Colorado's New Speed Cameras Can't Be Outsmarted by Waze or Radar Detectors for Good Reason
Posted by Viperlite@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 229 comments
Colorado has launched an automated, speed camera program on select stretches of highway that use average speeds between cameras to determine compliance. No points assessed to drivers, so they can fine the car owner, avoiding the need to ID the driver. Fear is, people will run with altered or no license plates to avoid fines.
Euler007@reddit
Waze can warn you they are there and propose alternate routes.
IrinaAtago@reddit
It can also do the average speed thing.
Korea already has average speed cameras and it warns you and even gives you the average speed you're doing.
EfficientTourist7480@reddit
Well 1 i know is on a major stretch of I-25 in between Denver and Fort Collins, there aren’t any alternates really to that
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
Also I think one important detail is getting lost in the news here, these things only ticket you if your average speed is 10mph over the limit. Which means if the speed limit is 75 then you need to be averaging over 85 across the entire stretch between cameras. That's a decent clip.
BUT, this is in a specific section of I25 that's undergoing long term construction, and the speed limit is 65. I've never driven through here, but averaging 75mph isn't some sort of crazy madman speed, this seems kinda nefarious.
So if
Evilmoustachetwirler@reddit
Driving 10mph over the limit seems wild as an Australian. Doing 3km/h (around 1.8mph) is enough to get you a hefty fine and demerit points here.
Tyking@reddit
The standard unofficial rule throughout the US is that you can go up to 10mph over the speed limit. For the most part you won’t be pulled over or ticketed unless you exceed that. Many police officers openly say this, though technically they could still pull you over if they wanted.
Naught2day@reddit
I got ticketed for going 8mph over. I understand that is unusual but the cop was just bored...I guess. That ticket was pricey though, did deferred adjudication and it was like $400. Smells like speed trap.
Tyking@reddit
Yeah, predatory speed traps may be an exception given that they’re profiting profusely off you and clearly not interested in fairness. I’m curious how fast you were going? 8 mph over is a lot bigger in a 15 mph school zone vs a 75mph highway lol
PFD_2@reddit
That sounds miserable
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
If the official speed limit is 110, and you'll get fined if you do 10mph more, everyone does somewhere around 126 (or more likely, 125 indicated and ~120 actual). If you get fined for doing 2 mph more, everyone just does somewhere around 113. No matter what the speed limit is (assuming it's not like 200), most people will do somewhere close to rhe maximum they can get away with. We just don't have the same social contract where everyone agrees to do 15 over the limit, and therefore our speed cameras aren't adjusted accordingly. For the record, people do well over 110 in places where you can get away with it (I don't think I've done a trip over the Hay Plains where my codriver didn't do at least 130, and my father usually drives it at 160), but they do that knowing they risk a massive fine, well over 1,000 AUD if they guess wrong. The fines are absolutely brutal, I won't deny that.
santacruzdude@reddit
In Los Angeles, even though the speed limits are usually 65mph, if congestion doesn’t slow people down, they’ll typically drive 75-80. That’s the normal flow of traffic. “Speeders” will be driving 90+
Vic_Vega_MrB@reddit
I challenge you to find any freeway in Los Angeles in the daytime that you can go faster than 60 unless you're on a motorcycle. Let alone this 90 mph you're talking about.
santacruzdude@reddit
Certainly not during the day, no. It’s when traffic is flowing, especially late at night
Mnm0602@reddit
Problem is it always starts like this and then it devolves into a gotcha fining operation. Can’t we just toll people a reasonable about to drive in faster lanes?
cbf1232@reddit
So, "pay to play" to allow people with more money to avoid congestion?
Snow_source@reddit
DC and Northern VA have been doing congestion priced fast lanes (65mph vs 55mph normally) for over a decade at this point.
It works fine. It's not a new idea.
matt2331@reddit
And also on 66 during rush hour (when previously it was HOV only). The people who complain about the dynamic prices are the people who were cheating beforehand.
sugarinducedcoma@reddit
No, the people who complain about the dynamic prices are doing so because they can’t afford to spend $50+ to be in the express lanes
matt2331@reddit
Which they wouldn't have been in anyways if they were still hov only. That's my point
sugarinducedcoma@reddit
The worst thing they could have done was add those express lanes. Got rid of one lane traffic permanently for non-HOV hours, thus making traffic exponentially worse, just to bring in more money via tolls.
matt2331@reddit
Oh I see we're talking about different things. You are referring to the HOT lanes and I'm talking about 66 inside the beltway. My problem with both of them is the companies that are allowed to profit from them rather than that money going back to the state.
MR_Se7en@reddit
Like a toll lane?
cbf1232@reddit
A toll lane is presumably still setting the speed limit to the level the road was designed for.
Allowing someone to pay to exceed the design speed of the road is a different beast.
santacruzdude@reddit
Toll lanes work because of congestion pricing. You don’t literally need to allow people to drive with a higher speed limit because the congestion in the regular lanes is what makes the speed difference. If there’s congestion in the toll lane too, it’s a symptom of the lane being underpriced.
Mnm0602@reddit
Everywhere that’s implemented this saw improvement in traffic flow for the people that don’t pay too because selfish people go to the fast toll lanes.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
The cameras will be set to 75 the entire way, they aren't (yet) smart enough to account for reduced speeds.
PFD_2@reddit
Averaging 85 on the highway isnt some crazy madman speed either😭
WorldlyOriginal@reddit
It’s not… until a crash happens— which is what we need to base safety around. The kinetic energy of a crash at 85mph is not just a little bit worse or 30% worse than 65mph, it’s 70% worse.
PFD_2@reddit
Oh BROTHER. 65 mph on the highway? Please just take the train or something 😭😭
objectivePOV@reddit
Do you think driving 85 instead of 65 on a highway gets you somewhere significantly faster? Or do you do it for fun?
Unless you are on a 2000 mile road trip or your starting point and destination are both on the side of a highway, you will not get to your destination significantly faster by driving 20 mph faster.
Most starting points and destinations are not on the side of a highway, so traffic lights, stop signs, other cars, etc. will all slow you down and nullify any time saved on the highway.
Even if your starting point and destination are both on the side of a highway, you save only 4 minutes by driving at 85 instead of 65 for an average 20 mile commute. And you use up a lot more fuel for those 4 minutes.
PFD_2@reddit
Sorry brother but 65 on the highway is uber level speeds
objectivePOV@reddit
You know uber means super
PFD_2@reddit
Referring to the rideshare service, like lyft
Facts_pls@reddit
Speed being dangerous or not depends on the road conditions. Not absolute speed.
So 75 could definitely be a lot in a certain area.
Hell, the same 75 on a residential street in a school zone is dangerous as fuck.
Viperlite@reddit (OP)
The C&D article does mention the 10 mph compliance margin before a fine is assessed.
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
A lot of em are saying that, what they're not really highlighting is that this is a 65mph zone and reduced from the normal 75mph. That's going to get a lot of people I think.
SerialExperimentLean@reddit
Isn't that exactly why it should be there though? You don't want people speeding past construction workers
zxrax@reddit
what about when there's no active construction?
I'm not really against this type of enforcement, to be honest... highways are boring and speeding a bit more on them doesn't improve my driving experience, and this is a much better enforcement mechanism than letting cops profile and selectively enforce. But "it's a construction zone" doesn't really change any of those opinions or make this more okay if you weren't okay with it in the first place.
SerialExperimentLean@reddit
Then the limit would go back up. I was only disagreeing with the argument that this is bad because people would be caught out by the lower speed limit
spooksmagee@reddit
Lowering speeds through a work zone isn't "nefarious" it's basic safety for both the people working in it, and those driving through it.
Alabatman@reddit
Unless it's Alabama where 50+ miles are "construction zones" without signage, work, markings if any kind. They've been doing that for decades to generate revenue off the interstates.
scroopydog@reddit
Exactly. What a twisted take. Someone died on I-25 northbound near Greenwood Village on Easter morning.
Tiny-Art7074@reddit
Enforcing speed limits with a +10mph AVERGE buffer through the entire distance is not nefarious. You have to go 10mph over the entire distance. Just do 8-9 over for a little while and you are fine.
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
You can take 287 the whole way, and depending on traffic, it’s not that much slower.
Facts_pls@reddit
And get asshole speeders off the highway? Sounds like a win
yyytobyyy@reddit
Waze will also tell you start and the end of the measured stretch, show a warning and your progress through that stretch.
We've had those for more than a decade.
r34p3rex@reddit
"Slow down and park here for 5 seconds to not get a fine"
crunch816@reddit
Sounds like Beerio Kart irl
runway31@reddit
Would be sweet if it showed you an average speed in that zone of the cameras, so you can slow down as needed
psaux_grep@reddit
TomTom tracks your average speed between the cameras (if they’re added correctly to the map). So does Tesla’s navigation.
AndrewCoja@reddit
Can't wait for all the crashes as people are slowing down and looking at their navigation to try to get their speed down.
Dr__Nick@reddit
This sort of time trial was actually a form of rallying on public roads in mid 20th century in Europe. I wonder if they still do it there. I guess they do now, thanks to speed cameras.
degggendorf@reddit
Wasn't that with paper toll receipts and not average speed cameras?
Dr__Nick@reddit
Probably. And you’d have a very accurate clock in the car and your goals was to get to the checkpoint before your time, wait and head through the check exactly on time.
lilleulv@reddit
Det you cruise control to a maximum of 10 mph over the speed limit. This potential fine isn’t difficult to avoid.
wwwhatisgoingon@reddit
I drove through like 9 average speed zones last weekend in the UK.
Guess how many times the scenario you suggested happened? Zero. Knowing how fast you're going isn't hard and the average speed zones here are have clear signage.
I'm not trying to be rude, it's just these zones exist in many countries and they work completely fine.
AndrewCoja@reddit
This is America, Buddy. People are dumb as hell here.
Global_Chair9652@reddit
How hard would it be tho to jam it since it’s stationary
simeddit@reddit
This is the same kind of draconian horseshit they do over in Australia
RBR927@reddit
“Would you like to save 2.5 seconds on your route? All you have to do is make an unprotected left turn across 16 lanes of traffic!”
SonnySwanson@reddit
Have these been challenged in court like the red light cameras?
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Wait how the fuck did you challenge a red light camera in court and win
SonnySwanson@reddit
Most times they are completely unenforceable because the law requires an officer of the law to witness an infraction.
https://www.autoblog.com/news/judge-says-red-light-camera-tickets-may-be-unconstitutional
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Damn that's crazy
Seawolf4@reddit
It needs to be outright outlawed. This is how you get a surveillance state.
halo364@reddit
Dude average speed cameras have been a thing for decades now lol
by_a_pyre_light@reddit
Not in America
ukemike1@reddit
Dude. We are DEEPLY into a surveillance state. A handful of speed cameras is just a drop in the bucket. The main application for AI will be to sort through all the surveillance data they are already collecting.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
I'm generally pretty lenient on articles for being blatantly American-biased because they're usually churned out for exactly that audience, and you can't blame them for only considering the largest English speaking country in the world.
But you'd really expect a high quality writing team like C&D are meant to have to be capable of asking a single person in another country what they look like on Waze. No, it can still detect them. So can a radar detector.
aquintana@reddit
Just stop speeding people. I drove three hours today in Texas and left the office at the same time as my colleague (we took different cars because neither of us was going back to the office afterwards). I arrived exactly one minute later than them while I leisurely drove the speed limit (in the right lane) the entire time, while they were speeding every chance they could. Speeding is pointless, dangerous, and stressful.
iampg@reddit
Average speed zones are common in Italy. Waze will still tell you about them, but so will the signs - they're not surreptitious at all. They're well known and they work because if your average speed for the zone (as long as 20km) is much higher than the speed limit you get a ticket by mail!
shamiltheghost@reddit
Tax on the less fortunate
lurked_4_a_bit@reddit
Great just what we need, let’s not make the roads safer by actually paving and maintaining them properly. Instead let’s just extort the public for minding their business and not hitting anything.
Cxrs14@reddit
If it's anything like Flock cameras(which it probably is) then plate or no plate, they'll still know who you are and who's driving either way.
hughcifer-106103@reddit
How does flock know who your are or who’s driving without plates? My understanding is their systems is functionally a plate reader system.
tardersos@reddit
It recognizes vehicles by more than plate alone; distinguishing features like stickers, damage, and modifications are all things they can use to identify a vehicle.
These cameras have facial recognition as well. Flock denies it now, but it used to be stated on their website.
SporeRanier@reddit
Guess it’s time to wear a mask while driving like those street racers in Japan do.
Cxrs14@reddit
It sadly won't matter. The cameras have the ability to recognize scratches on cars, a mask will do absolutely nothing to stop it from identifying a driver based on facial features not obscured by the mask. But don't worry, it's not overreach, it's safety /s
SporeRanier@reddit
Oh I’m not talking about Covid masks, I’m talking about full face Jason Voorhees style masks. At least that’s what I gathered from a Donut video i watched about it.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
To be honestly, you can see riders with mask in America, it isn't only case in Bosozoku.
Cxrs14@reddit
Huh, never thought about those. It might work, but I imagine height, build, hair, and ears would still be enough for modern recognition to be positive enough for it to work. These companies don't make money by not being able to track everyone and everything, so I imagine they've tested for that kind of thing and have other identifiers they use.
lemlurker@reddit
We've had average speed check cameras in the UK for yonks. Interestingly they're not popular with local authorities because they're a worse money-spinner than a snapshot camera because fewer people speed for a while average than an instandateous flash. They're also well signposted with lots of reminders and big yellow camera gantries. The requirement to be really booking it to trigger DND that ALL traffic slows consummately results in fewer speeding offences commited which means less fines. But certainly more consistent speeds. Being average you also lack the braking for camera effect from causing traffic and they usually flow pretty well.
Poodleape2@reddit
Cannot be out smarted? Can the be destroyed or have their screen covered?
Teknicsrx7@reddit
How is it legal to fine the car owner, never prove who’s driving and don’t penalize them at all?
cbf1232@reddit
Why wouldn't it be legal? The car was speeding, so make the registered owner of the car responsible for any fines unless the car was reported stolen. Presumably the owner knows who was actually driving and can then extract the money from the actual driver if it wasn't them.
BillyJohnsFinds@reddit
I let my friend borrow my gun to take to the shooting range, but he actually took it and shot his neighbor. But it’s my fault because it was my gun! Yeah that doesn’t make sense.
zxrax@reddit
Actually that kind of makes sense, you shouldn't be lending your gun to your unstable friends. 100% your fault? No, but definitely not zero percent either.
I guess you don't think parents of school shooters should be held liable either?
BillyJohnsFinds@reddit
I don’t think the parents of school shooters should be held liable to murder, which is what the equivalent of this speeding camera ticket is as it doesn’t take the actual driver into consideration at all.
zxrax@reddit
A jury disagrees with you.
Crapitron@reddit
Extremely funny how you’re downvoted for the truth. Once again, Reddit, especially r/cars, is out of touch with reality.
cbf1232@reddit
We assign parking tickets to vehicles rather than people under the doctrine of vicarious liability, why not speeding tickets?
hatchbacks@reddit
That’s just not legally how it works
toppig@reddit
Isn't it exactly how parking tickets work?
dantose@reddit
I can't find any SCOTUS decision that addresses this, but 7th circuit ruled on something applicable:
IDRIS v. CITY OF CHICAGO ILLINOIS:
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/us-7th-circuit/1118906.html
This need not mean that the owner bears the economic loss; an owner can insist that the driver reimburse the outlay if he wants to use the car again (or maintain the friendship). Legal systems often achieve deterrence by imposing fines or penalties without fault.
While we're all free to debate about what the law should be online, to change what the law is or how it's enforced would need an actual court challenge and convincing a judge to overturn that precedent.
EdgarsRavens@reddit
You constantly here stories about how law enforcement claims they can't ticket drivers for infractions caught on camera because "they aren't there and don't know who is driving" but apparently speed cameras capture enough evidence to do this?
Captain_Alaska@reddit
Here in ny part of the world it just gets sent to the registered owner and then you can nominate another driver if you weren’t driving.
backyardengr@reddit
It’s not. It’s a shameless cash grab. Some people must’ve got a nice vacation to sell out the general populace over this nonsense
Teknicsrx7@reddit
Gotta be a lawyer waiting around for this kind of case
DarkMatterM4@reddit
Unfortunately, the system is specifically designed to make it more expensive and more inconvenient to fight the ticket than it is to pay the fine. You'll beat this ticket every time by showing up to court but then you have to take the day off work, drive to the court house, etc.
Teknicsrx7@reddit
I meant challenging this procedure not just fighting a ticket
withoutapaddle@reddit
Yeah, you have the right to fight it, so who shows up to court? The car and the camera?
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mrcanoehead2@reddit
Portugal has these on some highways. They mostly use them on section before a city to ensure traffic slows to maintain safety.( From what I observed)
TheKobayashiMoron@reddit
Yeah I think it’s pretty obvious if you cover 100 miles in an hour, you were going at least 100 mph average. Can’t out-math math.
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
What if you did the Kessel Run in less than 22 parsecs eh...
S p a c e t I m e bending
TheKobayashiMoron@reddit
You’re barking up the wrong franchise
BRICH999@reddit
Depends on the math they use and accuracy of info. Say they round numbers to the closest minute and have two detection points 3 miles apart on a 60mph road. If you passed the first at 12:00:31 and the second at 12:03:29, and it rounded to 12:01 and 12:03, would think you averaged 90mph when you really did 60mph.
This would be dumb, but I wouldnt put it past government to do dumb.
jesusrambo@reddit
Obviously it would not work like this
It would also suck if it reached out a little stick and poked you in the eye as you drove past
nsfdrag@reddit
Lmao and now I'm getting looks by people wondering what I'm laughing at.
BRICH999@reddit
You all think it's far fetched, but a lot of traffic cameras were programmed to fine drivers making legal right turns on red after coming to a stop. They got that sorted but not before issuing thousands of tickets. Tech is only as good as the person programming it.
Pixelplanet5@reddit
and this is also a very fair way to control the speed of people as you can absolutely go a little over the speedlimit to overtake someone as long as you make sure to not be over the limit on average.
hawkeyes007@reddit
This is actually incredibly creepy and invasive. There is no reason to watch and record everyone in the general public
TheKobayashiMoron@reddit
I mean, they’re already doing that and have been for a long time. Even toll roads already have the technology to implement this. The times you pass through two sets of tolls is recorded. The distance between them is fixed.
8N-QTTRO@reddit
And if they're smart, they'll primarily track outliers compared to average speed so "normal" drivers don't get penalized for keeping up with the speed of traffic.
StrangeSmellz@reddit
what if i just pass one camera, wait 15mins and they do a landspeed record to the 2nd?
Ancient_Wisdom_Yall@reddit
Totally fine
diethyl2o@reddit
As long as you take frequent bathroom breaks… you can speed all you want. Brilliant!
cilantno@reddit
People do that in the UK per the other thread on this recent CO implementation.
trail-g62Bim@reddit
That sounds like a lot of effort that few people will ever want to do. But this isn't the first place something like this has been done, so it should be fairly easy to find out if that is something people did in response.
Also, running without plates seems like something that will get you pulled over faster than speeding.
salmonstamp@reddit
You haven’t spent much time in Denver. No plates or expired temp plates are extremely common and enforcement is basically limited to a handful of pre-announced “crackdown” weekends by local law enforcement
dirtymonkey@reddit
This guy needs to spend a day on the Denver subreddit if he thinks people here are getting pulled over for missing plates.
WaffleHouseFistFight@reddit
Ngl I drove around Denver for 2 years with expired tags and got 1 warning once.
Domojin@reddit
Same in Vegas. If your tags are expired, you'll get pulled over by every cop that sees you. But missing plates, or paper dealer 'plates' that expired months or years ago? Totally fine.
dirtymonkey@reddit
I want to say we don't even allow for people to get pulled over for missing plates / registration. The guy I replied to mentioned the "crackdown" weekends. Those are maybe the only time you have to worry.
They didn't even mail me a license plate for the first year I had my RS3 and I just drove around without a license plate. Never was a problem.
jakinatorctc@reddit
In the NYC metro you would be shocked how many people have license plate covers, intentionally obscure theirs by scraping off the paint, or run entirely fake temp plates ever since they increased camera enforcement for speeding, bus lane infringements, and toll. It’s created an entirely new (and imo worse) problem
The_Bucket_Of_Truth@reddit
They make products that can obscure the plate with the press of a button. It's illegal to run anything like this that obscures your plate in part or whole, but they exist.
ContextOfAbuse@reddit
Don’t even need the fancy ones with buttons. (And note the date of this post, too) https://www.reddit.com/r/redneckengineering/comments/za2s1i/think_they_sell_those_at_hobby_lobby_or_michaels/
The_Bucket_Of_Truth@reddit
lol that's for only specific regions at a specific time of year for it to be believable, but I like the simplicity.
Gaveltime@reddit
It’s incredibly low effort and cheap to do.
moonRekt@reddit
Taking off your plates is easy. People who drive buzzed etc are obviously not great candidates as you can get pulled over any time but it’s cheaper than registration. Keep insurance though
localtuned@reddit
The ticket is cheaper than speeding..IF you get stopped.
luckystrike_bh@reddit
Whatever happened to confronting your accuser in court? Hard to interrogate a camera.
Vic_Vega_MrB@reddit
Get some "specially equipped" cheap throwaway drones And destroy these cameras.
_2ndclasscitizen_@reddit
Waze already notifies of average speed camera zones here in Australia (although it doesn't show your average speed which is annoying).
Drunken_Hamster@reddit
I'm not even 30, and I'm getting into my old man "Government needs to fuck off" phase at an alarmingly QUICK pace.
Evenfisher01@reddit
So you dont speed between the cameras which are in the same place every time
X-e-o@reddit
I've seen these a few times (around Glasgow, Florence, Marseilles, etc.) and frankly prefer them over "traditional" cameras.
Allows you to pass at high speed without risking a fine and you don't get that wave of cars slowing down (and re-accelerating) suddenly right before a trafic camera.
10000Didgeridoos@reddit
10 MPH over the limit buffer seems fair as well.
My only concern is "will this system feed data to the Palantir hive mind of authoritarianism?" much like other camera systems law enforcement uses here that are convenient ways for prosecution to get around the 4th amendment by buying data on people as opposed to needing probable cause to search it.
Time-Maintenance2165@reddit
Sure, that's how it starts. Then the speed gradually gets lowered until its only 1 mph over the limit.
SerialExperimentLean@reddit
What would they be able to get from this that they couldn't get from your phone or waze though, or even just random security cameras?
CorrectCombination11@reddit
If you have a passport, your info is already there.
X-e-o@reddit
Yeah I believe in Europe there was also a significant tolerance (eg; 20km/h).
As far as the Palantir thing well...yeah. That's not much of a r/car thing but rather a r/raboringdystopia kind of issue though.
Yotsubato@reddit
Yes. It absolutely will
jrileyy229@reddit
99.9% of people are not going to stop and take off their license plate... They're just going to set the cruise control at 7mph over the speed limit and go on about their day.
This seems entirely reasonable
backyardengr@reddit
An Orwellian nanny state seems entirely reasonable to you? Grow a spine mate
jrileyy229@reddit
Do you think people should regularly be going more than 10 mph over the speed limit?
backyardengr@reddit
Yes. Modern cars are incredibly safe going 80mph in the straight empty roads outside of Denver.
Do you really think the state should sell out our privacy rights and our 4th, 6th, and 14th amendment rights? Over something as trivial as highway speeding? If the state actually cared about highway safety, they would enforce distracted driving laws already existing as that’s the real issue.
This is NOT about safety, it’s about lining some companies pockets. And that company lobbied the correct people or has friends in high places to get this juicy contract.
jrileyy229@reddit
Cool...what about the person with the 1999 civic on bald tires with wheel bearings about to explode? You think they aren't going to go 85mph as well with everyone else? You're going to rely on them to be smart enough to "know better"that they probably shouldn't? That's not how that works.
So now you really need to implement a yearly inspection to make sure cars are roadworthy to go the speed limit... You do that and you screw over the people a different way. Now everyone has a $150 yearly cost and $50 of that will go to the state and everyone will call it a money grab. You'll have people that will lose their car because it doesn't pass and they don't have money to replace it. They might just drive anyway, so now you need to police valid inspection .. and you're going to do that with cameras. And then you need to find a way to police valid inspections from all the cars from other states.
I see this argument all the time, let's raise speed limits... Well okay, sure... MOST drivers in MOST cars would be fine if the speed limit was raised from 70 to 80... But nobody is going to go 80, they're all now going to go 90. So you give people another ten MPH and then they're just going to want more.
I mean this can go on indefinitely. You can cherry pick examples from both sides of the argument. Ultimately, the speed limit is what it is. If it's 70, then that's what it is.
If the cameras had a zero MPH buffer, I'd be on your side. In much of Europe, they have a 3mph buffer. The fact that they're giving you ten MPH leeway is what I'm saying is reasonable.
Forget the speed limit or the cameras... That's already done. Have 10mph means that nobody is accidentally going to get dinged.
The_Bucket_Of_Truth@reddit
Some of what you're saying isn't true. If the speed limit was 100 mph it wouldn't just mean everyone drives 5-10 mph over the limit comfortably like they do when it's set to 55 or 65. People drive around the limit they feel comfortable and safe. People with cars that are beat to shit where you really feel the speed or have mechanical issues they're worried about will not be super speeding all of a sudden. And if there are a few who do, they're already doing it.
In road design they often set speed limits at the 85th percentile speed meaning the vast majority of drivers are driving at or under that speed. Unfortunately these things have not kept up with the times and so highway limits in many states have not been changed in many years to account for this. Either because of "safety" or because they don't want to give up ticket revenue.
Disclaimer: I'm arguing this from the standpoint of highways and it should not be interpreted as me advocating for higher speed limits in urban areas which is an entirely different issue when it comes to road design, pedestrian and cyclist safety, noise, etc.
jrileyy229@reddit
Sure... And I'm all for the speed limits being raised on highways... And partly just trying to be objective... Understand there are hurdles to overcome. Revenue for sure is one. Keeping people from doing dumb stuff is another.
I don't know that I share your Outlook on how people will drive. If the speed limit is 70, pretty much everyone in the right lane is going 70. It's very rare that you'd see someone doing 60mph in a 70mph zone... And if you did that is not a good thing... causes a lot more potential wrecks... Because the entirety of the right lane has to now change lanes.
If you make the speed limit 80, now you have someone going 60, many people going 80 are now merging into left lanes in between people going 90 in that lane and there are a lot of giant metal boxes with huge speed disparities all on the same 2 or 3 lane road.
The_Bucket_Of_Truth@reddit
Speed differentials are dangerous and some people will always speed regardless of the limit (though this is likely very few people), but there are also other people who are just rule followers who will just drive exactly the speed limit. So going from 65 to 70 they will just up their speed to 70 which could actually cause less speed differential issues. Again this is why they do road studies and set a limit based on real life data... or at least they once did. One huge issue in the U.S. is poor driver's education and so people have awful lane discipline. People should not be camped in the left lane going the speed limit or under because then faster cars will have to pass them on the right. But if people have good lane discipline there is less of a problem. There will always be a few people going 60 who have just merged or are preparing to exit for example. But they should not threaten anyone going faster because they will be lanes over.
jrileyy229@reddit
Well, if you want to discuss what people "should" do, they should all be driving at the speed limit....because it's not a suggestion, it's a limit. Or, they are not required to use that road at all.
We know that's not realistic... Upping the speed limit will help us all get places in less time, but will not close the speed delta, it will increase them.
If it goes from 65 to 70, all the people who used to go 75 will now go 80. People who used to go 80 will go 85. So for the majority of traffic ,the Delta isn't going to change, the status quo will maintain.
But the slower cars doing 60 will have even bigger deltas. The deltas for merge points will be higher. And let's keep in mind stopping distance is not linear... It's exponential, but approximately 2:1 in real world speeds. Increasing highway speed limit by 10% increases stopping distance by 20%. Now nobody should ever be stopping on the highway, but the distance to slow to say 50mph from 65 is drastically less than from 75
The_Bucket_Of_Truth@reddit
You reiterated the same thing about if they raise the speed limit everyone will just go exactly the same amount faster, but I don't think the data actually bears that out. Again, I support traffic studies that set speed limits for highways based on how most people actually drive. If your point is that you want to keep highway speed limits artificially low for safety reasons then I guess go off, but I don't agree. That will just mean over half of people are "speeding" when traffic is light. Does that mean they're all bad people or maniacs or driving unsafely or does it mean that the speed limit should go up? Are you factoring in that stopping distances for cars on average have dome down over the years?
DarkMatterM4@reddit
You and I both know that this has nothing to do with safety or making sure people's cars are well maintained. Let's not bullshit ourselves. This is 100% a money-making scheme for the state and the private corporation that's running the cameras. Period. Our only hope is that this is all it ends up being used for.
jrileyy229@reddit
Again, on the surface, this isn't a money grab targeting the general public... This is more of a tax on super speeders. You, me, we may not like the speed limit, but it is what it is. Forget the fact that we don't like it.
It seems to me being truly objective here, they have made every possible concession NOT to be nailing "innocent" people.
-You have giant signs telling you it's coming -it is NOT an instant reading... It's an average over a distance .. so if you blow through the entry at 90, you just need to slow down for a while and you won't get a ticket -you get a ten mph buffer in addition to the averaging mentioned above -it's only $75. Never got a ticket in Colorado but in every other state where I have it's been way more than that.
So just about the only way you're getting dinged here is if you say F*ck it
DarkMatterM4@reddit
The problem is there is nothing stopping them from lowering the buffer to not get cited after a year or two. These programs need to start out as painless as possible in order not to get the public too worked up. Otherwise, tax payers will reject it outright. Because the cameras are maintained and managed by a private corporation, there is no need for them to go through any judicial channels in order to lower that buffer from 10MPH to, let's say 5MPH. Once the systems and infrastructure is in place, they can do whatever they want.
backyardengr@reddit
I don’t care to forfeit my 4th, 6th, and 14th constitutional rights on the off chance someone with a clapped out Honda civic gets a $75 ticket. With that money going to a Palantir type private company that’s trampling over all of our rights, rather than back into road maintenance. Which won’t change their behavior anyways.
We don’t need yearly inspections or any of that. You are mistaken for looking to the State to increase the safety in your life.
pinkbunnay@reddit
The actual reason: It's not even legal and you can throw away the ticket. CO's been pulling this shit for years.
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
Incorrect. SB23-200 made mailed tickets legally enforceable.
pinkbunnay@reddit
Long before that they were still doing this shit and violating your rights. Just because they pass a law to collect more money doesn't make it right. I hope someday this makes it higher than the district court and we get a ruling to enjoin these.
CallLivesMatter@reddit
They have this neat little thing in Ohio where they send you a speed camera ticket, you throw it away, they send you a few notices, you throw those away as well, then they give up. It’s a revenue model that is entirely voluntary and relies on people not knowing thy don’t have to pay.
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
The Colorado legislature pass a law in June 2023 that mailed camera tickets are legally enforceable.
CallLivesMatter@reddit
Ohio did one better. Many municipalities sold their rights to camera ticketing revenue to third party companies. Once the money incentive went away local PDs were not all that enthusiastic about fighting the courts to argue that the tickets were valid, so now some random companies own a bunch of uncollectible assets all throughout the state.
Viperlite@reddit (OP)
In PA, there’s a constantly recurring phishing text scam that indicates you owe the state for back tolls and need to click a link to pay. So, naturally a real letter that like would lend the appearance of a scam and end up immediately in the round file.
CallLivesMatter@reddit
Yeah I’ve gotten a few of those sort of scams as well. Also it turns out my Ohio business license needs to be renewed (I have neither a business nor a license for it).
Viperlite@reddit (OP)
“Colorado DOT says most of the revenue collected goes back into funding the Speed Enforcement Program.”
localtuned@reddit
"most" but not an exact percentage.
EdgarsRavens@reddit
Who wants to place bets? I'm thinking 51% Speed Enforcement Program and 49% Camera Operator.
Immynimmy@reddit
Ah a self sustaining economy. Wonder if they’re getting paid in Paddy‘s dollars.
DarkMatterM4@reddit
Keeping the money moving.
6158675309@reddit
So, the revenue split is >50% with the camera operator :-)
dantose@reddit
As someone who's lived in places that use average speed cameras, there's actually a really clever way to use waze to outsmart such cameras:
Step 1: Run waze, so it can warn you when an average speed camera is coming.
Step 2: Go the speed limit for that stretch.
Step 3: There is no step 3.
When I suggest not-speeding as a method of avoiding speeding tickets, I usually catch down votes, so go ahead and take my internet points now.
SporeRanier@reddit
Speed cameras are the work of the devil
Th3WeirdingWay@reddit
You get what you vote for. The end
Crewstage8387@reddit
Waze will just alert you that the camera is there. If they rewrite the program they can just say speed camera next 5 miles
iroll20s@reddit
Waze could also easily calculate your average speed in the area and display it for you. That way you could maximized the 10mph wiggle room.
ByCromThatsAHotTake@reddit
But can the cameras be outsmarted by a pellet gun or 22lr?
Viperlite@reddit (OP)
You’d have to hit them from their blind side, so I wouldn’t recommend it in a moving car in their frame of camera view.
iroll20s@reddit
You just have to be driving fast enough that it can't capture your plate. (or be smart and remove the front plate at least.)
ByCromThatsAHotTake@reddit
Well of course, this would be something for a disgruntled local who knows the area to do.
eight47pm@reddit
Waze will warn you of their locations, we have them running from my town to our capital, they’re a complete pain but I see why they’re needed as that road is bad for speeders and a very busy route
popsicle_of_meat@reddit
So, in WA state, around my area, we have red light cameras. However, they are by an outside 3rd party and are apparently not a legally binding fine. They can't be enforced.
If these cameras are the same way, not enforced by the judicial system because they don't know who was actually driving, why even pay them at all? The whole point is it's the DRIVER running lights and speeding. And to catch the DRIVER you need verification of identity.
Look, I'm all for people breaking laws to be pulled over and ticketed. It's easy to not speed. But the person needs to be caught in the act. Not this plate-reading BS.
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
This is not the case in CO
TheDuckFarm@reddit
How do fine the car owner? Cars are owned by all kinds of entities like corporations and trusts. Lots of people don’t own the car they drive.
xNinjaN8x@reddit
Bring back flip up plates!
Viperlite@reddit (OP)
“Mr Bond, your car is ready.”
xNinjaN8x@reddit
Thank you Q
Viperlite@reddit (OP)
“Do try to bring it back in one piece.”
vaultdweller1223@reddit
Colorado will try anything to generate tax revenue besides raising property taxes. I paid 6k to registers a used car there. Joke of a state.
Gaveltime@reddit
The police state hates this one trick: A fake leaf glued to a magnet.
Viperlite@reddit (OP)
Just dip a real one in mud and slap it over a couple of plate letters, making sure to use a lead from a native species of tree, like say an Aspen.
GeoffreyDaGiraffe@reddit
Lots and lots of copper out there
Viperlite@reddit (OP)
Like a whole mountain of it.
Firstbaser@reddit
I bet a good laser could do something to the cameras
ssxhoell1@reddit
You would be correct
Viperlite@reddit (OP)
I always worry that this kind of average speed enforcement will spread to EZ Pass style toll collection. They have your entry and exit points on toll roads down to the second, with driver photos at both points to go with it. They say it won’t be used for other purposes, but I’m not reassured.
BetterThanAFoon@reddit
When I lived in Japan they did exactly this. If you got on the expressway and exited at a time shorter interval that would indicate you were averaging above the speed limit you would get a ticket mail to you.
A lot of people loved raising on that expressway. So they would pull over and wait a few minutes before exiting when they were done.
machosalad06@reddit
This is already something they can do on the NJ Turnpike
VF43NYC@reddit
This is just another revenue collection method. Like most traffic enforcement.
I do not like how comfortable some people are with constant surveillance. The people collecting this information are more nefarious than the people speeding
pablxo@reddit
Colorado more like COMMIERADO
KeepersDiary@reddit
Would be a shame if they all got damaged.
StandupJetskier@reddit
A bad idea from the UK here.....
Captain_Pink_Pants@reddit
The auto-tickets are so cheap, I don't really care. I got photo'd doing 52 in a 35 one night... It was $40, payable online. For $40, I don't mind ignoring it until one pops up on my daily route. 🤷
CTMechE@reddit
The NJ turnpike did this via EZ pass many years ago.
The best solution was to stop for gas/bathrooms at one of the rest stops.
EpicHuggles@reddit
What are they doing to not only provide proof beyond a reasonable doubt that they are fining the correct person, but also protecting people's rights to face their accuser? In this case would the accuser not be an inanimate object?
gezpachu@reddit
look forward to seeing creative solutions that rotate or hide plates to fight this dystopian bullshit
Tourettesmexchanic@reddit
Electrochromic cover with a hidden switch
simeddit@reddit
This is the same kind of draconian horseshit they do over in Australia
-hh@reddit
Let’s check back in ~6 months and see how many officers … including those in patrol cars (lights off) … actually end up paying tickets.
spooksmagee@reddit
I find it highly ironic the people complaining about a "surveillance state" with these cameras very likely typed that inane response from a handheld device that has already been proven to scrape your personal data for private companies.
Like guys, all of our data is already compromised unless you're a Luddite who lives in the woods.
High speeds are one of the top contributing factors to crashes that cause serious injury and deaths. At least these speed cameras will reduce harm. They really do slow people down and curb fatal crashes.
And if you're so concerned with privacy, laws can be changed, work with your local elected representatives to bake in privacy laws to these systems.
CortaCircuit@reddit
I can't believe how easily the public goes along with surveillance. It's sickening.
bebemaster@reddit
Seems like a business opportunity to set up convenience stores...
"Average Joe's" with the tag line "Stop now save later"
gnartung@reddit
Waze should implement an indicator that shows your current average speed since the previous camera.
BigBrainMonkey@reddit
You know this one trick, I just set cruise control at the speed limit?
Farking_Bastage@reddit
Things like this are test runs for rolling out similar systems on all stretches of highways, I think. I get enabling stuff like this in school/work zones, but it's a slippery slope to auto-ticket detectors on all highways.
This concerns me.
Scazitar@reddit
Fuck speed cameras.
hpshaft@reddit
Someone will figure out how to obscure plates or numbers to avoid this.
Viperlite@reddit (OP)
They already do just that to avoid electronic tolling and speed cameras.
TweeksTurbos@reddit
So its like the timing lines in PA slow down inbetween.
Viperlite@reddit (OP)
That kind of negates the hurry-up reason for speeding in the first place, LOL.
dropinbombz@reddit
Would flip up lisc plates work?
Viperlite@reddit (OP)
Even a smear of grease over a letter or two would work. A folded plate corner. A piece of tape making a zero look like an 8. A leaf taped over a letter. Or sadly, the sovereign citizen plates. I feel like I’ve seen all the obfuscation tricks in East Coast cities.
Kortok2012@reddit
So it’s pay to play? Sometimes I’m just running late, what’s the max fine
Viperlite@reddit (OP)
Violators face a $75 fine mailed to their registered address, with no points added to their license.
FrostyFire@reddit
“Vehicles without plates can avoid fines.” Alright, plate flipper it is.
hurdeehurr@reddit
That's cool.. Just stare at your speedometer or set your cruise control and not pay attention so you can go the speed limit. Some people's brains can't operate slow enough to match the rest of you and still pay attention.
FormulaJAZ@reddit
Traffic has gotten so bad in Denver that I'd be thrilled if I could simply go the speed limit on the highways.
MembershipNo2077@reddit
They'll also probably save you car information to the creepy flock servers or whatever that tracks Americans for totally benevolent purposes.