Chevy that's ~2.3k less or a GMC that's ~2-3k more that a buyer could move over to. That didn't really exist for Pontiac or Saturn.
IAmWellBehaved@reddit
We can't really say a mass market brand has lost its brand identity in any meaningful sense when its sales growth outpaces its sibling brands (Chevy, GMC), can we?
The point I was making is that what you're saying applies to Buick was what everyone was saying about Pontiac and Saturn. Pontiac was just kidney grilles on Chevys, Saturn had evolved into begin just parts bin General Motors including Chevy and Pontiac donor cars. But enthusiasts "feeling" there's no merit to the brand doesn't make it so, and the sales trends do not suggest Buick is just being subsumed by it's sibling brands.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
They sell enough (\~200k units yearly) to justify keeping around
I just dont see the justification for a GNX when Cadillac, with infinitely more resources & brand recognition on top of a fantastic chassis & enthusiast product, couldn't pull off the CT4 themselves long term
Bottlely@reddit (OP)
People certainly did when Kendrick Lamar performed his GNX album at last year's Super Bowl. It would've been perfect timing if they had a modern GNX on hand, and they already had the perfect canvas for it (4V-BW)
hi_im_bored13@reddit
They're discontinuing the standard CT4+BW & you think they can make the GNX work? Cadillac has infinitely more brand recognition than Buick & they couldn't make it stick
They did a few ads w/ the GNX etc. but a modern GNX is fantasy
Bottlely@reddit (OP)
I didn't say it in my previous comment, but my thoughts are that GM missed both opportunities (i.e. ATS Coupe, CT4) to do some badge-engineering to revive a Grand National. Doing so would have been great timing but that's a hindsight thing.
The next best opportunity would be now on the Alpha 2-2 but if the CT4 won't get a second-gen, I don't see it being repositioned under Buick without a twin.
Aero06@reddit
Buick is in such a slump that dropping a GNX successor wouldn't be a bad branding strategy if Chevy is working on a new Camaro to platform share it with, this hinging completely on the fact that Kendrick Lamar gave the Grand National a billion dollar ad campaign's worth of attention that Buick is in no position to take advantage of.
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
GM has done a pretty meh job of managing the brand identities of most of it's legacy brands. Buick used to be a performance and luxury thing, not too far off from where BMW would have been positioned in the last few decades. Buicks used to be "doctors cars" ya know? Now that's German luxury.
With Cadillac seemingly comfortable being less luxurious than the German cars, and buick supposedly occupying a space between Cadillac and Chevy, there's just not a lot of margin left here lol.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Yeah but even then what normal person under the age of \~50 knows specifically what a Grand National is, outside of maybe some Kendrick Lamar fans. Next yr its going to be 40yrs since they stopped sales
& yeah blackwings dont sell to non-enthusiasts either but you need a normal car to build an enthusiast sedan product out of, who is buying a grand national over a Cadillac, & the Cadillac itself isn't doing all that well
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
FWIW, I don't think that expanding the car to buicks would have been a good thing. That's just more badge engineering from GM, which is what got them in such a bad situation in the 00s.
I think their bigger issue is that they put zero effort in to changing the brand image of Cadillac, so despite a lineup of fairly sporty vehicles most people still think of it as "old person's car" ya know?
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I'm not sure I'd call it a lineup of fairly sporty vehicles, not compared to the germans anyways, theres two & both are cost-comparable with M cars rather than M-lite. The Escalade-V is fantastic but 150k+
I'd argue the escalade in the media did more for their brand image & moving their perception younger than the cts/ats/ct4/ct5 ever did. Average age for that is in the mid-40s vs. 50s for rest of the brand
Whereas w/ e.x. BMW you can get into a base 230i, tarted up x3/x5, still have lots of fun
& their EVs have moved that age downward but EV appetite isn't fantastic right now
Uptons_BJs@reddit
You know, the last gen ATS coupe had like, no chance of being a sales success as a Cadillac. But I always thought that with different panels, it might have made a good Buick flagship.
Have the basic i4 or v6 as the "Grand National", and the ATS-V as the "Grand National GNX"
GeoffreyDaGiraffe@reddit
I remember reading an interview with Bob Lutz. The ATS platform was also slated for Pontiac. So the Buick thought is not far off.
openmind365@reddit
Buick needed to make the Avista an actual car. That concept looked WAY ahead of its time. Had that came even with an LS3 with a 6 speed manual option, it would've sold out.
Bottlely@reddit (OP)
I think about this constantly.
Even as a sedan, I imagine most enthusiasts can forgive the lack of 2-door styling when the CT4 is already such a great driver's car.
IAmWellBehaved@reddit
The Grand National was a large coupe muscle car without an available manual. A restyled CT4 given to Buick would be a very different kind of car.
Bottlely@reddit (OP)
The older ATS-V is about the same size as the OG Grand National, and pretty much had everything needed for a GNX if you optioned it right.
No reason why GM could not have taken the Civic/Integra route and make a CT4-based Grand National that ticked all the boxes. And I think most enthusiasts can forgive the lack of a 2-door styling given everything going on in the market.
IAmWellBehaved@reddit
But, no? The Grand National was almost two feet longer than the ATS was. The Grand National was longer than the modern Challenger was.
I think your point is much closer to mine if we're saying the Alpha platform could be used. But the specific CT4 version of it, that's where our opinions diverge.
Bottlely@reddit (OP)
I'm mixing up my numbers. I recall the ATS/CT4 having a much longer wheelbase, taller height, and similar width to the GNX, but they're shorter in length.
Still, yes: my point remains that as an RWD Alpha model with a turbocharged version of a commodity V6, the ATS-V / 4V-BW would have been a perfect starting point to build a GNX from. All the required hardware to make it "authentic" to the GNX formula is already met.
IAmWellBehaved@reddit
I am definitely on board with an Alpha platform Grand National, but yeah it'd need to be much larger than the CT4 and be developed as an independent model. That being said, it probably only works in higher end halo car form, because after all, if the CT4 has sold this slowly there's little reason to believe a mildly cheaper Buick version wouldn't just sell worse and struggle to justify itself.
russsl8@reddit
History didn't stop the Dodge Charger/Challenger.
IAmWellBehaved@reddit
Yeah, definitely. But the 21st century Charger's main qualifier is that it has four doors and otherwise is still a big comfy muscle car. The CT4 is a compact sport sedan, completely different from the big highway cruiser that the Grand National/GNX were.
Not saying that they can't do it, but the question is why you'd do that. Ford has used the Mustang name for years now on an electric crossover, and that's largely because the formula meets the moment of consumer demand. Just bringing out a halo car and putting an unrelated name on it when it's supposed to appeal to the very enthusiasts who will scorn the "misuse" of the name is not as effective, and more like Dodge slapping the Dart name on a random compact.
ItselfSurprised05@reddit
I've got a 4 Blackwing.
One of the engineers for the Blackwings personally owned a 4 Blackwing, and participated on one of the V forums. He swore that the CT4 chassis would satisfy GM's internal requirements for V8 fitment.
The CT4's front track width is 2.7" narrower than the Camaro's, and the CT4 is 1.1" narrower overall.
I'd love to hear some V8 rumble. But the sound deadening is so good you don't really hear the engine anyway. The V6 TT is a pretty sweet mill.
Bottlely@reddit (OP)
I remember reading in one of the mainstream US auto magazines that a lead engineer said the V8 could not be fitted into the ATS without some safety compromises (intruding into the firewall iirc).
It's difficult to find first-party sources corroborating this, every source I've found instead talked about refinement or competing with the Europeans
ItselfSurprised05@reddit
Well, there is this post from an actual engineer on the Blackwings:
TotoroSlim@reddit
Have no chance of affording one, but did get to drive a manual one at a company event, it is a seriously fun car to drive
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
I honestly can't think of another example of a car currently on sale that's been such a unanimous darling of reviewers, shame it's just not selling in any sort of volume.
By all accounts the CT4 BW has the best chassis of any modern sports sedan, has great modern steering, has an actual manual, blah blah blah. The car should be selling like nuts, in a world where G80s and G87s are selling like nuts, this thing shouldn't be doing this poorly.
OgdenDermstead@reddit
Alfa Romeo Giulia is kind of a similar situation where it's popular with reviewers but (especially now that it's been in the market a long time) they don't sell. What's hilarious is I have gone to a couple of IMSA races and you sure see them in the parking lots there!
element515@reddit
I forgot about the alfa when shopping for a car and kinda regretted it until I read that the infotainment lagged. That would bother me so much in a daily for that type of money.
ShortBrownAndUgly@reddit
A few problems I encountered before settling on the M2 in 2024-
I could not find CT4 BW to test drive. There was only one listed a reasonable distance from me and it sold before I had a chance to see it.
I’ve read that the fit and finish is not as good as the BMW.
The prices were really high. These cars have a ton of options that easily push them into the 80 to 90k range which I was not willing to pay
I’m in my early 40s and really thought hard about buying a brand for old people lol
bc10551@reddit
The fit and finish is considerably worse on the 4vbw for sure. Like the stalks genuinely felt cheap and flimsy and the center screen is a joke lol. I think the car is pretty pointless if you're going automatic because it just did not feel special to me
g0atm3a1@reddit
In my early 40s as well. Bought a manual 4BW new last year and it was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. Screw the “old man” brand image issues. When a car is this engaging, all that shit goes out the window. Also, the free track weekend in Nevada was awesome!
uberdosage@reddit
All these old man allegations.... growing up in Houston in the middle 2000s all you ever heard about was rappers flexing about their candy cadillacs!
carguymt@reddit
This is where I am too. I have a CT5 Blackwing and it's the best car I've ever owned bar none. Everyone in real life who doesn't really know about cars clowns on me for driving a Cadillac, but who cares. If someone compliments the car I know they know what they're talking about, which is nice. I'd rather get 5% the compliments on the car compared to an M3 with those compliments being a genuine appreciation of the car instead of people just thinking the badge is cool.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Honestly, the 4BW doesn't look like an old man's car at all. Same with the 5BW. Their styling is quite youthful and modern imo.
Goku_LOL@reddit
That spring mountain experience was absolutely amazing. The 4 is a monster on the track stock. Every instructor I asked preferred the 4 to the 5 for performance driving. Wonder if that sentiment has changed with the precision package available on the 5s now.
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
This is sorta what I'm referring to above, but that's not really who Cadillac sells cars to anymore - it's just what their brand image still is.
Every few years they seem to go through this push of "we're going to compete with the Germans" and put out some really fantastic stuff, then GM kneecaps them, kills projects, and they go back to having very little support outside of building more escalades.
What they need is a marketing rebrand for the cars, the last Caddy CEO tried that and almost got it done with the blackwing engine and next gen designs, then GM got cold feet and ousted him in favor of the current guy who's all about just "do what we've been doing".
GM is the most frustrating brand out there, they're like that friend you have who's incredibly smart and genuinely capable of whatever they want, but is sorta fine just chilling. Every now and then GM decides to care and knocks it out of the park, but most of the time they're like "hey, that's a solid design, now we're going to rip out the good materials and replace it with hard plastics to save money"
element515@reddit
I was shopping between the CT4 and an M2. I went in with the blacking being the preferred car, but after driving both the M2 won.
The interior was nicer and people hate on the screen in the M2 but it's so easy to use and it's laid out well. When sitting behind the wheel, the design makes sense. The BMW app is also pretty great and wireless CarPlay is nice to have.
The S58 just seemed a more well known engine too with very high potential and the aftermarket is so much bigger for the M cars vs blackwings.
Driving wise, the blackwing had a better manual for sure and I kinda miss that... but what sealed the deal was multiple posts of people that jumped ship to an M2 because of reliability or quality concerns. A couple of post with people unable to start the car or it dying out. It just seemed you got more for your money in the M2 and the CT4's got hit by depreciation harder it seemed.
inquiryreport@reddit
The issue is that the blackwing specifically in vacuum where the reviewer is focused only on driving dynamics and engagement is a great performance machine.
However that all falls down when it has to be a good csr, the ct4 (and ct5) are not good at being actual cars in the segment they compete in. They are cramped, have poor ergonomics as an everyday sedan and just generally aren’t popular.
An M3 at the end of the spirited drive morphs back to being a 3 series, market leading sporty but functional sedan.
GM smartly has kept the black wings as very limited production to avoid the embarrassment of having them rot on lots, they kinda exist as automotive unobtainium, the rare car that’s almost a myth. So the very limited population of folks willing to overlook its flaws as a car can eventually get their hands on one but that’s pretty much the only group who end up with one. Where the M3 has a population of posers who just want the coolest car bmw sells and another huge population of folks who literally want to have their m3/m4 do double duty as a family or just plain useful personal vehicle, the blackwing is only for the absolute enthusiast
ducky21@reddit
This is a very real problem. The Blackwings are obviously much faster and more capable on a track than my Accord, but if I'm going to the track, I'm always taking my S2000.
Why would I trade out my car that I drive myself and my wife around in for one with less interior room, no radar cruise, and an effective tank range of half the Accord?
dustygator@reddit
It's not for you.
There is a reason why the concept originated in Europe and US automakers didn't try competing in the segment until the 90s. Space, gas and debt have been cheap and easy in the US for the better part of a century. A middle manager in Munich or Milan on the other hand would struggle to make two cars (or a muscle car/pickup) fit their urban lifestyle, hence the desire and market for a single do-it-all car.
When 3 series sales took off the 80s in the US, it was because it became a yuppie starter pack staple. The same is true today. I have a tight two car garage in a major urban center and no street parking. A compact sports sedan lets me hit the track on Sunday, take my kid to daycare on Monday with just enough space to wheel out my garage bin on Tuesday.
supereuphonium@reddit
I could see the CT4 being small especially if you have passengers in the back, though it’s arguable it more competes with the M2 in price and interior space.
The CT5 I don’t get why it wouldn’t be a good actual car? Its legroom and headroom are comparable to the M3 and M5 and at least according to reviews, has a better suspension for everyday driving.
Id wager the real reason the M cars sell so well is just because of the brand. Most people aren’t enthusiasts, they just want a fast and aggressive looking car with a great brand, and BMW does that.
inquiryreport@reddit
? Forgetting the ergonomics/infotainment for the driver, the CT4 is a 3 series competitor which to your point, despite being a 4 door sedan feels like a 2 series COUPE in the back seat. Similiar for a ct5 feels like a 3 series despite being a 5 competitor. Plus while the headroom metric on paper is similiar they both feel even smaller due to the rake of the roofline and how they angled the seats to try to make up for that roofline.
Cadillac seems to have thought they were going to find an extra sporty niche in the sedan market with a more compromised vehicle for sport but as it turns out generally folks don’t actually want that… and when they do they actually want a coupe. Add to that the day to day driver experience isn’t good from the infotainment/interior design. So Cadillac is left with a core vehicle that is off the mark other than a small segment of very specific buyers who want the sedan sleeper body, and prioritize the incrementally better than competition enthusiast focused, feedback based driving dynamics over the everyday usability.
aponderingpanda@reddit
Have you actually driven all the vehicles you're talking about?
randeus@reddit
GM had this same problem with the Camaro. Great drivers car and a better track weapon than the Mustang and vastly superior to the Challenger in that respect, but that wasn’t enough for it to outsell either, as both were better at being normal cars and most people aren’t buying these cars to be mostly for the track.
uberdosage@reddit
Another issue is that the styling is very reserved. When i showed my girlfriend I was considering one she just thought it looked like a normal ass car.
Enthusiasts online say they like "understated" designs but the general public wants to feel like they are driving something special if they are spending that much money. I hate the angry birds pig nose grill on the BMWs but that loud styling has lead to good sales success
Automatic_Zebra_1099@reddit
One issue I noticed, as someone who’s interested in one of these and looking at used ones currently, is that some dealers treat these things as gold.
The local dealer to me has two in stock - fully decked out $77-80-K MSRP- and they won’t let you even sit in it let alone test drive it without a substantial down payment.
Now, I can’t afford a $75-80K car but I could swing a $60-65K car andi walked out as soon as the sales lady said that. That’s just ridiculous.
These things are fantastic - and I’ve driven an air and manual car - and so worthy of the praise but come on, that mindset of no one can touch this thing doesn’t help.
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
When I was car shopping last year I wanted to test drive one and couldn't even locate one near me. Seemed like they're really low volume, but like having something that's low volume still sitting on showroom floors is wild. Ended up in a Supra though, so all is well that ends well haha.
Automatic_Zebra_1099@reddit
The $77K one had, and still is, on their floor. It’s been there for a good 6 months now.
The sales lady tried to talk me into a base CT4 before I walked out. Why on earth would I do that? I’m here for one specific vehicle and a very base model is not going to be equitable.
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
That's always a key tell that someone doesn't understand their buyer. People buying the BW have zero interest in the regular car, people buying the regular car have zero interest in the BW.
Even the normal CT4V here is not super enticing. If you compare to BMW the M lites are typically very stout performers - with Caddy it's just a pretty boring trim. The lack of a stick tells me they never wanted it to be considered as a serious performance lite car either.
Automatic_Zebra_1099@reddit
And that’s the thing: I told her exactly what I was looking for, AND WHY! She knew what I was looking at in a vehicle, that feeling of being behind something special and sporty and engaging and emotional. And her response? Here’s a $30K CT4, would you like this one?
Like come on.
Silencer87@reddit
The back seat seems tiny compared to the G80.
aprtur@reddit
The G80 M is a bigger car, both length and wheelbase, so that tracks.
aprtur@reddit
That's because a CT4 is class compared to the G70 - the G80 is up against the CT5, an entire segment up.
ManufacturerBest2758@reddit
The CT4 backseat is tiny
komrobert@reddit
No AWD is a bit of a pain point for sales. IIRC like 2/3 of G80s sold are AWD, and the C63S/RS5 are AWD only.
Most people buying this class of cars want a daily. CT4 back seat room is also really poor compared to the competition.
unsaltedbutter@reddit
I haven't gone in myself, but I've heard the sales people aren't all that accommodating with test drives either.
ShadyDrunks@reddit
Doesn't help that it sucks to mod, currently the only way to increase fuel rate is to get a replacement cam, where the BMWs (the S58 ones in this case) just need a low pressure pump to be able to run full E85 on stock turbo
MarcusSurealius@reddit
The succes in GTP racing and new entry into F1 is their start. They should have gone for NASCAR first saleswise, but going they way they have has been better for tech development.
volcanobag@reddit
GM quality doesn’t help. I bought new in 2023, love the dynamics of the car and agree with the praises of the car, but I have had more warranty claims than all previous cars combined. I’m going to the dealer today for my fourth (4!!) set of taillights as a quick example.
The engine is effective but quiet and dull, although I may be jaded having owned a GT350 prior. The power band is up high, and PTM is pretty conservative and meant for lap numbers, so around-town it’s very restrained and isn’t as exciting as equally priced offerings.
I understand the purpose of the car is to be on a track, I did the included track days and it was a blast. But for a daily driver it just doesn’t have much fizz.
All that said, I’m still keeping mine until the warranty is up because this market is crazy and there aren’t many better alternatives for the price!
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
While that's for sure true, it's not like BMW didn't dominate this segment for years with cars that had a pile of quality issues. Interestingly BMW seems to be putting out some of the most reliable vehicles in that segment now lol.
WinnieT97@reddit
What a pain in the ass it was to get mine. I called every dealer in California (About December 2021?) and every single one couldn't do me with an MSRP no-options Electric Blue in manual. I waited for months before a dealer finally accepted on my terms and waited a whole year while the car sat while they waited for components due to chip shortage. Easily the best car I've ever owned and review-wise it's one of the most well spoken for cars but it's real easy to see why we don't see more.
g0atm3a1@reddit
That was a tough time for car folks. I custom ordered mine in January (base spec manual with the only option being the Tech Bronze wheels) and had the keys in my hand in May.
MasterChief813@reddit
Well I hope I win the lottery this week after all this time
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
Could have been one of the GOATs if it had an LT1/2. GM is too slavishly beholden to their strange goal of making Cadillac copy the Germans instead of recognizing how they can use their own identity to be better. YOU ARE THE SMALL BLOCK COMPANY. USE A SMALL BLOCK.
Choppa1987@reddit
Former ATS-V owner. I use to stand on the hill that the ttv6 was a better motor than the V8 (tunability and ease of power), but I was wrong. This thing should have the V8 out of the C8, with the 5VBW continuing to have the boosted version.
Nefilim314@reddit
Order them? I went to look at one when they were first announced and dealer said they had already specced their 10 allocations in black with an automatic and I was going to just has to pick a date to receive an automatic, black car.
tcherian211@reddit
i still dont get why they made 0 improvement on rear seat legroom on CT4 when it was universally panned in the ATS...back seat is literally tighter than every other sedan it competes with
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
It’s a feat of engineering prowess that GM managed to give the CT4 a notably tighter rear interior space than the M3 while also having a trunk that’s 6ft^3 smaller.
Automatic_Zebra_1099@reddit
See I didn’t find the back seat that bad. I drove one last week and I’m 5’10” and I could sit behind the drivers seat in my position decently well. It wasn’t gaping but there was a little room for my legs.
For me and having two young kids, it’s perfect. They don’t need a ton of space given they’re still small so it works well.
Now I just need to find one at the right price point/options.
tcherian211@reddit
Was it a BW with the thinner carbon seats or just standard seats? Hard to believe if it was the latter
Automatic_Zebra_1099@reddit
Standard seats. I like the performance seats because of the thinness and I’d happily take another .5” in space just because.
kellysill513@reddit
That's a beautiful car
Psyclist80@reddit
Still have my ATS 2.0T (6MT RWD) and love the car as a daily...really wish they would have kept this option for the CT4. But I get it, most people dont want a manual daily. I sure as hell do though!
Waiting on the CT5 replacement to decide what to do for the next car. NA 6.7L V8 CT5 V BW sure would be nice!
bikedork5000@reddit
I'm usually not one to say anything about screens, but that dinky little trapezoid thing in these with the mile-wide bezel looks like it's from 2016. The switchgear and a bunch of the interior plastic is all kinda cheap looking too. Which is a shame since dynamically and looks wise it's such a great car.
caterham09@reddit
I would probably have one already if I wasn't aggressively paying down my student loans. Looks like I'll be about a year late to the party to buy a new one. Thankfully there seems to be a healthy used market for them
imperialtrace@reddit
You can definitely get a good used one. Focus on those loans and don't worry about the new car FOMO.
caterham09@reddit
Yup. There's a reason I don't have one. My family comes first and a fun car doesn't fit in the picture right now. It'll come soon enough and I'll be able to actually enjoy the car instead of stressing about a payment
nuttypoolog@reddit
Makes a great drift car.
snt271@reddit
I think the issue with the CT4-V and V-BW is that its design language is pretty bland. I know it wasn't a great seller, but even the ATS-V is more aggressive and distinctive.
BMW has this figured out. The car doesn't have to be pretty. It just has to be attention grabbing.
Vegetable-Parking747@reddit
Didn’t see any info here on last date to build the CT5V (v6) but has anyone heard? Next year makes more sense for me to buy finances-wise but the used prices are the same as brand new after considering transport fees, financing rate, and tax deduction so part of me wants to pull the trigger.
Hnry_Dvd_Thr_Awy@reddit
My 5BW was a fucking hoot. I just need them to offer the new 6.7L LS6 mated to the 6 speed and put in in the CT4 or CT5. I'd have to contact my doctor because of a four hour erection if they did that.
WarCrimeGaming@reddit
I just ordered 2